The Choice Between an Alcoholic Death and a Spiritual Basis – Polly P.

Hi everybody, my name is Polly Pistol and I'm an alcoholic. And we would just love to thank you very much for allowing us this opportunity to share with you and we're going to try to tell you what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now. And we're going to try to be as honest as we can be about all three of those things and try to share with you some of the things that we've done as a family to tryと heal from the disease of alcoholism. And James and I are very much into the chapter, The Family, afterwards. and we're going to try to refer back to the book so that you also know that we are using the book and what we'd like to do at the end we don't know if that will work and we don' t know how long winded we're going to be but if you'd like to ask questions to us because sometimes if you ask a question that will bring something up that we do but we didn't think about to say but what you have to do is you have to be not shy, but you have to walk up here and use this mic to ask the question. So if you have a question and you want to do that, please come to the front and do that. And I'd like to introduce, that you've already heard him this morning, my gorgeous son James. Hi everybody, James Lee alcoholic we have done this my mom and I once we had we really didn't plan much just sort of you just start talking and telling our our story not like my story her story about our story I think that's what we're gonna do is that we haven't even talked about it so but as she said we're going to refer back to the big book and the big chapter 9 is the family afterward and my This is my opinion, but in my opinion that chapter holds so many principles of living a sober life. And that's what we want to hopefully get to. But we need to start with what it used to be like. And what it use to be is she use to drink a lot. And you're going to find this out tomorrow when she tells her story. What I alluded to this morning is my response to that was I checked out. and I can describe that to you telling this story I don't know, I must have been 13 14 maybe and this is when it was getting really bad as my mom was getting ready to start going into treatment centers trying to get sober one morning I woke up by the way, by this time I pretty much saw to it that I got where I needed to go all by myself So I got myself ready for school and got out to school and so on. And this morning, I woke up, and I walked into the kitchen. And my mom had passed out on the floor with a drink in her hand which spilled all over the floor. And here was my reaction to that. Here's what I did. I looked at the situation and I stepped over my mom got the cereal out of the cabinet got a bowl out of cabinet, poured the cereal in the bowl poured my milk on top of that I stepped back over her, I sat down at the breakfast table and I had my breakfast and that's what it was like in our house my brother on the other hand was the classic caretaker so if he had woken up first he would have picked you up put you you know put her in bed or whatever but that's not what I did so my role my my reaction to life was exactly like I described and that is not a way to live I guarantee you that um I started drinking prior to uh both of my children being born I started drinking at age 18. And one of the things that James has also not, he didn't say in his story, but we were a military family. So at alcoholism with never being in the same spot for a very long period of time. So relationships for the kids, you know, we as adults would make relationships and we kind of stayed friends with those and then make new relationships. But the children were in a constant state of making new relationships in a very, you know, chaotic house. And my alcoholism started to really progress probably about the time that the kids, that James probably started middle school. But it always had been there. And I was a person who used a lot of barbiturates, tranquilizers, and alcohol. So consequently, I would pass out to the stage that it looked like death. And the terror was with a lot with the kids was that they would see me in that state. And James got to the point that he paid no attention to it. And my other son was always screaming and shaking me, and, you know, are you dead? Are you dead?" And that was kind of what happened with the kids. Now, bear in mind that these children had a father, but their father was a member of the Strategic Air Command, And he was, he flew B-52s. He was gone all the time. So the children were with me. They had no real presence of a father. So here they are, no presence of a father and an alcoholic mother. And there was two things going on with me, either I was passed out incapable of taking care of the children, are I was screaming and raging and hitting and whatever. We preferred passed out. So this was, so one of the things that I think that we talk about that should be in a family is that the security. Children need to be safe. My children were not safe. And the big book on page 123 says, The family of an alcoholic longs for the return of happiness and security. There was no happiness and there was no security. My children Were Not Safe. They were not save with me. The other thing is, is I look at my grandchildren