The Freedom Steps and the Weight of Heavy-Duty Guilt – Tom I.

Thank you, Bill. What really happened now, the committee did a time study and they calculated we'd get out of here Tuesday at noon. So they said, get on up, boy. So we, yeah, just to add to one thing that what he said, when we're on a particular topic, let's focus that topic. Then we'll move through more effectively, probably more efficiently. That's really what we're trying to do because you can, and I'm a glutton for it. We could go on for a week literally and not even slow down. But if we just, whatever topic we're on, just to try to stay within that bracket, then we'll moved to another one pretty quickly. What time we quit? What time is it? 22 o'clock. Oh, yeah, great. 22 o´clock. That's for poor folks. Like me. I can't do it. Five till 12. Will you give me a high sign in case I happen to get caught up in what I'm doing? Okay, I appreciate that. That's what they did at the International. You know, I was just getting ready to start, and that guy was over there. So I've responded to that. Well, good session, guys. When I finished the session sweating, I think it worked out pretty good. So I appreciate the engagement. I really like to see that. The old saying, you get out of what you put in it is so true. Can I just ask one question? Yeah. I'm going to call up Nick Branson. It's over today by Greg Scott and I'll call him. I just want to know where the circle started when we stand up and do this rally prayer. Now, I've heard now, I don't know if it's true or not, some group in Texas, some Texans stood up and said why don't we all just hold hands like the Lord's Prayer now I don't know if that's true but I would just like to know all it is is an opinion but I think like a lot of relatively moderate stuff started in treatment it's a part of what they do in group therapy to get the trust and get the level of communication up chanting, same thing same kind of stuff I think most of that originated when we started getting an influx from that kind of a source. I go to Texas an awful lot and they swore to me that they had never done anything to wrinkle the water. I trust them because they'll shoot you if you don't. I'll tell you one thing. There's subtle ways to deal with stuff. In our group, we didn't much like it. If you read the promises and then these exact promises and then the hallelujah chorus says we think well we didn't like that but we didnít want to create a brouhaha so we just took that part off the end of the promises and cut it off itís really funny to watch people reading didnít he have to call a business meeting we just did it thereís always a way to do stuff with what it was a booby trap I bet he'll never bring me anything else thank you buddy Yeah, I appreciate that. Oh, man, yeah. Yeah, I'm not as big as I look. Got it? Yeah, I think that's going to work great. Good deal, buddy. It's what I was trying to do and I really appreciate that open interstate we do but it really does kind of wreak havoc with the schedule. The, I was trying to get into focus on the big book step type stuff we were working yesterday then we'll move into the other phases I just kind of marked them out So we'll try to focus on those particular areas. And I want to mention a little bit, we're talking about like the thing we read last night about David and what happened to him and about getting involved in the whole program. And we talked a fair amount about that on the amends process and how critical that is. And it's just a part of the deal. but a vitally important part of the deal. And I've had a good, in fact, Brian and I have had a good talk about amends over a cup of coffee that I bought, by the way. So it is a tremendously important part of the program. Let me run that down to you because I didn't do it there you know yesterday that But, yeah, I told you that I was institutionalized because of doing the thing that God knows alcoholics do every day around the world. And that's causing folks to die just by that stupid thing of driving blind drunk. And, you know, that was a kind of thing. I'll just walk you through that just to kind of illustrate how it can work if you really try to do what's laid out in this and really try the practice program. I was obviously, well, I don't know if it's obvious or not, but I was tremendously shattered. I mean, I simply really, really could not handle that very well. But even just as a human being, even as a drunk, I knew that I needed to make some kind of gesture to the families that were left. It was two young people, two different families, and I knew I needed make amends. And I had some of the guys, you know, street people are funny people. They'll rob you one day, but they'll lay down for you the next day. And so I had some guys that came in from the street just to come over by and see me. And I asked one of them to contact the families for me and ask if they would be willing to hear from me. Both families quite understandably said no. That was very understandable. And so now that was before I ever heard of AA. Just as a human being, I did that. But they said no. So that closes the deal. It's like it says in the amends part in the book that we don't relieve our pain at somebody else's expense and we can't force the issue to people that are not ready to accommodate it. And so I had to respect that. But that doesn't make you go away. And so when I got in the program, started hearing about amends, my God, I listened hungrily to everything I heard. Tried about everything I heard that made any sense at all and you know a certain amount I could do directly to the victims in terms of you know praying with their image in mind, writing to them, you know, a number of things like that. Also made up, I don't mess with the steps much at all but on the eighth step I added something to a step and that's unusual but where it says we made a list of people who were harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Behind willing, I put the word opportunity. And I added that as a part of my prayer was for willingness and opportunity. Now I promise you I never did anything to make it happen. Absolutely nothing. I continued with the direct, I made up my mind to do indirect amends to them. You know that the book refers to indirect amends. And you can do it. Sometimes you can't make, like a victim in something like that, you can'T make direct amends, so make indirect. And I'll just finish that part with, it's amazing, that accident happened on the 3rd of May of 56. You could not believe the number of things that have happened on 3rd May that were absolutely undeniably directly related to what happened. And, you know, I spoke to 5,000 young people in one day, just about the age of the ones that died in that accident. And I spoke about the drunk driving and the hazards and stuff like this and about alcoholism. And I didn't plan that. You know, two groups of 2,500, I planned none of it whatsoever. I did a televised interview on the public television