The Twenty-Two Year Gap Between Abstinence and Sobriety — Julie H.

Welcome back, my friends, to the AA Recovery Interviews Podcast.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic, sober since January 1st, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where AA members share their extraordinary stories of experience, strength, and hope.
My guest on today's show is Julie H., a woman whom I've known for many years through a variety of meetings we've attended.
As is often the case in many AA friendships, my knowledge of Julie's story was limited to her brief shares and a little chit-chat after the meetings.
For better or worse, I assume that her 38-plus years of sobriety were indicative of a consistent participation in the AA program.
However, when I interviewed her, I was surprised to find out that,
after initially getting sober, she had spent more than 22 of those 38 years only marginally involved in AA, or sometimes not at all.
Her infrequent interaction with the program, plus self-will, were enough to keep her dry.
So, dry-ity, a friend of mine calls it.
But the happiness and enrichment of contented sobriety through AA eluded her.
Unhappy yet dry, Julie came to the higher-powered realization that she needed AA on a regular basis
if she was ever going to be able to do it.
If she was ever going to be able to really enjoy her life.
As a result, she re-engaged with the program through regular meeting attendance, sponsorship, book studies, and daily service work.
Her renewed commitment to AA and the fellowship have helped Julie build a life of contented sobriety.
Julie's story is especially important for anyone who has ever contemplated getting sober in AA
than disengaging after a period of time to just stay dry.
The big book is chock-full of stories of people who left the program,
and stayed dry.
Their dry-ologues are tales of eventually getting drunk,
or living dry, desperate lives of discontentment and loneliness.
But for many of them, like Julie, returning to the rooms and the program
restored the key to many doors of contentment in sobriety and enjoyment of everyday life.
I'm beholden to Julie for bringing us her unique story.
It's one that both active and non-active members need to hear and share with others.
It shows what life can be like if we let up on AA's vigorous program of action.
So please, invite a friend to join you for the next hour
as you listen to the vital words of my friend and AA sister, Julie H.
I'm Julie, and I'm a recovering alcoholic.
Thank you so much for doing this today, Julie.
I'm so glad that you accepted my offer to appear on the AA Recovery Interviews podcast.
I've listened to you for years.
And me, too.
I've listened to you for years.
And hadn't seen you until just recently.
You've been sober a long time.
What's your original sobriety day?
It is February 11th, 1983.
So you're coming up on 39 years?
Miraculous.
Does it seem like it's gone by really quickly?
Yes.
The minutes, the days, the minutes sometimes have been slow.
But the fact that it's so many days is just amazing.
Well, you know what's amazing, too, is that you and I just came out of a meeting
that the topic was gratitude.
And we're, as we record this, we're in Thanksgiving week.
And I really appreciated what you said about your gratitude with regard to your family.
And when you were actively drinking, did you have a level of gratitude at that time,
or was it different than it is today?
Never thought about it.
Never thought about the word.
Really?
I knew the word, but I never thought about the word.
Everything was up to me.
And I just wanted to be happy.
So you were running your own show, so to speak.
How did that work out for you?
It just kept getting worse and worse and worse.
I didn't realize that at all.
But I thought I was smart.
I thought I was sophisticated at the time.
I thought I was educated.
So...
And I never heard of...
Humility as a virtue.
I didn't know about virtue.
I didn't know virtues.
I didn't know about humility.
I had no idea.
I was clueless.
But I'd been drinking since college and thought my life was normal.
Yeah, isn't it something how...
And that's how it was for me, too.
I started really drinking when I was in college.
And it seemed like all of the things that I could have learned that would have been so important
that I eventually learned as a member of AA, I didn't learn.
Because I was drinking and smoking pot during college.
What brought you to your first drink?
Is there alcoholism in your family of origin?
Is there anything that would have predicted that you would have a problem with alcohol?
I didn't think so.
I wouldn't have thought so.
I thought my family was normal.
My mother did complain about my dad's drinking often, that he would drink before dinner.
Then I remember sitting at the dinner.
I was sitting at the dinner table and hearing her berate him for drinking now, after dinner.
I could not see any reason to be complaining.
She just berated him for that.
She complained a lot.
What was his response when she would complain about his drinking?
Nothing.
No response.
He was still at the bar, boring himself in a drink.
When you were a kid, did you see your dad drunk on occasion?
Never.
Never?
Didn't know about it.
Didn't know that he ever was drunk.
But I was the oldest.
Of how many?
Three.
Three.
And I knew everything.
So you were the one who was expected to already know the things that you didn't know because you were the oldest.
I heard, you should have known better, Julie, a lot.
And I didn't.
I thought, I remember going, oh, how could I know better?
And I didn't, you know.
I was, why didn't, I didn't, I was, I was absolutely thought I was clueless.
Did anyone in your immediate family or extended family ever sit you down or in conversation,
engage with you about drinking or getting drunk or alcoholism or any of that?
Never.
Huh.
A number of my guests on the podcast have come from that kind of upbringing.
And it's always amazed me that, because I had a very difficult childhood,
in my family of origin, and there's a tendency to want to think everybody's childhood was like that.
How would you sum up your childhood?
In looking back, I would say that I had to take care of my mother's anger
because I was afraid she would leave the family and then what would happen to me.
And I got that somewhere way back when, when I was little, apparently.
I just, I just vaguely remember something about being a toddler.
And my mom was crying in the kitchen.
And my dad came in the door and said, oh, why are you crying?
And she was, obviously, I didn't understand why, but, and he turned and looked at me and said,
and I was the oldest, of course, and said, oh, but how can you be something like that?
I remember this gesture.
And she continued to cry.
And I thought, oh, I don't, you know.
It's tough to know when you're a toddler.
For some reason.
That's what I remember.
Yeah.
And so I knew my mom was unhappy.
So if she left and I wasn't enough to keep her there, or I wasn't enough to keep her happy or whatever.
Yeah, I understand.
Is that akin to fear of abandonment?
