Step 6 and 7: The Daily Work of Practicing Opposites. – Myers R.

Hi, my name is Pieter, I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Pieter. We've got a shitload of questions here, so... There are a few in Icelandic, so I was thinking I might translate them to you. I can. Oh, he can, okay. Okay. How do you handle a sponsee who's going through, having rough times? End of relationship, finances, or other stuff. For instance? Just having a meaningful conversation with someone outside. How do I handle someone that's having relationship problems and no money? Well, that's obviously, they're new. My sponsor told me, one of the greatest advice he ever gave me was that if I needed to have a relationship, that it was impossible for me to have one. You know, because that's not a relationship. And when I didn't need a woman to validate me as a man, I could have a relationship with a woman, but not a minute before that. You know, I think a lot of people that are coming back into Alcoholics Anonymous, we all come in here with financial problems, with relationship problems, with legal problems, with health problems. The only thing we treat is alcoholism. And if you live by the principles, those things will start taking care of themselves. My sponsor told me, if I didn't go to work every single day and went to a meeting every day, my life would get different. You know? And you know what? After a while, my life started getting different. But if I try to concentrate on putting that woman back into my life immediately, or taking care of my financial problems, if that's the most important thing, you see, those things aren't going to kill me. My alcoholism will kill me. And I must address my alcoholism. And as a result of me addressing that, my life will be different. My life will start changing. And those other things will take care of themselves, if that's God's will for me. You know? That's all I got to say about that. There's one question here that I'd like to ask. Are you a believer in people to come forward? I'd like to ask those who are believers in me and believers in you, to come forward. I'm not doing it for any new way. I've set it up, but here's enough to take. Someone was asking for a sponsor, so... There you go. Thank you. I'm going to put this one to you, Myers. Do you think it's your duty to be where the solution already is in a meeting? Or do you think you should rather travel, go a long way to other meetings that are non-solution based? Do I think it's okay to be doing what I'm doing instead of staying in a meeting? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. Should you travel and go to sick home groups or, excuse me, different home groups? It's a real simple question. And the answer is real simple, too. My responsibility... I'm one of these old guys that believe that back-to-basics stuff told us that we're supposed to be back in a home group setting, that we need to establish a home group and be there for those guys. We also have a responsibility to carry a message someplace else. I do not believe that it is our deal to sit in a meeting waiting for the drunk to come to me, because there's millions of them out there that will never be at that meeting. A lot of us meet in obscure places and churches and places that are way away from the alcoholic, and so we need to be up off our rear ends and out there carrying a message to these other guys. If you know somebody that's got a toxic meeting going, if you want to go sit in the meeting, we're not about beating up other people. We have no opinions on outside issues, and it's not our job to go over and fix somebody else's group. But if you know you've got a toxic meeting going on in your city where people are not getting sober, and you want to go sit in on a couple of those meetings over there and add some hope and add some guidance, do that. Do that. It's a great way to do that. It's a great way to do that stuff. Treatment centers, wind-up joints, this kind of stuff. Iceland's got more good places to go carry a message than any place I've ever seen. If you don't have a place to do 12-step work, it's because you don't want to do 12-step work. It's that simple. It really... That answers it. Okay, here's one for Brian. I go by the book. I show good example. I'm always there for the newcomer. But those who I sponsor, they don't go the same way as I do. They don't go the same way as I do. They don't go the same way as I do. They don't go the same way as I do. I have two and a half years sober. I'm worried about this. I don't know what it is about Iceland there. Even the urinals are up to my neck. You know. It's not really funny, but... That's a good question. It's... It's... I'm not really... I guess here's what I would say in a real... Because Meyer said I need to be brief. And if I'm doing all that, whoever wrote that question, if I'm doing all that and I'm being of service and I'm just doing it and the sponsees aren't getting sober and I'm okay with that, as long as I'm really doing this work and I'm getting paid for it, I'm okay with that. And if I'm doing all that, whoever wrote that question, if I'm doing all that and I'm being of service and I'm just doing it and the sponsees aren't getting sober, then I'm okay with that as long as I'm really doing all that. If I'm guiding people through the process, if I'm active in AA, because I'm real clear about this. And I sponsor, let's say I sponsor like 20 guys about what I have. I had to count them, 20 guys. Out of that 20, five I really don't sponsor, but they call me their sponsor and I just don't sponsor them. But they say I'm their sponsor. The reality is if you want what I have, do what I'm doing. And if you aren't doing what I'm doing, then you'll probably get what you always got. And I don't put any emphasis on whether, I just don't take that personal. I used to take that real personal, like it was my job to save everybody. And the reality is it's not. It's not my job to carry a message. If I'm really doing all that, the more people I sponsor, the more people I sponsor, the more people I sponsor. The more people that will start to fall, they'll start, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is some people just aren't willing. That's