Trouble Making a Ninth Step Amend Means You’ve Got a Seventh Step Problem — You Just Don’t Want to Change — Mike S. and David M.

Welcome to Sober Sunrise, a podcast bringing you AA speaker meetings with stories of experience, strength, and hope from around the world. We bring you several new speakers weekly, so be sure to subscribe. We hope to always remain an ad-free podcast, so if you'd like to help us remain self-supporting, please visit our website at sober-sunrise.com. Whether you join us in the morning or at night, there's nothing better than a sober sunrise. We hope that you enjoy today's speaker. Okay, my name is, I think, Mike Shane. I'm still an alcoholic. Okay, now we're coming into 8 and 9, 10 and 11 and 12. These are my favorite steps, and I'll tell you why. It's where I found God in the ninth step. I think I told you that I came in from a sober sunrise, and I'm still an alcoholic. I'm still an alcoholic. I'm still in here not believing in God. Looking back on it, God is in the details. And quite honestly, I had so many chances to see God working in my life, all the way through my drinking life, all the way up, getting sober, all the way through. But I still doubted that there was this God. And I remember in 8, my sponsor sent me home to review my inventory to find out what harm I had caused, all right? And I'm a believer in 6 and 7 and 8 and 9 that the work is actually in the, it's, of 6 and 7, the real work comes in 6. In 8 and 9, the real work comes in the eighth step. And I got done with this inventory, and I take it to my sponsor. I have a fifth step that I've gone through 6 and 7. Now I put the seal on if I really and truly want to change. If I'm having a problem making an amend, I have a seventh step problem. It's because I do not want to change. If I'm holding on to something, and I want to keep it up, I don't want to make amends for that, do I? If I really and truly do not want to be this kind of man that I described earlier, I don't want to be this kind of man that I described earlier. I don't want to be this kind of man that I described earlier. I don't want to be this kind of man that I described earlier on the left side of the page, and I really and truly want to move over here to the right side of the page and be this kind of man over here, I have no problem making an amend. So my first time through the work, Frank had me write out my amends list. Now, he also went through with it with me on how to make an amend, which is, at that point in time, I would call them, I would tell them that I'm an Alcoholics Anonymous, which I do not do anymore. I'm going to tell you about that later. I do not use that today, because alcohol is, the harms I caused today, alcohol plays no part in it. And it's a cop-out, as far as I'm concerned, to say, I'm an Alcoholics Anonymous, and I want to make amends to you. Now, okay? So, he said, here's how you make an amend. You write out the harm after you found it on the three-by-three line. You write out the harm after you found it on the three-by-three line. And he said, the reason he writes them out is because when you make the amend, he says, I want you to read off the card. I said, why do you want me to do that? He said, because your ego is going to want to start making excuses for your behavior. So, in the middle of the amend, all of a sudden, I'm going, well, I lied to you, but I was really scared, and you know, that kind of thing. He said, that's no good. So, he said, what you do is, you have a card, and he said, you're going to take this card into the amend with you, face-to-face is the way you make amends, unless it's absolutely impossible. Now, I heard the biggest crock of crap I've ever heard in Alcoholics Anonymous not too long ago. Now, you may have all heard this. Maybe I'm slow. Somebody said that they would make amends except when to do so would injure them or others, and they were the others. I mean, I had never heard that. The big book says that we must be hard on ourselves, right? Because we need ego deflation at depth to overcome the disease of alcoholism. To a degree that David was reading in the previous steps, he said, well, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. About deflating the ego at a depth that's unheard of to most of the world, in order to overcome this disease. So he had me write out the harm I found, all right? And by the time I got out of my fifth step, I knew what the harms were. There was no kidding around about it. We picked all that out in the fifth step. He said, then I want you to write a sentence underneath that that says, is there anything I have left out? So he said, said, you will make an appointment. You will go in and you will tell them why you're there. And then he said, you're going to read to them what you did to them. And then you're going to say, is there anything I have left out and I am going to keep my mouth shut. And they can say whatever they want to say. And I listened to it. When they're done, he said, what you're going to do is say, is there anything else? And if they say no, you're going to say, what can I do to set this right? Now, a lot of people would leave you off the hook. They'd say, oh, I'm just glad you showed up, you know? Okay. He said, no, you're going to know what you're going to do to make it right. And if they don't tell you what to do, you're going to tell them what you're going to do. Now, going into amends, I go into amends for two reasons. One, I'm going to tell them what I'm going to do. Two, I'm going to tell them what I'm going to do. One, I don't want to be this man anymore. But the second reason that I didn't even know about until I had completed amends was that I go into amends with an unprotected heart. I found out I do not have to protect myself. I have lived my entire life trying to protect me. And if I'm in the middle of an amend, God has my back. Now, either this deal really and truly works or it doesn't. Okay? So, I had all these amends in Denver. And as you all know, I came from San Francisco to Denver. And we're going through and I had all these warrants up for me. And what the warrants were for was SALTO police officer pimping, pandering, bootlegging, and something else. I can't even remember. He said, you're going to have to make amends for that. You're going to have to turn yourself in. But he said, we don't lead with a chin. He says, let's get an attorney in San Francisco to be there to set bail if you can get it and the