Yeah.
But if she had abandoned the family and took you with her, would that have been okay with you?
Or you wanted the family to stay together with her in it?
Oh, I didn't ever think that she would take me with her.
She was very unhappy.
And she used to say a lot, I wish I'd never had children.
I wish I'd just never had children.
So she had two more children after me.
It's not conscience, but it's in me that I was in charge of trying to keep them from a disturbing mom.
Yeah.
How much older were you than your siblings?
Just two and a half years older than my sister and six years older than my brother.
Okay.
So they were looking to you for direction and how to feel about what was going on in the home.
Do you remember?
Do you remember how you felt the very first time you contemplated the statement, I wish I'd never had children?
I don't know that I ever contemplated it until after she died.
And I remember her being 80-something years old and saying that.
And I got mad and didn't say anything to her.
After she died, I just remember knowing, there was a knowing that came to me that she didn't mean what she said.
That she just didn't know how to handle children.
So she said that with thinking, I'm sure.
But that gave me great, and does give me great peace.
Yeah.
That she just, because I did hear her once say the best time for motherhood for her was when the children were all little.
Uh-huh.
And I was shocked when she said that because I thought it was.
So the children were the bane of her existence.
Well, and her husband.
And your dad.
Uh-huh.
He didn't act the way she wanted him to act all the time.
Were there things that you did from the time you were a kid to, let's say, in high school that you can look back on now and say,
that's probably what led me to whatever behavior either preceded the alcohol or the alcohol itself?
I was the oldest.
Uh-huh.
So I was right.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
That's tough.
But I knew how to act like I was a nice person.
I remember a carpool mother saying one time about a dear friend who was getting out of the carpool car and walking back to her house.
And she said, oh, that little girl is the sweetest little girl.
And I thought, well, I want to be the sweetest little girl.
Mm-hmm.
And I was, I didn't know what made her sweet and me not.
Or I assumed that meant I was not.
And every now and then people would say, she's such a sweet girl about me.
And I'd go, ma'am, I had no clue about who I was.
Yeah, because you had no basis for what sweetness or goodness was at that point, did you?
And my mother, I think, lashed out a lot at my sister.
So I thought that was OK.
So I did that.
So your sister really got the brunt.
Yeah.
Did you take that same bossy attitude outside of the house?
Were you that way in your social interactions at school?
In other words, did the behavior at home follow you into other settings, or was it just there?
Just there.
I was quiet and shy in school.
And about the 10th grade, I think boys began to notice me.
And I liked that.
I think children growing up without validation of who you are or what you're good at or gifts you have, in my case anyway,
I've just loved any kind of validation.
I got, and I apparently cut my hair and looked better or something, and I was growing up and boys started to notice me.
And I went to a very small school, so I was part of a class, and I was not part of the in group, but I wasn't in the out group, and I was just in the middle.
Somewhere in the middle.
Uh-huh.
And then, but it was exciting, all of this was exciting.
And smoking, you know, I remember.
So you were about 15, 16 at this point, huh?
Uh-huh.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And smoking was fun.
Mm-hmm.
And it was against the rules, although my mother smoked, but we never talked about anything, never talked about any of that.
And then senior year, there was a girls' slumber party, and somebody had a lot of beer.
Mm.
And I'll never forget.
Mm-hmm.
Having a few sips of that, and this calm just came over me.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't have to be, I did not have to be in charge.
Mm-hmm.
I did not have to be alert.
This was fun.
And, but I didn't seek it out again.
Another time, my senior year in high school, girls did something like that, and we just laughed about it.
Mm-hmm.
And how smart we were, but we were drunk.
And then I went off to college, away from my parents.
Yeah.
Away, I felt so free, and away from a boyfriend who was very, he hovered over me.
Possessive.
He was very jealous, very possessive.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Very possessive.
Mm-hmm.
And I just thought .
Went to a girls' college, and in Virginia, so it was out of state, and there were all these girls' colleges in an area, and all these boys' colleges and universities.
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
All the time, and you didn't see the same people all the time.
You just, wonderful anonymity.
What I know about boys' and girls' colleges are that the groups being kept apart from each other, when they do get together, things are even wilder than they might be at a co-ed school.
Probably so.
Yeah.
Because in a co-ed school, you'd see people again.
Yeah.
It seemed to me.
And here, you didn't always.
I remember somebody came over from the boys' school and picked up a girl.
Yeah.
I remember somebody came over from the boys' school and picked up a group of gals, and we went over there for a party, and we'd get off the bus, and they'd be saying, what's your name?
Okay, we put you with Joe over here for a date.
And so, you know, we'd be Joe and Julie.
You had your dates assigned to you?
This was for freshman year.
Freshman year.
And a freshman.
Okay.
I can't remember the term now, but it was a freshman gig for the new boys in these fraternities, and for us.
And my date told me later, the end of the day, that so-and-so got the dog of the night award for his date.
And I thought, they talk about girls like that?
Oh, how awful.
I was very naive.
I grew up in a very sheltered place, community, and didn't know anything, wasn't exposed to anything.
Did your relationship in high school give you any sense of knowing more?
What to do in college, or were you just still completely befuddled by it?
Completely taken by surprise.
Wow.
My parents didn't help me, but I made the decision.
They let me do that.
We didn't go to visit colleges back then.
Just took a chance.
I got into this one.
I didn't think I was particularly smart until I got to college, and then we were taking courses for freshmen.
And I thought, this is all what I had in high school.
You know, this is easy.
Well, that lasted for six months.
Then it got hard.
Then it got college level.
They were making sure where people were when they got there.
So when did you hit the transition then between feeling comfortable with college and starting to feel like you were into the groove of college life?
Those fraternity parties.
The music, this was in the 60s.
Oh, yeah.
And there was great soul music was out.
I loved soul music.
I mean, back then you danced to it.
Back then you danced by yourself so you didn't have to hold on to anybody's hand or anything.
