Atheism in AA and the Intellectual Pride of the Skeptic – Russell S.

Okay, my name is Russell Spatz. I'm an alcoholic. I'm a member of the Carl Gables Group. I haven't found it necessary to have a drink since January 25th, 1981. Grateful for that. I am grateful to be able to be here. And tonight I'm going to talk a bit about the 11th Step. And I'm gonna take a chance with you guys. I like this group. You know, I mean, I love sharing my experience with groups. And this is a nice group. It's been very gracious to me in putting up with my antics and listening to me. So I'm going to take a little chance with you guys, you know, and say a few things that I may not have said before. Maybe in a different type of way because tonight we're going to talk about the 11th step. And I do a real balancing act here. And I'm going to tell you, I do a real balancing act. Because I'm going to read you some things from the book. You know, one of the problems with the book that I see is if I really want to read to you the things that I've experienced that have affected me in my walk with God and focusing on the 11th step, I'd have to read through the entire book. You understand? So I'm forced before every meeting to pick out like five or six or seven things. And every time I pick out, it's like asking to somebody, what's your favorite kid? You know what I mean? Every time I pick one, I say yeah, but I'm leaving this one out. But I'm assuming that a lot of you guys have read the big book enough, and if you haven't you should, to know that every time I mention one particular part that I focus on which talks about your relationship with God and God, you're going to think in your mind yeah, pero what about these three other parts? You know that basically the whole book is a compendium of statements about the most important thing is your relationship mit God. And essentially since that's what the 11th step is all about and to have a strong relationship and a mature relationship with God you'll understand that that is AA that is our deal that is the answer that is, this, that is our hope I mean the 12 steps are tools they're tools we use in order to build that relationship with God, it's sort of like having a house that you're building in order to seek shelter in and use hammers and nails and saws and then sit around after the house is built and you worship the hammer. You know, the fourth step is not the deal. The fifth step is not... There's plenty of people that do these steps to their best of their ability or they think they do it and at the very end of the deal there is no relationship with God. At the end of the detail one of the last paragraphs in the big book is see to it that your relationship with him is right and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. now if you believe these people meant what they said, and I think they did if you think one of the things they're saying is if you have a relationship with God great things are going to happen to you then you've got to be mystified and you've gotta be sad certainly in the fact of running into a guy with 18 years who doesn't believe in God but he's staying sober but if you run into people like that and you will run into People Like That you will realize that it is possible to be in the AA fellowship and even seemingly do the steps, maybe even talk in meetings and get at the end to the end of the deal and not seemingly really get what this book is promising you. Not really getting the promises. Getting something that sort of looks like it so you can pass for it but not really getting that deal. And I want people to get what I got out of this thing. That's my selfish desire. I want you to feel what I felt. I want You to experience much of heaven. I want you to be rocketed into the fourth dimension of existence. I want those promises to be a way of life for you, to be something like, well, of course, that's the way it is all the time for me. You know, I wantyou to experience a more abundant life. I don't want you only to stop drinking and join the Stop Drinking Club. I wantyou to get out of this what I get outofthis, enthusiasm for life and for God and for other people and just a feeling of peace regardless of your circumstances and not having anything to do with whether the money is good or whether you have cancer. I want you to get that deal. I want to get the real deal. You know, I don't want you two have what you had before you went in here but feeling the same feelings you had before you came in here struggling with this thing but picking up a 12-year medallion anyway. That's not the kind of survival. I'd like you to have the whole deal, the whole enchilada. And so there's part of me, now there's a certain part of me because I absolutely believe that we're not aligned with any sect, religion or any of that stuff. And there's a great part of me that is very, very strongly believes that you're going to have to find your own way. You're going to have to find, you're going to find your own way. And like I heard a very wonderful man that I like very much. He said this, and I remember this, he says and he's of the same religion I was, the same sort of belief system he said, you know Russ, it's not my job to impose my beliefs on anybody, but it's my obligation to expose my beliefs to evil. So if somebody asked me to share my experience in strength and hope, I'm going to share my experiences in strength So I want you to understand that this is my experience. I'm going to share somewhere along the line here, if this goes the way I want it to go, I'm gonna share my experience with The 11th Step and how I got to where I am. I'ma share my personal experience and what works for me. If you choose to take offense because you don't believe in what my deal is, okay? That's because you just decided to not listen to me because you're ticked off at me or because you feel somehow... You've got something you've got to deal with on yourself. It's not my purpose to force you to do anything. You find your own deal. But to the extent that it's attractive to you or you want to look into it or to the intent that you get anything from it because there's a message embedded in there about how you get a life where you experience inspirational thinking. you know there's the kind of thinking we have when we come in here which I think is sort of defensive intellectual thinking, sort of analytical thinking that really didn't suit us real