Types of Alcoholics – Big Book Workshop – Westfield Big Book Workshop – Part 2 of 2 – Rose C.

God please help me set aside everything I think I know about myself my disease these steps and especially you for an open mind and a new experience with myself my disease these steps and especially you. Where are we? Is it for you? No, we're in the middle of two wives. In the middle of two lives? Yeah. Okay so we're the middle two wives and without further ado I'd like to introduce Rose. Hi everybody my name is Rose, I'm an alcoholic. Hi Rose. Originally Dave asked me he had given me some subjects you know different chapters to present on and this week I was actually supposed to do a vision for you but I got kind of hung up into wives last week because it's just such an important chapter and a lot of times you don't hear about it in the in the meeting so I figured I was like you know I just love it so much so I figure I'd try to pass on that enthusiasm to you where we left off was kind of in the middle and it was like in between pages 110 and 112 Well, it was right after the part where they talk about the four different types of alcoholics. And, you know, going through the four difference types of alcoholic, I found out pretty quickly, like really when I got here, I thought I was a high-bottom drunk. I really did. I thought it was a hi-bottle drunk. I was too young. I'd only drank for 10 years. You know, I really thought I as a high bottom drunk. And so, of course, being a high bottle drunk, I didn't think that a lot of the stuff in the AA program applied to me. you know it was my excuse for doing nothing um you know as far as steps go um and i found out pretty quickly that i am not a high bottom drunk in any way shape or form i am a real alcoholic i'm a i'm in between a three and a four you know on this little thing there are several parts in the book where they talk about different types of alcoholics and hard drinkers and they just they make a distinguishment between what a hard drinker is and what an alcoholic is. An alcoholic, like I know me, I know that I'm an alcoholic. I used to party with a girl who was a hard drunker. And after she was no longer friends with me, she didn't drink so much anymore. I drank more, you know. When I actually made amends to her, she's like, well, wait a minute, we drank the same. And I said, yeah, I Know. And she's Like, Well, Am I an Alcoholic? I go, Well What Happened After Our Friendship Ended? And she's like, well, it just kind of stopped. And I'm like, oh. She goes, well what happened to you? I'm Like, oh, it got worse. It got much worse. And she said, you're kidding. I said, oh yeah. She had no idea. You know, I went on drinking for another, I guess, four years or five years after that friendship ended. so um anyway the nice thing about being a number three four alcoholic is that um it's actually the most hopeful you know because we don't have a whole lot to fight with anymore you know we've tried everything else i mean i tried getting other people to fix me i tried figuring out if money could fix me I wanted education to fix my I wanted my family to fix me. You know, I wanted circumstances to fix me. If everything on the outside would just stay put the way I wanted it to, I kind of figured that I would be okay. And that was not the way it turned out at all. Every time I'd get something that I thought I needed in order to be okay, my life would blow up again somewhere else. You now, it just seems like that constantly happened um after that little section it talks about how to approach an alcoholic you know depending on what type of alcoholic they are and you know there's a lot different things in here you know um you know that are suggestions to somebody who's in relation with an alcoholic or you know even if as me as somebody working with a newcomer you know it says do not set your heart on reforming your husband in the middle of page 11 or your sponsee or anybody else in meetings try you know I don't need to reform anybody if I got something you want you'll know it if you don't want what I have you'll know that too that's totally cool I'm good with that you know there's on page 112 it says suppose your husband fits the description of number 2 the same principles apply with husband number one, same principles which apply to husband number one should be practiced. But after his next binge, okay, sounds like when you're working with somebody who's maybe a chronic relapser. After the next binge don't try to stop him from drinking please. Let him drink. After their next binge ask him if he would really like to get over drinking for good. So many people come into this program just because of like you know a DWI or something like that. They have no intention on staying sober for the rest their life. They don't even know why they need to. They don't understand it. And if you can't convince somebody that they're absolutely hopeless and absolutely, you know, going to die without this program, we can't waste our time. You know, we cannot waste our time, we cannot waste their time. Maybe they do need another binge, you know? Do not ask that he do it for you or anyone else, just would he like to, you know? Would you like to get over drinking for good? It's a nice question. The next page, it says at the top in the first paragraph, if he is lukewarm or thinks he is not an alcoholic, we suggest you leave him alone. It's not me that's saying, you know, leave an alcoholic who's not willing alone. It's the book that tells me that. Avoid urging him to follow our program. The seed has been planted. Okay? You hear about this all the time, the mustard seed. You know, you plant a mustard seed about recovery. Sometimes it doesn't grow right away. Sometimes it does not take root right away Sometimes you just got to sprinkle a little more alcohol on it In order to get it to go You know But once it starts You know That seed That there is a solution Is planted You know There is a section in here on page 115 I know this chapter kind of bounces around a lot But it's, on page 115, there's this really important paragraph that I absolutely love. You know, when we talk about, all right, so we get sober. We've got a lot of baggage. A lot of really embarrassing, horrible stuff happens when we're drinking. And we come into the rooms of AA and we don't want anybody to know any of it, right? You know? And our family members feel the same way too. You know. They don't wanna talk about any of It. I had to give my parents permission to talk about my alcoholism because they actually come into contact with people on a regular basis who have kids or grandkids or best friends who are alcoholic and they don't know what to do and they want to be of service. Imagine that. My mother actually like 12-stepped some woman and she ended up going AA and getting sober. That's crazy. She's not an alcoholic. She just did it through what I, you know, conveyed to her. You know, I said, you can talk about me all you want. Why? I'm probably never going to meet these people. And if they did meet me already, trust me, they knew I was a drunk. It was obvious. If the Jack Daniels bottle in my purse didn't give it away, I don't know what did. It says on page 115, it says, We find that most of this embarrassment is unnecessary. They're talking about the embarrassment of things that