Although you danced with a boy, but you didn't have to hold on to it.
Right.
So it was just fun.
I could have fun just dancing.
But we drank like Animal House, the movie Animal House.
Everybody drank like that.
Beer and hard liquor as well.
They'd mix the hard liquor into something.
A punch.
Yeah.
We didn't have probably social parameters that people weren't sneaking off to bedrooms or anything.
Right, right.
Especially if you were a freshman and all that.
So it was just fun partying.
Yeah.
So we went out as much as we could.
Are there any times that you can recall from college where you got and remembered getting really, really drunk?
And what were the consequences or what was the outcome of that the next day?
I was young and healthy and because I danced a lot perhaps, I worked a lot of the alcohol out.
I don't remember any consequences except my grades were not so good.
I don't remember hangovers, but this was a long time ago.
But I do remember my sophomore year sitting in a booth talking to a new date all afternoon drinking beer and just really enjoying sitting there and talking to him.
But I couldn't remember a word that was said.
I thought that was strange.
Kind of like a blackout, huh?
It was a blackout.
And I didn't know about blackouts.
Yeah.
When I went to this school, you couldn't drink within 20 miles of the school for the first quarter of the year.
After that, they loosened things up and you could drink in town.
So is it safe to say the balance of your college career was similar?
Mm-hmm.
Do you ever remember a time when things really got bad during that experience or was that pretty much a good time all the way through?
Sometime in my sophomore year, somebody asked me out and I said, sure.
So it was during the week, went out, and this fellow, whoever he was, I mean, we all took blind dates back then.
Yeah.
He said, boy, you really drink a lot.
And I thought, that's funny he would say that.
Yeah.
I thought, oh, I've got great capability.
Yeah.
You know, I was proud of that.
Uh-huh.
And I thought I was just fine, too.
Mm-hmm.
But in driving me back, I was late and you had to be in at a certain time.
And when I got back, it turned out that I had thought I'd gotten away with something, going out when I shouldn't have gone out.
Mm-hmm.
And I got caught.
Mm-hmm.
And so there was some big, there were some consequences.
Mm-hmm.
And I could have gotten kicked out.
It was an honors thing.
Wow.
It was, you know, if you broke the honor code, then you got kicked out.
Kicked out of the school?
Mm-hmm.
And so, but that, the honor code has went to the wayside, too.
Yeah, sure, of course.
I don't remember anything that happened except my mother flew up to this small town.
Mm-hmm.
And walked around the campus with me.
Mm-hmm.
I didn't take her to any classes.
Uh-huh.
She was present on campus.
And I think that's probably why I didn't get kicked out.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know if she met with anybody.
She never talked, we never talked about why she was up there.
She and I didn't.
I had called my father's office and said, Daddy, I'm in trouble.
I don't know what's going to happen to me.
Well, you know, they paid tuition for this.
Yeah, of course.
My dad was more of a soft touch for me.
Uh-huh.
But my mom was tough.
Mm-hmm.
Sure.
And I don't know what she did, but I saw her for a couple of days.
Problem solved.
Problem solved.
So what did it look like when you got out of school?
What was your trajectory after graduating from college?
To do more of the same partying.
I loved it.
Mm-hmm.
I was not engaged.
There were a lot of gals who were engaged.
Mm-hmm.
By the end of their senior year.
And then a lot of gals had great jobs.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in new places like New York or whatever.
Oh, yeah.
I had no clue what I wanted to do.
I had majored in something that was very easy for me because I didn't want to do any work.
I had not taken hard courses that would have been of interest to me because it would have required more work.
I should say this.
My senior year, I remember calling each of my professors and saying,
I just wanted to know what grade you were going to give me.
And they said, well, why?
Because back then you had to graduate in four years.
Right.
And I was terrified I would not graduate.
I didn't express that to anybody.
Mm-hmm.
But they all gave me decent grades.
Passing grades.
Wow.
Not even just passing.
I just thought, well, I haven't done anything.
And the woman in charge of all the gals said to me one night when I was signing out to go out again, said, Julie, what are you doing?
You know, like, you're going out every night.
Mm-hmm.
I went out to drink.
I didn't say that to myself, but I went out for fun and to do that.
Mm-hmm.
I thought I could do anything I wanted to do and all would be fine.
My dad was not wealthy, but he was comfortable.
Mm-hmm.
And I just thought I'd be taken care of always.
So you went from college back home at that point?
I did, but not for long.
Okay.
I immediately moved to Atlanta, Georgia.
For a job or just because?
One of my school friends was there and wanted a roommate.
And I said, oh, I'll come over there.
So I went over there and drove her VW while she was off out of town with her business.
Mm-hmm.
And I drove her VW, which I did not know how to drive, all over town looking for a job.
Mm-hmm.
And I finally got a job with the airline and didn't want to be a flight attendant, which sounded so glamorous.
I wanted to be, I thought I wanted to be something more under the radar.
Yeah.
But the flight attendant.
And the thing of it is, I thought I have all these benefits.
I can travel anywhere I want to go if I'm working for the airlines.
Oh, yeah.
So once again, to show my immaturity, I am rarely on time for my job and didn't realize that you were supporting me.
I didn't realize that you were supposed to be on time.
I mean, I didn't, it didn't apply to me.
The rules just don't apply to me.
Yeah.
And my supervisor, I could tell, had a crush on me.
So I could get away with anything, I thought.
I mean, he thought I was cute or something.
Right.
And he had a family and all this.
But I just took advantage of that kind of stuff.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
Also, I had a bank account in Houston.
Yeah.
And I just overdrew it all the time.
But because the banker had come to Atlanta sometime on a business trip with a cohort, a colleague, I was, they called on me.
They knew my dad.
And they called on me and took me out to dinner.
And this one guy was single and he just thought I was great, I could tell.
Uh-huh.
And he said, and he never charged me for overdrafts.
Uh-huh.
Well, then, what, eight years later, when I was getting married, he heard I was getting married from my dad.