the reality. And it all comes down to whether they want to accept God's grace or not. And if they do, they'll get what you got. And so just keep plugging away. And it is frustrating when you're a new sponsor. I mean, you want everybody to get it and you don't. It took me a while. I killed my first sponsor. So, I mean, really, he died and I took that personal. It had nothing to do with me. I was bringing everything that I was supposed to bring to the gentleman and he didn't want it. So, like I said. I hope that answers your question. Chip, how much time do you spend each day on prayer and meditation? What about your evening review? How much time do you spend on that? One of my favorite questions. The most important thing that I do to me, which is even more important than me going to a meeting, my day starts just before the sun comes up. I have a garden that I've worked on for years. And I spend my first hour in the garden every single morning. And I do my prayers. And then I sit and try to get real quiet and listen. At nighttime, when I do my tenth step, each night before I go to bed, I go to bed very late. My day starts at about 5.30 in the morning and it ends at about 1 o'clock at night in the morning the following day. I do a tenth step. And I do a tenth step the way my sponsor taught me. And one of the main things that I try to work on at all times, continuously, is step six and seven for me. And step six, I made a list of all of my defects of characters. And believe me, in sobriety, in 20 years, I've developed new ones. And I'll probably develop some new ones this weekend. And I try to identify those things. And then on my seventh, what I try to do is I ask God for help on them. But I also, I write down what the opposite of that defect is that I'm practicing. You know, if I'm a liar, I want to work on truthfulness better. You know, if I'm getting real self-centered, I want to start working on being more people-centered. So the first thing, inventory, I do is, did I practice any of my defects today? And I have to be honest about it. Do I owe someone an amends? Do I need to go clean something up? Or did I practice these new principles that I'm trying to live on, you know? And I just try to keep correcting my course each night, trying to head true north at all times, just trying to correct my course. Because it's so easy to get off course, and pretty soon I'm not going north, I'm going south. That's it. Good questions, everyone, I can assure you. That's so good. I did a workshop one time in the United States, and we got done with this whole thing, and they wanted to do a question deal, and there wasn't one question. There was 500 people, and there was no questions. They were a bunch of lockjawed people. They were really thrilled. They were really pissed. They didn't... I understand that. I understand what it's like to... Part of everything we're doing is about reevaluating where we are and asking the hard questions about what we're doing and this sort of thing. None of it's meant from a judgmental nature. Guys, they didn't appoint me president of AA yesterday. I begged them to do that, but they didn't do that. And so these are all suggestions that you might do if you're contorted and having trouble where you are at a specific place. One of the questions I got was, isn't it my job to stay in meetings where the message is missing? It's a great question. All of us at some time or another are part of a group that things have gone sideways in, where things have gotten toxic, where people are standing there just talking about their day and nobody's talking about solution, and drunks aren't getting sober. And so you have the questions. You can... You got that? There you go. You can put them in a scrapbook or something. I don't know. Yes, I do think that it's your... It's your duty to be there. But let me paint a real quick mental picture for you. Let's say that you're in a meeting that has been going on for a good period of time and the meeting has gone toxic and nobody's getting sober and everybody is just there for the fellowship part. There's no program being done. It's all fellowship. Do you have a responsibility to stay in that meeting? No, because you'll die there if you're not careful. You have to be really careful. People say, well, when do I know when it's time to leave? When you're hurting enough that you need to go to the doctor. When you need to go someplace else, do that. I spend much more time today trying to get guys plugged into new group situations than I am trying to salvage old group situations. Because the old groups are real set in their ways and you're not going to do that. I mean, you're not going to change 25 or 30 people that have been doing it the same way for a bunch of years. They'll see your life and some of them will gravitate to you and then you grab those guys and you go start you another group where things are staying healthy. At least that's been our experience anyway in setting up groups and stuff. I think that answers... You guys okay on that? If you guys got something to share, you can jump right in there if you want to tag in. Next question I had on this stuff was, how can I know the difference between my own voice and God's voice? This cat's got two months of sobriety. He does, he told me, or her, him. That's a great question. Let's stop and think about this stuff. On page 164, there's a line in there that said that God will constantly disclose more to you and us, right? So if we're going to believe that the basic text is telling us that God will constantly disclose more to you and us, that's the truth. That's the truth. That's the truth. Then God's constantly disclosing things to us. So our goal here, as it were, is to spend as much time as we can trying to understand what God's will is, which we do throughout our day, but in 11 especially, in step 11 especially, our deal is to slow down. For most of us, it's slowing down that's the problem. We don't have a problem with the concept of prayer and meditation and doing this other stuff. It's just trying to unlearn this deal of being busy all the time and going 100 miles an hour. To just shut our minds down. We won't do this here, but later on during the weekend, if