happen when they're drinking. Most of this harassment is unnecessary while you need not discuss your husband at length. You can quietly let your friends know the nature of his illness, but you must be on guard not to embarrass or harm, okay? We don't gossip about sick people. We do talk about them when they need help, okay. You know, if I have a newcomer who comes in and she's struggling and I'm the only person she's talking to, I've got nine sponsees that may or may not see her at a meeting. So they need to know that she's strugling so that when they do see her, they can go up and grab her and say hey how you doing this is a fellowship it's not just for me and my sponsees and we're going to keep it all together that's not what it's all about it's about being helpful now I also don't announce in the beginning of a meeting that so and so is having an issue today and maybe you should call her up no that'snot what we're talking about but when people are struggling we don't gossip about it But we also, we do discuss. There is discussion, and it's healthy discussion. It's not coming from a place of trying to harm anybody. At the bottom of the page, well, this whole section actually, they talk about how, you know, when dealing with children of alcoholics, you know the same principle applies in dealing with the children. Unless they actually need protection from their father, it is best not to take sides in any argument he has with them while drinking. Use your energies to promote a better understanding all around. Then that terrible tension which grips the home of every problem drinker will be lessened. I talk to parents and siblings and spouses of alcoholics all the time. They all have my number, you know. And I tell them, if your wife's going nuts, give me a call. You know? frequently you have felt obliged to tell your husband's employer and his friends that he was sick when as a matter of fact he was tight avoid answering these inquiries as much as you can whenever possible let your husband explain your desire to protect him should not cause you to lie to people when they have a right to know where he is and what he is doing discuss this with him when he is sober and in good spirits ask him what you should do if he places you in such a position Again, I do this with sponsees, especially the chronic relapsers who have legal issues. They love to give my number to their parole officer. That's fine, but please know that I will be telling them the truth. I'm not going to sit here and lie for you. I'm nicht going zu sitzen hier und zu lügen für einen neuen Sponsor, der nicht die Richtung folgt. Wenn sie die Richtung verfolgen, dann werde ich ihnen das sagen. Ich habe eine Befehlung geschrieben, aber die Grundlage ist, dass ich als Sponsore ehrlich sein muss. And I'll do that for anybody that I know in sobriety if they're having legal issues and they need a letter of recommendation or a character letter or something like that. I'm more than happy to do that, but I always let them know I will be telling the truth. So the one that says, hey, will you be my sponsor? And then never calls and never shows up and never does any work in the book and just sees me once every month in a meeting and says, hey, I gave your number to my parole officer. Is that cool? Yeah, sure, but i'm going to tell him the truth Well, what do you mean? Well, that I see you once a month at a meeting every once in a while and you never call. That's what I'm going to tell them. And they go, oh. You know, you rethink that real quick. Okay. On page 116 down in the middle it says, we've elsewhere remarked how much better life is when lived on a spiritual plane. Now this is addressed to family members, okay? The spiritual program of action is not meant just for the alcoholics. This program is meant for alcoholics, yes. But there are other programs for the family. There's the Al-Anon, Al-Ateen, Alatat. There's all different kinds of 12-step programs, and they're all based on these 12 steps. If God can solve the age-old riddle of alcoholism, he can solve your problems too. We wives found that like anyone else, we were afflicted with pride, self-pity, vanity, and all the things which go to make up a self-centered person. And we were not above selfishness or dishonesty. As our husbands began to apply spiritual principles in their lives, we began to see the desirability of doing so too. I can't even tell you how many times I've suggested to family members that they might want to try Al-Anon. Just check it out. It might be helpful. I don't say, you need Al-Anon. I never tell anybody that they need Al Anon. I usually take a little offense at that. But, you know, it's amazing what this disease causes to our family members, our friends, and our loved ones, even when they're not the ones drinking, you know. Okay, page 117, there's a part where it says, if you and your husband are to find a solution for the pressing problem of drink, you are, of course, going to be very happy. But all problems will not be solved at once. Okay? So many times I see people come in and they're like, but I've been sober for 33 days and my life is crap. Yeah. They expect that everything is going to get, like, better instantaneously. That's not the case. That's just not reality, you know. You know, all problems will not be solved at once. Seed has started to sprout in new soil, but growth has only begun. In spite of your newfound happiness, there will be ups and downs. Many of the old problems will still be with you. This is as it should be. Okay? Just because we're having problems in our lives in early sobriety doesn't mean that we're not working a program. It just means that we are living life. You know? How we deal with it is a different ball game. You know. the faith and sincerity of both you and your husband will be put to the test these workouts should be regarded as part of your education for this you will be learning to live you will make mistakes but if you are in earnest they will not drag you down instead you will capitalize them a better way of life will emerge when they are overcome some of the snags you will encounter irritation hurt feelings and resentments your husband will sometimes be unreasonable and you will want to criticize an alcoholic and recovery unreasonable no way you're kidding you know i mean of course you know we're still we're all human beings starting from a speck on the domestic horizon great thunder clouds of dispute may gather these family dissensions are very dangerous especially to your husband often you must carry the burden of avoiding them or keeping them under control never forget that resentment is a deadly hazard to an alcoholic we do not mean that you have to agree with your husband whenever there is an honest difference of opinion just be careful not to disagree in a resentful or critical spirit you know it's and sometimes that's really hard you know in my relationship that i'm in i have a tendency you know if he's in recovery too and i'm in recovery we've known each other for a long time and when he says something that really bothers me you know that's something that's a conflict that's kind of one of those ongoing issues you know he'll say something that really just pushes my button and i just simply say you know what we're gonna have to talk about this later period and he goes did