well, didn't suite me that well and there's something they talk about in the 11th step called inspirational thinking they say it's something called inspirational he says you'll experience inspirational thinking inspirational thinking is a very strange sort of deal I'll give you an example what inspirational thinking is. And I'm going to read certain parts of the book. As a matter of fact, I might as well read that part right now. It's actually in 11 because in the end that's what we're really going to be talking about and that's when you're really going to have to decide whether you want to have that deal or do you want it? Do you want you want to get that deal? And what it says is this. Let me find it. It says... Okay. in thinking about our day we may face indecision anybody ever have worry and indecission or not knowing or whatever it is we may not be able to determine which course to take here we ask God for inspiration here we ask God, it doesn't say we're going to get inspiration, it says we ask Dios for inspiration this whole book, when it all boils down to it's always about asking Him going to him, talking about him, thinking about him you know in the beginning of the book it says the great fact is this and nothing else nothing less. He has become the centerpiece of our lives. We know that he lives in our hearts and our minds you know that's the whole deal. He is doing for us what we can't do for ourselves. It's really I want to say it's hard to get away from that but trust me for Outbox it's not hard to get away form that. It' very easy to forget that. But there is a difference. There's consequences to forgetting that and make believe that's not the truth here we ask God for inspiration an intuitive thought or a decision we relax and take it easy we don't struggle now listen to this this is their experience we are often surprised how the right answers the right answer you ever make a mistake you ever say something or do something that turns out being a real bad deal make a telephone call send an email do something and you end up really hurting yourself and other people you ever do that deal well this is what it says We are often surprised how the right answers come after we have tried this for a while. And then it says this, What used to be the hunch or the occasional inspiration becomes a working part of the mind being still inexperienced. You see, when you come in here, you ain't doing inspirational thinking. You're doing the kind of thinking that kid I was talking about with the 60 days is doing. Your mind is like going a million miles per hour seeking answers to questions that you couldn't understand, you don't even know what the questions or the answers are anyway. You are just fragmented. Bad thoughts about yourself and other people and all sorts of fears. You don't have inspirational thinking. But it says being still in experience and having just made conscious contact with God, It is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times. We might pay for this presumption and all sorts of absurd actions and ideas. Listen to what it says. Nevertheless, we find that our thinking will, as time passes, be more and more on the plane of inspiration. We come to rely upon it. And 32 years has passed for me. so every once in a while if you're an alcoholic let me tell you what inspirational thinking sort of feels like and what it looks like it may have happened to you already if it hasn't, it'll probably happen to you in the future this is what it's like you know you come in here you ever notice that alcoholics have a lot of problems no, you ever go to discussion meetings or you ever work with somebody and there's just like a lot OF problems and you ever get the feeling whether you're working with somebody or in your own life that these problems are like major and insoluble it's like trying to untie a knot that you just can't untie there's like no way there's no way of solving this thing somebody's going to have to die you're going to blow it up and start over again divorce it's disrepaired beyond repair your feeble brain can't get through this Albert Einstein said to fix a problem And very often, you have to think at a level higher than the level you were thinking at when you created the problem. And sometimes, you know, it's just way beyond our pay grade. And, you Know, our life is just way Beyond our pay Grade. And so the bottom line is here's what inspirational thinking looks like. You're in a situation. You're with your boss. Anybody ever, everybody have bosses? You have a problem with your Boss. You have A wife. You have husband. You have mother. You have father. You have this. You have people in your life, and these are people that, you know, they may from time to time say things or do things that bother you. Or you may find yourself in a situation with the bank, with the government, with the IRS that sort of like disturbs you. You're like disturbed, you Know, because things are happening. The check bounces, whatever, the scary stuff, you Now. One day you wake up and everything's going fine, and then all of a sudden, kaboom, you get the phone call, okay? This is the bank. You know, you have checks bouncing. You say, but I should have money. I don't care what it is. It's going to happen. It's gonna happen to you. Just when everything's going great and you are feeling fine, you're gonna get a call from the IRS. You're gonna Get the letter from the IRS. You're going to get the thing from the bank, something's going to happen like out of a blue that's absolutely your life is over. Or maybe something small may just be if you're, you know, sometimes I see gals have problems with their moms. I don't know what that's all about, you know. Mother-daughter things, you know. Whatever it is. And what will happen is this thing will happen to you. It'll happen around you. And you know you and you know generally and you will and this will happen and you will say the perfect thing. Whatever the perfect thing is to say, you will say the perfect thing. You will do the perfect thing. As a matter of fact, you may not say anything and that may be the perfect thing. But whatever you do whatever you say, it will be perfect. It'll be so perfect. It'll been so unbelievably incredible that it will blow your mind. Because you will realize that what just happened has nothing to do with you. What you will do is you'll be somewhat astounded by this event that happened around