Tom I. ( 3 of 7 ) Mens Fall Retreat in Vancouver ( 9 18 10 ) AA Speaker Tom I Mens Fall Retreat – Part 3 – Sandy B.

Thank you, Bill. What really happened now, the committee did a time study and they calculated we'd get out here Tuesday at noon. So they said, get on up, boy. So we, yeah, just to add to one thing that what he said, when we're on a particular topic, let's focus that topic. Then we'll move through more effectively, probably more efficiently. That's really what we're trying to do. Because you can, and I'm a glutton for it, we could go on for a week, literally, and not even slow down. But if we just, whatever topic we're on, just to try to stay within that bracket, then we'll move to another one pretty quickly. What time we quit? What time is it? Huh? Oh yeah, great. That's for poor folks. Like me. okay i can't five till twelve will you give me a high sign in case i happen to get caught up in what i'm doing okay i appreciate that i had that's what they did at the international you know i was trying i was just getting ready to start and that guy was over there so i've responded to that uh well good session guys when i finish the session sweating i think it worked out pretty good so i appreciate the engagement i really like to see that the old saying you get out of what you put in it is so true yeah so can i just ask one question yeah i just want to know where the circle started when we stand up and do this right now i've heard i've hurt now i don't know if it's true or not some group in texas some texans stood up and said why don't we all just hold hands like with you, the Lord's Prayer. Now I don't know if that's true, but I would just like to know if you have your opinion or you know... All it is is an opinion, but I think like a lot of relatively moderate stuff started in treatment. It's a part of what they do in group therapy to get the trust and get the level of communication up. Chanting, same thing. The same kind of stuff. I think most of that originated when we started getting an influx from that kind of a story. Now I go to Texas an awful lot and they swore to me that they had never done anything to wrinkle the water. I trust them because they'll shoot you if you don't. I'll tell you one thing. There are subtle ways to deal with stuff. In our group, we didn't much like it. If you read the promises and then these examples, And then the hallelujah chorus says, we think, well, we didn't like that. But we didn' t want to create a brouhaha. So we just took that part off the end of the promises and cut it off. It' s really funny to watch people reading. Didn' t he have to call a business meeting? We just did it. there's always a way to do stuff you know what it was I don't know where he sits booby trap oh hey when he falls he's going to sue you I bet he'll never bring me anything else thank you buddy yeah I appreciate that oh man yeah yeah I'm not as big as I look yeah I think that's gonna work great good deal buddy uh it's what I was trying to do and I really appreciate that open interchange we do but it really does kind of wreak havoc with the schedule. I was trying to get into focus on the big book, step type stuff we were working yesterday then we'll move into the other phases. I just kind of marked them out you know and so we'll try to focus on those particular areas. And I want to mention a little bit, we're talking about like the thing we read last night about David and what happened to him and about getting involved in the whole program and we talked a fair amount about that on only amends process and how critical that is you know it's just a part of deal but vitally important part of the deal and had a good effect Brian and I've had a good talk about about the men's over cup coffee that I bought by the way and so Well, it is. It's a tremendously important part of the program. Let me run that down to you just because I didn't do it there. You know yesterday that I told you that I was institutionalized because of doing the thing that God knows alcoholics do every day around the world, and that's causing folks to die just by the stupid thing of driving blind drunk. That was the kind of thing, I'll just walk you through that just to kind of illustrate how it can work if you really try to do what's laid out in this, and really try the practice program. You know, I was obviously, well I don't know if it was obvious or not, but I was tremendously shattered, I mean I simply really, really could not handle that very well. But even just as a human being, even as a drunk, I knew that I needed to make some kind of gesture to the families that were left. It was two young people, two different families, and I knew I needed make amends. And I had some of the guys, you know, street people are funny people. They'll rob you one day, but they'll lay down for you the next day. And so I had Some guys that came in from the street just to come over by and see me. and I asked one of them to contact the families for me and ask if they would be willing to hear from me. Both families quite understandably said no. That was very understandable. And so now that was before I ever heard of AA. Just as a human being, I did that. But they said no, so that closes the deal. It's like it says in the immense part in the book that we don't relieve our pain at somebody else's expense. and we can't force the issue to people that are not ready to accommodate it. And so I had to respect that, but that doesn't make you go away. And so when I got in the program, started hearing about amends, my God, I listened hungrily to everything I heard. Tried about everything I read that made any sense at all. And a certain amount I could do directly to the victims in terms of praying with their image in mind, writing to them, a number of things like that. also made up I don't mess with the steps much at all but on the eighth step I added something to a step and that's unusual but where it says we made a list of people who were harmed and became willing to make amends behind willing I put the word opportunity and added that as a part of my prayer was for willingness and opportunity Now, I promise you, I never did anything to make it happen. Absolutely nothing. Yeah, I continued with the direct... I made up my mind to do indirect amends to them. You know that the book refers to indirect amens. And you can do it. Sometimes you can't make like a victim in something like that. You can't makes direct amends. So make indirect. And I'll just finish that part with... It's amazing. That accident happened on the 3rd of May of 56. You could not believe the number of things that have happened on the 3rd of May that were absolutely, undeniably, directly related to what happened. And I spoke to 5,000 young people in one day, just about the age of the ones that died in that accident. And I talked about it, you know, the drunk driving and the hazards and stuff like this and about alcoholism. And I didn't plan that, you know, do two groups of 2,500. I planned none of it whatsoever. I did a televised interview on the public television thing