i upset you i'm like yes we're going to have to talking about this letter okay and he says okay i do the same thing with my daughter like she's 17 so there's times when i just want to like you know she just enrages me to the point of no return. And I'll look at her and I'll be like, I have to go to my room for a half hour. Then we'll talk. And she goes, okay. And then I go upstairs. I close the door. I separate myself. Okay. Cause I can't have a healthy discussion with her in that state. I know that, you know, I give her a little bit of a safety net too. You know, we put that little fit a space between us that's you know all part of a healthy relationship you know um it says it right here this is getting serious i'm sorry i got disturbed let's talk about it later you know and the bottom line is is if your husband or one person in the equation is trying to live on a spiritual basis he'll also be doing everything in his power to avoid disagreement or contention that's the truth you know as a as somebody who is recovered if i am going home and picking fights i need to look at that you know i really need to Look at that um it says right in the middle and this probably sounds familiar page 118 right in the middle it says patience tolerance understanding and love are the watch words does that sound familiar to anybody you remember that That was prior in the book, right? They'll repeat stuff that's important. Okay? So that's a little hint. Patience, tolerance, understanding, and love are the watchwords. That's in Step 10. I mean, that's all over the place. Okay. Okay. On page 119. Okay. At the bottom of the page, it says, It is probably true that you and your husband have been living too much alone for drinking many times isolates the wife of an alcoholic. It isolates our entire families. My daughter didn't have play dates and stuff like that because I didn't talk to any mommies. You know, I was too drunk half the time. Therefore, you probably need fresh interests and a great cause to live for as much as your husband. If you cooperate rather than complain, you will find that his excess enthusiasm will tone down. Both of you will awaken to a new sense of responsibility for others. You as well as your husband ought to think what you can put into life instead of how much you can take out. Sound familiar? Yeah. Inevitably, your lives will be fuller for doing so. You will lose the old life to find one much better. Perhaps your husband will make a fair start on the new basis, but just as things are going beautifully he dismays you by coming home drunk oh my god an alcoholic drink shocker ok this happens it's common if you're satisfied he really wants to get over drinking and you need not be alarmed though it is infinitely better that he have no relapse at all as has been true with many of our men it is by no means a bad thing in some cases if your husband will see it once he must redouble his spiritual activities your husband will see it once that he must redouble his spiritual activities if he expects to survive you need not remind him of his spiritual deficiency, he will know it we don't need to remind anybody of their spiritual deficiency even with sponsees when I've got somebody who's just dancing around with self-willed run riot I let them know once and that's it I don't mean to beat at that horse it's their sobriety, not mine um cheer him up and ask how you can be more helpful you know i mean and that i do that with sponsees all the time what can i do to help you nothing okay well call me when you find something whatever you know what am i going to do um 120 we never try to arrange a man's life so as to shield him from temptation we can't do that it doesn't work the slightest disposition on your part to guide his appointments or his affairs so he will not be tempted will be noticed make him feel absolutely free to come and go as he likes this is important if he gets drunk don't blame yourself god has either removed your husband's liquor problem or he has not i love that i love it when people come in and then they go out and they say i had a fight with my wife and that's why I drank. Or I had a fight with my boyfriend and he made me drink. Really? Did he really pin you down and pour the bottle of liquor down your throat? Doubt it, you know. It's not... It's nobody else's responsibility when we drink. That's on us. If not, he had better... It had better be found out right away. Then you and your husband can get right down to fundamentals. If repetition is to be prevented, place the problem along with everything else in God's hands. We realize that we have been giving you much direction and advice. We may have seemed to lecture. If that is so, we are sorry for we ourselves don't always care for people who lecture us. But what we've related is based upon experience, some of it painful. We had to learn these things the hard way. That is why we are anxious that you understand and that you avoid these unnecessary difficulties. So to you out there who may soon be with us, we say good luck and God bless you. You know, that's, I love this chapter. I think it's just awesome. You know? There's so much information here. It's just chock full. Oh, there's another spot that I forgot about that I just saw. Do you want to take a look at page 114? A lot of times I hear, you know, that the program of AA is all we need. You know, that's all we need. And, you know for even when people are having depression and anxiety issues other mental illnesses other different kinds of things it says in here sometimes there are cases where alcoholism is complicated by other disorders a good doctor or psychiatrist can tell you whether these complications are serious, okay? It's important to, you know, it's, you Know, and I have a girlfriend who, you know, got sober, and after a couple of years of sobriety, she was working a program. She was sponsoring girls. She was doing everything she was supposed to be doing. Well, she had a nervous breakdown. It turns out she has a mental illness. So what am I going to, what are any of us going to say to her? What, you shouldn't take meds because they might mess you up? You know, no. She went to a psychiatrist, and she took direction from him. Was it a relapse when she was sitting there drooling on herself when they were trying to stabilize her psychiatrically? No, it's not a relapsed. Of course not. She had no intention of abusing the stuff. She was just trying to get okay. This kind of stuff happens on a regular basis, and it's kind of sad. I actually had a sponsee many, many years ago who had anxiety and panic disorder so severely. I swear to God, the girl looked, her face was like cherry red all the time. I thought she was going to pop an artery, you know, with the anxiety that she was going through. And she was terrified to go to the doctor and get an anti-anxiety medication. And I looked at her. I said, you're going to have a freaking heart attack. I said please, go to your doctor. Go to the Doctor. And if they give you something, take it. You know, the way it's prescribed. you know i mean it's so many times i see people uselessly suffer with stuff like this you know i'm not saying everybody should run out just because you have an anxiety attack and get medded up but it's you know there's certain times when you know these things are very very serious