that are James' children or my other two grandchildren that are 11, 8, and 5. Now, my 11-year-old grandson has no idea what it's like to get up at 11 years old because my alcoholism was bad by the time James was 11 years older and certainly bad by the time his brother was 13, and they would get up, get themselves dressed, and get off to school because their mother was incapable of doing that. And they made their own lunches because there was no one there to do that for them. Their father was gone, and their mother couldn't get up in the morning. So those children had no consideration. The big book of Alcoholics Anonymous says, talks about consideration. He may be so enthralled by his new life that he, well when we got sober, I don't want to talk about that. That's in a minute. That there was no consideration of these children's feelings. And the other thing was the responsibility of a parent. The big book talks about responsibility. I could not be a responsible parent. And I was incapable of taking care of my children. And the other thing is, because of that, my children never brought their friends home because they didn't know how they would find their mother. By then, by the time that we had the end of the alcoholism. Their father had been medically retired from the Air Force. He had congestive heart failure, he was very ill and so he stayed in his bedroom all the time. And I stayed passed out on the den sofa. So the children would not bring friends home Because first of all, our house wasn't right. The daddy was sick, the mother was passed out, so there was no parental responsibility. And this is what these children were growing up in. And it formulated a lot of ideas of abandonment and through this program, James has been able to heal that for himself. And I was so grateful to an AA speaker that I heard early on in my sobriety. And it's helped. I still have had to, I've had a lot of problems with the guilt of being an alcoholic parent because one of the things is that James found the program of Alcoholics Anonymous My other son is not an alcoholic. But he's got a lot of mental problems, because this disease does a lot of stuff to people. And he has a lot those problems. And I'm grateful every day to the program because I can get to see James recover. I am never reminded of the disease of alcoholism because my son Russ doesn't have that, and his life does not get that much better. And so I'm so grateful for a speaker once that said, you know, I looked at my children and I said, all my problems, all your problems, have my name on them, but all your solutions have yours. and what I have finally been able to let go of is that I don't have any control over the solution and so when you come out of an alcoholic family it becomes the challenge to do whatever you need to do to heal from what happened and that becomes their challenge, not mine because I can't do anything about that and I guess the best of all is us watching Ryan grow up Because he's deaf and he has challenges. And we have to watch him do his struggles and go to school and be the only deaf kid in school. And I know that that's probably how my kids felt because I'm sure they're thinking nobody else is living like this, that there's not anybody else living like that. So that's kind of like how it was. And my reaction to that was, I was an alcoholic. So I would see what was happening to my kids. I would do some really horrible things to my children. So what you need to hear from me is that the hardest character defect I had to face as a sober, alcoholic mom is that I'm a child abuser. And I'm telling you today, women like me would not be able to keep their children because my children from a very young age were not cared for. They were not taken care of. They, like James said, just stepping over mom. That's what they did, except my son Russ. I mean, he did things that little kids shouldn't have to do. and he'd pick me up, put me in bed, and take care of me. That's what he would do. And James was perfectly willing to let him do it because he just looked at it and walked away. But that's what happens to little kids in these kind of families. And today I am a parent who neglected her children. And my daughter-in-law that James is married to is a social worker, And she has had to remove children from homes from parents like me. And that's what happens because little kids are running around not being taken care of. And that is what happened for my children. And one of the things that they say, you know, it will either come out of that and you're going to either make you everything you are or else it will kill you. And there's two reactions, and I have two sons, and I get to see this disease, and I gets to see the two reactions to the disease of alcoholism. And in a way I'm grateful because I'm a member of both programs. So Russ keeps me active in the rooms of Al-Anon. So that's probably a good thing because I am active in The Rooms of Al Anon, And it's the only thing I know to keep, to help with that kind of family illness is to, because if you are the parent of children who are suffering, then you know what I'm talking about. And my oldest son is 44 years old, and I guarantee you I have learned one thing that the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous talks about, and