whole thing. And part of my amends story is this. I ran these strip clubs in the Tenderloin District of San Francisco and North Beach. And the people that owned these was the mob. That's who owned them. And I stole from them. I would just take 50, 100, 200 bucks a night out of the town. And I would take 50, 100, 200 bucks a night out of the town. And I would just take 50, 100, 200 bucks a night out of the town. And I would take 50, 100, 200 bucks a night out of the town. And so I told Frank about all this. And he goes, you owe them an amend. I said, no, I don't. I said, these people rip anybody off. He said, it has nothing to do with them. He said, it has to do with you. I said, Frank, if I go and make amends to these people, I'll never come back. He said, yes, you will. He sure it doesn't he said you cannot stay sober looking over your shoulder you can't do it you want to get really clean get clean this isn't about just getting clean from alcohol and drugs this is about getting clean in life to where i can look every single human being that i know in the eye that i don't walk across the street to avoid a soul there isn't a town there isn't any place i can't go today i'm not afraid to meet anybody right that's what this program will offer me so what happens is i made all these amends one of the amends that i made was for because i've been sober about 11 months and my wife had divorced me and i was paying child support but i i made amends to her and i was part of the amends for for paying her late and and when frank sponsored me there was a couple of conditions he had for sponsoring not just working the twelve steps and be becoming a home group member but he said if you have a kid you're going to pay your child support and if you have a kid you are going to see your kid on time every single chance you have and you will get a job those were his three other conditions and so i made amends to my ex-wife and part of the amend was to uh... i'm sorry for paying you child support but i'm sorry for paying you child support report late house paid but you know i was more important than her obviously so what i did was i would pay on the fifteenth instead of the first or whatever and she looked at me and i'll never forget this this was so this will show you how sick i was because this was i opened she looked at me and she said mike i don't like you and she said you don't like me so why don't you just pay your child support child support on the first and we never have to talk to each other again and all of a sudden it clicked do what you say you're going to do very simple concept do what you say you're going to do Frank's definition of honesty is do what you say you're going to do and say what you do that's his definition of honesty it's also mine the reason for that is I don't live my life behind no curtains no more right I don't have no agendas going on back here my best friends in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous you want to know why they're my best friends they don't have an agenda with me and I have none with them none whatsoever I don't want nothing from them they don't want nothing from me so Frank was the kind of guy and Don was saying the same thing and a couple other people were saying the same thing that if this thing really and truly works it's gonna work in the middle of making amends and it's in the middle of amends I'm gonna test this God thing and I go into an amend with an unprotected heart so what I ended up doing was I went into San Francisco and I had a whole bunch of amends to make and I made the easiest ones first and then I was scared to death and I wasn't going to make amends to the people who don't the nightclubs I figured I'd turn myself into the San Francisco Police Department they're gonna arrest me so I ain't gotta worry about making amends does that make sense so I contacted this attorney that Frank had gotten me lined up with I told them that I'm coming in to do it and I walked into the precinct station down by the Tenderloin District it was just sort of like what's in TV a big old desk with death sergeants standing there I was petrified folks I'm not gonna sit here and try to tell you that I had got on my shoulder and I'm gonna walk in there and just present myself like a man I really am I was just a total coward I walked in and he looked up at me and he said what do you want and I said my name's Mike Shane I'm an Alcoholics Anonymous and I need to make amends I have he said what I said my name's Mike Shane I'm an Alcoholics Anonymous and I'm here to make amends because I got some warrants out for me he goes oh no not another one of you guys and I said yeah and they took me upstairs and they took me up and the detectives came in and they left for an hour and they came back how did what's your social and this that the other thing and they came back like three and a half hours later and I'm prepared to go to jail I really am because I knew I couldn't live that way I mean from the time I left San Francisco every time I saw a cop on one yes right and so finally this cop walks in and he goes yeah we got that you're arrested for all this it was all dropped to disturbing the peace and you're on a year's probation what are you doing here i had never done anything with those and i left the police department and i was so high and so relieved i decided that what i was going to do was call the big boss of the guys that owned the the five clubs and i was going to call him at his office and he probably wouldn't be there and i could tell frank i tried it was like 2 30 in the afternoon i make i had the number i called he answers the phone who's this this is tell him this is mikey we haven't seen you in a long time come on over say hi you now i don't know if you've been up to north beach in san francisco i'm sure he has but yes right right next to the nessies there's a strip club on the right hand side of the alley and you walk up the big long stairs into this back alley and right up back up there's their office and so i go over there and i walk up and all i can think of is the big boss of the guys so all i can think of is what frank kept telling me i gotta make this amend i gotta make this amend i gotta make this amend it i can't be looking over my shoulder and and i was really petrified and i walk in and it was just like i was sopranos and they go like this hi it's good to see you how you doing you know because they're checking right and so uh finally i get in