and a lot of times alcoholism disguises that and you can't see other underlying mental illnesses until the alcoholism has been treated you know I um I found out very quickly in sobriety there was a period of time where I um I took an antidepressant not because of depression but to quit smoking it worked that time um for about a year and a half and after you know I was in a bad situation I got really depressed okay and I was still taking the um the medication well I moved out of the situation okay because it's situational depression I moved out of this situation I forgot to refill the prescription, and I realized pretty quickly that I didn't need it. And I was like, oh, I had never been diagnosed with clinical depression. This thing was given to me to help me quit smoking. It had nothing to do with treating depression, right? So later on in my sobriety, when I went through a spell where I was really depressed, it was again another situational thing, and i was really severely depressed, you know, a friend of mine said you know have you talked to your doctor about getting on an antidepressant well I know for a fact that I'm not clinically depressed no I don't need it and I know that you know and that's up to each of us individually to make up make that decision you know um there's So, you know, if you want, we can bounce into the family afterward a little. Do you want to take a break for a couple of minutes and open it up for any comments from the wives before we start? Absolutely. So does anybody have any questions or comments, queries, or complaints about two wives? my name is Peter I'm an alcoholic something you talked about before about when someone's in trouble and sharing it with other people around you I had a situation with someone who was close to me who called me up and was having a problem and came very close to drinking and I didn't feel comfortable I felt the specific situation were important but I didn' t want to make the person I didn't want to break any confidence so I let people know that he was in trouble that without revealing specific like I guess I'm asking how specific do you need to be when you're sharing with someone you know that's perfect that's right that's perfect right there you know I'll make those calls a lot you know so and so is struggling can you give him a ring you know if it's if it'S a male friend of mine I'll call the guys that I know yeah you know if it'S a female friend then you know i'll call the girls in my network you know it's just you know or people that i know that are close to them you know if it's a newcomer i call my sponsees because they've all you know all my anytime i have a newcomER they've met they know that i have a bunch of sponsee and you know they're their sisters and you know they have built-in network instantaneously even if they haven't actually met them which is kind of cool you know it's it's pretty cool and um you know yeah you don't have to give specific specifics you know because when i sit there and i say oh my god you're not going to believe what happened you know that's gossip that's just gossip i you know if i'm struggling i do want somebody to say you know i think rose is really struggling can you reach out to her i don't want you to go and air all my dirty laundry thank you very much You know what I mean? It's not necessary, you know. So, yeah, it's just a matter that I learned. These are all wonderful lessons I learned in sobriety. It's called discretion. There's a difference between, you now, well, there's rigorous honesty and there's discretion and then there's just vomiting all over somebody, you knoW. I mean, I can just open up my mouth and everything that's coming into my head is going to come out And that's not very helpful, usually, for me or them. So, yeah, it's a matter of discretion. Hey, I'm Trish. I'm going to call. Hey, Trish, you know, I forgot to touch on this last week too, but when you were talking about how you thought you were high-bottom drunk when you got here, I felt that quite a few times as I bounced in and out of these rooms over the last probably 10 to 13 years But I realized that, you know, I had slid pretty far down the scale. So what comes to mind is no matter how far down this scale we have gone, many do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. You know, these are all solutions that are coming at me in recovery that I need to hear on a daily basis, which is why meetings are really important. So I was looking in the number four on page 110 description of the alcoholics and it just says he has been placed in one institution after another. He is violent or appears definitely insane when drunk. You know, that's where I was at. I wasn't, I just started my first experiences with the institutions when I got here in 2008. And, you know, although I haven't gone back by the grace of God, you know I was starting that string of events in my life. And, you know that's part of the misery I don't want back. So I love that, you know, Bill talks about the hope for hopeless cases. A lot in this book you hear about that. And at the end of that paragraph where it starts on 110, where it says number four, at the beginning it says, The picture may not be as dark as it looks. Many of our husbands were just as far gone, yet they got well. And then on page 114 where you're talking about the psychiatrist and stuff. You know, I had to see a psychiatrist when I got out of the hospital. I was on medication for mood disorder and psychosis because it was that bad for me and it was the most torturous experience for me. I did go and see a psychologist and a therapist for that first year and I did ultimately go off in the first six months because it Was That Uncomfortable. But I will tell you that once that spiritual awakening occurred in my life, I've come to realize that I don't need it. That, you know, my situational depressions were very similar to what you described when you quit smoking. I went through something very similar fairly recently when I was given the grace or the willingness to put those down. um and my psychiatrist was constantly pushing me as the medication being the solution it's clearly not and i refused it every time so i guess you know be careful you know it says in here that you know for years we've been working with alcoholics committed to institutions since this book was first published a has released thousands of alcoholics from asylums and hospitals of every kind the majority have never returned the power of god goes deep you know that's huge that's huge for me to hear so i'm grateful that while i didn't read this book before i made it into the hospital or went in i'm thankful that i did get to it when i did that because of this book and by the grace of god i may not have to return and experience that misery in my life um so it's like anything else in this program like finding a good sponsor shopping for new shoes finding a doctor you know you have to shop around and find out what works for you um and i just you know want to throw that out there because um that was a very scary time and again my that's part of the misery of my life in in drug use and alcohol use that i don't ever want to experience if I have anything to do with it. So that's all I have. Thanks. Thanks for sharing. Anyone else? Yeah, my name is Randy. Hey, Randy. Glad to be