And he called and said, you'll have to pay the amount you're overdrawn.
Oh, no.
And it was, at the time, it was this huge amount.
And I thought, well, why?
He let you off the hook for eight years.
Wow.
Unbelievable.
Wow.
So I don't know how I did it.
But I did pay him.
But I did pay it back.
But I was resentful that he asked for it.
Did he have designs on you at that point?
I think so.
Yeah.
But, you know, he was a nice guy.
And I was just flirty but not, I wasn't at all interested in him.
Yeah.
Were you drinking all the time at this point?
Every night.
Every night.
Yeah.
So did you ever go into work drunk or drink during the day?
Uh-huh.
So you were an evening drinker.
Uh-huh.
How about the weekends?
Well, sure.
Yeah.
If there were some people around the pool, sure, we might have a beer or something.
But I was active, you know?
Was your daily drinking with or without people?
Did you have to have people around?
It was party scene for me.
Yeah.
So it had to be with people until one day, something must have gone wrong or happened.
And my roommate was gone.
And I said, I need a drink.
And I looked around the apartment.
And there was nothing to drink except cooking sherry.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
And I remember thinking, this is probably not a good idea.
Uh-huh.
But I drank that cooking sherry.
Uh-huh.
And I felt fine.
Uh-huh.
You know, just fine.
Uh-huh.
Uh-huh.
So maybe it wasn't a, so maybe it was more gradual.
But by then, I was 24, 25.
You're drinking on a daily basis after you get home from work.
Uh-huh.
Did you drink till you went to sleep or pass out?
No.
So it wasn't over an abundance every evening of drinking, was there?
There was.
Uh-huh.
But it was not falling into the soup kind of drunkenness.
I see.
Or stumbling.
Okay.
It was just having a good time.
Wow.
So you're one of those rare people that was able to get to the point of feeling just pretty
good and just leaving it at that?
No, no.
No, I kept going.
There was no, there was no way.
I had, I looked back and I had no stop.
There was no stop.
Yeah.
Were you a blackout drinker when you drank or did you remember next day everything that
went on the night before?
I was remembering, by that point, I was remembering things.
It really took a turn for the worst in my later 20s and 30s.
What happened then?
I moved back to Houston probably in my mid-20s.
It wasn't my mid-20s.
Uh-huh.
And I was on my way.
Actually, I didn't move.
I was just stopping over because I decided I was going to see another friend out in California
and I was going to move out there and get a job.
And I met some boys here and Houston was a different town and it was fun.
And I moved in somewhere else, not my parents.
And that was fun.
Met a lot more people and we had big parties.
They were always really fun.
Uh-huh.
And so meanwhile, there were all these.
. .
Men in and out of my life and I was having a wonderful time, I thought, and going nowhere.
More dates and more people and different jobs, all kinds of different jobs, not going anywhere.
And then met somebody and he was actually somebody from my school, my high school.
But he'd only been there a year when we graduated and so I didn't know him very well.
Uh-huh.
But I fell in love with him and I did notice it was easy to drink with him.
I didn't have to hold back.
So he fell into your routine pretty much?
That's all we did was drink.
That was it?
Yeah.
And we went hunting and I didn't, I wasn't really that adept at that.
I'd been familiar with it but I wasn't.
Uh-huh.
And I remember bird hunting.
Uh-huh.
Somebody, some part of the group we were with down another end of the field and they said,
Hey, we're getting all your shot over here.
I'd been drinking and I just, I thought . . .
Your aim wasn't so good.
Yeah.
Why was I shooting in that direction?
Well, that's where the birds were.
Why wouldn't I shoot over there?
Oh, and they finally moved because I couldn't, I didn't get it.
Uh-huh.
So it was really getting bad then.
And I was saying, I can drive.
Let me drive.
So I'm familiar with Houston.
So I drove, I drove everywhere and I did a lot of driving drunk.
A lot of drunk, yeah.
And then, and it got downhill after I married.
How long were you married when things started to go on the decline?
It was bad from the day because I just had no, there were no, there were no holes barred.
I just drank, but it was always at the end of the day.
Is it safe to say that drinking informed your decision making at that point?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
And those aren't very good decisions.
I've, I've realized that in my own sobriety that there were some key life decisions that
I made at a time where I was impaired.
And just like you, I just wanted to get out of school so I could party.
I wanted to do what I wanted to do.
And while my friends were going on to law school and while they were going on to these great careers,
all I said was, I just want the freedom to be able to, to drink and smoke pot whenever I want, wherever I want.
And those kind of decisions follow you for a long time after that.
Did you, sounds like you experienced some of those yourself.
I did.
I don't know if I'm communicating that, but yeah, that was exactly right.
And I remember I wanted to get married.
I was 30 when I got married.
And after a couple of years, you know, there was talk about children and I suddenly wasn't
sure I wanted to have any.
Of course, my mom, I'd grown up with that.
Oh yeah, sure.
But I didn't stand up for myself.
I didn't know what I stood up for.
I didn't stand up for anything.
Then I found I couldn't have children.
It's just amazing.
God was there though the whole time and He, He saved me from all kinds of terrible things
that could have happened to me.
I mean, I can just think of them.
Within the marriage?
No.
Before the marriage.
Before the marriage.
When I was single.
So there were consequences.
I mean, there were possible very serious consequences of my drinking in college, I guess, and then
single on my own in Atlanta.
And then coming back to Houston, there were, there were times where I was, I was kept alive
and kept out of harm's way.
We'll be right back.
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And we're back.
So you were in some pretty sketchy situations.
Sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
Before you got married.
And then you get married and you're marrying somebody who becomes your drinking buddy at
that point?
Oh, yeah.
We, we love to drink.
Yeah.
And we, I stopped smoking so I could be a healthy mom.
But then.
But then I kept on drinking.
And then it was, couldn't have children, couldn't have children.
Well, maybe we would adopt.
I wasn't thinking.