you guys want to talk about some of that stuff, I'd be glad to spend some time with you. I'm huge on meditation and huge on prayer because our real grip in this whole thing comes through that stuff. The specific answer to that specific question is, is the feeling that you had when you prayed this, the answer that you think you got, is it selfish? Guys, I prayed for years for a Porsche. I wanted a Porsche so bad that it was just not... I didn't get the Porsche. You see, I wanted the Porsche because I thought I wanted it. It's a selfish deal. God wanted me to have a van so I can carry 15 people to a meeting. That's what he wanted. And so that's what I have, you see. And I suspect that at some point in time, God may see fit to bring me that Porsche. But the hope springs eternal. But I had to ask the question, is what I'm asking selfish? Sure, sure. Sure. Ask, it will benefit other drunks, then it's not a selfish request and my answers will be in that same realm. But that's the surest way to tell whether or not you're straying off into the ozone. The next question on this thing, when working with a newcomer who is still in treatment, should I start working the steps or wait until he's done with treatment? I'm not sure, but I bet I've been asked that question more than any other question ever. And if you're on the firing line out there helping drunks, you will be there 15 seconds and that question will be in your mind. Do I need... Do I need to do this now or wait? The first thing I do is always... This is, again, this is my own personal experience on this. Some guys may disagree. I always go to the treatment guys, the guys that run the joint first, and I tell them. I find out what my parameters are going to be. I don't want to be in conflict with the treatment stuff there. They've asked me to come. They've allowed me to come as a guest to carry a message there. And the last thing I want to do is step on a bunch of toes being an abrasive member of Alcoholics Anonymous. That's not my job to do that. So I'm going to ask them going in. And what I would really like to do, is work these guys through this work as fast as I can. I would like to be thorough, but I'd like to be fairly expedient on this thing. Can I do this? And if there's any limitations, will you tell me now? Some treatment places will say, hey, work any of your guys up through three and then stop. And we're going to do some stuff with them and then you can work four or five and the rest of the stuff when they get out of treatment. A lot of places are like that now. I've got two places that we go every week in Dallas that let us do whatever we want to do as fast as we want to do. Those cats are there for 30 days and every one of those men that we work with, have worked the steps in 30 days and are out there kicking butt and taking names when they get out. It's a cool deal. But you need to check and see what the deal is. We'll talk about this some in the morning. The book says real clear that we will not be able to bring into consciousness with sufficient force the pain and suffering of a week or a month ago. And so I don't like dragging this crap out. And so yes, I'm one of those big book guys that believes that we need to work the work as fast as we can. And so I'm diligent. If they're willing and they're ready to do this, I'm going to work them as quick as we can. Did that answer that thing? I think we did. A couple more here. How do you qualify a guy? And how do you approach him? It's the stuff we were talking about this morning. I am so tired of seeing men and women hurting in our fellowship that I'm real bold about that stuff. I tend to ask a lot of questions right off the bat when guys come to our meeting and this sort of thing and I'll ask them. Early AA used to ask this one question first off the bat. Are you done? What's wrong with just asking a guy? Is a guy that or a woman that? But are you done? It's a simple question. Because the reality is that a lot of us really aren't done. We want to be out of trouble, but we're not done. We still really would like to figure out a way. Remember the book where they talk about the lurking notion? There must be no lurking notion. A lot of us come into this deal with the lurking notion that as soon as we get all the blowtorch off our rear, we're going to be able to drink again or we'll be able to drug again or we'll be able to act like fools like we were. And that's kind of crazy. So I qualify. I qualify them right off the bat. I ask them if they're done. If they say yes, then I take them to page 44. I ask them the two questions about power and choice. Have we lost the power of choice and control? And that gives me a pretty good idea of what we're dealing with. Whether we need to go ahead and proceed with this guy as an alcoholic or whether we need to slap him on the back and say, Brother, I'm glad you're here and basically dust him. I'm going to go find me a real drunk to work with. If this guy doesn't answer these questions the right way, I'm going to go find somebody else. And he's welcome in our meetings. I mean, but you get it. Do you guys have anything to add to that stuff? So far, so good? You guys are easy now. I love this question. How is it for a couple who are both alcoholics to get sober and work the steps? Guys, AA is full of absolutely wonderful relationships where both men and women were in recovery. Absolutely stellar relationships. There's also some relationships made in hell through that same deal. And it's... It's important to ask yourself these questions. People that I work with who have wives in recovery, I also insist that they become good members and good standing in Al-Anon too. Some people disagree with me on this thing, but I think that you need to understand that you have no more control over your spouse than anything, than your family had over you. We simply don't have that kind of control over somebody else. So it's important that we understand. We understand how to detach from that control issue. My wife is either working that program or she's not working that program and I have no control over what this thing is. And you want to see a screwed up relationship? Let the man or the woman in the relationship get judgmental about