here. We'll read this chapter. I can't help but think what saints these women are. Really, really saints. I don't know if you find too many people with this kind of tolerance and love in the world. I was married twice while active and the best thing that happened to me was the women threw me out and I'm thankful for that because it helped me dig down and get to a bottom because I was good at happiness was going into the plane when there's nobody left you just have the mirror which is really beneficial but I wanted to touch upon the issue you brought up which is very important the issue of medicines and recovery I worked in a mental institution for many years active and then in recovery and many people got committed it was an inpatient psychiatric state hospital with the severest mentally disabled patients many people were mistakenly diagnosed as mentally ill who are in fact the alcoholic or drug addicts. And what you indicated is true. You can't separate the disability when the alcoholism is active. And then once a person gets clean, then you can see whether or not this mental disability still continues on. Because I've seen people in my earlier days in AA telling people not to take meds with no business telling him not to do it, because quote, all meds were bad or whatever the thinking was. And that's led to people's suicides. People who needed medications. We're not doctors. I don't pretend to be a doctor. When I'm here, I'm just a regular alcoholic guy, you know, looking for the same thing we all are in this room, which is recovery. But I also know that you had referred to situational depression. There are some instances where situational depression really dictates the industry that's also, depending on the situation, you know. I have been on, I started using Paxil, which is an antidepressant regularly when I went into recovery. And I continue to do so partly because if it ain't broken, I'll try to fix it. I do understand that I do have an underlying depression as well as the alcoholism and drug addiction. And with my medical circumstances progressively getting more difficult in my life, it's kind of been a godsend in a way. Because this situation is extremely depressing at times. And I'm glad I have the physicians that I talk with are understanding of that and prescribe the meds. And I use meds as prescribed. And there's a lot of misconceptions about meds, many of the antidepressant meds have nothing to do with mood changing. They're not like Valium's or Xanax's or, you know, when you talk about the panic meds, it can be highly addictive medications. And the same with psychotropic meds. The average person taking a psychotrophic med would be like I'd probably be drooling out of the side of my mouth if I took some of those meds but it doesn't really give you like a high so even some people running around saying You know, it gets lousy, man. So I can slide across the room. But it's an important thing to talk about because oftentimes it's not disgusting meetings and people get up, I think, don't get the treatment they need and deserve because of it. And I'm just glad to hear you say that because I think it's important. I've seen people really suffer basically needle sleep. Thanks. Just as a little side note on that, I actually had a sponsee who had open-heart surgery. Now, when we went into surgery, I mean, I went in with her, and it was we spoke to a pain management specialist. They knew that she was an alcoholic addict in recovery. Yeah, they were cracking her chest. Yes, she was going to need some medicine, and non-narcotics weren't going to do it. So, yeah, she wasn't going through the same thing. She was on all that crazy stuff. She had to be. and you know the man the pain management specialist it was very funny because right before you know she was very concerned about you know getting hooked very concerned about that and she he just looked at her and he said I just gave my best friend his 22 year coin I understand that's awesome not all people in the medical community are like that you got to find them you got to seek them out you know and And just like our sobriety is our own responsibility, our health is our only responsibility. And if I'm not comfortable with a... If I tell a doctor that I'm allergic to opiates and C-chlor and sulfa drugs and he gives me C-Chlor, sulfa, and an opiate, I'm going to be sick. I'm finding a new doctor. You know what I'm saying? So it's something that... Like, I don't think that there's any hard, fast rules on any of it. But I also do believe that as a sponsor, when I'm working with new people, I need to know what their medication status is and whether or not they're currently under treatment. And if they are, they have to be compliant with their psychiatrist or psychologist or whoever's medical plan is for them in order for us to continue doing the step work. Start tinkering with your meds? we have to stop because it's, you know, they do relate to each other. You know what I mean? So it's a – but thank you very much. I really appreciate it. The point you made – excuse me for interrupting. The point that you made that's really important is that we need to let the physicians know what we are. You know, I've had those surgeries and I remember getting ready to leave the hospital after surgery, after getting opiates and all kinds of painkillers, and the doctor's giving me some aspirin saying you're going home. And I think, son of a bitch, maybe I shouldn't have told him. But that's what we have to do. Dave Vaughn, Grateful Recovered Alcoholic. Me too. Trish actually read the one thing that I wanted to read. Darn her. On 114, where it says for years We've been working with alcoholics, and it ends that paragraph with the power of God goes deep. You know, I've never really spent a lot of time into wives. I thought, you know, the hell with the wives, you knows? What am I going to learn there? But I'm glad you've spent some time these last two weeks on it. One of the things that's good about the study guide is that there's a little footnote after it says The Majority Have Never Returned, which you won't see in the big book, only in the study guide. It says in the first edition, this read about a year ago, a certain state institution released four chronic alcoholics. It was fully expected that they would all be back in a few weeks. Only one of them returned. The others had no relapse at all. And it brings me home that when this book was originally written and released in 39, that they had a very limited experience, but their experience was very good if people took the actions as outlined in the steps. And that's three out of four, that's 75%. I don't know about you, but when I drank, I ended up in a locked ward and I would most likely have been back there if not for the program of alcoholics anonymous. So the family afterwards is about 13 pages. And we have about 21 more minutes. We can freeze through it a little bit. That's another awesome chapter. The family afterwards starts on page 122. Are you going back next week to do a vision for you, or should I do it with... No, I have to go to the other rehab place. I have a new commitment. The family afterward is a beautiful chapter. It kind of helped me, you know, when I got sober, let's see, what happened? Let's see. I went into a 16-hour blackout. I got delivered to my father's