that, yeah, I did an televised overview that a fellow told me that anonymity would be absolutely guaranteed, because, I mean, I didn'T mind if you say it to the world, But I really believe in anonymity and the value, not only to me but to the fellowship. And so he promised he'd be anonymous, change my voice, use that, I call it a Rubik's Cube thing where they put the colors there and they kind of move. He said nobody will be able to identify you. And he didn't know alcoholics, I swear. That thing, several months later I got a call from a woman in North Dakota And she said, Tom, did you make a movie? I said, have you lost your mind? Of course I didn't make a move. What are you talking about? And she says, well, I saw this thing and then it dawned on me. She said, I'm sorry to say on public television. I said yeah, I know what you're talking about. And I did. I said well how did you know it was me? There was supposed to be nothing identifiable. She said I recognized your nose. i said by god girl is it that bad she said well it's pretty bad but i mean that was just one of many you know and just on and on and with so many things that have come up spontaneously on third and i've never planned a single one everything that happens continues to so indirect minutes and i'll let you know a little secret it's part of what i'm doing here yeah i don't have zeal 10 times that of an average man just because I'm a dedicated idiot they're direct to me as associated you'd be amazed at how many people I meet going around all over the place that have done something like I did and quote got away with it without exception of the most tortured people that I've ever seen and just the opportunity to deal with and who knows you know it could be an influencing factor to some people so it's a part of the indirect not a guilt trip but it's just a part the indirect men the real question was the families though and because the families were they had already said we don't want to hear from this fella and so I put that willing in there and prayed that way never knew if anything would happen and so a couple years after out, something like that. I got a phone call from an attorney in Flint, Michigan and he identified himself and he said I'm representing the families that in that accident you had here. And he said they have entered a lawsuit based on the notion that what happened wasn't really your fault, that young folks were trying to cross the street and they jumped back to avoid another vehicle jumped into mind well just a natural human reaction I thought oh my god yeah it's like like I'm getting sort of a pardon you know in that thing and it but that didn't last two seconds I thought my god that doesn't change anything you can't mitigate some guy driving blind drunk down the main street of a city there is no mitigation for that I mean that just then speaks for itself And so he told me they were going to do that. He said, they think they would like to have you come up and testify at the trial. And I said, well, I'd be happy to do anything, but I've got nothing to offer. You know, I mean, my testimony at my own trial, I couldn't even testify there other than just say, I'm sorry, I don't know. And that's the hell of blackouts is I don' t know. And so I said I'd been glad to come. They said, Well, he said, They think it'll help. And I said, okay, I'll be there. So I went. Now you talk about an eerie feeling for a thousand reasons. But one, I walked in, the hearing was to be held in the same courtroom where I was convicted. And boy, you talk About an eery feeling. It's like walking across your own grave almost and walking back in there. Sat down and they had a section for the families and then I sat in the Same section but separated. You know, you don't normally connect offender and offended. It just isn't done. And so they went through the trial. I testified exactly like I knew it would be. I'm sorry, I don't know. I do everything I can to help, but I don' t know. And I know this is not supposed to happen, but I prayed for opportunity, and I got it. I didn' t Know it. I'm sitting there. I had no earthly idea I'd be able to do anything. Families and I hadn' t spoken to each other. And the bailiff came over, the guy that charged the court, decorum of the court. He came over and he said something to the families and then gestured and they went down the hall. So I figured it was a potty break. And so they went Downing Hall and then he came back and came over to me and extended the same courtesy, I thought. And he said, come on down. So I went down. I tell you, if you pray for opportunity, you better be prepared. because you never know when it's going to happen. And I went down that hall, and thinking I'm going to the John, and he came to a door. He opened it and gestured. And so I looked in. It doesn't take long to read a scene. I stepped in, and all at once I saw the two families, one in one corner and one across on the other side. They weren't together. They were separate. And the minute I saw it, man, it looked like the whole world was a flashbulb, just a total shock. you know of that and my first thought was run run it was not step in i promise you that and uh and i said well to myself looks like your prayers have been answered buddy move in or boogie and so i went in went over to the first family ask if i could speak to them and i swear to god i'll never understand it but they welcomed me as if i were family I mean, absolutely, just like family. Warm, loving, forgiving. I wasn't asking for anything except for them to let me talk to them. And so they were absolutely unbelievable. We hugged each other and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, man alive, this is something. And then I went over to the other family. They were an Eastern European family, first-generation immigrant from somewhere in the eastern block. And so I went over, and they were a paternal group, you know, and so they were in a circle. And when they saw me coming across the floor, they knew what I was doing, I guess, and they figured it out. The father stepped out of the circle and met me. We shook hands, and I said, would it be possible to speak to the family? And he went back into the family group, asked our guests, and then they did a group conference And he came back out, and he said, no, you can't speak to the family. Speak to me. I said, okay. And did. I just said to him everything I wanted to say. Very courteous, very considerate. And we got through. He said, we can't forgive. And I wasn't asking for forgiveness. I was just asking to let me speak to you. But nonetheless, that's what he said. We can't forget. Please don't bother us again. Well, that's been many years. And I've never had another opportunity. Who knows? May someday. All of us are getting pretty old. But if it comes, I'll be ready. If not, then I will have done exactly what Step said. If we make the amends wherever possible, except when it would do so, it injures them or others. And that doesn't include me. That includes them. And so I've had to leave it there. But it takes care