this guy's name's gino and he's everything that you can imagine little short guy with a silk suit and a pinky ring and he tells me what are you doing so i'm talking to him and he said you look good you look a lot better than you used to and i had a short haircut and the whole thing and he says what are you doing and i said oh gino and i said jesus christ i didn't want to tell you this but i'm here to make amends i stole all this money he looked at me he says how much did you steal well now i knew i had made a mistake because see i thought they knew but they didn't know right right right right and i said gino i don't know i mean it's 50 here 100 here 200 you know i i really don't know he said what would you say 15 grand 20 grand yeah something like that i said gino i promise you i'll pay you back you know i'm driving a cab now but i'll pay you back we'll set up we'll set up we'll set up some payment plans actually prince helped me a lot with that because he made amends when he was in prison and he had paid back at like 50 cents a month and i said well you know 19 he paid like 45 cents a month to some of his creditors and he looked at me and he said mike isg people don't do this to us isg and i said what steal money he said no come back and tell us and i told him and we sat and talked and i don't want to be flipping about it we sat and talked for a period of time and he said look he said we're going to call it even he said but if i see you drunk back here again i want every penny anderling Here's what I learned in that trip to San Francisco as I faced my worst fears to do the right thing. Either God has my back or he doesn't. I don't have to protect myself anymore. Does it mean that I don't try? Of course not. Does it mean that I don't get scared? Of course I do. But I have to be able to go out in the world knowing that God has my back. You know, the big book makes some very serious promises. These promises are for real. And when we get into 1011, I'm going to tell you some things I've done in the 10th step and the 11th step that I've seen the real power of this program. And what ends up happening is I change. My heart gets changed. I don't change because I'm so good at this. I change because I'm seeking God. I came back from San Francisco just higher than a kite because finally I didn't have to hide from the world. I didn't have to hide from the world. I didn't have to hide from nothing anymore. I was such a paranoid drunk. I don't know if you guys have ever gotten really paranoid. Oh, that's right. There's a bunch of junkies in here, too. I'm serious. When I called AA, I timed my phone call to less than three minutes because I was afraid they'd trace my call. You know, I was so paranoid. But what the amends process is all about is about not wanting to be that kind of man anymore and not wanting to be that kind of man anymore. Do I really trust this process? You know? And I came back and I told Frank what had happened and he sat in his big desk and he was grinning from ear to ear and he said, I told you so. But I learned a valuable lesson. I don't avoid amends anymore. I don't like to make them. I think it's the most humbling thing we do in Alcoholics Anonymous, but it's also the most... It gives you a sense of reality of what you do in the world. I remember going back to somebody, making an amend, and when I got to the point... There was a girl I used to date. And when I got to the point and I said, this is what I've seen. Is there anything else that I could... You know, is there anything I've left out? She went on for an hour about stuff that I had never even thought of. It's how it affected her. And I sat there and listened and I got a life lesson. We don't really know all the time. How we affect other people. We have no way of knowing that. We're sometimes so self-centered. We think we know we've hurt them. You know, the big book says that we're sensitive. And it takes us a long time to outgrow that serious handicap. I think elkies are sensitive only when it comes to themselves. I really don't think elkies are very sensitive when it comes to the people around them. Because we can waylay people with a look. Right? I remember... I remember making amends to my daughter after she got a little bit older. And we did what the book said. We sat down and frankly analyzed the past. And I was able to say, here's what I did wrong here. And here's what I did wrong here. And here's what I should have done here. And here's what I should have done there. And my daughter and I are like... We're like this today. And that's a gift from God. A total gift from God. So that's what I have on 8 and 9. That's David Alcoholic. So pretty much what Mike does is the same thing that I do. Amazing. We all get it from the same. I think that part of the basic format of going through an amends that I would add because it says it in the book is it does talk about telling them you're sorry. And I've heard some people say, oh, so many times it means that you're not supposed to tell them you're sorry because they've heard it a million times when you were drunk. This sorry here where I'm at at step 9 is not the same one that I'm at when I'm drunk. It's not the only thing I say. But it needs to be mentioned. I think it's mentioned in two or three different types of the amends that the book presents that we bring this... I'm sorry. We're in a completely different place. The other one, and it comes... The other instruction I was given, it's the very last instruction I was told to follow through with on every amends. It comes from the instruction in the letter that the guy wrote to his wife about alimony and that is asking for forgiveness. And that's really not about me. That's really about giving them an opportunity to get free just as asking them to tell me if there's anything I left out, how that made them feel, what I can do to make that right. Do you forgive me? Because the truth is that this amends process is moving to me and in my experience to another part of this cycle of forgiveness where these people are forgiving me. Whereas I forgive them in my fourth step, I see that God forgave me in my fifth step. Now I'm giving these people an opportunity to forgive me. If I'm making the amends, I'm free. If I'm standing in front of you and I'm going through the motions, I'm free. Now the instruction about transitioning from eight to nine, it talks about cleaning off our side of the street is not an end in itself. If all I'm