front door. I had a 5-year-old daughter at the time. My parents convinced me that it was probably good for me to get some help. I institutionalized myself for 30 days. Okay, that's what I did. While I was away, my parents moved me out of my house and into theirs. into their basement and, um, quit my jobs for me. Thanks. So I had no way to support myself, you know, and this is what I came out to. Um, and so for after many, many years of not living with my family other than my daughter, you know? I was thrown into a family that I had never lived with. I had ever lived with my dad, my stepmom and their kids, you now, and her kids and all the kids there's a bunch of us um so it was um you know the family afterward is such a huge chapter for me because it's you know it talks about a lot of the family dynamics and some of the problems that happen as it as you know when a person gets newly sober um right on the um right the first page again and this was mentioned into wives our women folk have suggested certain attitudes a wife may take with the husband who is recovering perhaps they created the impression that he is to be wrapped in cotton wool and placed on a pedestal successful readjustment means the opposite okay the opposite all members of the family should meet upon the common ground of tolerance understanding and love there it is again look at that um this involves a process of deflation okay um you know it's right in the bottom of the page there's a big huge section and you know It's so funny because when we get sober and we're like you know I can't believe my mother doesn't trust me I can believe my boyfriend doesn't Trust me no I'm just going at the AA meetings well how did you behave before you know for the past 10 years I don't know about you but But, you know, my boyfriend, when I first came in, yeah, he had a lot of questions. I was going to eight meetings a week. He didn't like that very much. You know why? I was known to cheat. Shocker, he didn't trust me. Right? You know, My parents, sometimes they had slight, you know, issues. They weren't really sure, you know, if I was late coming back from a meeting, they'd be like, uh-oh, where is she? You know why? Because I used to disappear for days. So, yeah. They don't trust me when i'd say things like you know to my mom you know well of course i'm gonna call you back don't you trust me she'd go yeah why would she trust me i had like five six years of never calling her back that was my history you know i just didn't call her back um all right so cessation is the of drinking is but the first step away from a highly strained abnormal condition okay So we stopped drinking, and then we are highly strained, abnormal condition. Fabulous. A doctor said to us, years of living with an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife or child neurotic. The entire family is, to some extent, ill. Let families realize as they start their journey that all will not be fair weather. Each in his turn may be foot sore and may straggle. There will be alluring shortcuts and bypass down which they may wander and lose their way. You know, when I got sober, it was a very strange dynamic. I had not, I had been, you know, I mean, you know, my parents changed the locks and did not give me a key to get in. You know? I wasn't allowed to come into the house unless I rang the bell. You know. Everybody else had a key. Sometimes they would bring my daughter in the house and then close the door. And I was not allowed in the house. That's just the way it was. Okay? Because I didn't treat them well. I stole all their liquor every time I was there. You know what I mean? I didn' I didn'' I drank it. You know?. So, yeah, they didn't want me in the house a lot. So, you know, when things changed and they moved me into their house, it was a little tense, you know? Yeah, they were suspicious. Yeah,they were neurotic. Yeah, of course they were, you know? I had been living on a different planet for years, you know? They didn't know what to expect when I got in there. They didn' t know if I was violent. They had no idea, you know? So they didn' know what to expect um fortunately my violence was mostly just thoughts um there's i'm gonna bounce through this a little bit on page 124 there's a paragraph that i absolutely love um this painful past the painful past okay we talk about our past and you know so many times we want to just like get sober and like start a new life and the other one didn't exist you know but it says in here the painful past may be of infinite value to other families still struggling with their problems we think each family which has been relieved owes something to those who have not and when the occasion requires each member of it should be only too willing to bring former mistakes no matter how grievous out of their hiding places okay that's why i gave my mother permission to talk about my alcoholism okay um and my stepmother and my sisters and all of them they can all do it's not a problem i have no issue with that showing others who suffer how we were given help is the very thing which makes life seem so worthwhile to us now cling to the thought that in god's hands the dark past is the greatest possession you have the key to life and happiness for others with it you can avert death and misery for them and here we go again with the discretion the next paragraph it is possible to dig dig up past misdeeds so they become a blight a veritable plague okay um you know it talks about revealing you know details about an affair and it says in here you know we think that unless some good and useful purpose is to be served past occurrences should not be discussed you know we discuss them as you know we have to have discretion when we're discussing these things i don't go and tell all my employers you know that i'm an ex-drunk and you should have seen me dancing on the bar at the place and And, you know, they don't need to know this kind of stuff. There's no use. You know, if I see somebody at work who's suffering with alcoholism, yes, I'm going to approach them privately. Absolutely. You know. We families of Alcoholics Anonymous keep few skeletons in the closet. Everyone knows about the other's alcoholic troubles. This is a condition which in ordinary life would produce untold grief. There might be scandalous gossip, laughter at the expense of other people, and a tendency to take advantage of intimate information. Among us, these are rare occurrences. I have to ask myself, is that a rare occurrence in my group? And if it's not, if it'S not rare, it needs to be addressed. We do talk about each other a great deal, but we almost invariably temper such talk by a spirit of love and tolerance. Another principle we observe carefully is that we do not relate intimate experiences of another person unless we are sure he would approve. A man may criticize or laugh at himself, and it will affect others favorably, but criticism or ridicule coming from another often produces the contrary effect. Members of a family should watch such matters carefully, for one careless, inconsiderate remark has been known to raise the very devil. We alcoholics are sensitive people. It takes some of us a long time to outgrow that serious handicap. Okay, now I love to watch. and be like, but I'm really sensitive. You know, I used to say that all the