you, then you will go to an AA meeting. Because you can't talk to anybody else about this because nobody else would understand. You don't even understand it. And this is what you'll say. You'll report the incident. You'll say my mother, my father, the bank, this, that, he says. And you'll see and you'll stay and instead of getting mad and you don't understand this thing always gets, I always get mad that's when I got drunk and instead I get mad I did this. And the person calmed down and everything and this is why you will say You'll say, and that's not me. You might have been to a meeting where somebody said, and that is not me! You don't understand, I never do that. That is not be. I don't even know where that came from. That is inspirational thinking. It comes like that. It doesn't come from you. It is coming from somewhere. And it ain't you, because it is coming form him. and he does this world a lot better than you could ever possibly do it or imagine now it's so mind blowing that you you know you start thinking it happens like maybe once a month once a year twice a year three times a year it's an unusual thing but you know what this book says it says it becomes a working part of the mind it says if you do this thing over a period of time you come to rely upon it I mean as exciting as it is to have that kind of thinking and be able to talk and act that way once every two months what would it be like if that's the way you thought and that's how you felt all the time what would your life be like so listen, you can have the not drinking club where you're still saying the stuff you used to say and feeling the stuff you used to feel, or you could have the inspirational thinking club. You understand what I'm saying? It's your life. You can have whatever you want to have, the inspirational thinking. The inspirational thinking comes from the 11th step. And unfortunately, the 11st step comes from your relationship with God. I mean, who's going to take over this brain of yours. Who's going to do this deal? It's either going to be you and we've actually seen how your life looks when you're handling it or it's goingto be him that's your decision so now that I've gone into that, you know, it's a little bit of a basis that's what we're looking for, the inspirational thinking, I want to read you a couple of things here I'm going to read just something out of chapter to the agnostic, this is basic AA stuff let's start with chapter to the agnostics they have a chapter in the book it's called chapter totheagnostics it's actually the only chapter written to agnosticks or atheists you may not realize this, AA takes a stand on agnosticism and atheism now in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous and in the Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers The stand AA takes is that this thinking of agnosticism and atheism must be abandoned. Now, you know that we have freethinkers groups. You know that мы have groups where atheists can go. You may get the feeling that AA, because these groups are there and because we allow people that are atheists and agnostics, we want them to come here. But we want him to come hier because eventually we want to get this thing. You may think that AA endorses that, but that's because you'd be relying on what we call the wisdom of the rooms. Because when you think the rooms go for it, that's what the theology is of Alcoholics Anonymous. That's not what AlcoholicsAnonymous is all about. Alcoholics Anonymous is very simple. It says this kind of thinking has to be abandoned. As a matter of fact, I sort of like the way Dr. Bob put it in his story where he says on page 181 if you think you are an atheist an agnostic a skeptic or have any other form of intellectual pride which keeps you from accepting what is in this book you have to have a relationship with God I feel sorry for you now don't get mad at me I'm just reading what Dr. Bob Smith says the co-founder of Alcoholics Anonymous He says, your heavenly father will never let you down. So maybe one day New York will sort of rip his, they'll just take his story out of here and rip it and throw it away and take all that God stuff out and maybe even take the higher power stuff out and throw It away and it won't be alcohol synopsis. It'll be whatever, but everybody will be happy. But that's how Dr. Bob in the big book treats atheism and agnosticism. Now what you need to understand is this anti-atheism and agnosticism, this pro-God stuff, okay? Runs all through the big book. And yet somehow in some way the atheism and Agnostic system is very prevalent in our thinking today and can lead you into all sorts of different areas. Let me read you chapter of the Agnostics. If a mere code... Now listen to this. If a mirror code... This is page 44. If a mere code of morals, or a better philosophy of life, were sufficient to overcome alcoholism, we would have recovered long ago. But we have found that such codes and philosophies did not save us, no matter how much we tried. We could wish to be moral. We could Wish to be philosophically confident. In fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there. Our human resources, as marshaled by the will, were not sufficient. They failed utterly. I mean, this is a key point in alcoholics and honest. It has to do with powerlessness. The first step. Lack of power. That was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live and it had to be a power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how are we to find this power? Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a power greater than yourself which will solve your problem and that means we have written a book which we believe to be spiritual as well as moral and it means, of course that we are going to talk about God you understand? it's pretty simple, right? good orderly direction is not AA it's something that somebody dreamed up it sounds good it almost sounds like God it's a way, now there may be somebody here using good order that's fine, don't drink because I say this but I'm just suggesting what the book says if that's what you need in order to bridge the gap and get to where you have to go that is a better philosophy now who can argue against good order who can do the next right thing do the right thing and good orderly direction powered by your will is like I'm not going to drink again. It's like I am never going to steal the money. I'll never do that again. It doesn't work for us over the long run because unfortunately we are the ones who determine what is good orderlily direction. Do you understand that? It would work fine as long as we were not the ones who determined good orderlies direction. Now if I was your sponsor and you said Rush you're going to determine good orderlie direction then that would be very good, every time you decide to do anything you'd call me up and I'd say Sharon, no that's not good orderly direction you're going to have to give the money back and then you could fire me and get another sponsor because I disagree with you and you think I'm full of shit you know, you could do that good order direction, do the next right thing is the wisdom of the room's way of watering this thing down sufficiently so that something where they say does not work all of a sudden becomes the mainstay of the rule a good, in other words a better philosophy of life a better moral compass will do it they say that's not the deal you say good or only direction, do the next right thing all of a sudden it is the deal and it's so subtle and it sounds so good and after all it doesn't hurt anybody's feelings when we talk about God you know what I mean and then you got old Paul, poor Dr. Bob saying if you're an atheist agnostic or you don't believe in what I'm saying in this book and I'm saying it pretty crazy, I feel sorry for you. And you think you're doing AA. But what you'redoing is the not drinking club. Now listen, you can have your own opinion about anything. You just can't have yourown facts. You read the book. You read what they say. Unless you twist or massage the English language to such a point where it's meaningless. And here's the deal. There is a difference. There are consequences to watering this thing down. There are consequence to not doing it. and they don't show up necessarily in the first month or the first year, they show up in 18 years they showup in 20 years they showp in living a life of quiet desperation and feeling sorry for yourself like it's 16 and 12 years because in the beginning you bought the lie you didn't buy the truth and so you don't get the inspirational thinking you get something else but to get an AA the only thing we care about is you haven't had a drink today right? we have birthday parties right? What are the birthday parties about? Birthday parties are about not drinking. And that's the most important thing. And it is important, isn't it? You know, I mean, my sponsor used to say, if you haven't had a drink no matter what's going on, if your success, then that's true. But we know like Bill Wilson said, A is like a spiritual kindergarten. But by the time you've been here about two or three or four or five years, it'd be nice to go from kindergarten to maybe like second grade or third grade. Well, what about getting into that group where it says the men and the boys, what about when you get into that men and the boys thing? Where they talk about later on the fellowship of the spirit. How about that fellowship ofthe spirit group? That fellowship, how are we going to get in the fellowshipofthespiritgroup? Which has to do with the men, not the boys, which apparently that separation happens during the sixth step. And apparently the men are the ones who are consistently and repeatedly trying to grow in the image and likeness of their own creator. These are the once that are all able to call themselves men and the boys are the ones that I guess don't have a creator. They're just doing good orderly direction. They're just doing the next right thing. I mean, there's just no denying what the program says but here's the problem. If I go with what the program says I'm going to be in conflict with what the fellowship says. Well, People's Anonymous says. I'm going to go to a room and I'm going to say this stuff and people are going to get mad and walk out. Who invited him to speak? That's not what we talk about here. No, because what you talk about here is not what they talk about in this book. But we've become a culture in Alcoholics Anonymous where the actual practice of this thing in many groups not in all groups but in many group is actually antithetical to what it talks about in the book. Does that make any sense what I'm saying? Okay, so let me read you a couple of things. You know, it's really when you think about it, it's amazing how you can have a book that says the stuff I'm about to read and come out with a different conclusion. I mean, it really is amazing how you could sort of like dumb down so much so that you could just not figure this stuff out and not see how apparent it is. But it really isn't that amazing when you realize you're dealing with... Are you ready for this? Alcoholics, very good. You know, it's not so amazing when you realize you're dealing with alcoholics who have also codependency and want other people to like them and don't want people to laugh at them and are worried about being humiliated. You can understand that in situations like that. You're just going along with whatever, you know? Let's kill them. Yeah, sure. What are you, stupid? Yeah, kill them! We'll go along with anything. We'll buy anything as long as they'll like us, you Know? Yeah, but if I say they're going to not like me, they're gonna laugh at me. My group, yeah, but they laughed at me, they still told me not to do that. You know, that's the way we are. It's very hard to stick to the right deal when you're worried about, when your whole life is spent worrying about whether somebody's going to judge you badly or think about you badly or talk about you behind your back. It's a lot of work. It's really, really difficult. It takes a lot courage. It takes faith when your entire life is being a chameleon and trying to act in such a way that nobody will talk bad about you and that's what your whole life is about thinking about yourself when other people think about you it's very hard not to go along with the crowd but the crowd is going to hell the crowd is on their way to hell the crowd is on their way to drinking the crowd is on their way to feeling sorry for themselves the crowd is on their way out of here you're worried about the crowd why don't you worry many are cold why don' t you worry about the one why don''t you be concerned And, you know, it says you'll surely meet some of us. Not all of us, some of US as you treasure. And you will meet your son. There's just a few. It becomes pretty obvious