Yeah.
I drank.
I drank heavily every night.
And suddenly, you know, I had been married a couple of years and I was, I wasn't, I was
wondering why I wasn't happier.
Mm-hmm.
And, and somebody came along and kept talking about Jesus.
And I thought, oh, she's a Jesus fanatic.
And, but, but I wanted her over for dinner a lot.
Mm-hmm.
So she'd come over for dinner and we'd drink wine.
Mm-hmm.
And eventually I would, I'd ask her some questions.
But, and one day she said, you know something about how much Jesus loved her?
And I, and I thought, I want to be loved like that.
Yeah.
And.
And it wasn't coming from the marriage.
No.
I mean, there were, I couldn't have said what was why.
It wasn't.
Yeah, sure.
But I wasn't, I was, and she one day came over to my house to see our new puppy and
all this.
And, and she said, Julie, you have it all.
Handsome husband who's got a job and a house and a puppy.
And, and I almost burst into tears.
Mm-hmm.
And I didn't know why.
And, but I didn't let her see that and I didn't do it.
And, and I was.
And I was just, I guess, having a mental breakdown.
Mm-hmm.
But I, I remember saying, I said a prayer one afternoon when I was probably still hung
over.
Mm-hmm.
And, and just said, God, I don't seem to be making myself happy.
You know.
Mm-hmm.
Would you do it?
So I hadn't been, I wasn't a, I wasn't a person who went to church.
I wasn't.
But on occasion there'd be a reminder that.
Mm-hmm.
There was a God, maybe.
And maybe I ought to pay attention.
Mm-hmm.
And I'd go, well, why?
Yeah.
And when I got married, somebody gave us a Bible with our name on it.
And I said, why do people try to put God in everything?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so, you know, put that back in the box somewhere.
So there I was, I guess, in a sense, turning my life over to a, to a God I did not know.
And then.
Was that a turning point for you then?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You were very concerned with God.
Yeah.
Yeah.
With.
With regard to your drinking?
Yeah.
Or you just wanted God's help?
Oh, sure.
I wasn't concerned about the alcohol.
I was absolutely unaware.
Mm.
Of my drinking.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Except out the hangovers?
Now in my early 30s we're getting really bad.
Mm-hmm .
Mm-hmm .
Were they affecting your work life and your social life?
Well, I'd get to work.
They did affect my social life.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm .
I'd had two little baby boys I began to notice the drinking and it was because I was suddenly
although married to a fine man I loved who was the daddy of these two little boys I suddenly was
really attracted to two people two men and I thought that's that's not something I can do
for some reason that there was a fence there I could not do adultery and the thing of it is
I knew that was going to happen and I knew I think the reason I knew was I got this
out of nowhere I remember sitting with two little my two little tiny boys somewhere maybe in the
doctor's office or something
and
And having this thought come through my mind, maybe alcohol has something to do with your problems.
Because I knew, I felt the shame and the guilt even of this attraction to these other people, these men.
Maybe some fear that it might overtake you?
It would. It would.
And I knew that.
So I don't know where the knowing came from.
But I knew it was going to happen.
And it was because of alcohol.
So was that the first time you actually attached your use of alcohol to some kind of behavior that you didn't want to engage in,
but you had no control as long as alcohol was in the picture?
Yeah, but I didn't know that.
It was a strange thought.
That's kind of a God thing too, right?
That's definitely a God thing, in my opinion, now looking back.
And I knew I couldn't.
Not drink.
At the same time of recognizing that, I knew I could not, not drink.
And here you were raising from babies to toddlers, and were you drinking the entire time?
The whole time.
I did not know.
I did not know.
I was not supposed to drink while I was pregnant.
So I drank while I was pregnant.
For some reason, I didn't hear that.
The boys turned out okay?
Well, yeah.
As far as I know.
But it was right after that that a friend who was a Christian friend of mine said,
Do you want to go to church with me?
And I said, Sure.
I'll leave the two little babies with my husband, and I'll go to church with you.
And we went to this church, and it was in a double-wide trailer.
Well, that was new to me.
Anyway, people were real friendly and nice.
It was.
It was nice to be there and not to be loaded down with little ones.
And the preacher started talking, and about five minutes into his sermon, he said,
You know, I need to change what I'm talking about.
Somebody here needs to hear about alcohol and how dangerous alcohol is.
And I heard that, but it didn't go, That's for me.
I did not think that.
Yeah.
But I just...
I just listened to him, and he said, Did you know that...
He said, I'm going to sound like a Baptist preacher.
He said, Alcohol will kill your life.
It will kill your health.
It will kill your job.
It will kill your relationships.
It will kill your marriage.
It will kill your children.
It will kill...
I mean, it went on and on and on.
And I went home and didn't think anything of it.
And that night, about five, I was...
I was in with these little boys, and so I reached for my big German wine glass,
because I didn't have to refill it very often.
And I reached for that, and I remembered the sermon.
And I said, I just said to myself, God, if you want me to quit drinking,
you'll have to help me, because I can't do it.
And just for that second, I thought, Well, I'll just put the glass back in the cabinet.
I'll do it later.
And I'll wait a minute.
And so every time I thought about it that night, bathing the babies and putting them in bed and, you know, all that,
and every time I thought about it, it's time to do it, I'd think, Oh, I've got to...
I'll wait a minute.
I'll just wait a minute.
I had never, ever done that.
So after you asked God for help, you got the thought that repeated itself over the course of that evening of,
I'll just wait a minute.
I'll wait a minute.
Putting it off and putting it off.
Just putting it off.
I wasn't...
I wasn't planning on not drinking.
I just was putting it off.
I just was putting it off right then.
Sounds like a moment of clarity to me.
That night, though, I was going to bed, and I did go, I haven't had a single thing to drink.
I wonder how long this will last.
That's what I said to myself.
Didn't tell my husband.
Didn't think about it.
Right after that, we put a contract on a house.
And suddenly I found myself pregnant again.