thing that, yeah, I did an anonymity would be absolutely guaranteed because, I mean, I didn't mind saying to the world, but I really believe in anonymity and the value of not only to me but to the fellowship. And so he promised he'd be anonymous, change my voice, use that, I call it, Rubik's Cube thing where you put the colors there and they kind of move. He said, nobody will be able to identify you. And he didn't know alcoholics, I swear. That thing, several months later, I got a call from a woman in North Dakota. And she said, Tom, did you make a movie? I said have you lost your mind of course I didn't make a move what are you talking about and she said well I saw this thing and then it dawned on me I said yeah I know what you're talking about and I did I said well how did you know it was me there was supposed to be nothing identifiable she said I recognized your nose I said my god girl is it that bad she said it wasn't pretty bad but that was just one of many and just on and on and on with so many things that have come up spontaneously and I've never planned a single one everything that happens continues to. So indirect amends and I'll let you know a little secret, it's part of what I'm doing here. I don't have zeal ten times that of an average man just because I'm a dedicated idiot. They're direct amends associated. You'd be amazed at how many people I meet going around all over the place that have done something like I did and quote got away with it without exception of the most tortured people that I've ever seen and just the opportunity to deal with and who knows you know it could be an influencing factor to some people so it's a part of the indirect not a guilt trip but it's just a part of the indirect amendment the real question was the families though and and uh because the the families were they had already said we don't want to hear from this fellow and so i put that willing in there and prayed that way never knew if anything would happen and so a couple years after i was out something like that i got a phone call from an attorney in flint mission and uh identified himself, and he said, I'm representing the families in that accident you had here. And he said they have entered a lawsuit based on the notion that what happened wasn't really your fault, that young folks were trying to cross the street and they jumped back to avoid another vehicle jumped into mine. Well, just a natural human reaction, I thought, oh my God, it's like I'm getting sort of pardon you know in that thing and it but that didn't last two seconds i thought my god that doesn't change anything you can't mitigate some guy driving blind drunk down the main street of a city there is no mitigation for that i mean that just speaks for itself and and so uh so he told me they were going to do that he said they they think they would like to have you come up and testify at the trial. And I said, well, I'd be happy to do anything, but I've got nothing to offer. You know, I mean, my testimony at my own trial, I couldn't even testify there other than just say, I'm sorry, I don't know. And that's the hell of blackouts is I don' t know. And so I said I'd b e glad to come. They said, Well, he said, They think it'll help. I said Okay, I'll be there. So I went. Now you talk about an eerie feeling for a thousand reasons, but one, I walked in, the hearing was to be held in the same courtroom where I was convicted. And boy, you talk about an eerie feeling. It's like walking across your own grave almost and walking back in there. Sat down and they had a section for families and then I sat in the some section but separated. You don't normally connect offender and offended. That just isn't done. And so they went through the trial. I testified exactly like I knew it would be. I'm sorry, I don't know. I do everything I can to help, but I don' t know. And I know this is not supposed to happen, but I prayed for opportunity and I got it. And I didn' t no it. I'm sitting there. I had no earthly idea I'd be able to do anything. Families and I hadn' t spoken to each other. And the bailiff came over, but the guy that was in charge of the court, decorum of the court, he came over and he said something to the families and then gestured and they went down the hall. So I figured it was a potty break. And so they went Downing Hall and then he came back and came over to me and extended the same courtesy, I thought. He said, come on down. So I went down. I tell you, if you pray for opportunity, you better be prepared because you never know when it's going to happen. I went down that hall and thinking I'm going to the john And He came to a door He opened it and gestured And so I looked in It doesn't take long to read a scene I stepped in And all at once I saw The two families one in one corner One Across on the other side they weren't together They were separate And the minute I saw it man it looked like the whole world Was a flashbulb Just the total shock you know of that and my first thought was run run it was not step in i'll promise you that and uh i said well to myself looks like your prayers have been answered buddy either move in or boogie and so i went in went over to the first family ask if i could speak to them and i swear to god i'll never understand it but they welcome me as if i were family i mean absolutely just like family warm loving forgiving i wasn't asking for anything except for them to let me talk to them and so they were absolutely unbelievable you know we hugged each other and all this kind of stuff and i thought man oh my this is something and then went over to the other family and they were um they were an eastern european family for the first-generation immigrant from somewhere in the eastern block. And so I went over, and they were a paternal group, you know, and so they were in a circle. And when they saw me coming across the floor, they knew what I was doing, I guess, and they figured it out. The father stepped out of the circle and met me. We shook hands, and I said, would it be possible to speak to the family? And he went back into the family group. ask our guests and they did a group conference and he came back out and he said no, you can't speak to the family speak to me I said okay and did, I just said to him everything I wanted to say, very courteous very considerate and we got through, he said we can't forgive and I wasn't asking for forgiveness I was just asking to let me speak to you but nonetheless that's what he said we can't forgive please don't bother us again well that's been many years and I've never had another opportunity who knows may someday all of us are getting pretty old but if it comes I'll be ready if not then I will have done exactly what Step said we make the amends wherever possible except when it would do so it injures them or others And that doesn't include me. That includes them. And so I've had to leave it there. But it takes care of everything I can do without violating the principle and taking advantage of