later on. I really do think it becomes obvious down the road in 10 or 15 or 20 years what the deal is here. It becomes obvious in a person's life. Okay, let's go through this real fast and then I want to tell you a little bit about my deal. We started a little late so I'm going to go just a couple minutes late. the great fact is just this and nothing less that we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude towards life, towards our fellows in God's universe the central factor of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous he has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves I mean, I don't know, is belief in God is it important? I don' t know, let's see I don''t know you know, it says it says how about this further on clear cut directions are given showing how we recover these are followed by 42 personal experiences each individual in the personal stories describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God you know what today's story is about you think it's about a drunk lot you think oh then I got drunk and then I get drunk and a lot of them are but you know what the real story is it's the way you establish your relationship with God that's what it says from his own language, from his own point of view, the way he established his relationship with God. That's what it's about. Hey, you think that's something? How about this? We think in no concern of ours... Now listen, remember we said, don't we read the things rarely I've seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path? Don't they say that? Who's thoroughly followed our path? We think in low concern of us what religious bodies our members identify themselves with as individuals. Religion. Bad. Right? this should be entirely a personal affair which each one decides for himself in light of past associations or his present choice not all of us join religious bodies okay but most of us favor such membership you belong to an association where it says rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path and that also says most of us favor association with religious denominations and because of the wisdom of your rooms you think religion is bad. You think that the way they did AA before was they were non-religious or anti-religious or something like that when nothing could be further from the truth. As a matter of fact, Blade Wrongbook, they said we lose our prejudice even against organized religion. We begin to see where that's right. Why is that important? Because later on in the group it talks about God showing you how to create, God showing you how to create the fellowship you crave. God will show you how to create, and the last line says God will tell you how To create the Fellowship You Crave because your fellowship, who you fellowship with, will determine what your conversations are. It will determine and if it is true that alcoholics worry about what other people think about them, it will probably determine who it is we're worried about what they think about us. You know what I mean? Listen, I almost died out there running around trying to do things other people were doing that was self-destructive. Now, you know something? Who you fellowship with is who you're going to become. What you're going to be interested in. If you fellowshiped with somebody who's always talking about playing sports, then all you're gonna be thinking about is sports. If you're a guy always talking bout girls and having sex that's all you gonna be thinkin' about. If you've got a girl that fellowships with people that are always talkin' about you know, I don't know, vanity stuff or blouses or shopping at May that's what your thought life is going to be about. If you join an organization like a church you know or a synagogue and what they're talking about is God and they're reading spiritual material and they are doing that all the time that's when you are going to thinking about I don' t know whether you realize this but we have 11 steps which leads to inspirational thinking and it talks about prayer and meditation it talks abut your thought live your thought life has to do with your relationship with God it goes through is your relationship with God important I mean is that important it says right here after we go through step three I offer myself to thee to build me and do with me as thou wilt believe me of the bondage of self it says we thought well before taking this step making sure that we were ready that we can last abandon ourselves utterly to him I mean you abandon yourself utterly to Him you're thinking about Him all the time you're talking about Him He's a central part of your life How about this part right over here? Let's keep on going. Wait a second, here it is. In chapter 5. No, not chapter 5, it's in the... Let me find it here. Is it important? How about this? there you go 12 how about this alcoholics who have derided religious people it says though a family has no religious connections they may wish to make contact with or take membership in a religious body did you know that's in here alcoholics who have Derided Religious People will be helped by such contacts being possessed of a spiritual experience the alcoholic will find that he has much in common with these people though he may differ with them on many matters if he does not argue about religion he will make many new friends and is sure to find new avenues of usefulness and pleasure he and his family can be a bright spot in such congregations he may bring new hope and new courage to many a priest, minister or rabbi who give his aid to ministers to our troubled world do you hear that now called synonymous? no, you don't hear that you didn't even realize that existed maybe some of you did You know why? Because you'll never hear that in the AA room. It's in the book, it's in our literature, it's how we're supposed to think about religion, you'll Never Hear That. You know Why? Because there's an antipathy in the rooms, in the fellowship, the fellowship by the way are made up of what? Alcoholics, okay. As this book, which is the program, this is the Program, you're not the Program. The way the rooms do it is not the program. This is the problem. Because when this group, this book, goes into the alcoholic minds of any group, the alcoholic mines of the group sort of sift it down so it's good for the lowest common denominator. And 90% of the good stuff is filtered out and never talked about because it bothers one person. And so what you end up feeding on is the weakest of the weakest of the program about false anonymous, thinking that it's the program and it's not the program. And you wonder why you're not getting out of this, what you should be getting out of this. How about going over to let no alcoholic say that he cannot recover unless he has his family back. This just isn't so. In some cases the wife will never come back for one reason or another. Remind the prospect that his recovery is not dependent upon people, it's dependent upon his relationship with God. It says this, The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcohol commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God. He clamors for this or that, claiming he cannot master alcohol until his material needs are cared for. Nonsense. Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth. Job or no job, wife or no wife, we simply do not stop drinking as long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence upon God." Burn the idea! Burn the idea! You ever have people say, well don't talk about God because it might you might scare the newcomer away? I'll tell you what the book Alcoholics Anonymous says. It says, burn the idea in the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trusts in God and a clean house. And on, and on, and on. Oh, the whole book, the same thing. And then you finally arrive on the 11th step. Step 11, which says now that you have conscious contact with God, now you've got to do what you can. This is your job, to improve that relationship. Because that's what's going to really change you. Because the truth of the matter is, sort of like the shark, we've got to keep on moving. I'll tell you what, you may have 10 years, you May have 15 years, I'll Tell you, this thing is a sneaky son of a gun. You know it says it's easy to rest on a program of action, Rest on our laurels, but we're having trouble. It is easy. It is Easy to have 5 years. You know when you have 5 Years, or 4 years, or 10 years Or 15 years or 20 years It is EASY when people are patting you on the back It is easy when you've got five years and you don't feel like having a drink. It is easier to basically settle for that and say you're doing this thing and rest on your laurels. It is easily, right up until the day you drink again. I mean, you guys have been around here long enough that you've seen guys with five years, six years, three years, 18 years. You hear people talk, raise their hands in groups and say, I used to have 15 years and then I drank again. You've seen that happen. You say to yourself, how does that happen? I'll tell you how it happens. Because they don't move forward. Because why should they move forward? They're going to do good orderly direction. You know, based upon... They're not hanging around with people in church. They're hanging around with themselves thinking about what the next right thing is and trying to do the right thing and then why would they need you anyway? You know they've got this thing. They've got the five years. But somehow, someway, it all comes out in the end. Nobody gets away with anything in this deal. So what happened now? this is where I want to just sort of talk about this is just my life and what's happened to me. And it's not because I'm bright because I am not bright, because when I was bright I was doing just the opposite and I'll tell you, if you are an alcoholic I know how to rationalize things, I know how to tell myself rationalize believe me, nobody can pick apart pick apart religion let me tell you something, I study the bible if there is any document that can be picked apart you know this great line the apostle Paul said The natural man doesn't accept these things. They're foolishness to them, you know? I mean, if there's any document that can be picked apart, it's the Bible. I mean trust me. You know, I get it. I get that deal. I get the argument, okay? If God is a loving God, how come all these people are dying? I get every argument in the book, okay, if there is any document that can pick apart, you now what I mean? If there is a profession that can picked apart I guess it's Roman Catholic priests. I mean, you could pick apart all that stuff and leave it in ruins, you know. And sort of think high thoughts and mighty thoughts about human beings because we're so nice and wonderful. You know what I mean? A la Hitler. You know What I mean. We say, you Know. But I'm going to tell you what the deal is. The deal with me is somehow, some way, and this is how it happened to me. I ran into people in Alparks Anonymous. That's the problem. You run into people that I wanted what they had. You know, that's what happens. you run into people and you say, man I like this I want what this guy has and every time I ran into somebody who I wanted what they had they'd always throw a piece of that literature at me somehow, someway you know it says in Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers it says right here, and you know I've said it before Dr.Bob noting that there were no 12 steps at the time and that our stories didn't amount to anything to speak of later said that they were convinced that the answer to their problems was the good book, the Bible to some of us older ones, the parts that we found absolutely essential absolutely essential was Sermon on the Mount the 13th chapter of 1 Corinthians and the book of James later on he does the first A.V. and he reads SermON ON THE MOUNT when I came into Alcoholics Anonymous my first sponsor gave me a copy of Evan Fox's SermOn On The Mount so I mean you know the truth of the matter is when you think about it if what your desire is to get down to the meat and potatoes of it and you want to If Dr. Bob was still around and Bill Wilson was still around and you were going to those meetings between 1935 and 1939 I got some news for you. You'd be studying and reading the Bible. You would be going through quiet times. That's the stuff you would be reading. It wouldn't be good orderly direction it wouldn't do the next right thing. You wouldn't read Sermon on the Mount You would read the book of James. You could be studying that in groups in Alcoholics Anonymous that's what you'd be, well the guy and I guess you would do it because you'd want, I guess she would do it because of this guy, Alcoholics Anonymous number three, what did he say he said in Dr. Alcoholics Anonymous number three he said these