I had all these things to distract me.
And I didn't drink.
And I didn't think about drinking.
And that was back in about February of 83.
Because when I got to a good AA meeting eventually down the way,
somebody in there said, so, what's your sobriety date?
And I said, well, you know, I just really don't remember.
You know, it was kind of like six weeks before I found out I was pregnant with my third child.
And he said, pick a date.
And I said, oh, okay.
And so that's why it's February 11th, 1983.
So I lived for six years with three little children and a new house.
And on my own, and things were really getting out of my control now.
The little ones were, you know, they were.
And I couldn't, and the house was bigger, and I was always running upstairs to,
you know, check on the baby.
And I was beginning to notice I needed help from my husband.
And he was busy working all the time.
And so I got mad.
And I got madder and madder.
I did not know how to live life without my comfort.
But I didn't remember that that was my comfort.
It was like it was off the table.
I was not interested in alcohol.
Nobody had noticed that I had stopped drinking.
Seventeen months after I stopped, we were out to dinner.
And I had been nursing a baby, so of course I had reasons like that.
And my husband said, oh, she doesn't drink.
And I thought, oh, he noticed.
I mean, you know, I never told him.
I never talked to him or anything.
So you were dry this whole time.
Oh, no, that's not all.
That's not all.
Okay.
I was dry for six years.
Six years.
And I didn't know.
Without AA at all.
No AA.
Didn't know anything about it.
And so one day I was so mad.
Somebody had said I was complaining all the time about my life.
It sounded like my mom, I'm sure.
And someone said, was there alcohol?
Is there a problem with alcohol?
And I said, well, I don't drink anymore, but, you know, everybody around me does.
My husband, my parents, you know.
But no.
Nobody was falling into the soup.
They were all functioning.
Yeah.
But I was mad as hell.
They weren't doing what I wanted them to do.
So somebody said, you ought to go to Al-Anon.
I'll take you there.
So I went to Al-Anon, and I thought, well, you know, this is helpful, but my husband's got to change.
My parents have got to change.
All this.
And then one day I was taking a little boy to a Cub Scout meeting, and I thought, this church has lots of 12-step meetings.
I'm going to find any 12-step meeting and stay here.
I'm going to stay here while he's in Cub Scouts.
And so I walked in.
The first door I opened, and this meeting was already going.
It was a packed room.
There was smoke everywhere.
It was already going.
They were talking about the steps, so I knew it was a step meeting.
I mean, I knew it was a 12-step meeting.
And so I found the one chair left and sat in it and listened.
And the whole meeting, my face, I felt was.
I really read from embarrassment because they were talking about me, how I thought, and what I did, and my thinking.
They knew what I was thinking.
I thought, how do they know I'm here?
And I had to get up and leave because it was time to pick up that little Cub Scout.
And so I got up and left before the meeting was over.
And as I left, I asked the man sitting next to the door, so what kind of 12-step meeting was this?
He said, alcoholics.
Alcoholics, synonymous.
And I walked out of there thinking, that was all about me.
I couldn't be an alcoholic.
I haven't had a drink in six years.
So I was shocked and in overwhelm.
Everybody else was an alcoholic, but I wasn't because I didn't drink.
It was a God thing because I'd been drinking for 15, 16 years.
Every night and heavily, heavily.
And bad hangovers.
They're at the end, not at the beginning.
But then, so I started coming back to that meeting.
And it was a step study.
And it was every week they were reading and talking about A-step.
And it was me.
Each time.
Each time.
I knew I was an alcoholic.
Although I wouldn't have said it.
I would have said, no, no, I'm not under the bridge.
Alcoholics are little old men.
We live under a bridge.
And here were all these women in here.
And I thought, well, what are they doing in here?
Were you still going to Al-Anon at the time?
I think I probably went because I was going during the day.
And I could go during the day.
Okay, so you were going to Al-Anon during the day and A-A at night.
At A-A meeting, step study at night.
It was that Tuesday night one.
Do you remember the first time you got called on that you said your name and that you were an alcoholic?
I thought I drank too much.
Which is different than being an alcoholic.
So you'd say your name and I drank too much?
Or what would you say?
No, I don't know that they called on me.
It was a huge meeting.
And I think I didn't feel like I had enough money.
Somebody gave me a big book.
I read the big book.
I read all those stories in the back because I was going to find the thread between all these stories.
I couldn't find the thread.
So I was in that meeting.
And it eventually had some problems.
And so they split up.
And I stayed with that meeting.
And I knew I was alcoholic.
But I didn't know women took me under their wings.
It was, I don't know why.
Maybe because I got there late.
Because I had to.
Just, that was my schedule.
I brought somebody to this Cub Scout meeting.
But then that changed.
You know, blah, blah, blah.
And so I was probably not in there very much.
Were you aware of the concept of sponsorship?
By that point?
Or?
I knew.
I thought at the time that certainly my sponsor.
And I had done some step work in Al-Anon.
So I thought, well, I'm fine.
I've done some step work there.
But there was a point where it came to me that I should do the steps.
And I thought, well, I don't know any women here.
But I've done this fourth step.
And it's all about alcohol.
And I don't want to talk about it.
And so I went to my Al-Anon sponsor.
So I looked around and found a woman who was, who laughed a lot.
And I liked her joy.
And I thought, I'll ask her.
Alice was her name.
I don't know if you ever knew Alice.
I don't know her last name.
Never did.
But she became my temporary sponsor.
But she was a busy nurse.
And it was not.
And I was busy with three little children.
And no help.
And I mean, some people have a lot of help.
I didn't have any help.
And so I was cooking and cleaning.
So it was a while until you got yourself an AA sponsor.
It was.
I got, in fact, I was, my kids grew up.
I stopped going to meetings.
And I was so mad.
Again, I thought, I've got to find meetings to go to.
And I found that there was a 7 a.m. meeting I could go to.
On Saturdays.
So I did that.
And after a while.