that at 44 years older, to health my son, I am powerless. I am powerless. There is nothing I can do to help you. So that's the way it was. I'm going to let James go on to the next phase. Do you want to add anything to that? I have to tell you guys, it's really hard to maintain this aura of being hip, slick, and cool when you hear stuff like this being talked about yourself. But the book talks about what we're actually doing right here. And it talks about, first of all, on page 122, there's a line that says, The doctor said to us, Years of living with an alcoholic is almost sure to make any wife or child neurotic. So I'll sign up for that right there. The entire family is, to some extent, ill. I agree with this. And I agree in my family too with my kids. Because I'm an alcoholic. And while I'm not a practicing alcoholic, I still have alcoholism, which means I'm still affecting my children as well. I don't agree with... When my mom says all your problems have my name on them and your solutions have yours, I'm sure I agree with that. I do agree with all my solutions have my names on it. But I think that my problems are based on my reaction to my reality. the root of my problems right there. My self-centered reaction to my reality. However, it's hard to live in an environment like that and not be affected. And that is the reality. So while I do not hold anyone responsible other than the disease of alcoholism really, and my reactions to it, I understand how that helps you frame the situation. So what I want to say is while I understand what she's, what my mom's saying about that, I do no think that my problems have her name on it. If that's the case, then her problems have someone else and so on. But I do agree that any recovery that I personally have is up to actions I take. There's nothing that she can do and she had to watch and she tried. Remember some of the things you did? She's sober in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and she'd say to me, James, We're saving a seat for you over at the group. Now, when you're 16, 17, you don't want to hear that, all right? And she said once, James had this great sponsor picked out. I wish you'd hurry up and get here. Do you want to know what my reaction to that was? I'll show you. I won't need this thing. Okay, so if you're a parent out there, are you thinking about picking sponsors for your kids? You may want to think twice about that. But anyway, so what we're sharing here is the past, which is uncomfortable in a way because it is – it was painful. But what the book says on page 124 is the alcoholics – I'll just read this paragraph. Henry Ford once made a wise remark to the effect that experience is the thing of supreme value in life. That is true only if one is willing to turn the past to good account. We grow by our willingness to face and rectify errors and convert them into assets. The alcoholic's past in the family thus becomes a principal asset of the family and frequently it is almost the only one. So the reason we share is because our past, I believe, is our principal asset, like the book says. All right, let's just say for argument that my mom's right, that every problem I have has her name on it. Here's my reaction to that today, my response to it. Thank you. Thank you. Because everything that I've experienced got me ready for AA, which got me a seat in Alcoholics Anonymous, which got mean this many years later sitting here. So if my problems have your name on them, thank you, but they don't. Okay, your turn. Okay. that's the next thing that I want to talk about is kind of give you an idea of what it was like and what it's like most of you, a lot of you I don't know what it is like to grow up in an alcoholic home I did not grow up in an alcoholic home but then recovery started and I got sober and I also between that well one of the things that happened after I got sober, and I did not get sober easily. I was not one that walked into AA and said, that's it. I was going to treatment centers, and of course my little kids were being dragged into family groups and this thing and that thing, and I was being found in motels with other men. I mean, it was pretty bad because I just, I was desperately trying to die. And I was on, during a time from about January to April when I got sober, January of 76 until I got sore in April of 77, I had three suicide attempts and my children were involved in all of that. and also I would be caught with other men and just some disgusting things that kids are put through because of the disease of alcoholism. Well, I get sober. Now, when I finally got it, the third time around when I got sober and I started in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, I got it. You know, it's just like, I got to go. And I fell in love with Alcoholics Anonymous. And what began to happen is that I didn't drink in bars, and I didn' t do those kind of things, and I did' n start having all these men around until I started going to treatment. And that's when that all started. We'd run off and get drunk together. and uh but when i got sober i got it but i'm here to tell you i did some stuff sober that was just as bad and then it was it's one of the things i want to talk about is consideration and on page 126 this is where i wantto talk about the consideration