the other one's program and watch how fast things begin to slide sideways. Watch how cold the old bedroom gets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just a... A slide piece of advice. This isn't in the big book, but just as a piece of advice. If your wife is in this program, man, if your wife is in this program also and she's not doing what she's supposed to be doing and she's drifting, don't talk to your wife. Talk to your wife's sponsor and express your concerns. Tell them, hey, she's acting like a fruitcake again. Let's... What is going on? And then try to see it from that perspective and see if you can do it. Because I guarantee if you confront her, you know, full face and say that, it's not going to be... It's not going to be too effective. Still okay? Okay. Kip says, never try to sponsor your wife. And I concur. That is a disaster. And last but not least on my stack of this stuff, what can groups do to make members accountable regarding following the traditions, singleness of purpose traditions, this kind of stuff? Each and every one of us has a responsibility, guys, to stay attached and adhere to the traditions. I know how... How plugged in most of you guys are around the steps. I've talked to a bunch of you one-on-one and I know where you are. I know very little about where you are around the traditions. We've not talked about it a great deal. We'll talk about it some in the morning. But I can assure you that if you want to watch AA disintegrate before your eyes, begin to ignore the traditions and watch what happens in your group. The steps were a suggested bunch of stuff that we were supposed to do. The traditions were a suggested bunch of stuff that we were not supposed to do. It's telling us directly and specifically what we're supposed to steer clear of. And a lot of groups don't want to hear that. A lot of individual alcoholics don't want to hear that. But unless the unity of AA stays whole, and that's what the traditions were about, how do we hold our groups whole? And so it's huge. If you have a group now and you're not studying the traditions on a regular basis, next time you have a group conscience meeting come up or a steering committee meeting come up, business stuff, stand there firm and insist that it be done. Tell them God told you in morning meditation. Tell them a crusty old sumbitch from Texas said, I want you guys to be studying the traditions because collectively your whole fellowship will get healthier and you'll begin to see the guideposts that your group operates in. And it's an amazing deal because when people start getting outside of the confines of the traditions, you'll know it, you'll recognize it, and you'll be able to do something about it. And you'll be able to shore all. You'll be able to shore all that stuff up so that your group stays healthy. And if your group stays healthy, then AA stays healthy as a whole. You see? That's pretty good stuff. Thanks, guys. I only got a few, so we'll be brief on this. A couple of these are the same way. This is a big one. I'm going to do this. I should probably pray before I do this one, though. How do you work a ninth step on a person you have molested? Well, when it comes to amends, it's really between me and God when I'm making amends. I do run stuff by sponsors. I actually have a few people. I run it through my sponsor and then a few mentors, people that I respect in AA. But really, it comes down to, at that stage, I've usually acquired a pretty decent relationship with God, and so I take it to prayer. The directions in the big book are crystal clear. There's a lot of parameters within those pages. Between 76 and 84, you pretty much can tell you what not to do. And really, it comes down to, I've got to be hard on myself. Right? I've really got to be hard on myself. I've got to be hard on myself. I've got to be hard on myself. But I also can't hurt other people. Obviously, if I was to take my own experience of what I think I would do on that, I'd clean it up. Obviously, the person that I molested knows that I molested them, so it's a no-brainer for me on that. Again, though, I do not take, this is my experience, and it's really something that needs to be brought into prayer. What I know about amends is the healing process is huge. And I was willing to go. I don't want to go to any length for this. And that means I went into every single business I stole from and was willing to put my freedom on the line for this stuff. And so, I don't personally, I don't see it any other way. I need to be willing to go any length. And the big book talks about that. So, if you want to talk one-on-one on that, I'm willing to talk one-on-one because that's a big deal. Unless you've already gone to prison for that, then I think it just needs to be talked about. And what I'm clear about this is when I went to make amends, I didn't go to prison for that. I went to make amends to some of the people. If they did not want to hear it, then I needed to respect that. Because it's not okay for me to get free of what I want to get free of at the other person's expense. And there are a few people that I went to, that I went to make amends, and they flat out told me, I do not want to hear it, and I don't want to talk to you. And everything in my body screamed, no, but you must hear what I have to say. Because it was really selfish. I wanted to be free of it. And the truth is, it's not about me. Amend means to fix. And so, if they don't want it, then I've got to walk away. I hope that answered that one. If a person wants to work the A steps, but is more a drug addict, what do you tell him or her? When he says, or she says, that he does not want to go to N.A.? Well, that's a good question. Here's my experience with what's happening. And again, this may be, I work with a lot of alcoholics and people who are addicted to drugs. I, like Kip and Myers, you know, I'm a cocaine addict, obviously. I didn't rob banks to support my drinking. You know what I mean? So it's crystal clear for me that that's a problem for me. But I'm in AA. I have alcoholism. It manifested itself in many different ways, but I'm an alcoholic. So the 12 steps treated that. All right? So when I sponsor people, none of the guys I