somebody. So I share that because I know that I'm not the only guy that's carried around heavy-duty guilt where meds are needed. And I think I made it pretty clear in a couple of those cases I mentioned that it is my fervent belief that freedom never comes as long as we're dragging those things that we wish we could forget. I don't think it ever comes. You'll always have that little thing to kind of eat your lunch on a regular basis. And so I do call those the freedom steps because I think that's exactly what they lead to and being able to move on to getting the business, the living underway. I'm just going to skip through some of that now and on any of these things they're dealing with, if you have any questions, just give me a signal and we'll stop. Let's just stick to the topic on that and that one's about the amends process. To anybody who wants to comment or question anything on that thing, have at it. Yeah? I have a quick question. Just about, you know, you were saying about, do the opportunities arise? How many of the incidents did the opportunity arise? Yes, but when was that? Like about how many years period from the accident to the time you took your steps till the time that you made the step nine? My question is, did you push it? Did you push him? I didn't have to. No, I didn' t have to . . . They'd already said, don't come to us. They'd always say, you have to honor that. And so I didn'. I just prayed for . . ." It took time. Well, I prayed for opportunity. I could explain their behavior, but both families agreed to see me. And that opportunity, they didn' d plan that trial just so I could be there. But it was a marvelous opportunity. It was a marvellous opportunity. How many years was it, Tom? After the accident was in 1956, when was this lawsuit dropped? Do you remember? Yeah, it would have been probably the early 60s. Oh. Yeah, yeah, because I couldn't do anything while I was locked up directly, and I was able to do stuff indirectly. But yeah, I was out, I think I was probably two years on the street when that came up, a year and a half or two years. So in other words, what you're saying is time makes the difference? Time makes a difference. I was ready as soon as I read the amends steps. I was already then. But the situation was not ready then. Because you placed yourself in a position at one point in time in step three, right? By turning your will and life into care of God. And then you waited for the opportunity to rise. But in between there was a gap, a big gap, right. Well, I could have made amends before I got in there, but it would have been crude and ugly. I wouldn't have known how to do it. Yeah, it would've been modeling emotional stuff. It would not have been clear communication. you know what program prepared me to be able to make honest amends and not impose more grief on people and so that I think that was a value of the time but do you know the steps lead us to the process I was prepared to make amends in a healthy way and so when that opportunity came it had no hesitation whatsoever yeah you're just a man it was an automatic thing just like a mission in the earlier session, each step prepares us for the next step. And, you know, like six gets us ready to get rid of the defects. Seven guides us to eight and nine. And I think that's God's answer to the prayer, you Know. And then so it just falls in. Sorry? Yeah, yeah, it took a while. It took a little while. Yeah, and it was just a matter of the timing. I mean, you can't yank around a family that's been into that much grief. You can't yak them around. And I don't think anybody set that up just so I could make amends. Well, maybe they did, but it wasn't anybody in the court. It was my boss. Yeah, my boss had taken me to a lot of places I wasn't supposed to go, including there. Tremendous, obviously very valuable kind of a thing. And just like I mentioned, people I run into who've never dealt with that thing, it doesn't go away. I guarantee you that doesn't goes away. And those are tortured folk, tortured folk. Anybody else? Yeah. Did you have as much patience 30 years ago as you do today? Say it again now. Did you had as much patients and understanding in the program 30 years of what you do to this day? I think I did. I really do. Well, you've got to realize where I started from. I wasn't an active businessman or a hardworking somebody. I'm dead meat. I'm done. And so I didn't have any impatience much. Everything for me was beyond my imagination. So I didn'T have a lot of trouble with impatience. I really wasn't. when I was serving my time. I mean, I hated it, but I made every day count. It was worthwhile. Every day was a rewarding day for me, even in those conditions. And so I never have had a... I got a lot of patience with me. I'm not always patient with other people. But no, it never was. It never was a huge problem to me. And something like making amends, I was well aware that I had to wait for the time. And I wasn't sure it would ever happen. I was resigned to that. I was not sure it could ever happen, and when it did, man, I'm telling you, that was just unbelievable. But it happened exactly the way I just told you, exactly that way. It's a good thing I wasn' planning the recovery. I doubt I would have made the plan like it turned out to be, but that had introduced me to life I didn't even know existed but all of that's part of it you know I was talking to Brian we were talking about amends that was tough emotionally tough to deal with that but some of the most difficult amends that I had to make were to my own family that my family, just like my mother for example she thought I was a fine boy she never believed I was an alcoholic I was living in her house one day she was on the phone with a neighbor no in a room with a neighbor not on the phones and they were talking about their prized children and the woman said why does your son travel so much and mother said oh he's in that A thing and she said oh is he an alcoholic my mother said oh no no And he was always a good boy. What are you going to do with Bothers? It's amazing, but that was hard. I almost had to hold her. I was telling him, I almost had to fold her to make amends. Yeah, I had a picture of there. It was a Canadian photograph at Niagara Falls or the Queen or somebody, and I was admiring it in her house. And I said, you know, that's a beautiful picture. She said, You ought to like it. You sent it to me. I said... You've got to be kidding me. I had no clue. And one day she was telling me how it wasn't that bad. I was really pretty good. She said... You know, you sent me that money for all those years. And I says, What are you talking about? So when I'd gone in the military, I must have been drunk. I signed over what they called an allotment to her. She got a check every month that it was off defending my country, laying flat on my back. And my first instinct, old habits die hard, my first instict was, well, give me the money. But I didn't do it. I tell you, it's tricky with that