he may be so enthralled by his new life that he talks or thinks of little else. In either case, certain family problems will arise. With these we have had experience galore and I can tell you that I was so in love with Alcoholics Anonymous, I was desperately trying to get him sober. Just knew I had the answer for him. I was dragging him off to open AA meetings. I was making them go to Allotine. And I was told, you make them go to nine meetings of Allotine and then they can make their own decision. Well, James found a whole crew of dope-smoking Allotines, so he loved Allotine! They were made to go too, by the way. So they loved Allotine, Russ went to nine meetings and said, I'm never going back there again. And here I was talking AA and doing all this stuff in AA. Well, guess what's happening to my family and their opinion of AA? They hate it. They hate me being an AA. They hate me going to a meeting every night. They hate me running around doing all the stuff I'm doing and I wanted to be in everything. I'm in love with AA. So what I do is I did just what the book said. I started hanging out in AA and the book says if you're doing that, we might as well just be hanging out bars because we are no more used to our family than we were before we got sober. So I wasn't doing much else. Page 127, it says responsibility. The head of the house ought to remember that he is mainly to blame for what befell his home. He can scarcely square the account in his lifetime. And I have to remember that, that, you know, I'm not going to square this account in my lifetime. Account squared. Account squared, but he must see the danger of over concentration on financial success. Although financial recovery is on the way for many of us, we found we could not place money first for us material well-being always follows spiritual progress It never proceeds. So here I'm doing two things. I'm needing to work because my husband is medically retired. So I've got my, you know, I'm going to be working. I'm Doing All This Stuff. I'm Going to AA Meetings. I am doing nothing in my home. I am not a participant in my Home. I'm a participant In Alcoholics Anonymous, and I am a participant in my work and little else. So I had to learn a really magic word that's in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. And I don't know if it's a magical word for you, but it's called balance. And I didn't know how to do family, do work, and do AA. I just didn't Know How To Get Those Things Together. And I'd go home and the families, you know, they're just like three pit bulls. because I'm, are you going to AA again? And yet I knew, because I am a real alcoholic. I am the kind of alcoholic that needs a lot of meetings. I'm 27 years sober and I still need a lot of meetings, I am an alcoholic. I am real alcoholic, and when I first got sober I went to a meeting every single day for the first five years of my sobriety, and sometimes two and three meetings a day. That's the kind of alcoholic I am. And I just couldn't seem to get it all together. So what happened was is we had a lot of problems in the family sober. So just because AA came to be, things didn't get better. So I'm going to let him go from there. Just to set the record straight, though, but it was way better than you being drunk. There's no question about that. And at this time, I kind of started my career. So I started to really get out there, start doing my deal and working up my story. And, you know, they say the alcoholic is the big book that another person... I mean, maybe the only big book another person reads, right? That's what people say all the time. And Mom was my big book. So I decided to start reading Mom. And I have to tell you, the first three years of reading that big book, it read like a torrid sex novel. Do you want to tell them about that? Maybe not. But, and I got some old ideas about Alcoholics Anonymous, some of which I shared earlier. And that was, I would go to meetings and I would get the sense that an alcoholic was someone who did the jails treatments and so on. But here's what I believe. And that is, I am grateful to have been told to go to those nine meetings of Alateen. Because I did get involved. I can remember, I went, jeez, 1978? I went to the Texas Alatean Convention, is what it was called. And a bunch of Alatines from all over Texas. Hundreds of kids there, hundreds of them. And there was this God As We Understand meeting on Sunday. and that meeting God showed up I'm telling you, God was there and that was my first non-drug induced spiritual experience I believe and I mean it was unbelievable and so here I am about 15 16 years old and I'm going to this convention and all of a sudden God has entered this room and there's no question about it in my mind of his presence and so here is this choice and it reminds me of the choice at the very beginning of the chapter through the agnostics there's this line, I love this line and it says I'll just read it to you because I don't quote the big book very well here it is this is the choice the alcoholic has to make to be doomed to an alcoholic death I knew if I was an alcoholic I was going to die, I just knew that because I watched her die So I knew that was my future. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. Don't you love that? Only alcoholics would have it be a hard decision to make. So here I was, 15, I'm making this choice. Here's God. I feel God in my life. I know this is the solution. I'm weighing over here. Weighing over here, alcoholic death. So here on 15. How painful is this alcoholic death? And that's the choice I made. Because on the way home from that Texas Allotine Convention, we were getting loaded. And that was the choice I made But as I shared earlier I am truly grateful that I was exposed to that because when it was my time on that day all those memories came back to me and I knew that this was the answer I knew it So my experience I would never give anyone advice. My experience is this. The fact that my mom encouraged me to go to Alateen has ended up being a good thing, a very good thing. So that's my experience there. James was talking about when he first came to the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, it looked like it read like a torrid sex novel. Well, what happened for me is I have a sick husband. I've been alcoholic, passed out, and I get sober. And I just started some behavior. I got married when I was 18 years old. And I'd been with this one man. And I got sober, andI just, I don't know, I just turned into a 17-year-old kid. And Ijust started acting out in ways that were very unbecoming to someone at that time who was 36 years old And I started doing things at Alcoholics Anonymous. I was not a good example of Alcoholics Anonymous and today I have, it's really important for me to be principled and it's important for my behavior the first three years of being sober in the rooms of Alcoholic Anonymous because I was just I just wanted to be loved so bad And I didn't have a relationship with a higher power, so I was acting out sexually. And I was doing things in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, and my children saw that. I mean, I wasn't really hiding a lot of stuff. And my marriage, I mean there's no question about my marriage was in the toilet. I mean it was gone. I mean we occupied the same house, but there had been no marriage there for many, many, many years. And so when I got sober, I just acted like I wasn't married. And I didn't even act like I was sober as far as my behavior went. And, uh, so today I feel like that was another responsibility. First of all, I give my children a very bad look at Alcoholics Anonymous. Well, what is this? You get sober and this is how you behave. And so that's what I did. And for that today, now when I work with women, I try very hard. And I said, if you want to bring shame on yourself, you walk into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and you behave that way. And, and I really try to help them remain principled. And it's really important today for me, for my children, for the women I sponsor, my husband, but most of all myself as I answer to my God that I behave like a sober married alcoholic. And at three years of sobriety I remarried. So not only had alcoholism been there But I also ended up putting my children through divorce. And my oldest son, still today, says the worst thing that ever happened to me is my mother and daddy divorcing. And he's 44 years old. He says today that's still the worst things that ever happen to him. And I know those are traumatic things. So what I was still doing, sober, was selfish and self-centered. I was, well, I'm sober and I need to go to these meetings. So even in sobriety, I am not giving my family any consideration. So I wanted to point that out. And I kind of like to read what the big book says about spiritual pride. Assume, on the other hand, that Father has, at the onset, a stirring spiritual experience. Now I didn't have a stirring spirituality experience, I didn' t think. But I was sober. And I had tried everything on the planet to be sober. So anytime anybody said anything to me, it's, I'm sober. Overnight, as if it were, he is a different man. He becomes a religious enthusiast. I was very religious about AA. I just wasn't religious or didn't have any responsibility about my behavior. He is unable to focus on anything else. As soon as his sobriety begins to be taken as a matter of course, the family may look at their strange new day with apprehension and then with irritation. There is talk about spiritual matters, morning, noon, and night. He would demand that the family find God in a hurry. Every Sunday morning, I made my family go to this meeting in Fort Worth, this AA meeting. They all had to go. We all piled in the car and we went to this AA meet on Sunday morning. Now the religion is AA. He may tell mother who has been religious all her life that she doesn't know what it's all about and that she had better get his brand of spirituality where there is still yet time. They had to do it my way. When father takes this tact, the family may react unfavorably. They may be jealous of God who has stolen dad's affection, in this situation mom's affection. While grateful that he no longer drinks, they may not like the idea that God has accomplished the miracle where they had failed. They often forget Father was beyond human aid. They may not see why their love and devotion did not straighten him out. Dad is not so spiritual after all, they say. If he means to right his past wrongs, why all this concern for everyone in