of everything I can do without violating the principle and taking advantage of somebody. So I share that because I know that I'm not the only guy that's carried around heavy-duty guilt where meds are needed. And I think I made it pretty clear in a couple of those cases I mentioned that it is my fervent belief that freedom never comes as long as we're dragging those things that we wish we could forget. I don't think it ever comes. You'll always have that little thing to kind of eat your lunch on a regular basis and and so i i do call those the freedom steps because i think that's exactly what they what they lead to and being able to uh to move on to getting the business of living underway the um i'm just going to skip through some of that now and any on any of these things that deal with their any questions just give me a signal and we'll stop let's just stick to the topic on that and that was about the immense process so anybody who wants to comment or question anything on that thing have at it yeah You were saying about, till the opportunity arrives. How many years did the accident, till that opportunity arrives? That one only came to one time. But when was that? Oh, it was in probably... Like how many year period from the accident till the time you took your step, till you made the step nine? It would have probably been... My question is, did you push it? Did you wish it? Did you pray to... I didn't have to. No, I didn' t have to... They'd already said, don't come to us. They'd always say, you have to honor that. And so I did and I just prayed for... It took time. Well, I prayed for opportunity. I could explain their behavior but they both families agreed to see me and that opportunity, they didn't plan that trial just so I could be there but it was a marvelous opportunity. It was a marvellous opportunity. How many years was it, Tom? After the accident was in 1956. When was this lawsuit filed? Do you remember? Yeah, it would have been probably the early 60s. Oh. Yeah, yeah. Because I couldn't do anything while I was locked up directly and I was able to do stuff indirectly. But yeah, I think I was probably two years on the street when that came up. A year and a half or two years. So in other words, what you're saying is time makes the difference? Time makes a difference? Yeah. I was ready as soon as I read the amends steps. I was then. But the situation was not ready then. Because you placed yourself in a position at one point in time in step three, right? By telling your woman, I will take care of God. And then you waited for the opportunity to rise. But in between there was a gap, a big gap, right. Well, I could have made amends before I got in there, but it would have been crude and ugly. I wouldn't have known how to do it. Yeah, it would've been maudlin, emotional stuff. It would not have been clear communication. you know what program prepared me to be able to make honest amends and not impose more grief on people and so that i think that was the value of the time but the you know the steps lead us to the process i was prepared to make amends in a healthy way and so when that opportunity came it i had no hesitation whatsoever you know you're just a man it was an automatic thing Just like I mentioned in an earlier session, each step prepares us for the next step. And, you know, like six gets us ready to get rid of the defects. Seven guides us to eight and nine. And I think that's God's answer to the prayer, you Know. And then so it just falls in. Sorry? Yeah, yeah, it took a while. It took a few years. Yeah, and it was just a matter of the timing. I mean, you can't yank around a family that's been into that much grief. You can't yak them around. And I don't think anybody set that up just so I could make amends. Well, maybe they did, but it wasn't anybody in the court. It was my boss. Yeah, my boss had taken me to a lot of places I wasn't supposed to go, including there. Tremendous, obviously very valuable kind of a thing. And just like I mentioned, people I run into who have never dealt with that thing, it doesn't go away. I guarantee you that doesn't goes away. And those are tortured folk, tortured folk. Anybody else? Yeah. Did you have as much patience 30 years ago as you do today? Say it again now. Did you had as much patients and understanding in the program 30 years ago as what you do to this day? I think I did. I really do. Well, you've got to realize where I started from. I wasn't an active businessman or a hardworking somebody. I'm dead meat. I am done. And so I didn't have any impatience much. Everything for me was beyond my imagination. So I didn't have a lot of trouble with impatience. I really wasn't. When I was serving my time, I mean, I hated it, but I made every day count. It was worthwhile. Every day was a rewarding day for me, even in those conditions. And so I never have had a – I got a lot patience with me. I'm not always patient with other people, but no it never was. It never was a huge problem to me and something like making amends I was well aware that I had to wait for the time and I wasn't sure it would ever happen. I was resigned to that. I was not sure it whatever happened and when they did man I'm telling you that that that was just unbelievable but it happened exactly the I just told you, exactly that way. It's a good thing I wasn't planning the recovery. I doubt I would have made the plan like it turned out to be but that had introduced me to life I didn't even know existed. But all that's part of it. I was talking with Brian and we were talking about amends that that was tough emotionally, tough to deal with that. But some of the most difficult the men's that i had to make were to my own family that you that my family just like my mother for example she thought i was a fine boy yes she never believed i was an alcoholic i was living in her house every guy one day she was on the phone with a neighbor no in a room with a neighbour not on the phone and they were talking about surprise children and the woman said why does your son travel so much and mother said oh he's in that a thing and she said oh is he an alcoholic my mother oh no no and he was always a good boy what are you gonna do with bugs it's amazing but that was hard i almost had to hold her i was telling him i almost had to hold her to make amends you know i had a picture of there it was a canadian photograph niger father or queen or somebody and i was admiring it in her house and i said you know that's a beautiful picture she said you ought to like it you sent it to me i said gotta be kidding i had no clue and uh one day she was telling me how how how I wasn't that bad, I was a really pretty guy. She said, you know, you sent me that money for all those years and I said, what are you talking about? So when I'd gone in the military, I must have been drunk, I signed over what they called an allotment to her. She got a check every month that it was off defending my country laying flat on my back. And my first instinct, old habits die hard, my first instinct was, well give me the money. I tell you it's