doing when I'm making amends is worrying about cleaning off my side of the street, I'm coming to you from a selfish position. What it says is that our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and our fellows. That means when I'm in front of you, be willing to be put in an opportunity where I can be helpful. And where I grew up, my parent, I told you, I moved up to the mountains out of Fresno, up in the high country. And in that, where I live, there's probably five or six, seven Indian reservations that are within a 10 mile radius of where we lived. And I immediately gravitated to the hanging out on the Indian reservations. It's a whole different world down there. And I dug it. Nobody's putting on a face down there. And I didn't have to put on a face down there. I came from hanging around a different crowd than that. And when I got down there, it was just a different thing. And it was wild and it was crazy. And there's illegal activity going on down there. I was a part of. And it was much, very similar to what Mike was talking about and having to go make amends. But one of the things about that is that, you know, there's another part of the book that talks about we don't shun our friends because we don't drink anymore. And if I come back to that community and shun those guys down on the reservation because I was now sober, they literally would have kicked my ass because they would have perceived that as I thought I was better than them because I'm not drinking anymore. And I didn't shun them. But right off the bat, I got right in there with them. Hanging out just not, I wasn't drinking. And they respected me not drinking and I respected them still drinking. Whatever, you know. But there came a time for an amends and my sponsor says, you're going to have to go make that amends. And that's a whole different ballgame. I mean, you fight with each other just for fun. I mean, they just seem to shank you as anything else, you know. Especially on the wrong side of things. So I went down and I, this one guy I had to make amends to, we were selling ragweed and I stole a bunch from him. And it was bad stuff. It'd just give you a headache and a cough. But we were selling it to the yuppies down in Fresno for 40 and 8. It's all profit. But I stole a bunch. And so, and I went back and made amends to him and it was all fine. It was good. Nothing happened. And I went back to my sponsor and I told him, I said, hey man, I said, I went down there and I made amends and he goes, they didn't kill you? No, they didn't kill me. Nothing happened. He says, man, I'm going to go make some of those amends. I got some still hanging out that are just like that. Wow, I'm the guinea pig here, you know. But, I started to plug into a Native American treatment facility because they had, two meetings a week down in Fresno. And I started seeing these guys filter in and out of the treatment facility. And if I wasn't at least their first contact in AA, I was certainly somebody that, in some cases, I sponsored some of these guys. And they're a very tight community. They're not going to just ask somebody for help. It's just not even in their culture to ask somebody for help, you know. And to be a source for that, on a regular basis, of getting them plugged into AA, was awesome. I, me and a buddy took off one time for Santa Rosa. I was 15, 16. So I was 16, he was 15. And he ends up getting arrested because he's driving my car with no license because I'm too drunk and too high to drive it myself. And when he gets arrested, he gets to the juvenile hall and he gets sent home. Sent home. His dad, actually, his dad came picking him up four hours away from Fresno. And I came to the hotel room because the cops didn't take me. They just dropped me off at the hotel room that I was staying in. My car got impounded. And so in this drunken stupor, I decided that I'm going to take a little jaunt through memory lane of where we used to live when I was 10 to 13, 14 years old. And I go back to this old house that my parents built that we lived in. I just wanted to see it. And I'm drunk. I'm 16. I can't imagine. I look at 16-year-olds now and I think about, man, they just look so innocent. I can't imagine I was doing what I was doing sometimes when I look back. But anyway, this older lady came out. She goes, what are you doing? Oh, just looking at the house my dad built. We used to live here. He goes, oh, those are your parents. Yeah. She goes, you want to come in? I'm drunk, stinky, and slut. I go, okay. You want to see your room? Okay. And she carved me off in my old room. She had a daybed out there and she let me sleep in the bed. So I thought about that. And it obviously came around in amends and how just invasive that was and how awkward that was. And I thought, I don't know. I don't know who that must have been and putting that woman in that position. So I come back around. This is nine years later, right? So I go up to Santa Rosa. I have a bunch of Santa Rosa, Sebastopol I got to take care of. And that's just one of them. And I drive up and I get out. And this lady comes out who's considerably younger, somebody else. And she goes, can I help you? And I said, oh, there used to be an older couple that lived here and I was just wondering if they still lived here or went around. And she goes, oh, no, that was my husband's mother. We got the house from them. They passed away or something. And I said, oh, all right. Well, I'll just be on my way. And she goes, well, what are you here for? And I told her the story. And she goes, oh, big breath of air she takes in. I go, does that mean something to you? All right. She goes, my husband's mother was 30-year Al-Anon. When I came walking in that door at 16, she knew exactly what to do. That's wild. She said, my husband right now is in a treat facility in Sonoma. And he's going to be out in about 15 days. Would you be willing to at least talk to him? And tell him to get plugged in and to meet with Alcoholics Anonymous. Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? Another one I just want to share with you, and it has to do with AA. When I went through the first steps the first time, before that, I was sitting in these meetings and these people in the meetings kept patting me on the, oh, Dave, it's going to be okay. You just go through your steps. And finally, I did. And I had a spiritual awakening. I was shot out of a camera. I was shot out of a cannon. And I was on fire. And I came back and shared it. And then they were throwing cold water on it. And I quickly realized that they hadn't actually done it themselves. And I copped an immediate resentment. I mean, huge resentment. And so it did two things. One, it drove me further into the literature, not only this literature, but the history that you guys have been raffling off. I wanted to know everything. I wanted to know what else they were lying to me about. And I was getting a general service and I had a service sponsor that was a delegate. And he got me into the service manual. I mean, he dialed me in. I was a walking war machine. About two years sober going to A&E's and I was dropping bombs left and right. And I was trying, trying to get rid of that resentment on them, abusing them, literally. And that is no way to carry the message of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I will tell you to this day, 18 years later, that reputation still follows me. Even though I haven't done that in 15 years, it still follows me. It affects my home group. Okay? But I did come around and make amends to those groups for behaving that way. I mean, I would just single you. I would just call you out. And I would just call you out. I just, I mean, not tactful. I mean, just bear down on you. Condemn the entire group. It's like a chainsaw going through a meeting. Okay? And I think that most of those groups at some point over the years have come back around and said, will you do our big book study? And a lot of that ended up getting people coming to our group doing what we do. And then, they go back into that group and they do some missionary work in there and they lead their own. And they're able to lead their own big book studies. Right? My real purpose in making amends is to fit myself in maximum service to God and my fellows. Right? The high school that I nearly got kicked out of, I came back around and made amends to. And I made a general letter of amends to the school. And then I made, direct amends to individual teachers that I made direct harms to. And one of the teachers I made, I made, I had harms to, he was the director of the, the junior, senior prom. I was never eligible to go to any of that stuff after my freshman year. But they were going to, I was, a girl that I really dug, my senior year, asked me to go and I told her I couldn't go. And she pretty much knew that. And she was going to try and pull some strings and see if I could go. And so I thought I was going to be able to go. It came down, I was going to be able to go. So this one teacher decided that at the last second, the director says, no, he absolutely cannot come. Broke my heart. Right? Now they're going to pay. Okay? So I threw a four kegger. Right? The, he loses something like $5,000 on the, on the prom because nobody goes. Everybody, everybody is in their prom dresses and tuxes at my four kegger. They show up to get pictures and that's about it. Right? And they're off and they go to the kegger. So I come back around and I got to, you know, make amends for that. And the first thing that was interesting to me he said, he says, I didn't even know you guys were doing that or you were doing that. And I had a bunch of, there was a core of us that were all like that. And that was kind of shocking, kind of scary that your teachers don't even recognize that. But the second thing was, is that, I said, what can I do to make it right? And he said, well, I teach driver's ed and I also teach health. He said, when I get to drunk driving and driver's ed, you're going to come over here and tell your story. And when I get to alcoholism and drug addiction and, and health class, you're going to come over here and tell the kids your story. He said, I said, how long do I got to do that? He said, well, how long were you drunk at my school? Good one. So, so I'm doing this and it's all very, administration's a little uneasy, but they're going to let it happen. And so I, I start doing it and a teacher comes up to me I didn't know and he says, hey, I heard you played soccer here. And I said, yeah, I did when I was eligible. And, uh, he says, what do you think about coaching? I just laughed at his face. I said, look, it's one thing to come here and do this little public service thing I'm doing. It's a whole nother ball game to entrust kids in my care. You can run that by the dean if you want to. They're probably going to laugh in your face. He said, well, I don't know. Why don't we just look? Why don't we, why don't we see? I said, I said, have at it. And, uh, he called me back that night and he says, you want to coach? I said, well, what did they tell you? He said, well, it wasn't without a fight. But do you want to coach? I said, sure, I'll coach. Um, now I've got to tell you that as a student, I was in all the college prep stuff and, and I did it all on Jack Daniel's mushrooms and, and weed. And I came out with a B average, okay? They couldn't kick me out for lack of credits or anything like that. That was the only thing that was my saving grace. Um, but they just hated us. They had this thing that I was a bad influence on the other students. I wasn't the peer pressure, I was the peer pressure-er, right? The ringleader. And so, so I get about half, halfway into the season and, um, we're having a good season. We're undefeated. And, uh, we're kind of gathering around trying to plan something for the holidays. And I'm trying to stay out of it. And, um, one of the, uh, the parents go, what do you think about what we should do for Christmas, uh, get together or whatever? I said, oh, I don't know. I know whatever you guys want to do. It's not really a big thing to me. He says, and she just flat out said, hold on here because you have no idea. You are a better influence on our kids than half the teachers in their school. Right out of her mouth. I don't, I don't cry it very much, but that almost got me there. I have a bunch of stories. I could go on all night with immense stories, but that's all I have. You know, I was, I was, uh, thinking about, you know, when, when I went and made those immense, Big Book puts it this way, the spiritual life is not a theory. It has to be lived. And am I willing to live my life based on the principles that I've learned in Alcoholics Anonymous? One of the things that I've come to find out is that I don't have to live my life based on how I feel anymore. I can live my life based on the principles. I can live my life based on the principles. I