bit of stuff. But it's amazing the difficulty people have accepted. Because the thing is, it was telling him, it's like you're having a sword fight with somebody with no sword. They have no program. I have a program, so the responsibility is overwhelmingly in my court, not them. And so I've got to be patient and help them understand the process. they don't understand it. It is a foreign thing, they're not used to that. They're used to getting me out of jail. So very, very I had more difficulty with them I'll tell you one other one, it was an amiss thing that had a lot of meaning to me. Early on when I first hit the street I'd had a boss one time that not one of the nicest guys I've met in my life and I ripped him off for a little bit of money. It wasn't much I mean, he had a lot of money and I didn't, so it seemed just to me to take the money. And so he was on my mind. He was high on my list of people I needed to see just because he was such a good guy. And so when I got out, it wasn't a whole lot of money, but I didn' t have that much. So I borrowed the money, and this is not good business unless you' re talking about amends. I borrowed the money to make amends for taking the money and so I went over there to the place where I'd worked and I thought sure everybody would just jump on me at the minute of the walking door you scoundrel, you finally have gotten justice or something I walked in, the old secretary had been there longer than the building and she didn't know me probably looked different but I said I'd like to see Mr. Brown if I could that's the owner, she said well he's very busy and I said well I understand that but I need to see him it's about some money I owe him and she said well that's The Magic Word so she said I'll see if he can see you so he went in and he agreed to see me and I went in, he was really a nice man one reason he was a hound, he's a really nice man and so I went in and He was sitting behind a huge desk and he was a small guy, but he's sitting behind that little desk, glasses on. He didn't know me either. I've been carrying it for years and he's sleeping every night. So anyway, I went in and told him what I was doing and he didn't catch on at first, you know. And so I told him it's about some money, money I owe you that I ripped off when I was here. And he had absolutely no memory of any of it. And she said, well look, I appreciate you coming in, but I can't take that money. I said, what do you mean you can't take it? It's yours. That's not mine. And he said it'll screw up my bookkeeping quite frankly. I said I'm sorry about that, but it screwed up my life and I've got to do something. I hadn't told him the preliminaries of it. I told him, I said let me tell you really why I'm doing this now. I just sort of like going in man to man. So I told him what I was doing. He reached up to his glasses off, he said well I'll be darned. He said I've been in business 40 years I have never seen anything like this. I said me either. But we hit it off and from then on every time I'd go to Charlotte where that business was, he had a certain place he liked to eat lunch and I would always go in there if I was in Charlotte and if he would see me excuse me he would always come across the dining room and greet me and say how's that work of yours going you know that was his code I said great that's the amends the healing, the reunion the cleanness absolutely I think vital stuff I'm sorry all this is jagged but I dwell on that a little bit because it is, and I appreciate you asking that is really to me a very vital part of recovery. There's a lot of things that ain't I was at a conference somewhere down in Texas and I saw a beautiful jaguar sitting over there and boy it was a handsome rod I went over and took a look on the front of the vanity plate it said step 9 I said oh I've got to meet this boy I found him and I said boy that's a great jag you've got there tell me about that plate he said well I bought that car and paid for it and that's amends to me laughter I said well it's a good trial buddy but it has nothing to do with amends don't dignify it with that you just bought a car for God's sake don't crash it laughter so anybody else see anything on the men yeah right he took it oh yeah not the jaguar guy yes it took me a long time to realize that making amends is for my benefit not for the benefit of the people that I did the harm to other than repairing the damage when I can to those people I don't think the fellowship stresses enough the idea that one promise has come midway through making the amends, and two that it's mostly freedom from fear of retaliation from the people that we harm and that's the freedom that we get so it's for my benefit if I can keep that in mind when I'm making the amend, I'm not asking for forgiveness, I're not asking them to respond in a certain way, and I'm nicht reinforcing their resentment when they don't yeah, very good point, it is it's that I'm the winner I'm the winner. Whether the other person accepts it or rejects it or whatever, I'm a winner when I make the effort. It's about, the book makes it very clear, it's about cleaning my side of the street and the response of the other person has nothing to do with the value of it. I mean they may make it fun or not but otherwise they don't affect the quality of their men and so I learned that for doggone sure. If you're sitting on some and not moving on them, for God's sake move on it is absolutely the key to me to what freedom is all about yeah Mark I'm going to ask you something personal what has happened I appreciate personal stuff of what you saw too right what's happened to me in the last four June June 16th I think it was 2006 I was in a motor vehicle accident I was hit by a drunk guy he was 20 years old I had 14 fractures. I was in a coma for 14 days and a traumatic brain injury. You know, it took me six months, three months before my weight bearing didn't try to get up and walk. I'm going through stuff five years later, four and a half years later and part of it is to do with my wife or ex-wife or soon to be ex- wife, I don't know which one. Right? Bill there was in court with me. Murray was in court with me. Jack F was in court with me. There were a whole bunch of people she's dragging to the court system. She's asked me to do family parenting, this, that, the other. Right? And I'm still going through the process. And I have one counselor who keeps telling me that I need to move forward. Right? But I have Jack F who on the other hand says, because Because last year I went to a retreat, I had a participation retreat and the topic was the spirituality in the steps and I looked at Jack and I said, Jack, can you tell me where there's a spirituality in steps with me here? You know, Milrid was facilitating it with Mahi, right? And he said, Ma'am, you're going through the crossfire right now, right, and basically all you can do is lay low, right. A few months ago, we went to the Supreme Court and she's put a hold on