lines he said it would be hard to estimate how much AA has done for me I really wanted the program and I wanted to go along with it, I noticed that others seemed to have such a release of happiness as something I thought a person ought to have, I was trying to find the answer I knew there was even more something I hadn't got, something I hadn't gotten. And I remember one day a week or two after I'd come out of the hospital Bill was at my house talking to my wife and me. We were eating lunch and I was listening and trying to find out why they had this release that they seemed to have. Bill looked across at my wifeand said to her, Henrietta the Lord has been so wonderful to me curing me of this terrible disease that I just want to keep talking about it and telling other people. I thought I think I had the answer. Bill was very very grateful that he had been released from this terrible thing and he had given God the credit for having done it and he's so grateful about it he wants to tell other people about it that sentence the Lord has been so wonderful to me freeing me of this terrible disease that I just want to keep telling people about it has been a sort of golden text of the aid program for me you were hanging around Bill Wilson do you think you didn't understand that he was not an agnostic that he wasn't an atheist that he believed that he actually was a Christian that he read the Bible you think these guys didn't get that you know that I mean you think these guys thought he was talking about doing the next right thing or good orderly direction you know so I ran into these guys and they were throwing this stuff at me now you can get mad at that you're not going to be mad at that you know and that way you can wipe that out and make believe it never happened okay but I didn't get mad at that because I wanted what they had I didn' t necessarily want their theology I wanted any of that but I wanted what they have what they are going for so I read the material just like I read this material just like I read this material I got involved 15 years sober some guy tapped me on the shoulder and said you want to go to a Bible study I said I'm a Jewish kid from New York we don't do Bible studies he says ok you want it anyway because I was scared I don't know why I was thinking about what my grandmother might think she's been dead for 20 years maybe she'll be rolling over in a grave but the point is I went I hung around with 50 men gray haired guys, 30 years older than me my sponsor now is a Baptist preacher I have another member who's a Baptist these are guys I hang out with they're 20-30 years older than me I go to like 2 or 3 Bible studies a week you know I go to 2 different church services this doesn't have to appeal to you I'm not saying I'm really not saying you have to do this stuff a lot of the guys I get out with they may not belong to the same denomination They may go to different churches. I'm very, very much involved in ministry now. I started one called the Live Yet at My Church and things like that. You know, this is before, and get this, this all happened before, before, I hate to even say this, I read the part in the book where it says, many of us, most of us favor such, you know, it says join. I didn't read that stuff about the, I was doing it for some reason. I read this book cover to cover and I was studying it and I missed all that stuff about joining religious organizations is becoming more and more involved. You know what becoming more and More Involved with religious organizations is about? It's about what a person who's actually doing this thing looks like. That's why they have it in there. They say, most of us favorites, this is what we do, this is how we do it, this is going to happen to you. You know, as you get sober and more and less and less and more worried about that stuff and more and more you're focusing on God and you're doing the 11th step and you want to get close to Him, what do you think your natural predilection would be? Go to baseball games? What do you think a natural predilection would be? Hang out at bars, go to titty bars, watch Dancing with the Stars. The person who naturally follows this stuff is going to join religious organizations. It may be a synagogue, it may be the Catholic Church, it may Be, I don't know, Hinduism, whatever. They're going to joint religious organizations because that's what the focus of this book is all about and that's why they were doing it. I mean, it's logical if you want to use logic. And I found myself doing this stuff And now all of a sudden I'm reading the book and it's talking about joining religion. I said, man, I'm doing that stuff. It took me only 15, 16 years to do it. So what's the bottom line on this? Here's the button line. You are who you hang out with. I'm sorry. Your mom was right. You lie down with dogs, you get up with fleas. You know what I mean? You are whom you hangout with. You hangout mit people that talk about crap. you're thinking about it and talking about crap I don't care how many times you read I don'T CARE ABOUT THE FACT THAT YOU GET UP IN THE MORNING AND YOU READ A NICE SPIRITUAL THING AND THEN YOU GO AND TALK WITH YOUR GIRLFRIENDS OR BOYFRIEND ABOUT CRAP THE MORE YOU FOCUS ON THE BULLSHIT OF LIFE THE MORE THAT IS THE ONLY THING YOU'RE THINKING OF DON'T EXPECT TO HAVE INSPIRATIONAL THINKINGS DON'T ESPECT THAT TO COME UPON YOU BUT WHY WOULD YOU HAVE INSPIRATIONAL THINGS when the only thing you're thinking about is yourself and stuff the more you hang around people that are thinking and talking about him you know and I'm not talking about what religion you belong to the more you hang around fellowships that are thinking and talking about him and I'll tell you something I love Al Cox and I look going to AA meetings this is not necessarily the place where they're thinking and talking about him there are some meetings here and you can go to them and you can find them where they think and talk about Him a lot. And there are a lot of means where they don't like it when you think and talked about Him. They want good or... They think this is a psychological deal. I'm sorry, they don' t want to hear about Him, it's a psychological dea. You know, you just change and you get smarter and better and more psychological and basically you're God, you know, and you can handle things and you just become stronger. I mean, there's such a predilection against this book. You know? you