tricky with that kind of stuff. But it's amazing the difficulty people have excepting. Because the thing is what I was telling him, it's like you're having a sword fight with somebody with no sword. You know, they have no program. I have a program so the responsibility is overwhelmingly in my court, not them. And so I've got to be patient and help them understand the process. They don't understand it. It is a foreign thing. They're not used to that. They are used to getting me out of jail. So very, very difficult. I had more difficulty with them. I'll tell you one other one. It was a men's thing that had a lot of meaning to me. Early on, when I first hit the street, I'd had a boss one time that was not one of the nicest guys I've ever met in my life. And I ripped him off for a little bit of money. It wasn't much. He had a lot of money and I didn't so it seemed just to me to take the money. And so he was on my mind and he was high on my list of people I needed to see just because he was such a good guy. And so when I got out, it wasn't a whole lot of money but I didn't have that much so I borrowed the money. Now this is not good business unless you're talking about amends. I borrowed to make amends for taking the money and so I went over there to the place where I worked and I thought sure everybody would just jump on me the minute I walked in the door and say well you scoundrel, you finally have gotten justice or something like that. I walked in, the old secretary had been there longer than the building and she didn't know me. Probably looked different. But I said, I'd like to see Mr. Brown if I could. That's the owner. She said, well he's very busy. And I said, well, I understand that, but I need to see him. It's about some money I owe him. And she said, Well, that's the magic word, you know. So she said I'll see if he can see me. So he went in and he agreed to see me, and I went in, and he was really a nice man. There's one reason he was a hound. He was a really nice man, and so I went ahead and he sitting behind a huge desk, and even a small guy, But he was sitting behind that little desk, glasses on, and he didn't know me either. I've been carrying it for years, and He's sleeping every night. So anyway, I went in and told him what I was doing, and he couldn't catch on at first, you know. And so I told him, I said, buy some money, money I owe you that I ripped off when I was here. And he had absolutely no memory of any of it. And he said, well, look, I appreciate you coming in, but I can't take that money. I said, what do you mean you can't take it as yours? I said that's not mine. And he said, it'll screw up my bookkeeping, quite frankly. And I said I'm sorry about that, but it's screwed up my life and I've got to do something. I hadn't told him, you know the preliminaries of it, I said let me tell you really why I'm doing this now. I just sort of like going in man to man. So I told him what I was doing. He reached up to his glasses off. He said, well, I've been in business 40 years. I have never seen anything like this. I said, me either. But we hit it off. And from then on, every time I'd go to Charlotte where that business was, he had a certain place he liked to eat lunch. And I would always go in there if I was in Charlotte. And if he would see me, excuse me, he would always come across the dining room and greet me and say, how's that work of yours going? You know, that was his code. I said, great. That's the amends, eh? The healing, the reunion, you know, the cleanness, they come absolutely vital. I think vital stuff. I'm sorry that all this is jagged, but I dwell on that a little bit because it is, and I appreciate you asking that, because that is really to me a very vital part of recovery. There's a lot of things today, and at a conference somewhere down in Texas, I saw a beautiful Jaguar sitting over there, and boy, it was a handsome rod. So I went over there and took a look. On the front of the vanity plate, it said Step 9. I said, oh, I've got to meet this boy. I found him, and I said boy, that's a great Jaguar you've got there. Tell me about that plate. He said, well, he said, I bought that car and paid for it, and that's amends to me. I said, well, it's a good trial, buddy, but it has nothing to do with amends. Don't dignify it with that. You just bought a car for God's sake. Don't trash it that way. So anybody else see anything on amends? Yeah, right? Did you take the money or you didn't take it? He took it. Oh, yeah. Not the Jaguar guy. Yes. It took me a long time to realize that making amends is for my benefit, not for the benefit of the people that I did the harm to, other than repairing the damage when I can to those people. I don't think the fellowship stresses enough the idea that one, the promise has come midway through making the amends, and two, that it's mostly freedom from fear of retaliation from the people we've harmed, and that's the freedom that we get. So it's for my benefits. If I can keep that in mind when I'm making the amends, I'm not asking for forgiveness. I'm asking them to respond in a certain way and I'm reinforcing their resentment when they don't. Yeah, very good point. It is that I'm the winner. I'm whether the other person accepts it or rejects it or whatever. I'm a winner when I make the effort. The book makes it very clear it's about cleaning my side of the street and the response of the other person has nothing to do with the value of it. I mean, they may make it fun or not but otherwise they don't affect the quality of their men and so I learned that for doggone sure. If you're sitting on some and not moving on them, for God's sake move on. It is absolutely the key to me to what freedom's all about. Yeah, Mark? I'm going to ask you something because the words I've used here what's happened to me in the last four June June 16th I think it was 2006 I was in a motor vehicle accident I was hit by a drunk guy he was 20 years old I had 14 fractures I was on a coma 14 days I had a traumatic brain injury you know it took me 6 months 3 months before my weight bearing day so I could get up and walk I'm going through a stuff five years later four and a half years later and part of it is to do with my wife or ex-wife soon to be ex- wife I don't know which one right girl there was in court with me, Murray was in board with me Jack F was in boat with me there were whole bunch of people she dragged me to the board system, she's asked me to do family parenting this that the other right and I'm still going through the process I have one counselor who keeps telling me that I need to move forward right but I have Jack F who on the other hand says because last year I went to a retreat at the participation retreat and the topic was spirituality in the steps and I looked at Jack and I said Jack can you tell me where there's spirituality and the steps fit with me here. You know, Melred was facilitating it with Mahi, right? And he said, Juan, you're going through the crossfire right now. Right? And basically all you can do is lay low. Right? A few months ago we went to