And what I heard was life changing.
And this thought went through my brain.
Not for me.
And it was, this is life or death for you.
And I went, it is life or death for me.
That's for sure.
So I was afraid to tell my husband by this time.
I was afraid to, because I was afraid he was going to divorce me.
So I was living in all this fear that was all inside my head.
And fear for the children.
And where were they going to go to school?
And what if they, this and what about that?
And no recovery.
No, I mean, no, nothing to help me.
Oh, I say all that time, though, I was going to Bible study at church.
So, you know, maybe, maybe God helped me through that.
So how many years were you doing that between when you first went to AA and the kids got older and you were,
was there a hiatus between your first AA Al-Anon meeting?
And picking it up again down the line?
There was.
How long a period was that?
But I would, but I would go, I would go to various and sundry meetings I could find on occasion.
Okay.
So you stayed connected.
Any meeting I could get to.
I get it.
When I was desperate.
Kind of recharge you for the time being.
Because I would hear of somebody who had 12 years or 15 years and had just gone out.
And I'd had 12 years of not having a drink.
I thought, I thought it was enough.
Yeah.
I'm not drinking.
I'm not drinking.
Uh-huh.
So why don't these people do what they're supposed to do?
Mm-hmm.
So it wasn't until I found that and had been in that 7 a.m. Saturday meeting that I was in there complaining about everything.
And that's where the man said, pick a date.
And I went, well, who are you to tell me?
And, and so, but a woman came up to me after the meeting and looked me in the eye.
And she said,
You need to do an alphabetical gratitude list.
And I thought, who the hell does she think she is?
And that afternoon, that reminder came to me that she had said that.
And there was nobody around.
Mm-hmm.
And I thought, well, maybe I'll try that.
And I did do an alphabetical gratitude list.
And it absolutely, my attitude changed 180 degrees.
You know how it says in the big book?
That we cease fighting anything and everything?
Mm-hmm.
I had been fighting, I was fighting everything.
I had to have my way.
I had to have my way.
I was right.
And, um.
So how long were you dry when she had that finger pointing at you?
I, I, oh, I bet, I bet 22 years or 21 years.
Mm-hmm.
But I had come on occasion to meetings.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
I had quit Al-Anon.
I was doing Bible study.
So, you know, nobody seemed to understand there.
If I said, mentioned anything about drinking too much, nobody picked up on that or asked me about that.
Huh, that's true.
So I was kind of stumbling along.
I was afraid of everything.
Afraid my husband would leave us, leave me, and I'd be left with three children.
And, because he'd lost a drinking buddy.
Oh, yeah.
But did I think about that?
No.
Mm-hmm.
And he was busy working.
And so I was in charge of everything, and I couldn't manage anything.
And it was, um, I had to go to, I decided to go to, um, Debtors Anonymous because we had big arguments about the way I spent money.
Mm-hmm.
And, gosh, they were talking about me in there, too.
The way I thought.
So I.
Can't get away from it, can you?
Yeah, yeah.
So God seems to want me to be in 12-step programs.
I guess so, yeah.
And, uh, they, like it says in the big book, it's a design for living.
Yeah.
And I, I need that.
I need that.
Uh-huh.
Um, and it's kind of like being practical about spiritual things.
And, um, so, talk about ease and comfort.
I get that from being in the program, from working the steps.
Yes, absolutely.
And, um, and not from a drink.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And not from a drink.
Yeah.
And not from a drink.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or even, and I just don't think about the drink.
But that was a God thing, to take that desire away.
Well, to take the desire away and to leave you with being dry but not being sober.
Sobriety is about so much more than not drinking.
But the things that you're talking about, the fear, you know, those anxious feelings,
not, not being able to control things.
So this is all coming to a head at, what, 22 years dry?
Probably.
Probably.
Because I remember somebody from Al-Anon was in a,
in a, this AA meeting for my 22nd birthday, which I knew I didn't sound like I knew anything
about AA, but she said something nice about me, and she was one of the only people who
knew me in that big meeting.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I was so grateful for that.
Mm-hmm.
Because I did not talk like I knew anything about the 12 steps.
Mm-hmm.
Because you weren't working the program at that point.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You were still able to stay sober.
You're in AA.
Who knows when someone says, I'm sober and I'm in AA, nobody bothers to say, have you
worked the steps?
Have you done this?
Have you done that?
The assumption of somebody who's been sober or dry 22 years is, wow, she must just know
the big book inside out and have a dozen sponsees.
Right.
But that wasn't true for you.
Right.
Hmm.
Not at all.
Not at all.
How do you feel about that?
I'm guessing.