time. But I'm just so sensitive, you know, when I'm brought to tears and I'm like, But I am so sensitive. And I just want people to treat me a little nicer. But here's the funny thing. It says right here that that sensitivity is a serious handicap. Earlier in the book it actually says the same exact thing. So we need to be willing to grow towards maybe not being so darn sensitive, not taking everything so personally because it's not all about us all the time page 126 this is for a newcomer we think it dangerous if he rushes headlong at his economic problem I love it when people come in and they say I just have to get my finances in order and then I can work the staffs ok, if you're unemployed you have plenty of time to work the steps why don't we try that first OK, because I mean, seriously, any job you're going to get in an untreated alcoholic state of mind is not going to last. You know, I mean think about it. You know you're just taking alcohol out of an alcoholic and we're like and we'RE GOING TO GO AND GET A JOB? What? You know the family will be affected also pleasantly at first as they feel money troubles are about to be solved then not so pleasantly as they find themselves neglected, right? Dad may be tired at night and preoccupied by day. He may take a small interest in the children and may show irritation when reproved for his delinquencies. If not irritable, he may seem dull and boring, not gay and affectionate as the family would like him to be. Mother may complain of inattention. They are all disappointed and often let him feel it. Beginning with such complaints, a barrier arises. He is straining every nerve to make up for lost time. He is striving to recover fortune and reputation and feels he is doing very well. very well you know this is this is like one of those family dynamics that needs to be kind of avoided you know it's um i gotta tell you my first job was like i don't know i think i got paid six bucks an hour or something i mean i was not it was not something that i could actually support myself on it was just so that i actually had somewhere to go and you know like get kind of a routine back i wasn't gainfully employed until i was a little over a year sober it just wasn't possible. I mean, I had to take a nap at two o'clock every day. You know, I was just, I was a mess. I was a high bottom drunk, right? My stepmother, I swear to God, I'd walk upstairs and I'd be like, my mouth would be all contorted. And she'd be Like, she'd look at me, she go, take a map. I'd Be like, I don't need a map and she'd Be Like, you need a nap. Go take a lap. Go lay down. I'll be like fun. And I'd go and I laid down and I take I was like a five-year-old it was really that considering I had a five year old at the time you know she was more mature than I was when I got in early sobriety it's just the truth you know um I'm not surprised when people who are early in sobriery are like you know like little children I really am not surprised because that's how exactly how I was um you know and they talk about the whole money thing and you know feeling neglected and all that kind of stuff my daughter felt neglected to a point and it was we did tell her that you know i was sick i told her i was very sick and i needed to go to the meeting so that i could get my medicine she was five years old that was how we explained it she understands now what it is that i do she understands it completely she's sat in a million meetings and she's like oh my god she said to me one time she's like i would never steal money from you because then i'd have to make amends and i just started laughing she was about 14 years old and i was like oh honey that's only if you're drunk and she's like well i'm not gonna be one of those i said okay you know and if you are that's cool too you know whatever but it's you know she actually understands what the program is all about i don't hide it from her you know it's this is again it's not a selfish program um you know if they sense these things you know that that it's if the family understands if you explain it to them what it is that needs to be done this is what I need to do in order to stay sober so I can live and sometimes I'll have to talk to parents about this too because the parents really want the leaves raked in the lawn because that's the most important thing instead of the newcomer going to a meeting or doing her obligations or going through the book and I understand that But we have to look at priorities here. And if the families actually understand what the program involves and what it entails, there are 12 steps and it's a lot of work. It's not just somebody going and hanging out and having a cup of coffee in a meeting. They will not take so seriously as periods of crankiness, depression or apathy which will disappear when there is tolerance, love and spiritual understanding. you know it's it doesn't have to be torture for the family it really doesn't um you know there's they talk about this um you know when a newcomer goes and like gets really enthusiastic about the program and like is 24-7 like you know going on speaking commitments and meetings and this that and the other and helping everybody and this you know all this other stuff you know that happens in early sobriety it's kind of normal you know and if the family kind of like lets him do it for a little bit they'll he'll see eventually oh i'm completely out of balance you know we don't know what balance is when we get here why when we take a drink out of us do we think that we're going to all of a sudden be balanced you know it makes no sense um of course what i did was i picked up on aa like i did drinking i drank every day so there you go it's still completely out of whack and totally not balanced you know it was really hard to figure out you know time to do anything else other than go to meetings and do what i was doing so but i finally did realize very quickly you know um the family cooperates dad will soon see that he is suffering from a distortion of values he will perceive that his spiritual growth is lopsided 129 oh sorry page 129 for that an average man like himself a spiritual life which does not include his family obligations may not be so perfect after all if the family will appreciate the dad's current behaviors but a phase of his development all will be well in the midst of an understanding and sympathetic family these vagaries of dad's spiritual infancy will quickly disappear again when we first go through the steps for the first time we are not like spiritual giants And a lot of times we think that I've had a spiritual awakening and I know what everybody's doing wrong now. I get it. You know, we like to preach from the pulpit, right? And that's just arrogance. It's a character defect that I picked up in sobriety. It's spiritual arrogance. For me to think that my family doesn't have any idea how to live life is really cocky. That's just cocky, you know. They did it pretty successfully. Unlike I did. you know unlike me so um you know every once in a while i have to be reminded that i am a spiritual infant um on page 130 here's more about this those of us who have spent much time in the world of spiritual make-believe have eventually seen the childishness of it this dream world has been replaced by a great sense of purpose accompanied by a growing consciousness