half a million dollars. Right? When I had the car accident, she said that I did the car incident to get an ICBC claim. On my way to Paris, I'm walking with crutches and she asked me to carry furniture on the stairs with 14 fractures. So I still have issues about that stuff, right? And I've kind of written into it like a pit bull. You know? And when you talk about, you know, forgiveness and stuff like that, right? You know, there's a process to that. The acceptance of the situation was, and then the letting go. In fact, I was talking to my friend Antonio and Bill and other guys here and asking them what did I do? Because Antonio knows me for, what, 15 years, and he's seen the dynamics, right. He's been like a true relative of it. You know, throughout this action, he's one guy that has stood by me. He's come to pick me up, take me to meetings and all, right? So where do I stand here? I want to talk to you about this on a one-to-one basis, right, you know? But where doI stand here, youknow, how do I get over this,right? Yeah, let's go into that. Great, thanks. Let's go in to that one-on-one. That's kind of a tricky trick. Yeah. Have you heard about the surrogate amends and what you're taking on them? What can? surrogate amends? Surrogate? Have not. You've never heard that? No. Sounds like beer. Sounds like... That sounds like left-handed amends to me. I'd never heard of it. Someone explained to me, and I heard it on a tape. They said you get someone that had passed away and you had to make an amends and you tell that person how that person is as a personality and then the person would sit down and you could make amends, say it was like your grandmother you know when your grandmother's in the ground and you wanted to make amens to her you get a woman that would act like your grandmother and you can make aments to her and I heard that on a date in Martin yeah it's a tricky deal when you got to go I'll just tell you one quick thing about that not directly that I sponsor a guy who's about 25 years sober and before he came in right after he came into AA. He lives out in the country and a little small child, son of his was riding one of those big wheel type things you know and there's very little traffic there. The child rode the thing out on the road and a guy came around the curb and struck the child and killed him and now it was a tragic accident but there was no criminality There was no arrest. There was nothing. But my guy simply will not let go. And, you know, my hunch is, and I've not been able to find out, I think the fellow driving the car was just a good old country boy who didn't know what to do. And there was no criminal action whatsoever. There was none, whatever. And so my guy, I've told him, it's kind of like we're talking about, the country boy probably has no program of any kind. So I told him, I said, why don't you take the initiative? This guy came into a restaurant where he and my guy and his wife were eating. He got sick and had to leave the restaurant. It's that bad. And I said why don'T you take this initiative and you reach out to him because he probably doesn't know how. But I can't get him to do it. But he lives with that every day, every day. Affects everything about him. 25 years sober, he's not a dumb man at all. But I cannot get him to do that. So it really is a tough deal to deal with when you've got that kind of circuitous thing. Yeah, tough stuff. Yeah, Martin? Tom, I had a person make amends to me. And I have a tough time with him. My daughter died in a canoe accident up in Ohio, Alaska, her and her friend. And they still had their life jackets on when they went to water. And they figured they were dead. I mean, two to three minutes before we were dead, and I went back up ten years later for the anniversary my family went up and as I was standing there one day a guy came over to me he said are you Mr. Grant and I said yes he said I have to make amends to you he's not in program right now he said oh I'm going to make an amends you. And I said, oh. He said, I remember the day your daughter and friend died over in that water. He said I was going fishing that day, and I was in a herd. He said he heard the screaming, but he said I didn't stop. You know, if he could have saved your mother or not, I had no idea. but I think that he made me more of a victim by telling me that than himself I think that you know I wish I'd never known that I wish it was better out there you know he relieved himself but I get I'm very hurt yeah that was clearly a lose-lose situation it sure was it's unfortunate people are not equipped some people just don't know how to do it very few people know how to do unless we're in something like we are I can fully understand what you're talking about that's for sure we better move I am sorry about that make it quick we're going to have to move on the promises is it that you get the promises step 9 well it says when we get halfway through we don't even have to do it just get halfway through if we've been painstaking about this phase of our development it's just following up on 8 and 9 we'll be amazed before we're half through and so just making a start it starts to deliver it's not one fell swoop but I guarantee you every promise in there resonates in my life today. And so it happens, but it's just a slow process. Some of them you can't fix. You've just got to live with it. There's nothing you can do about it. So yeah, well let's run into something else. This would be I do like that area because I think that truly is the freedom thing. An awful lot of people stop at this and don't get around making amends and miss the freedom I think I'm going to save this I got one here I hadn't picked out but I'm gonna save it till in the morning and we'll finish up I want to finish up with a flurry I never did finish tell you what your homework was but I'll go over to the board There's this hope for, Bill wrote this, hope for something. Oh, relapses. And let me just make a brief comment about that whole business of relapse. We call them slips in the old days, but relapse is a more fancy term. But what you're talking about getting drunk is what it's about. You can call it whatever you want to, but that's what it is. And we do have, you know, what it looks to me like just from observation is that the more you slip, the more you slip and it's just sort of a self-perpetuating kind of a thing that happens. I've never done it but I've worked with God knows how many people who have and it is tough to come back. Let me frame it with something I'd sure like to share with you that a lot of people who have slips and come back pursue an impossible fantasy. That is that they're going to start where they left off, and they won't. It is absolutely impossible. It can't happen. So there's only one first introduction day. AA. You can get introduced to it a hundred times, but there's only one first one. There's only one First Honeymoon. You have a lot of Honeymoons, but you'll only have one first one. And so a lot