work with ever say I'm an AA and an addict. All right? Now, if I sponsor somebody who... I go to the prison. And so every time I get a new group, so we meet 10 guys. I take a group of guys through the book. So it's like a group thing, but then we do fourth and fifth. In the fifth step, we do one-on-one. But I take them through the process as a group. And a lot of guys, I get in on the first step, and they're like, well, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm an addict. And we'll find out if they are through this process, you know, through, you know, the questions that are inside the first pages. You know, that page 44 in Doctor's Opinion gives you some good stuff. If they're not an alcoholic, I will still... I will still take them through the 12 steps, but then I send them to their fellowship. And in my community, we have a strong OA. We have really strong big book OA. And they were coming to our meeting, and they weren't alcoholics, but they were OA. And so some of our members took them through the process of the 12 steps and then sent them to OA. And now OA is extremely strong. So when a person... Because what happens... The reason NA... This is just my own opinion. The reason NA, I think, is weak in a lot of areas is because they... They're tied out in Alcoholics Anonymous. And you'll hear that all the time. Well, AA is much stronger. So I just go to AA. So then basically we're leaving the addicts with nothing. And so we take NAs. I take them through the steps, if they're heroin addicts or whatever, and then send them to NA. And NA is starting to get strong. And now if they're AA, NA... Some guys I sponsor, I don't go to CA or NA. I just don't. I stay in AA because that's my primary purpose. So I hope that answered it. I may have actually confused somebody more. A guy I sponsor refuses to go past third step. What do I do? Well, you really don't know what I do? If I do a third step with you, if I'm going to go through the first three and we pray and do a third step... Did you want to say something? Oh, okay. If I do a third step with somebody and then I... For me, this is the way it works. If I'm sponsoring you, we're going to do that prayer together. We're going to kneel. We're going to read the prayer. We're going to talk about stuff with them. We're going to do that. And then I give the guy a notebook. I usually buy their first notebook because I'm a kind guy. And then we start the fourth step because it talks about it. It says that that decision I made would have... That vital decision would have little permanent effect unless it once followed by a strenuous effort to be faced and be rid of the things that are blocking me. So it's crystal clear. So if I do a prayer with somebody, I tell them, If you do this prayer and you make this decision, which is a huge decision, and you don't follow it up with an inventory, your life will get... Very colorful. And I won't sponsor you. I ain't got time for that. There's too many... I work with too many people. I do not have time to play those kind of games. It'll be crystal clear because you will not write any inventory. And then pretty much your life will get colorful and you'll fade away. So if they're telling me flat out... And this is what I... If they refuse to go past... If I did a prayer and he said, I'm not doing a four-step, well, then I'm not sponsoring you. You've got to go find some middle-of-the-road solution guy who will take care of that for you. Because I'm not doing that. You know? I love you. You come out. We'll even go have coffee and stuff. But I can't sponsor you if you don't want that. Because I don't have any experience of not doing... Of doing that. All right? So good luck on that one. After taking AA steps, working in DA and SLAA, what are your thoughts or experience on other 12-step programs? Well, I am really sure... I don't have an opinion on other 12-step programs. I don't have any experience in them except that... Um... They're there and they're useful. And people's lives can be changed. I mean, I have experience in the sense of I have friends who are in OA and in NA. But I don't participate in those. So I really don't have an opinion on that. I don't have a negative opinion. I'll tell you that. You know? Because I don't know enough about it. I know that if you apply the principles... I mean, if you really look historically, all the programs outside of AA started from AA members, really, who had other issues. You know? OA, GA, SLAA, you know, DA, which I'd never actually heard until I came here this week. I'd never heard of Debtors Anonymous. But, I mean, the principles beyond the first step, what I'm powerless over, the principles are still... It's a spiritual malady. I think we do a disservice when we... Well, I don't know about that. I guess I just don't have an opinion on that. I just got to be real clear. Because it's literally not... I think other 12-step programs help. They help a lot of people and they save lives. So, that's about as clear as I can get on that. You know, what do you know the difference between an alcoholic and a heavy drinker? And there's another question that goes with this. I'm going to read this one, too, because he's really going to get answered by the same question. This is kind of long, but bear with me. It says, Often when I'm about to meet people with more time than me, speakers, et cetera, I start thinking, Oh, it wasn't that bad. Maybe I'm only a problem drinker. My story's not as bad as theirs, et cetera. I always cringe at the real alcoholic discussion, always afraid you're going to tell me I'm not. An alcoholic, always afraid of you finding me out. I was able to stop for a max of four months and drink and not work anymore. Did not change into Catwoman, like in the beginning. I can tell you, I never turned into Catwoman, either. I'll just give you a heads up. Beginning of my drinking days. And the last time I had to either buy food for the kids or go to the bar, for me it wasn't even a difficult choice. I'd go to the bar, didn't even realize it until the next day. And once in a while, am I an alcoholic? So, there's someone asking me, really convoluted, are they an alcoholic? And here's another one. It says, How do you know the