of the power of god in our lives we have come to believe he would like to keep like us to keep our heads in the clouds with him but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth that is where our fellow travelers are and that is Where Our Work Must Be Done these are the realities for us we have found nothing incompatible between a powerful spiritual experience and a life of sane and happy usefulness okay um you know my daughter does not like it when I talk about God so guess what I don't talk about god with her period she finds it offensive that's fine you know and it's and i don't think that she needs to change you know she's she's got her belief she's Got Her Own Higher Power and I like to keep it that way that's cool you know She Does Not Have To Believe What I Believe You Know She Knows What I Believe And She Respects What I Believe I Respect what she believes or doesn't whatever um on the bottom of page 132 i think it's pretty important in the middle actually it says we've been speaking to you serious sometimes tragic things we've dealing with alcohol and its worst aspect but we are not a glum lot if newcomers could see no joy or fun in their experience they wouldn't want it we absolutely insist on enjoying life We try not to indulge in cynicism over the state of the nations, nor do we carry the world's troubles on our shoulders. When we see a man sinking into the mire that is alcoholism, we first give him first aid and place what we have at his disposal. For his sake, we do recount and almost relive the horrors of our past. But those of us who have tried to shoulder the entire burden and trouble of others, we find we are soon overcome by them. so we think cheerfulness and laughter make for usefulness outsiders are sometimes shocked when we burst into laughter burst into merriment over a seemingly tragic experience out of the past but why shouldn't we laugh we have recovered and we have been given the power to help others that's huge everybody knows those in bad health and who though everybody knows that those in bad health do not laugh much so let each family play together or separately as much as their circumstances warrant whenever i have a an alcoholic you know woman who's having troubles in their in their marriage or you know they're they're not having any fun you know i point them to this you know um where are you playing if you're not playing in your family you know maybe you need to you know this is one of those things that we've been given this gift and it's up to us to use it you know we can't just sit around waiting for everybody else to treat us nice um we are sure god wants us to be happy joyous and free we cannot subscribe to the belief that this life is a veil of tears though it was just once what though it once was just that for many of us but it is clear that we have made our own misery god didn't do it avoid then the deliberate manufacturer of misery but if trouble comes cheerfully capitalize on it as an opportunity to demonstrate his omnipotence. And here we go again about the health. A body badly burned by alcohol does not often recover overnight, nor do twisted thinking and depression vanish in a twinkling. We are convinced that a spiritual mode of living is most powerful health restorative. We who have recovered from serious drinking are miracles of mental health, but we have seen remarkable transformations in our bodies. Hardly one of our crowd now shows any mark of dissipation. But this does not mean that we disregard human health measures. God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds. Do not hesitate to take your health problems to such persons. I have a very dear friend from high school whose father is an alcoholic, and he got sober, and he had a heart attack. And she was so angry with him and angry at AA and didn't think that it worked. until we sat down and we had a conversation. And it was interesting, she said that her biggest problem with AA was the religious aspect, and we've talked about that for a while, how it's not religious. But what her father had actually done was as he was having a heart attack, he called his daughter, said, I'm having a hard attack, and she said, oh my God, are you going to the hospital? And he said, no, me and my girlfriend are going to pray first. what that makes no sense you know i mean if you're if youre having like a serious freaking health issue hit 9-1-1 then pray well you know good god you know they were going to wait to call the doctor so they could pray you know that's not what our program teaches us you know it's it's silly i mean we got to use some common sense here um most of them give freely of themselves and that their fellows may enjoy sound minds and bodies. Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist. Their services are often indispensable in treating a newcomer and in following his case afterward. You know, it's huge. That's huge, and here's a funny little thing. I love this. I'm just going to finish off with the last couple paragraphs. When a family goes on a spiritual basis or not, the alcoholic member has to if he would recover. The others must be convinced of his new status beyond the shadow of a doubt, seeing as believing in most families who have lived with a drinker. My mother didn't believe I was sober until I was over for over two and a half years. She had no reason to believe it. So, you know, no big deal. Here is a case in point. One of our friends is a heavy smoker and coffee drinker There was no doubt he overindulged. seeing this and meaning to be helpful his wife commenced to admonish him about it he admitted he was overdoing these things but frankly said that he was not ready to stop his wife is one of those persons who really feels there is something rather sinful about these commodities so she nagged and her intolerance finally threw him into a fit of anger he got drunk okay now he didn't drink because of his wife he drank because of His anger and his unaddressed resentment okay so you know there's of course our friend was wrong dead wrong he had to painfully admit this and mend his spiritual fences though he's now a most effective member of alcoholics anonymous he still smokes and drinks coffee but neither his wife nor anyone else stands in judgment she sees she was wrong and wrong to make a burning issue of such a matter when his more serious ailments were being rapidly cured we have three little mottos which are apropos here they are first things first live and let live easy does it now those slogans when they're taken out of context don't make a whole lot of sense when you take them and you put them into the context of this entire chapter they make a lot of cents you know um that was one of the things that i didn't get i used to see the slogans on at all the meetings that i i didn'T really understand i DIDN'T understand what first things FIRST was i thought live and LET LIVE meant um Pretend it didn't happen and bury it. I really did. I thought that turn it over was just, you know, pretend it didn' t happen. I didn' d understand any of these slogans. When I actually read this, when it said easy does it, I was like, oh. So anyway, I'm getting the knife chopped across the neck. So now it's on the recording thing, so that' s cool. But I thank you guys for letting me come for the last three weeks. Thank you. Thank you.