people come back to AA that have had trouble and they get into this vain notion that they're going to recapture what they had and it won't happen. And there's I had a guy down in my area that I don't know well, I don' t know why about it but I reluctantly butt into somebody else's business it has to be a good reason like I think I ought to it's a good region and so we had this guy he was 32 years sober and drank now it's devastating for anybody but when you're 32 years sober in the fellowship and you lose it that is a long fall and a terrific trip back and i didn't know this guy well but i was generally aware of him and i'd see him floating around he hadn't landed anywhere he was just kind of floating around and i heard his story from somebody else and i got thinking about what is this guy going through you know trying to come back after 32 years in the program and uh so one night i just i grabbed he's over at our group and i stopped him i said can i talk to you about something he said sure and i i told him the thing that there's in a there's a guy quoted in the book you know william james was one of bill's favorite authors and one of his many favorite authors but he he wrote a lot of stuff that bill picked up on it and one of the things i do i wondered for years because i watched dear friends beat their brains out trying to get back into recovery to no avail and so it always was bugging to me why that was so so difficult and i read something that william james wrote one time that cleared it up for me instantly and what he wrote was no state of mind once obtained and lost can ever be regained and be the same well my god that's absolutely true what i just said you can't have a second run at a first thing i mean you can and so what james wrote was brilliant in its simplicity, and the minute I read that, I understood the futility of that effort of coming back. And my God, man, I'd seen more tragic cases than I cared to see of people who would wind up committing suicide, and just the futability of the whole thing, and go through that anguish. So I went to this guy, and I said to him as gently as I knew how, that I knew he was having a rough time. And that and I cited James's quote and conversationally cited it to him and he thanked me. I noticed he wasn't just warm and gushing but he wasn'T angry. I mean he said he really appreciated me talking with him. But I didn't like his follow up. You know he just acted a little distant. So I went to him again and said, I want to take you to lunch and I'll buy. He said, that's the deal. So we went and I bought too, by the way. He's rich, but he couldn't get anything out of it. But anyway, he showed up and he said, before you start with whatever you wanted to meet about he said let me tell you something I owe you some amends. I said for what? and he said and he cited my conversation with him a little earlier he said I thought what you told me was that I didn't have a chance that's how he interpreted what I was saying I didn' t communicate it well I told him he was hopeless and that he was screwed and he would not make it and that's what he heard and he says I finally got it through my head what you were talking about and he said, I'm really glad that you wanted to get me to lunch. I wanted to Get That Straight. I'm not sponsoring him, but he said will you help me get into some activity? And I said, oh yeah. You're talking to the right guy. So I got him into a little bit of activity. Got him going to a prison. That'll light up your life when you start doing something like that. But you see the dilemma that guy had? Now, he's still sober. He's a member of our group. I hope he'll stay sober. But he's got a huge comeback to make. And if he can do that and re-groove and get back in, my God, I hope so. But what a deal, eh? That once you lose it and then try to get it, it is really an elusive thing that they're trying to recapture. so what do you do with them I don't think there's any panacea for it one thing is that thing of understanding that that we've got to help people understand that they've got to get a brand new start what I always tell them is you won't get back what you had, you've gotto go for more or settle for less it won't be the same that's what I want them to focus in on is that you've got to accept the fact that you're going to have a new reality and you decide which it is and that's the only thing I know to tell them but as far as getting them involved that's all the way I know it is you've gotta get them to start and I took that guy to prison so he could quit thinking he was the worst case in town I wouldn't be able to see that heck of a lot of people were worse than him and so far he's doing okay but it's a long trip back so I don't I certainly don't have any panacea for people who are chronic sleepers. You have to just be honest with them, welcome them back, get them into the fold, try to get them in some deep water. Yeah? Just to add to that, Tom, I had six years and I ended up reoccurring. And the primary reason was because I never did the stash. Because you had to do the stache. Yeah, when I came back, the only thought, the beacon message that was coming through to me was that I had to get back to basics or I was going to die. And so, I did two developers back-to-back in the first year and a half, and it changed my life. And for the first two years all I did was focus on home group sponsorship, getting involved in my home group, really getting down to the meaty-gritty back-of-basics. And I haven't looked back since. It's been 14 years, and my life's just fantastic. Good deal. Good deal! You went for something more. You went for something more. I think what I did was I just absolutely streamlined it and just got focused like a laser on what I needed to do to stay sober and just simplify the hell out of it and just get right at the basics and that's the way I've carried on in my sobriety since. All this stuff going on out in life and the world and and jobs, and money, and all this stuff is all out here. But my center is AA, and the principles of alcoholism. Yeah, I would suspect that's a sharp contrast to what it was before you left. Yeah, yeah, good deal. Glad you're back. Yeah, maybe in my home group, there's been this discussion on God may find him or her or it now in the now all we have is the now there's a little pamphlet that we have yesterday, today and tomorrow all we had is the now like today and to me that theme in my home group lately has been so meaningful, so powerful so helpful and I guess there's this sort of hot site you don't need it now but that line in the big book, may you find it now is so powerful if we sort of focus on that that's all we have and in making amends yesterday is like I can't fix it the future is well I could agree more the only area we've got is right now and in that old notion of finally I was an agnostic when I came in that I didn't believe anything and over time I came to believe that a power could restore me what the power