difference between an alcoholic and a heavy drinker? And Myers has done a great job about that question. I go into this process, when I take guys through the book again, I always go into it as in, hey, maybe I'm not an alcoholic. Every time. Anytime I'm taking someone through the book, I always ask myself that question. Okay, we're going to go through this. And I'm starting from the beginning. Maybe I'm not an alcoholic. Maybe I, you know, does that scare me? You know, let's talk. Usually it does frighten me. Because I know, you know, the truth. But so, then we'll ask the questions. And I get into a lot of guys, because I sponsor the guys. In the prison, it's really big. Because a lot of these guys are doing time because of their crime. And, well, obviously they're doing time for their crime. But because they're addicted to drugs. And so, they always say to me, you know, I never had a problem with booze. They're 20, 21, 22. And so, I say, well, let's just assume you're not an alcoholic. Let's, everybody, I stole a prayer from some guys. It's called the set-aside prayer. But I really stole it because it was really good. It's like, let's set aside. Let's set aside everything I think I know about recovery, about anything. Just completely be open to a new experience. That maybe I'm not an alcoholic. Let's find out. Page 44. I take people to the doctor's opinion. There's a solution. And more about alcoholism. Those are the three chapters that I deal with when I'm talking about alcoholism. Because I have to look at unpowerless two ways. Physically, meaning when I drink, do I have any control over the amount I drink? And the first time I asked myself, I said, oh, yeah. My sponsor said, every time you drink, you have control. Oh, not every time. He says, well, let's look at the doctor's opinion. The doctor's opinion says, we believe, and so suggested a few years ago, that the action of alcohol on these chronic alcoholics is a manifestation of an allergy that the phenomenon of craving is limited to this class and never occurs in the average tempered drinker. So my sponsor said, well, what does never mean to you? Never means nothing. Never. See, when these guys wrote the book, these guys were 40, 50 years old. They were all late-stage alcoholics when they did this. He said, you don't find any young people at the beginning of our history. And so I had to start looking at my drinking. I mean, I went to prison when I was 22. From 22 to 29, I didn't do a lot of drinking. I mean, I made some wine in prison, but it wasn't like a daily thing. And so I had a struggle finding my alcoholism. Well, maybe I'm just a drug addict. Maybe I'm not. And so my sponsor said, well, there are any times that you drank more than you wanted to drink? Yeah. Oh. And then this is saying that it never occurs in the tempered drinker. Well, maybe you're an alcoholic. Maybe I am. So I ask guys a question all the time. I had this kid the other day. I said, he goes, I'm not an alcoholic. And I don't want to argue him. I'm like, okay, maybe you're not. That's cool. Maybe you're not. Maybe you're just a heroin addict. Let's talk about that. You ever drink to a blackout? Oh, yeah, I've had blackouts. And I said, so when you started drinking that night, did you say, I'm going to drink right to a blackout tonight? That's my goal. I'm going to drink to a blackout. Oh, no, no, I didn't do that. Oh, you ever puke all over yourself? Oh, yeah, many times. So when you started drinking that night, did you say, you know what? I'm just going to drink till I puke on myself. So I think as a sponsor, it's our job to ask some questions, you know, like to probe some questions, and then they can find their own truth. Because the truth is, I can't tell you whether you're an alcoholic. You've got to come to your own conclusion. Deep down inside, you have to fill it. When I start asking those questions, and it's like, oh, yeah, and the real question on 44, which I think, you know, AA and their infinite wisdom have put a pamphlet out called 22, I don't know, 40 questions or whatever, you know. My sponsor is just like Myers. He's like, well, there's only two questions we need to ask ourselves. And then a little bit kicker on that. It says, if when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking, you have a little control of the amount you take, you're probably alcoholic. It says, the great obsession of every alcoholic is to control and enjoy his drinking. Because we know what the truth is. We know what the truth is. You know what the truth was in my life? There were times I could control it. But I could never match control and enjoy. Never. And I had to go back to when I was 19 and my parents said, we think you have a drinking problem. And I said, in my mind, okay, I've got to be careful. When I'm around my parents, I've got to make sure that I'm not too drunk. And so my mom would say, hey, it's your dad's birthday. We're having a little party. And so I would drink a few beers to get nice and lube, get comfortable, because that's the only way I can meet people is if I have some booze in me. And I would go there and I would say, I'm just going to have one beer in front of my parents. And so I'd drink one beer. And everybody else is sloshing them down. But I'm trying to control my drink and to make it look good. I did not enjoy those nights. Never enjoyed them. In fact, every time it would be, I would always leave two hours before the party was over, and I would hit the drive-thru. Arizona's got drive-thru liquor stores, which I think is just a wonderful gift. And so I'd like, don't even have to get out. I'd get out of my car, you know, and I would get myself, you know, a pint or whatever I was drinking. So can I control and enjoy my drinking? You know, do I have control over it? And when I deal with a lot of young alcoholics where their alcoholism has not progressed to the stage that some of us have, then that's just a reality. That's a flat-out reality. You know, some people have. But I deal with, I sponsor drunks who, you know, it's just the beginning of their alcoholism. And they say, yeah. So those are some questions you need to ask yourself. And if you have any questions on that and you want to talk more about