can live my life based on the principles. I can live my life based on the principles that I've chosen to live my life by, which is a whole different deal. I get the power to do that. But there's two other things in amends that I really would like to bring up. One of them is financial. If you have creditors, I'm here to tell you, creditors, this is a secret, they just want the money. They really don't want a pound of flesh. They don't want their cars back. I'm in the real estate business. I do short sales all day long. They don't want your houses back. They don't want your houses back. You know, they just want your money. The Internal Revenue Service. I owe the Internal Revenue Service a bundle. Okay? Because I decided to get honest on my taxes. They'll work with you. And you've got to pay them back. Big Book says we've got to lose our fear of creditors. We can't be scared of them. I don't know about you, but back in the day, see, I did all this before the internet came along. All right? You couldn't find people. You had to go and look them up. You had to go to the phone company and get phone directories and look them up. You didn't just Google their name and Facebook them. I'm big on Facebook now, but you know, you had to do that kind of stuff. And so I track these people down. The other thing I would really like to talk about is the Big Book does say that we go to people and express our ill feeling. Now, we had a lot of people and we had a period of time down at York Street and Monday night and at Happy Way where people were running around and they'd call you up and they'd go, I really want to make an amend to you and you'd go out of your way to meet them and then they'd say, Mike, I owe you an amend. Well, what for? Well, I really hated your guts. You're just a real asshole. Thank you. I'm so happy you shared that. Bob came to me one time and two guys that had made amends to me went and called him. He said, what are you calling me for? He said, we want to make amends to you. Olson said, I already know I'm an asshole. I'm going to tell you that I don't make those amends. If I've caused actual harm, there's a difference between hurt and harm. I can hurt your feelings just by not doing what you want me to do. I don't owe you an amend for that unless I'm intentionally doing it. But if I've caused you harm, then that's a whole different deal. And I've got to look at that when I'm looking up amends. You know, did I hurt you? Did I just not do what you wanted? Or did I actually harm you? You know, and I don't make amends for those things. But here's one thing is you really sincerely want to set the record for you. You want to set the record straight with people. Sincerely. The book uses that term. I have had people in Alcoholics Anonymous come to me and others and make amends to do the amend so that they can go back to their home group and say, I finished all my amends. They did not want to set it right with me whatsoever. They didn't want to set it right with Bob. I've had normie people. I've got a bunch of realtor friends that have done that. I've got a bunch of realtor friends in Colorado. And I don't hide that I'm in this thing. Hell, I tell everybody. They send me their drunk husbands and wives and stuff like that. And I had this really close friend of mine. She's actually the gal who's watching my business this weekend. And she called me and she said her sister-in-law who is nine months sober in AA came and made an amend to her. And she says, she really didn't want to set anything straight with me. She just wanted to make an amend for what I was doing. What was the reason behind that? So people will pick up on the fact if you really and truly want to set this thing right. You know? I mean, you've been around sales people where you know just after the dollar they could care less about your welfare. Well, you don't buy from them. So if you're in there making amends, I think it's a good idea to really... I always sit down before I make an amend and I ask God to give me the sincerity. And I will say, start the amend by saying to people, I sincerely want to set this record straight. I really and truly have done some stuff to you. And it just isn't right and I need to own it. Okay? So that was just a couple other things that I wanted to bring up about amends. Is there any questions? Yeah? How old was your daughter when you made amends to her? And what did that look like? Like, what was that like? I've made... I'll tell you, I've made amends to my daughter a couple of times. The first time, she was five. The last time, the second time that we did that, she was 25. She was an adult. And what it looked like the first time is she was too young to really take a look at it, but she really got the feel that Dad really cared about her and wanted to be there. And then when she was 25, she learned some things that had happened that I was blamed for that I didn't do anything, you know. And it brought us absolutely and totally together. I'm going to tell you something I've learned. With family members, you have two shots. That's it. First time you go and make an amend to a family member like a wife or brother or whatever, they're really glad you're there. They're going, oh, finally, yes. The second time you go, they're going, eh. And after that, they don't want to hear it no more. They want you to change your behavior. You had your hand up back there? Yeah, and it was a question more of a day. And you were saying the I'm sorry amend a little bit deeper into what you're saying. It's really nothing much else deeper that should be said. There's a couple instances, examples in the ninth step that says that we have to say we're sorry. And I don't know there's anything else deeper to go other than it should be a part of the process to say that. But to just leave it as I'm sorry as being enough? No, that's just an apology. Amends is actually taking the action to make it right. But part of the approach, the book is pretty clear on several occasions that saying I'm sorry is a part of this process. I made some amends when I was like six months sober. And I've only picked up one white chip. But I feel like there are some things that I left out with some people. I mean, you said you only get two shots of making amends with someone. I mean, if you've already made one amends to your parents, should you wait a little while to make another one just so you don't leave anything off that one? You only have two shots? I'm