was and it was different than anything I'd ever run from in the past and it was very real so mine was not a sudden brutal jump it was a gradual kind of believing and very important for me was not only finding out but starting where I was because I couldn't start as some faithful servant. I was somebody just peeping through the fence, so I had to start. I knew there was a power, and what I had do is get really connected to that. I do that every day of my life. I did it this morning on my innerspring mattress down in the cabin. I said, God, can't you beat this? Help me, man. Yeah, I have to do that all the time, that's for sure. Hi, Graham Alcott I was thinking about I got sober back in the States and when I moved back here there's two big differences that I noticed about relapsing and back there they don't welcome back people aren't welcomed back it's like you're either new or you're in a group and I wanted to know what you thought about that because it seems to me a bit different than there's nothing formal in the literature that talks about welcoming back. And the second thing was back there they counted days, like one to 90 and then six months and it was a really big deal and every meeting I went to was the day count and then, you know, six months and people were really like, fuck, I don't want to count my days again, you Know? It seemed to be to keep people on the theme for that really uncertain period, and I don't see that up here. So I want to know your opinion on those things. Well, yeah, best I can tell, that whole business about giving those little recognitions, they started with Sister Ignatia, and she used to do the guys in St. Thomas. When they'd leave, she'd give them that little medal, so you'd bring it back before you drank. I think that's where that whole idea of ship stuff started. We, uh, there's no generic description for what we do back East, you know. There's as different as there are groups. Our group, we really welcome people to our group. We don't care if they just got out of jail or Yale or whatever, but we welcome the people no matter where they come from. You'll find that more where you've got a real group as opposed to a casual gathering. You know, that casual gathering, who welcomes who? You don't even know who the members are. And so a lot of times in this casual meeting, I'll give you an example of what it looks like. Now, I'm kind of an outgoing type of fellow. That's how I got over being isolated when I started reaching out to other people. And so I make it a practice wherever I go. I was in Richmond, Virginia. and I was on a business trip but I had a little time in the afternoon so I went over to, I knew where a club was so I was sitting around reading the paper playing cards or whatever and I Was Kind of Like The Psychiatrist In The Burlesque Show I Was Watching The Audience Instead Of The Dancers And So I Went Around And Deliberately Made Physical Contact With Every Person In The Room Everyone Didn't say anything. I just wanted to see how this afternoon crowd would deal. I was decently dressed, but it shouldn't matter. But I went by, not one single person even acknowledged my presence. No hellos, no, you know, open that cup of coffee, nothing. Went over to the bar and the guy working there was talking to another fellow, sat there a few minutes. and he said, you want something? I said, yeah, I'd like a coffee. He said, I got a coffee now that's not me normally yeah, i got the coffee went back to the hotel that night i was going to meet him so i came back over this time i did the same thing only instead of walking by i went to every table and interrupted whatever they were doing i didn't care what they were doig They were welcoming me is what they were doing, whether they meant to or not. So I'd just go over there. I'm Tom Ivester from Sutherland, North Carolina. Well, it was a different club, eh? A different club. They were as warm and welcoming as me once I got them awake. You know, they were great. But they weren't used to doing that. They had a new member that night who was coming back to his first meeting. Who do you think they asked to take him to a meeting? Somebody you've got to wake up and lead to the car? No. They asked the guy from down south that looked alive, so I took the guy to his first meeting at that. The point is that I think you've Got to Make. I'm not going to stand there and watch the fellowship die. I'm going to move in, and if I see something needs to be done, I'll do it. I went to speak to a group a while back. I don't know we're weird sometimes I would speak to a group down in my area and it looked like a dance you know when you went in everybody was lined up around the wall just like you would at a high school dance or something and so I went around and I'm making a round greeting everybody and I welcomed them then to their group and so I got around the circle a woman came across the floor and she said can I ask you something personal? I said, sure. What is it? She said, what do you sell? I started saying I don't sell anything. I said oh wait a minute. Yeah I do. I sell recovery and we got a real deal on it. And that's exactly right. I'm not going to stand by and watch Alcoholics Anonymous wither and die. If I see something needs to be done, I'm going to do it if it's not being done i don't care whose group it is yeah that's just what i want to be i don'T WANT TO BE PART OF AN UNWELCOMING UNFRIENDLY KIND OF A GROUP OF PEOPLE I JUST JUST WON'T DO THAT AND SO BUT THAT'S JUST ME I HOPE YOU'LL DO THE SAME THING BECAUSE SOMETIMES IT CAN ABSOLUTELY I'LL TELL YOU ONE OTHER THING IS THAT I DO JUST AS A MATTER OF COURSE I'm not a fan of just open discussion meetings where you talk about what the bitch took when she left and all this kind of stuff. I'm just not a man of that. I'm a fan to that, yeah. And if I go into a meeting where I see that's what it is, I never leave. I'm going to work inside the tent. I'm não vou sair e jogar pedras. Eu vou trabalhar dentro do teto. Então eu sinto na mesa e se alguém faz o erro de me chamar on me or or if it comes around that ring around the rosies deal when it gets to me i'll act i act like i'm deaf dumb and blind that i haven't heard a single thing that's been said and then i'll start talking about what i think ought to be talked about in a meeting of alcoholics and and i'll tell you something i'm never insulting to or confrontational to people or correcting people. What I'm doing is demonstrating what I believe an AA group ought to be about and what a member ought to be about in a group. And so I'll start talking about something that has to do with recovery. And not one single time have I ever seen it go back to what it was. Every single time. Yeah, it'd start right back in on, and you've got a new deal. I'm not the only guy frustrated there. I mean, my God, man, how many people want to sit around here commiserating about the poodle diet or something? You know, I mean, you know, he said, I'm sorry about that and then move