the Supreme Court and she put a hold on half a million dollars. Right? When I had the tie accident She said that I did the class to get an ICBC claim. On my late parent day, I'm walking to the brunches and she's asking me to carry a firm chapter 6, the 14 fractures. So I still have issues about that stuff, right? And I've kind of bitten into it like a pit bull. You know? And when you talk about forgiveness and stuff like that, right, You know, there's a process to that as well. The acceptance of the situation goes and then the letting go of it. In fact, I was talking to my friend Antonio and Bill and other guys here and asking them what did I do? Because Antonio knows me for, what, 15 years and he's seen the dynamics, right? He's been like a true brother to me. You know, throughout this accident, this one guy that has stood by me, he's come to pick me up, take me to meetings and all, right? So when do I stand here, right, I want to talk to you about this on a one-to-one basis, right. You know. But when I stand, you know, how can I get over this, right... Yeah, let's go into that. Great, thanks. Let's go in to that one-on-one. That's kind of a tricky trick. Yeah. Have you heard about the surrogate amends and what you're taking on them? The what can? Surrogate? surrogate? I have not. You've never heard that? No. Sounds like like beer. Sounds like left... That sounds like left-handed amends to me. I'd never hear it. I heard on the tape, they said you get someone that had passed away and you had to make an amends and you tell that person how that person is as a personality and then the person would sit down and you could make amends, say it was like your grandmother you know when your grandmother's in the ground and you wanted to make amens to her you'd get a woman that would act out like your grandmother and you'd give amends to her and I heard that on a date in Martin yeah it's a tricky deal when you've got to go I'll just tell you one quick thing about that it's not directly that I sponsor a guy who's about 25 years sober And before he came in, right after he came into AA, he lives out in the country and a little small child son of his was riding one of those big wheel type things, you know. There's very little traffic there. The child rode the thing out on the road and a guy came around the curb and struck the child and killed him. Now, it was a tragic accident, but there was no criminality. There was no arrest. There was nothing. But my guy simply will not let go. And you know, my hunch is that I've not been able to find out. I think the fellow driving the car was just a good old country boy who didn't know what to do. And there was criminal action whatsoever, none, whatever. And so my guy, I've told him it's kind of like we're talking about the country boy probably has no program of any kind. So I told him, I said why don't you take the initiative? This guy came into a restaurant where he and his, my guy and his wife were eating. He got sick and had to leave the restaurant. It's that bad. And I said, why don' t you take initiative and you reach out to him because he probably doesn't know how. can't get him to do it but he lives with that every day every day affects everything about 25 years sober he's not a dumb man at all but I cannot get him to do that so it really is a tough deal to deal with when you've got that kind of circuitous thing yeah yeah yeah my daughter died in that Kenilwax and up in higher Alaska, her and her friend. And they we still had their life jackets on. And they cleared every dead man in two to three minutes just before the day. Thank you. And I went back up ten years later for the anniversary my family went up and as I was standing there one day a guy came over to me and said are you Mr. Grant and I said yes he said I have to make amends to you, he's not in the program he said oh I'm going to make an amends to you and I says oh he said I remember the day your daughter and friend died over in that water he said I was going fishing that day and I was in a herd he said I heard the screaming but he said I didn't stop if he could have saved him or not I had no idea but I think that he made me more of a victim by telling me that than himself I think, you know, I wish I'd never known that. I would have been better off for it. You know, he relieved himself, but I'm very hurt over there. Yeah, that was clearly a lose-lose situation. It sure was. Yeah, it's unfortunate that people are not equipped. Some people just don't know how to do it. Well, no, very few people know how to do unless they're in something like we are. Yeah, but I can fully understand what you're talking about. That's for sure. We better move. Brian, real quick. Yeah, I am sorry about that. Brian, make it quick. We're going to have to move on tonight. Okay. Promises. The promises, is it that you get the promises in step nine? Can we talk about promises? Well, it says when we get halfway through. We don't even have to do it. Just get halfway though. Yeah, 8-9. If we've been painstaking about this phase of our development, it's just following up on 8- 9. We'll be amazed before we have through. And so just making a start starts to deliver. It's not one fell swoop, but I guarantee you every promise in there resonates in my life today. And so it happens, but it's a slow process. And some of them you can't fix. You've just got to live with it. There's nothing you can do about it. So, yeah, there it is. Well, let's run into something else here. This would be a – I do like that area because I think that truly is the freedom thing. An awful lot of people stop at this and don't get around to making amends and miss the freedom. I think I'm going to save this. I've got one here I hadn't picked out, but I'm gonna save it till in the morning and we'll finish up. I want to finish up with a flurry. I never did finish telling you what your homework was, but I'll go over to the board again. The, um, this is hope for Bill wrote this hope for something. Oh, relapses and let me just make some brief comment about that whole business of really we call them slips in the old days but relapse is a more fancy term but it's what you're talking about getting drunk is what it's about yeah you can call it whatever you want to that's what it is and that we do have you know the thing what looks to me like just from observation is that the more you slip, the more you slip. And it's just sort of a self-perpetuating kind of a thing that happens. I've never done it, but I've worked with God knows how many people who have, and it's tough to come back. Let me frame it with something that I'd sure like share with you that a lot of people who have who have slips and come back pursue an impossible fantasy that is that they're going to start where they left off and they won't it is absolutely impossible it can't happen so there's your there's only one first introduction day a you can get introduced to it a hundred times, but there's only one first one. There's only one First Honeymoon. You can have a lot of Honeymoons, but you'll only have one first. And