the world but his family? what about his talk that god will take care of them they suspect father is a bit balmy don't you love the the words that bill uses the big ball man so sobriety wasn't looking all that great for my family they didn't think it was all that big a deal well you know now you're just you know your actions are terrible and you go to aa all the time so you know we're not all that impressed with your AA. Okay, your turn. Yeah, what was really freaky was one day I went to the, that Sunday morning meeting and I saw my hockey coach there. That explained a lot of behavior during practice time, I guarantee you. But anyway, so it's true, the first three years as I like to joke read like a torrid, her big book read like an torrid sex novel. But after that things changed. And she and Dave began to be the examples of Alcoholics Anonymous that literally sold me on AA. After a period of time, they got married. They ended up in Santa Monica, California. So I moved out there. And I started living with them. And I was a practicing alcoholic in a big way. And one of the stories is she worked at this hospital. I used to stuff envelopes, you know, for money. That was kind of a side job I had. And she always wondered, how do you do that so fast? And then one day she walks in the room and here's a picture of her and Dave, very nice picture, sitting on my bed with a razor blade and a little roll-up $20 bill. And she had no clue as to why I got to stuff envelope so fast. But I tell you, you were doing what I was doing. You're moving fast. But anyway, so I'm living with them and I have this behavior. And to their credit, they were not trying to sell me on anything. They were just loving me is what they were doing. And one day I'll never forget it. Al-Anon. There you go. One day I was ripped. I was whipped this day. I don't know what I had done or how much I drank or whatever. Dave and Polly came into my room. They said, we're going to go to an A meeting. Dave's talking. I'm like, great. See ya. and they came back and Dave came in my room and talked to me and there was something about Dave. There was something about his eyes. They were lit up. He was on fire and in his eyes I saw what I wanted and that is how I believe we sell Alcoholics Anonymous to our family. My experience, this is my experience, parents can't get their kids sober but they can live the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and that's what Polly and Dave were doing at that time. We need our, well that's what you say, we can't get our kids sober but we can get each other kids, each other's kids sober and that is how it worked for me. But while there was a rocky road in the beginning some corner got turned, and they began to sell Alcoholics Anonymous to me. They were the big book that I read for about three and a half years at that point. And that's why when that moment came for me, I knew what the answer was, because they had lived it. One of the stories, James talked about that this lady Barbara was such an influence in his life because he called her to take this woman to a meeting. Barbara, it's how God works. Because what happened was I 12-stepped Barbara into AA and Barbara 12-estepped James into AA. And that's those miracles that we keep, that keep happening. So now I'd like to go into what was going on with you. Let's skip those early years of my sobriety. We'll move right on to what I was... Well, I just want to talk about those of you who are alcoholic or Al-Anon and have had this troubled life and then you have these kids. I just wanted to tell you that I understand what it's like to watch your child die of the disease of alcoholism and the prayers and how you don't quite go to sleep until they come in at night and all of that kind of stuff. So I just want you to know that we've walked that side of the road as well and have also walked the side ofthe road with psychiatric hospitals and suicide attempts and mutilation and stuff like that with my oldest son. You should also mention Dave's kids, too. Dave's kid, yeah. Because you walked out with Dave's children. We have four children, and three of them are alcoholics and drug addicts, and Russ has the psychiatric problems. But both of Dave's Children were dying as well with James. And, in fact, his daughter, we had not seen his daughter until three years ago for 15 years. She was on the streets of Denver doing what women have to do to support an alcohol and cocaine habit. And Dave did not see her. His son got sober when he got sober, and then he ended up, Dave's son was gay, and he ended up with being HIV. And the HIV manifested itself into lung cancer and Mike died at age 42 with eight years of sobriety. And he was a beautiful, beautiful man. And he loved AA and he did. He was a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. And then when he was dying, right before he died, Kim showed up, and she was eight months sober. And Dave gave her her first cake at Seal Beach, her first-year birthday cake. So it's kind of like all our kids are home. They're all home. But there's been a lot of heartbreak as parents watching children die of the disease of alcoholism. So Dave and I have both been down that road with our four children. And so I just want to just kind of throw that in for that part, because you're