on, you know. But that's what I do because you'll find that. I'm not finding it in practically every state in the Union. It's not just down east of you. That's a widespread kind of a problem. I think every one of us here we're either part of that coldness or we do something to try to make it different. And so that's why that's how I do it. I'm just one guy. But by golly, I'm one. and I can demonstrate that there is a better way to do that thing. So that's what I do just as a way of operating. It's fun sometimes with what happens that it really just there's something about it it's called leadership is what you call it that's all it is, it's leadership if you want to see it done take the initiative and start making it get done you don't have to boss anybody around All you've got to do is set an example. Then the first thing you know, somebody won't talk to you. Yeah, it's amazing what happens. Anybody else? Yeah. My name's Tevi, I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Tevi. I'm not a weak stoker yet, and this is my second run at it. and I was recently in a community of AA that I wasn't thrilled about and now I've moved to Vancouver which has inspired me but I'm scared that it's just a geographical change and that I'm not done and I'm just wondering if maybe you could comment on that a little bit well, geographical stuff and mobility is the order of the day because we're a mobile society I'll tell you what I've had to do how long were you sobered the first time? three months okay well the biggest thing is to find a place where you feel comfortable that's very important find a places where you're comfortable anybody that's older I'll take it I'll say what I have had to as an older member and I wouldn't advocate this for you at this point obviously but what I moved I've moved a number of times in my recovery. Every time I get a new job, I usually have to relocate somewhere. What did he say? I don't hear that. I hear more and more. Next week. But what I've had to do, and the book describes it doggone well. I told you at the end of the 104 pages is what do you do when you get to a town? They were talking about starting a gang, which I've been doing for a long time. I've got that privilege too. But when I go to a Town, I have a criteria for what I'm looking for in a group. I want a three-legacy group. I'm not interested in a one-dimensional group. If the group is all about me and mine, count me out because that's just a piece of one legacy. And so when I go to a town, I honest to God want to find a group. But what I find is great difficulty in finding a three-legacy group. And I hope it's different in Vancouver, but it's sure not in North Carolina. You know, if somebody comes into my town looking for a group, we've got a couple. Mine's one of them that they can come to and they'll find a solid AA meeting. But you find an awful lot that are just, in all honesty, I'm not to be flying the flag, but it's just everything stimulates new thoughts with me. but I was doing a little work panel type of thing on a professional deal. And I was on a panel with a psychiatrist, and I did my thing, and then he followed me. And when he got up, and it was on alcoholism, dealing with it. When he gotup, he said, I know he was the tiredest-looking man I think I've ever seen. You know what I mean? You see people that are just beat, I mean, just sagging. Well, that's what he looked like. And he went up there and he said, I work with alcoholics who've got other problems and some who are just straight alcoholics. He said, well, I know AA's the place for them. But he said it honestly seems to me that when I send them to AA they come back worse. And he said I don't understand it. What is that about? Well, I didn't want to answer. I just got off the stage, you know, and he followed me. Well, sitting there nobody says anything. Well, the guy is desperately asking for help. And there were a number of AA members in there from that town. Nobody budged. So I stuck my hand up and I said, I understand what you're talking about. And the only thing I would tell you is that you're going to find out that you've got to understand everything that flies the flag is not AA. It covers a lot of stuff. and so you're going to find some that are good healthy places you're gonna find some that major in the illness and I said what I would suggest you do is get acquainted with two members that you trust two members that you give you good guidance when you've got somebody and you want to know where to take them call them, tell them what you're dealing with if you're dealin' with somebody that's paranoid you're not gonna send him into some sort of confrontational kind of a thing you're gon' send him to a different kind of meeting So that's why you don't expect him to get educated enough to know what you're doing or to go in. But if he can make contact in the fellowship and get guidance on that, just like we get guidance from them on dealing with stuff. So that, I mean, that's not directly addressing what you were talking about, but that's the main thing. That's what I do even as an old-timer. When I go in, I check out the terrain. I find a group if I possibly can. And if I can't, I start one. And that's what they've had to do for a lot of years now. But shoot, man, hang in there. And you can start with, you know, the guys that started in the first group didn't have but a week. So you're right up with them. So go on in there and make a difference. And what will happen is you'll get moving real quick. Yeah, last one, Brian. Sometimes when I go to meetings, I don't even hear a word that's said. My mind's just like a squirrel or whatever. you know like how do you get like focused in your reading and listening because sometimes that happens has that ever happened to you I'll tell you what's helped me listening is an art it is an art and it is a powerful powerful art I learned the value of listening I was taking a college speech course and I got there just listening what the importance of listening had a good friend who taught listening in workshops that it's a powerful deal where when you give somebody your attention you're giving them yourself and it is a huge gift to give somebody your undivided attention. What a gift you can give. You can actually I've done it you can actually influence a speaker by the way you listen. It sounds weird but if you want him to talk about something All you've got to do is just respond to what you want to hear and ignore what you don't. And the first thing you know, he's going to be singing your song. I ought not to be telling you that since I do a lot of speaking. I don't have people going to have me singing Dixie up here or something like that. But that's what I do, is just recognize the value of it and learn how to listen to people. Because the most important gift you can give somebody is your undivided attention. Powerful thing. you can influence literally what somebody does so I think it's a great tool well we've got to take a break