so a lot people come back that age that have had trouble and they get into this vain notion that they're going to recapture what they had and And it won't happen. And I had a guy down in my area that I don't know, well, I don' t know why about it, but I reluctantly butt into somebody else's business. It has to be a good reason, like I think ought to. It's a good region. And so we had this guy. He was 32 years sober and drank. Now it's devastating for anybody, but when you're 32 years sober in the fellowship and you lose it, that is a long fall and a terrific trip back. And I didn't know this guy well, but I was generally aware of him and I'd see him floating around. He hadn't landed anywhere, he was just kind of floating around. And I heard his story from somebody else. got thinking about what is this guy going through you know trying to come back after 32 years in the program and uh so one night i just i grabbed he's over at our group and i stopped him i said can i talk to you about something he said sure and i i told him the thing that there's in a there's a guy quoted in the book you know william james was one of bill's favorite authors and one of his many favorite author, but he wrote a lot of stuff that Bill picked up on him. And one of the things, I wondered for years because I watched dear friends beat their brains out trying to get back into recovery to no avail. And so it always was bugging to me why that was so difficult. And I read something that William James wrote one time that cleared it up for me instantly and what he wrote was no state of mind once obtained and lost can ever be regained and be the same well my god that's absolutely true and what i just said you can't have a second run at a first thing i mean you can and so what james wrote was brilliant in its simplicity and the minute I read that, I understood the futility of that effort of coming back. And my God man, I'd seen more tragic cases than I cared to see of people who would wind up committing suicide and just the futability of the whole thing and go through that anguish. So I went to this guy and I said to him as gently as I knew how that I knew he was having a rough time and that and I cited James's quote and conversationally they decided it to him and he thanked me I knew notice he wasn't just warm and gushing but he wasn't angry I mean he said he really appreciated me talking with and I didn't like his follow-up you know he just did acted a little distant so I went to him again and said, I want to take you to lunch and I'll buy. He said, that's the deal. So we went and I bought two by the way. He's rich, but he couldn't get anything out of it. But anyway, he showed up and he said, before you start with whatever you wanted to meet about, he said let me tell you something. I owe you some amends. I said, for what? And he said, and he cited my conversation with him a little earlier. He said, I thought what you told me was that I didn't have a chance. That's how he interpreted what I was saying. I didn' t communicate it well. I told him he was hopeless and that he was screwed and he would not make it. That what he heard and he said i finally got it through my head what you were talking about and say he said I'm really glad that you want to get me to lunch I wanted to get that straight and uh yeah I'm not sponsoring but he said uh will you help me get into some activity and I said oh yeah yeah you're talking the right guy and so I've got him into a little bit of activity got him going to a prison yeah that'll that'll light up you your life when you start doing something but it but you see the dilemma that guy had now he's still sober yeah he's a member of our group and i hope he'll stay sober but he's got a huge comeback to make and uh if he can do that and re-groove and get back in my god i hope so but but what a deal eh that once you lose it and then try to get it it is really a loosey thing it's that thing of trying to recapture so what do you do with them I don't think there's any panacea for it one thing is that thing of understanding that that we've got to help people understand that they've got to get a brand new start What I always tell them is you won't get back what you had. You've got to go for more or settle for less. It won't be the same. So that's what I want them to focus in on, is that you've got it except the fact that you're going to have a new reality and you decide which it is. And that's the only thing I know to tell them. But as far as getting them involved, that's all the way I know it is because you've just got to get them to start. And I took that guy to prison so he quit thinking he was the worst case in town. I wouldn't even be able to see that a heck of a lot of people were ashamed of him. And so far he's doing okay, but it's a long trip back. So I certainly don't have any panacea for people who are chronic slippers. You have to just be honest with them and welcome them back, get them into the fold, try to get them in to some deep water. Yeah? Yeah, just to add to that, Tom, I had six years and I ended up rejoicing in the country. And the primary reason was because I never did the step. Because you had to do the step? Yeah, when I came back, the only thought, the beacon, the message that was coming through me loud and clear was that I had to get back to basics or I was going to die. Yeah. And so I did two development back-to-back in the first year and a half and it changed my life. And for the first two years, all I did was focus on home group, sponsorship, getting involved in my home group Really getting down to the nitty-gritty, back to basics, and I haven't looked back since 14 years ago. Life's just fantastic. Good deal. Good deal! You went for something more. You went with something more Well, I think what I did was just absolutely streamline it and just focus like a laser on what I needed to do to stay sober and just simplify the hell out of it Sure I've carried on in my sobriety since. All the stuff going on out in life and the world and jobs and money and all this stuff is all out here, but my center is AA and the principles of alcoholism. Yeah, I would suspect that's a sharp contrast to what it was before you left. Oh yeah? Yeah, good deal. Glad you're back. yeah in my home group there's been this on God maybe you find him or her or it now in the now all we have is the now there's a little pamphlet that we have yesterday, today and tomorrow all we had is the how like today and to me And that theme in my home group lately has been so meaningful, so powerful, so helpful. And I guess there's a sort of pop site, you know, be it now. But that line in the big book, may you find me now, is so powerful. If we start to focus on that, that's all we have. And in making amends, yesterday is like, I can't fix it. The future is a sunrise and maybe the night sky is making on me. But now is what I only have. Did you know that? Well, I couldn't agree more. The only thing we've got is right now. and that whole notion of finding God, I was an agnostic when I came in that I didn't believe anything. And