saying that the people closest to you only do really have a couple of shots at them. I would, you know, I don't know. I don't everything in AA is a two. I don't know. I don't know. You know, it's like, are you waiting because, you know, you don't want to do it or are you really waiting because you think your timing is going to be better? You know, one of the things that we used to do so much about amends is we'd ask, well, should I make amends? Should I do this and do that? And both Prince and Frank would say exactly the same thing. They'd say, you pray about it, wait one day and then do it if you think it's right. Very good. Then you're guided. I hope that helps. She had her hand up first. Yeah. So making amends to parents, I have a question about that. What do you suggest? Like, how far back into childhood does one go when they look at behaviors? Where's the line between what we're responsible for as children and their behaviors preceding alcoholic drinking, but it's clear that the disease of perception is there. Like, how... I feel like maybe I have some amends that I need to make, but I've had a couple of people advise me that those aren't my responsibility and then other people say differently. Do you want to answer that or do you want me to take it? I was just trying to think of one of the things I made amends for to my parents and one of the earlier things. I think another way to phrase that question is, because I've had it before too, is, like, if you're 55 years old and you have, 45 years of shit, like, are you going to sit around for the next four years saying, I did A, B, C, D, 1, 2, 3, or... That's not what I heard at all. That's not what I heard at all. What I heard was, it was, if there's perceived wrongs at a younger age, is at what point do you make the amends? And I know that I have made amends to my parents for things when I was younger. I just, I can't pinpoint an age. I think the basis was, if it's there, I make the amends for it. I think that's really the basis. If it's there, I make the amends for it. I was more cognitive of what I was up to at a young age than I want to take responsibility for. Okay? So, personally, I don't let myself off the hook too much because I know when I was pretty cognitive of what I was up to at certain times as a child, where I was doing this, it wasn't like I didn't, I couldn't blame it on being a child. All right? So. Did that answer your question? Thank you, yes. Yeah. You know, Red had his hand up. You know, I've got an edition of the big book where they left the word sorry out. And I'm just joking, but I know where it is. And I neatly evaded with guys I sponsor because without, you know, it's like they latch on to the word sorry and apology. And then they come back to me about making amends and they describe them, the mechanics they went through and it's completely not what we discussed. And what they did was they went and said, I'm sorry. And I was, every sponsor had, refuses to even let me use that word. Because I understand in the book, I just am disturbed right now. I don't know. I just, here's what I don't get. But there's still more stuff that needs to be followed through with in the amends process and I don't understand why they're stopping there. I'm not, and I didn't say that either. I said it's part of the process. Look, I'm too stupid to come up with something like this on my own. So I just follow the directions. Right? I'm going to put this the book on the shelf if it's the book says we say I'm sorry I'm gonna say I'm sorry I know that I'm staying it from a completely different place I know I'm a completely different place when I'm saying that then when I came through the door sometime when my mom saw me or whatever and I'm saying I'm sorry it's just a completely different person you can do completely different places but what says it so I do it I don't question well I agree with Dave I say and but I've also been taught that it's not about going in just to say I'm sorry right I mean there's a whole ton of stuff I got to do besides that and at the very end of it or in the very beginning of it I will usually come up and say I am really sorry for what I did but here is what I did and dah dah dah and is there anything I've left out and what can I do I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry do to make it right so there's that whole litany of things that need to be done but i do use the word sorry um this is kind of in reference to her i had surgery one time and uh i got a one bottle of pain pills in the prescription i said take every six hours well i took one every five hours i was seriously in pain and i and some people that where i come from in aaa were saying this and they were saying that's not kind of like yeah i was just confused as hell so i called scott and i said i'm taking this pain medicine and i'm taking it every five hours and i'm not taking it as prescribed and he says well he asked me something i said yeah i was in damn pain and he said well how do you feel about it i feel fine about it and he said okay because i thought i was going to get a white chip i mean my point is scott always kind of put things back on me and asked me how i felt about it because he's always told me that i know deep down inside what i need to do you see what i'm saying and i didn't feel like i needed to figure out why i was in damn pain gone i didn't go get any more pain medicine i took advil after that and but my point is just that i know deep down it's like i can does that make sense to y'all yeah okay that's one of the things actually i haven't really done one of these where i refer to frank as much as i have lately but i sort of miss him a lot lately um is he always said the same thing he'd say deep down you know what's right it's just whether or not you want to do it right you know i went to him over this marriage i was in it was it was getting bad and i said i don't know whether to leave i don't know what you know we were in counseling we tried this we tried that and he says you know what to do and i stuck it out for another six months you know just it was just ice cold brutality kind of thing going no nobody was talking to anybody that's all that was really going on but um you know i knew like a year before that that i should have gotten out you know and he just said you know what to do you know god's going to give you the answer um so i made an amends at because i've always heard what talk was saying but i also