it, come and see me after. And this is a, I think this is a really, this is probably the best question I have is, how do you manage to do so much 12-step work without neglecting your family? If you called my wife and I give you the number or email, and you asked her if I ever neglect the family, she would say no. So how do I do this? How do I spend, I've been on the road on Tuesday and Wednesday and Thursday, I was doing business down in Boston and New York because I knew I was flying out of Boston. So I make a trip to go see customers. I was down there. So I haven't been, I haven't seen my family since Tuesday, Tuesday morning I left. Do I like that? No. I would much rather be at home with my daughter and my wife. That's just a fact. I mean, as beautiful as Iceland is, and as wonderful a time as I'm having, if it was really, if I had my druthers, I would rather be at home with my family. All right? But that's not possible. We're called to do some work. And so I've got to get creative. For me, this is how I do it. If I'm sponsoring, I sponsor probably three or four new guys. If I'm, I may sponsor 20 guys, but a lot of these guys are in their men's. I'm not, you know, we go out and have dinner and catch up. But these guys aren't, you know, they're not calling me with problems. They just know better. But I sponsor probably three to four new guys every time I take them through the process. So I have them come to my house at 6 in the morning. You know, my wife and my daughter are still asleep. Show up at 6. I'll get up at 5.30. I can put some coffee on. And we'll sit for an hour and we'll talk. And we'll sit. And we'll start going through this process together. You know, so I've just got to get creative. You know, I'm not going to neglect my family. That's for sure. It ain't happening. You know, but I'm also not going to give up carrying this message. You know, I only take six speaking commitments a year. That's all. I won't do it. I've got too much other stuff. I've got commitments in A. I will not, as much as I would love to fly everywhere every weekend and do all that. You know what? I personally, I've got a three-year-old daughter and she's going to grow up knowing her dad. So I take six. I take six commitments a weekend. And my wife knows it. And sometimes, it was June, my wife and daughter would probably be here. If it was June, she looked and saw how cold it was and she said, I'll pass. But can we go back another time? So my wife has been to Myrtle Beach. You know, she's been down to North Carolina. You know, and these are speaking engagements. So I take them with me. It costs me an extra money. Sometimes, some groups pay for their spouses. You know, so that's why. That's what I do. And I think that's it. You guys have anything to say on any of that? All right. Thanks. I'm going to make this quick. I'm so hungry. I could eat a frozen dog on a stick. What is your opinion on the ideal time for taking a newcomer through the 12 steps? That's real simple. After the third step prayer, it says, next, we launched into a course of vigorous action. Those are all verbs. You know, I don't waste no time. I get on it. We start going through the steps immediately. If you ask me to sponsor you, I do the same thing. You come to my house. I qualify you. Yeah. You know, the main thing I ask you, are you willing? Are you done? And then I sit out a course. What they do with that is up to them. You know, if you don't want to take the steps, I'm not going to jam them down your throat. I told you, it's not for the people that want it. It's for the people that are willing to do the work. If you're not willing to do the work, I can't do the work for you. So I don't waste my time. But if you want to do this with all you got, I will be there to work with you as fast as we can get this done. You know, it's just how many meetings a week is ideal for your opinion, in my opinion. I asked my sponsor that when I was new. And he said, go to a meeting every night. And I said, for 90 days? He goes, no, every night. I said, well, what about this 90 and 90? He goes, what about it? I said, how long do I got to do this? He says, until you like it. And, you know, after about three years of going to meetings, every night, I said, you know, I'm going all the time. I said, maybe I ought to think about cutting some back. I said, how much do you think I ought to cut back? He says, why don't you cut back until you get drunk? Then you know you cut back one too many. You know? I don't know what's ideal. For me, in the beginning, the hardest thing I had about this deal, it wasn't learning this. It was unlearning what I already knew. You know? And I had to be surrounded by you people as much as I possibly could so you could keep putting in new information. And so I could keep. So I could. I changed. You know? And I had to be here all the time. Today, I have three commitments a week at meetings. I have a book study. I have a step study. I have my men's group. I also have a very, a business that just keeps me jamming, that supports my family. And any time I can, in between, if I've got time and lunch, I'll go to a noon meeting if it's possible. You know? Or someone else. There'll be a friend of mine that's speaking in town. And I might run over to go see that. But also, I have little children. And I spend time with my family. I don't try to take away anything from my family. My children need me. I only speak six times a year. I used to do it a lot until I had little children. You know? And I tell you, I love you people and I love Iceland, but I love my kids. And my arms are aching to hold my babies. You know? And they let me hold that little baby. I almost kept him. You know? I love being a daddy, man. That was one of the things God gave me. You know? So I don't know about that. Did you finish your ninth step? No. There are things in my past that I will never be able to make amends for. And I'm not going to really go into that. But I will tell you, there are a lot of people that are dead in my past. And my sponsor, I said, how do I make this? Right. He says, you can't. That what you have to do is considered universal amends. And what I'm doing here today is part of my ninth step as well as my twelfth