over time, I came to believe that a power could restore me what the power was. And it was different than anything I'd ever run from in the past and it was very real. So mine was not a sudden, brutal jump it was a gradual kind of believing and very important for me was not only finding out but starting where I was yeah because I couldn't start as some faithful servant I was somebody just peeping through the fence so I had to start you know I knew there was a power and what I introduced could get get really connected to that I do that every day of my life I did it this morning on my innerspring mattress down in the cabin. I said, God, can't you beat this? Help me, man. Yeah, I have to do that all the time. That's for sure. Hi, Graham Alcott. I was thinking about, I got sober back in the States and when I moved back here, there's two big differences that I noticed about relapsing, and back there they don't welcome back, people aren't welcomed back. It's like you're either new or you're in a group. And I wanted to know what you thought about that because it seems to me a bit different than, there's nothing formal in the literature that talks about welcoming back and the second thing was um back there they counted days like 1 to 90 and then six months and it was a really big deal in every meeting i went to was the day count and then you know six months of people were really like i don't want to kill my days again you know like it was uh it seemed to be to keep people on the beam for for that really uncertain period and i don t see that up here so i want I'd like to know your opinion on those things. Well, the best I can tell that whole business about giving those little recognitions, they started with Sister Ignatia and she used to do the guys in St. Thomas. When they'd leave, she'd give them that little medal and bring it back before you drank it. I think that's where that whole idea of ship stuff started. There's no generic description for what we do back east. There's, as different as there are groups, you know our group, we really welcome people to our group. We don't care if they just got out of jail or Yale or whatever, but we welcome the people no matter where they come from. You'll find that more where you've got a real group as opposed to a casual gathering. You have that, you know, casual gatherings, who welcomes who? I mean, you don't even know who the members are. And so a lot of times in this casual way, I'll give you an example of what it looks like. Now, I'm kind of an outgoing type of fellow. That's how I got over being isolated when I started reaching out to other people. And so I make it a practice wherever I go. I was in Richmond, Virginia, and I was on a business trip, but I had a little time in the afternoon, so I went over there. because I knew where the club was, so I went over there. Typical afternoon club crowd. They're standing sitting around reading the paper or playing cards or whatever. And I was kind of like the psychiatrist in the burlesque show. I was watching the audience instead of the dancers, you know. So I went around and deliberately made physical contact with every person in the room, everyone. Didn't say anything. I just was wanting to see how this afternoon crowd would deal. I was decently dressed, but it shouldn't matter. But I went by, not one single person even acknowledged my presence. No hellos, no, you know, open that cup of coffee, nothing. Went over to the bar and the guy working there was talking to another fellow, sat there a few minutes. And he said, you want something? I said, yeah, I'd like a coffee. He said, I got a coffee now that's not me normally yeah, i got the coffee went back to the hotel and that night i was going to meet him so i came back over this time i did the same thing only instead of walking by i went to every table and interrupted whatever they were doing i didn't care what they were doig they were welcoming me is what they where doing whether they meant to or not So I'd just go over there, I'm Tom Ivester from Southern Plains, North Carolina. Well, it was a different club, eh? A different club. They were as warm and welcoming as me once I got them awake. You know, they were great. But they weren't used to doing that. They had a new member that night who was coming back to his first meeting. Who do you think they asked to take him to a meeting? Somebody you've got to wake up and lead to the car? No. They asked the guy from down south that looked alive. So I took the guy to his first meeting at that. The point is that, yeah, I think you've got to, I'm not going to stand there and watch the fellowship die. I'm going to move in. And if I see something needs to be done, I'll do it. I went to speak to a group a while back. I don't know, we're weird sometimes. I would speak to the group down in my area. And it looked like a dance, you know, when he went in. Everybody was lined up around the wall, just like you would at a high school dance or something. And so I went around, and I'm making a round, greeting everybody. And I'm welcoming them then to their group. And so as I got around the circle, a woman came across the floor. And she said, can I ask you something personal? I said, sure, what is it? She said, what do you sell? I said, I started to say I don't sell anything. I said oh wait a minute, yeah I do. I sell recovery and we got a real deal on it. And that's exactly right. I'm not going to stand by and watch Alcoholics Anonymous wither and die. If I see something needs to be done, I'm going to do it if it's not being done. I don' t care whose group it is. That's just what I want to be. I don't want to be part of an unwelcoming, unfriendly kind of a group of people. I just won't do that. But that's just me. I hope you'll do the same thing because sometimes it can absolutely – I'll tell you one other thing that I do just as a matter of course. I'm not a fan of just open discussion meetings where you talk about what the bitch took when she left and all this kind of stuff. And I'm just not a fan of that. And if I go into a meeting where I see that's what it is, I never leave. I'm going to work inside the tent. I'm not going to get out and throw rocks. I'm only going to sit down at the table. And if somebody makes the mistake of calling on me, or if it comes around and rings around a Rosie's deal, when it gets to me, I act like I'm deaf, dumb and blind that I haven't heard a single thing that's been said and then I'll start talking about what I think ought to be talked about in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and I'll tell you something I'm never insulting or confrontational to people or correcting people what I'm doing is demonstrating what I believe an AA group ought to be about, or what a member ought to about in a group and so i'll start talking about something has to do with recovery and not one single time have i ever seen it go back to what it was every single time yeah it started right back in on and you got a new deal i'm not the only guy frustrated there i mean my god man how many people want to sit