there were times when people made that assumption in your presence how did you feel when people
around you were thinking that you were so engaged when you actually weren't i just thought maybe
they don't see that you know i just so you did a good job kind of hiding that well yeah i i don't
know if i did a good job hiding it i just um doesn't sound all that similar to when you were
in school as a kid though you were taking uh you you had a different behavior when you were around
people than you did back at home i get it so 22 years is that the jumping off point into
aa as a design for living for you what did that look like i got a sponsor oh great i asked somebody
to sponsor me and she said yes and so uh we started on the steps
we
we
we
discussed them we uh were both going to meetings um that uh the same meetings where
a step a week was being done uh it was helpful for me and i could talk to her about those things
about the steps about that particular step it's still it took me a while to talk to her about
um to talk honestly because i think all that time i had not been honest with myself
yeah and so um well especially if you're sitting in an aa meeting trying to make people around you
think that you're engaged when you're really not that's not necessarily an outward deception but
it still feels like that inside doesn't it right yeah i get it yeah i also though it became became
very clear to me that i i had options and um and i better be very careful or i would
um
lose this so somehow somehow rather i knew i was on scary ground so um this sponsor
and i met every week we saw each other at meetings talking to other people i learned so much
so much like what's that old german saying too soon old and too late smart you know something
like that
so i've i've dug in as a lot to the books um to the literature because the literature
just really speaks to me about me in a way that it hadn't before i'm guessing no it did back then
but i thought when i but i thought i would never forget it because it was so important
yeah and so on target for me and i wouldn't forget that but i do forget that well it probably has a
different impact on you when you're engaged in the program and doing the things that you need to
be doing yeah exactly they say in here though we have quick forgetters and i i have a quick
forgetter yeah and that's uh one of the reasons i need to come back and be reminded um oh yeah
oh yeah yeah i know that yeah but i needed to be reminded well especially when people say you know
that person has a lot of years but not enough days oh yeah
yeah and that i didn't even get that for the longest time and then i got it and i went oh wow
so in looking back from where you are right now to that 22 years ago you get the sponsor
you start working the steps you do the work that's necessary to create a design or let god
create a design for your life at this point what have the past number of years been like was there
a turning point within that where you felt
from being just a dry now sober alcoholic to being a woman whose life was really
fully engaged with the program yes when uh people started asking me to um sponsor them
and so when did that happen i can't recall but i remember thinking this is not i can't do that
uh did you ask your sponsor about it yeah and she uh whatever whatever she said
my life was so busy right my life was so busy with these kiddos they're still you know and in and out
and yeah doing all this and um so my life was so busy i have i have that excuse so i some stayed
sober for a while but moved on uh some didn't some just disappeared i mean i know that happens
to everybody sure but boy now i get such a hard time i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so
sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry
and i know the books better and i go through the books with them and um and i listen to them
and you're a real service to them i'm sure i feel good doing it it's good it's good for me
that's a good feeling yeah that's a really good feeling yeah have you had the opportunity to
engage with some of the women that they end up sponsoring and maybe even further on down the
line what's that been like for you oh fun oh you're a good person i'm a good person i'm a good person
you're my grand sponsor you know and so it's good that's as far as i would say yeah but uh do they
call me no not really yeah and i found um times where i've thought oh and my first sponsor said
she only took two or three people at a time and um and i have found it just depends on the
sponsees you know when they call and how much time it takes but it always seems to work out and
on occasion i thought oh this is getting a little crowded maybe um maybe i need to drop somebody but
i haven't yeah and i haven't needed to and it's been uh it's been good good for me it's been
really good for me i'll bet so god doesn't give us more than we can handle he also doesn't give
us more sponsees than we can sponsor yeah yeah so it sounds to me like you've got a relatively
content sober life
today is that a fair statement yeah i do i have i have relationships with my three children
um i've um i think they might have uh resented the fact that i went off sometimes at night for
alan on meetings way back when but uh but um i've also heard mom you need a meeting
and uh that's great and i've also heard um
mom how can you trust what people say in those meetings because there's a a meeting right across
the street from my daughter's place in new york and uh and i come back from there happy as a
clown i am and she says but they they're not licensed mom how can they help you
and so she thinks it's a room full of therapists doesn't she or uh yeah i think so and uh and
they're and they were drunk and they were drunk and they were drunk and they were drunk and they
were drunk and they were drunk yeah well in a way they actually are because what we we provide to
each other is about as therapeutic as any counseling i've ever been in in fact more so because i've had
phd psychologist years and years ago before i stopped drinking he never confronted me on drinking
i tell him about getting drunk doing this and that all the stuff that was associated with it he never
ever brought up the idea of stopping drinking but he always at the end said keep coming back this is
working and bring a chance to do it and i think that's a great way to do it i think that's a great
check yeah right right right i didn't i didn't have the money to uh to go to therapists but i
would go on occasion and inevitably i just found that i could say anything i wanted to and they
maybe weren't thinking and uh i of course never told them the truth well that's what's beautiful
about a.a is that we can go in there we can speak our truth without fear of judgment from others
because they're all sitting there with the same kind of fear we are about being judged so nobody
管 emergency and that's what we're trying to do and that's what we're trying to do and that's
We try not to judge each other.
I get that.
And also, something that I've heard that really was comforting to me is what I say is the best I can say what's going on with me right now.
Right now.
But in an hour.
In an hour.
I may not feel exactly the same.
Sure.
About this or about that.
Yeah.
And I recognize that, but I know that out in the world, I would have thought I have to have this opinion for the rest of my life.
I mean, that's what I thought back then.
But my children speak to me, which is good, because a dry drunk is not a happy mom to have.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so I've made amends to them, and they don't really remember when I was drinking.
Yeah.
They don't know.
But I made amends.
I made amends to them for talking badly about their dad.
But you made amends for your own sobriety, and the fact that you did it is instructive for them.
Even if things haven't been all that fractured, there's a lot of good healing that goes on.
Oh, yes.
In that environment, isn't there?
And I've had to say to one child, and I finally said, you know, I'm never going to mention this again, but if you find that alcohol is a problem for you, AA has got the solution.
I did the same thing you did.
You know, I'm going to tell you.
If you ever need help, I'm here for you.
If any of your friends ever need help, I'm here for them.
The program has the solution.
If I can help walk you in or hold your hand along the way, I'll do that.
But I get that.
I'm glad everybody's still here.
And I'm glad somebody was here when I first came.
And I'm glad people let me come in, even though I was so messed up.
Yeah.
Unhinged.
Yeah, I get that.
You know, you take away the alcohol.
If that's been your comfort for a number of years, and you take that away, you've got to have something else.
And what is there?
Yeah.
Left to my own devices, I came up with nothing.
This is the design for living for me.
Yeah.
And my God seems to want me to be in 12-step programs, and AA particularly.
Yeah, that's a beautiful sentiment to end with, Julie.
I want to thank you so much for doing this.
And I think those people who do listen will be impacted by it.
I believe so, because your story is unique in its own way.
And I want to thank you for that and tell you that I love you as an AA sister,
and that doing this today has just meant the world to me.
Thank you.
Thanks so much.
Well, my friends, that's it for this episode of AA Recovery.
Thanks to Julie H. for sharing her story, and thank you for tuning in.
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