step. He says, you've got to be willing to go wherever anyone asks you to go and do whatever you are asked to do. And alcoholics are anonymous. And maybe you can make a little difference here or there because you can't change some of the things that happened. So that's how I do that. And I will always be doing my ninth step. And. Like I said, I am also a human being and I constantly develop new defects. I constantly do more things that I have to go make amends for, you know, especially with my wife. You know, I learned a real simple thing with my wife. You know, it's just the three steps for a successful marriage. You just drop your head, kick your foot and go. You're right there. You know, and when I do that, I don't have to make a ninth step. You know. How do I get rid of the anger and hunger for revenge? If you don't, it will kill you. That's the dubious luxury of some people. But for alcoholics, that's poison because it'll cut me off from God. And if I get cut off from God, the insanity will return and I'll have to drink. And for me to drink is to die. The solution for all of my anger. And I come from a long background of ultra violence. When I am angry, when I am nuts, when I am crazy. When I do a real quick inventory, what's going on always is only one thing. On the bottom of page 62, it says, here's the how and the why of it. First of all, you have to quit playing God. You know. That I am my sponsor laid out a course of action for me. He said, do this. You are responsible for three things. Your actions, your reactions to their actions, and your inactions. And if you keep focused on those three actions, you'll keep your nose out of everybody else's business. And you won't get so many resentments. You know. Because in the first of the book, it told me that my dilemma was lack of power. And I got no... How many of you people this morning got up and in your prayers and meditation said, God, how can I make Kip's life a little easier? See? That's what I'm talking about. You know. You don't. You're all selfish and self-centered. You're not thinking about me or what I need. You're not acting the way I want you to act. You're not saying the things I think you should. You women are not loving me as much as I need to be loved. My boss doesn't give me enough money, what I deserve. They don't treat me with any respect in that airport. You know. And I'm powerless. He said, this was a triumphant arch to which we walked to freedom. Freedom from what? Freedom from what? Freedom from all that stuff. You know. In my garden, where I take my guys to the step, I built an arch so that I could show them what a keystone was. And a keystone is that one stone in the middle of that arch that everything leans to and supports both sides. You know. Me not playing God allows me the freedom to not live in anger. Then he said the key to being... Really doing it is to become an interested observer. You know. I'm very interested in what's going to happen, but I'm just going to watch and see. And that's how I do that. He said, what do I sponsor you to phone you every day? Thank God. I don't require my sponsors to call me every day. I don't sponsor people that way myself. When someone asks me to sponsor them, we start going through the steps. You are expected to be at my house every single Tuesday night at 6 o'clock. Not 6.05 or 5.55, but 6 o'clock. And we're going to sit there and we're going to take a course of vigorous action. And I'm going to give you an assignment that week. Now, if you have trouble with that, you can call me and I'll give you some direction. But I don't care about the trivia of your day. Okay. You know. I just don't. I'm not going to get involved in it. Do I continue taking them through the steps if they don't call me? How can you do that? It's me. How far do we go in making amends? The hardest amends I ever made in my life was to my daughter. I have a little girl that I, in my disease, I drug around the United States running from the law. And I kept her out of school. And I exposed that little girl to things that no child should have ever been exposed to. And when I got back to go make amends to my daughter, she said what all family members say. Usually she says, all I ever wanted was for you to be sober and have a good life and that's good enough. You just being sober is making amends. And I go, no, it's not. I said, you're going to tell me that you forgive me. I need to know what you forgive me for. And I need you to go do some work yourself. I need you to write down every single time that I've embarrassed you, humiliated you, that you were scared, that you were disappointed. Because I don't know. I was totally self-subsessed and drunk most of the time. I don't know how I hurt you. And I need to know exactly what it is you're forgiving me for. And she went and she did her work and she came back and we spent eight hours. And that was the most painful thing I've ever done in my life. And there was times that we laughed and there was one, two, three times that she jumped up and just slapped the shit out of me. And I had it coming. And I let her release that. And I let her release that anger and release all that stuff and get through that so she could heal herself through that. And it would have been much easier to say, thank you. When she said that's all. But that wasn't enough. I had to do the same thing with my mother. I had to do the same thing with my father and my family members. Because I need to know exactly what it is you're going to forgive me for. Because I don't remember. And my perception is only about me. Never about your pain. Only mine. How do you apply the traditions in your sponsorship? Mainly through the seventh tradition. I don't loan them any money. You know? And how do you teach your sponsors about? It's a requirement to the guys I sponsor that we learn the traditions. And the way that I teach the traditions I found very helpful is what I talked about before. Is I study the history of each tradition and try to give you a visual so that you know exactly what it means so you can apply it. You know? You know? You know? We study the tradition one week. The next week we study that step over and over and over. Year after year after year. You know