around here commiserating about the poodle diet or something you know i mean you know he said i'm sorry about that and then move on you know but that that's what I do and because you'll find that. I'm not found in practically every state in the union, it's not just down east of you. I mean that's a widespread kind of a problem. I think every one of us we're either part of that coldness or we do something to try to make a difference and so that's what I do. And I'm here, I'm just one guy but by golly I'm one and I can demonstrate, you know, that there is a better way to do that thing. So that's what I do just as a web operator. It's fun sometimes with what happens. It really is just something about it. It's called leadership is what you call it. That's all it is. It's leadership. If you want to see it done, take the initiative and start making it get done. You don't have to boss anybody around. All you've got to do is set an example. Then the first thing you know, somebody won't talk to you. Yeah, it's amazing what happens. Anybody else? My name is Tevi and I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Tevi. I'm not a weak stoker yet and this is my second run at it. And I was recently in a community of AA that I wasn't thrilled about and now I've moved to Vancouver which has inspired me, but I'm scared that it's just a geographical change and that I'm not done. And I was wondering if maybe you could comment on that a little bit. Yeah. Well, geographical stuff is – and mobility is the order of the day because we're a mobile society. I tell you what I've had to do over how long were you sober first time okay well your big the biggest thing is to find a place where you feel comfortable you know that that's very important find a pleasure stop if anybody this older I'll tell you whatever had to as an older member and I wouldn't advocate this for you at this point obviously but what I'd moved I've moved a number of times in my recovery. Every time I get a new job, I usually have to relocate somewhere. I don't hear that. I hear more and more. Next week. but what I've had to do and the book describes it doggone well I told you at the end of the four pages is what do you do when you get to a town they were talking about starting at it which I've been doing I've got that privilege too but when I go to a Town I have a criteria for what I'm looking for in a group I want a three legacy group I'm not interested in a one dimensional group if the group is all about me and mine count me out because that's just a piece of one legacy and so when I go to a town I honest to God want to find a group but what I find is great difficulty in finding the three legacy groups and I hope it's different in Vancouver but it's sure not in North Carolina you know if somebody comes into my town looking for a group we've got a couple we might one of them that they can come and they'll find a solid AA meeting. But you find an awful lot that are just, in all honesty I'm not to be flying the flag, but it's just everything stimulates new thoughts with me. But I was doing a little work panel type of thing on a professional deal, and I was on a panel with a psychiatrist, and i did my thing and then he followed me and when he got up we it was on alcoholism deal with it when he get up he said i know he was the tiredest looking man i think i've ever seen you know what i mean you see people are just beat i mean just sagging and well that's what he looked like and he went up there and he said i worked with alcoholics and who've got other problems and some who just straight out colleagues He said, I know AA's the place for them. But he said, it honestly seems to me that when I send them to AA, they come back worse. And he said I don't understand it. What is that about? Well, I didn't want to answer. I just got off the stage and he followed me. Well, sitting there, nobody says anything. Well, a guy is desperately asking for help. And there were a number of AA members in there from that town. Nobody budged. So I stuck my hand up and I said, I understand what you're talking about. And the only thing I would tell you is that you're going to find out that you've got to understand everything that flies the flag is not AA. It covers a lot of stuff. And so you're gonna find some that are good healthy places. You're gonna to find some that are major in the illness. And I said, what I would suggest you do is get acquainted with two members that you trust, two members that you trusted that will give you good guidance. When you've got somebody and you want to know where to take them, call them. Tell them what you're dealing with. If you're dealin' with somebody that's paranoid, you're not gonna send him into some sort of confrontational kind of thing. You're gonna send them to a different kind of a meeting. So that's why if you don't expect him to get educated enough know what your door to go in but if you make contact in the fellowship get guidance on that just like we get guided from them on dealing with stuff so that i mean that's not directly addressing what you what you're talking about but at the main thing that's what i do even as an old timer when i go in i check out the terrain i find a group if i possibly can and if i can't i start one and uh that's why i've had to do for a lot of years now but shoot man hang in there and uh you can start with uh you know the guys that started the first group didn't have but a week so uh you're right up with them yeah so go on in there make a difference yeah what'll happen is you'll get moving real quick yeah Yeah, last one. Sometimes when I go to meetings and I don't even hear a word that's said in my mind just like a squirrel or whatever, you know, how do you get focused in your meetings? Because sometimes they're happening. It's never happening to me. I'll tell you what's helped me. Listening is an art. It is an act. And it is a powerful, powerful arts. I learned the value of this, I was taking a college speech course and I got that as listening. What's the importance of listening? I had a good friend who taught listening in workshops you know that it's a powerful deal where you when you give somebody your attention you're giving them yourself and it is a huge gift to give somebody your undivided attention. What a gift you can give. You can actually, I've done it, you can actually influence a speaker by the way you listen. It sounds weird but if you want them to talk about something, all you got to do is just respond to what you want to hear and ignore what you don't. And the first thing you know he's going to be singing your song. I ought not to be telling you that since I do a lot of speaking. I don't have people going to have me singing Dixie up here or something like that. But that's what I do, is just recognize the value of it and learn how to listen to people. This most important gift you can give somebody is your undivided attention, a powerful thing. You can influence literally what somebody does. So I think it's a great tool. Well, we've got to take a break because the boss man has spoken.