understand where you're coming from um and i think today where i'm at today if i want to make an approach with someone it would definitely be coming from a different spot the approaches i made at six months separated on step nine um you know six months prior that my mom was hearing I'm sorry, or a year prior she was hearing I'm sorry, etc., etc. And everyone in my life was hearing that. And so, when I work with the guys that I work with, I do give them a suggestion to leave that out because, you know, six months separated, sitting down in front of someone and saying I'm sorry, again, when they just heard that, really. My mom didn't hear that shit, honestly. And I have no idea what that experience would look like if I were to approach them in that way and just, you know, give them an honest, like, you know, along with me owning what I've done to you, I'm also sorry, and they're aware of that, you know. Is how they respond our business? Right, right. No, no, is it? That was a question, not a statement. No, no, it's not. And that's what I have to keep in mind as well. So, what's my responsibility is to follow the directions, right? It's not me saying it, right? Right, right. I mean, it's in the book. I'm not trying to argue with what you're saying. No, I understand. I understand. It's not me saying it. Right. It's in the book. Right. And I'm too stupid to not follow the directions. Right, exactly. And I guess I, you know, because it's always been, you know, you only know what you know type thing. Right. You know, for a long time, what I knew was go to meetings and I'll stay sober by doing that, and that was my experience, and stuff like that. And so, I've always heard, you know, that's not part of the amends process, is to say I'm sorry, and I guess. Had you seen a big book before? Or have you been told that? Before I was told that? Uh, yeah. So, who's responsible for your recovery? Probably. I understand. Thank you. There really isn't a situation with regards to amends that's not really covered in the big book. Right. There's infidelity. There's owing creditors. There's needing to go back and make amends to jailers. I mean, the whole thing. And there's no amends in the book. Look, you know what? I'm a firm believer in autonomy. Alright. I'm down with the fourth tradition of autonomy at the individual level. Whatever you do with this thing, I really don't give a shit. Right. But if you're asking me for help, this is what we're gonna do. If I'm asking you for help, I hope you show me what's in this. That's really what it boils down to. But really, this is a God's honest truth. As a general rule, and I'm honest, I don't think anyone's honest I don't give a shit what you're doing I don't care how you're doing your steps if you're doing your steps when it matters you're asking me for help I'm asking you for help or there's newcomers in the room that's when I that's when it matters to me that's it otherwise you can I am full bore on autonomy you want to come in here and share your experience but does not coincide with the book fine that's your business I've done it I mean I went to the grave site read in the man's letter but I also believe in afterlife so that's just my own personal opinion me too it brings into some spiritual terms in the book that I may not have been open to that I have to become open to if I'm really believing this thing's gonna work like the infinite power and love the God without time or limitation and interconnectedness right and I there was a there's a girl that I dated I had to make amends to and at first she said yes and then she said no I sent her a letter I had heard her name I don't know anything that's gone on with her in 15 20 years I go up to our 4th of July loggers jamboree that I hadn't been to in 10 15 years up in the mountains and I hear Jason Taylor memorial axe throw Jason Taylor was her brother and it's a memorial he's my age I didn't know he died so I go to my best friend is putting on the jamboree and he says he's dead and he goes what's this thing about Jason Taylor memorial he said he OD'd I said oh and I said we talked about it for a little bit I said how's Stephanie taking that that was her uh his sister she's dead too she committed suicide after she found out he overdosed and I thought instantly I thought I'm so grateful I did everything I could to make that amends so and and I've gone out and made amends too it's wacky stuff I don't know if anybody else has inventory like this but I had resentments towards dead relatives I had a resentment towards my uncle that blew his brains out after he come back from Vietnam I was only three years old because if he thought I was important enough to get to know he wouldn't have blown his brains out and I resented a dead person for that I went and made amends for that I believe in it too I believe in actuals I think there's some of those powerful amends yeah yeah I just wanted to share that a lot of the events that I made seems like were things that I thought that I had done to harm people but the overwhelming majority of the amends that I made I remember they were like what and they they don't remember what I did and um and when I think about that I think about the role of its people really dominated us and I think about the dancing reveal thing I think about how you know I thought I was hurting other people um and they didn't really care and it just it it reminds me how incredibly egocentric and self-absorbed that I am you know I think it's so important that I hurt other people you know and they're like I don't even remember that you know so I love that because that's exactly what amends is about it's about going out there and finding out just how you affect the world and how the world affects you that's absolutely right on I went to a guy in AA his name was Richard Grand he's long gone now and Richard I went up to make amends to Richard because I had borrowed some money from him and never paid him back and I went back to give him his money back and I said oh and by the way I've really just really disliked you for a long time and I'm sorry for that and he goes damn he says I've never even thought about you exactly it's like I start to learn that I'm not the center of the universe anybody else no other questions I guess we're done for this segment thank you for listening to sober Sunrise if you enjoyed today's episode please give it a thumbs up as it will help share the message until next time have a great day