know when you see these programs, they have them on TV I don't know what the names of them and they'll say, come to California we're not a 12 step program you know what I think they're really saying they're saying we won't talk to you about God that's what they're say we won'y talk to your about God and that thinking that way it is has permeated alcoholics and honest there are groups that will just kill you if you talk about God in any concrete way You can sort of mention them passing. You can say God once or twice, but you better say higher power once or twice and you better not do what I'm doing. You know what I mean? God forbid you mention Jesus Christ. You're dead. You're never coming back to this. Don't talk about the Bible. Don't tell me that stuff. So here's what happens, but here's what happens. When you get really into this deal, when you really get into this deal and you start hanging around those peoples and you don't have to understand it, you don' t even have to agree with all of it. what you do is you find yourself hanging around with these people if you're a good alcoholic like I was, you find yourselves thinking like they think, reacting like they react thinking about God, thinking about God's relation with you, you're always thinking about that stuff I'll tell you this, I don't know about you but I'm very undisciplined you know, I'm thinking about whatever is in front of me, I walk out of here and I drive down the street and there's a billboard with a good looking gal on it next to a car, I am thinking about good looking gals and cars. You know what I mean? I turn on the TV, and there's something going on on there, you know, some sort of, you know, whatever it is, deal that's going on there. And believe me, when I turn on TV, they're never talking about God on TV. They're talking about other stuff, you know. I'm looking at that stuff. Anything I can do, I, until, unless and until an alcoholic accepts his alcoholism, and all its consequences, his sobriety will be precarious, if true happiness will find none at all. I accept the consequences of my alcoholism. I accept the fact that I have, I have a screwed up mind that's addictive and obsessive. I accept the fact that my mind focuses on material things because I'm scared. I accept the act that it's undisciplined and that I can be led astray just like Bill Wilson by worldly clamors and no matter how much I intend to be a good guy, you put a nice car in front of me, you puts something in front of me that other somebody has that I don't have, that I'm envious, I'm covetous, I've lustful. I accept that fact that no matter much I want to do this thing, I look at the world, I look people and it takes me away from this fact. So I accept that fact, and I do things to operate against that. I surround myself with people and mentors that are always beckoning me to talk about God. And if that's going to be in the Presbyterian Church, then I go to the Baptist Church, the Baptist Church. Roman Catholic, well, I became an Emmaus brother. That's Roman Catholic because I hung around with a fellowship of guys, Catholic guys, who I sponsored some of them, okay? And they're talking about God, you know? You know what I find? I find the more I surround, I become what I surround myself with. And you know something? I want this stuff. I want to be, because when I think about him and I'm always thinking about him, and don't kid yourself, no matter how much you surround yourself with this stuff, this world has a way of creeping in and capturing your mind. Don't kid yourself. You could be going to church night and day, you know what I mean? This world is powerful. It'll come in and it'll grab your brain. It'll do it. I've got to put on that full armor every day. You know, that's what I got to do every day. One day at a time. And the bottom line is what I find is when I do this stuff that when I take concrete you know, into action when I make action steps by populating my life with people that are like that okay, and stay away from the people that are beckoning me to go the other way you know I always get these he says, well what do you think about this? Why don't we go there? You know what happens to me is I grow in my relationship with him. Because your relationship you know if I say I have a good relationship with you what that means is I'm always thinking about you I'm almost talking to you we have conversations I know what you think about I know when you talk about you know I so I know you because I have relationship with you if I'm not talking to you if I am not thinking about you if you are just an afterthought I don't have any good relationship with you so I need to hang around I need somehow manufacture my life or remanufacture my life, or be the architect of my life so that I'm almost forced against my better judgment to focus on him. Does that make any sense? And now, I can't take any credit. I really don't. I have no idea how I got here. I was a Jewish kid from New York and all I cared about was Playboy magazines and fast cars and getting a law degree. How I wound up as a deacon in a Presbyterian church, 32 years sober preaching this crap, I don't have a flipping clue you know what I mean I can tell you this it had absolutely nothing to do with me don't blame me it's not my fault it had to do with something else desire to be something else wanting something else if you want what we have and you're willing to go to any length then you're ready that kind of thing that desire had to deal with something and it's taken me over it's captured me it's too late for me save yourself, it's too late for me I've been warped but I'm happy the way I am, so I guess what the answer is if you're hearing what I'm saying and you get what I've given out and you want this deal, and you read the book yourself, and it seems to you that maybe I'm not totally off the wall maybe that's the deal, maybe that'S what these old times were involved in this is what the deal is then maybe thatS the thing you've got to get involved in I'm not telling you what church to go to I'm saying worship some God go to some church get involved in some fellowship don't make this deal which is spiritual kindergarten your whole deal and expect to get what these guys got because AA wasn't their whole deal AA was part of the deal which launched them into the real meat and potatoes of this thing. You understand what I'm saying? Okay, thank you. God bless you.