not going to know that unless you've experienced that, because I didn't understand it until I experienced it. And now I'd kind of like to go into what it's like today. How much time do we have? You're the keeper of the clock. I figure we'll go about 20 minutes, and then we can ask for questions. Okay. Why don't you start, son? All right. This is my experience, once again, my opinion and experience. I believe what the family afterward is all about is about steps 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9. And of course every day do that, so that's step 10. So I believe that for me, for me to have a relationship with my family members means that I am constantly looking for my part in situations sharing that part, taking responsibility for that part. Sharing that part with my sponsor. Asking God to identify in character defects. Asking god to remove those character defects and then making amends. And I believe through this, so when I'm looking, so let's say, for instance, this never happens. Let's say mom does something that kind of makes me mad. Never happens. Okay? Yeah, right. my job is not to say mom you did this how could you it's to say okay where was i why am i resentful you know what does it affect and do essentially do a four-step on what's going on with me then share that with my sponsor or someone appropriate identify my character defects and what I did in this situation, what needs to be rectified. Making amends. And here's the amazing thing. When I do that, forgiveness comes. And so for me, what recovery in the family is all about is about inventory, amends, and forgiveness. It's all about that. You've heard my mom describe a lot of the things that happened when we were kids. I have absolutely no bad feelings about that at all. As a matter of fact, as I shared earlier, I'm grateful. My feeling is I'm thankful for every time she wanted to control me, yank me by the head of the hair. Remember you used to do that? I do believe that as a result of her pulling on my hair so many times when I was a kid, now at 42 it's beginning to fall out. For that, I have a resentment about. But other than that, I'm very grateful for all those experiences. Now, that was not the case when I was a kid. When I was an teenager, I was angry. And when I Was Newly Sober, I was entitled to... I was mad. There's no way to say that. But today, I've no anger about that. It's all about forgiveness. And then I get to put her through a similar thing. And so what I did was, as I'm working the program, and you know how we do in the early years, do the best we can. I remember I did a four-step, made my list. Strange thing. She was on my resentment list. Can you believe that? Anyway, so I do my inventory, and then, of course, she's on my eight-step list, so I make amends. And here's how those amends went. I'm really sorry for all I did. I know I hurt you, about that flat. Because I really could not, I was doing the best I can, there's no question about it, in making those amends. But I could not connect with what I actually did. And I think that for me, over time in recovery, I began to sort of get in touch with, on a gut level, what I Actually Did and how harmful that is. And I think that was mainly as a result of having children myself. So having kids myself, I kind of can only imagine at this point what it must be like when my son's Ryan is 11. You know, in our neck of the woods, that's about the time kids start, you know, in junior high smoking pot or whatever. And so I can only image, I was talking about this earlier, I can't only imagine what this is like or will be like. Well, we'll see. But it was the year 2000. It was during summer, summer of 2000. I had started to realize on a gut level what this, what I had done. I mean really, really feeling the remorse that's appropriate for my behavior. And so what happened was July 4th weekend in 2000 Dave and I flew up to Minneapolis for the International And I sat with Dave after a meeting, and I sat him down. I said, Dave, I want you to know, I really get it, what I did. And I really understand, I get to a degree how much I hurt you. And I want to say I'm so incredibly sorry about that. And his answer was, you know, essentially you don't have anything to apologize for because he had forgiven me. And I came home and sat with my mom on the porch. And I said the same conversation. I said, Mom, I get it now. I'm really, really sorry. Like in my gut for what I've done. And that moment, it was gone. So it's about inventory, asking God to remove defects, making amends and forgiveness. And that is a miraculous, it's such a simple thing. You can't work like that, can it? It's too simple. I'm a complicated alcoholic. I want 164 pages. Forget it. A thousand pages at least for me. But anyway, so that's my experience with the steps and family recovery. When I got sober, I had a wonderful sponsor. And when I finished my fifth step, my first AA sponsor was a man, and he had been a Monsignor priest. And he'd also been a captain in the Navy. And so it was a lot of stuff because I had been married to an officer. And, I mean, it was just all of this stuff. He was a healing force for me. And he loved me so much that he'd get in my face and tell me the truth, whether I wanted to hear it or not. And he told me, he says, Polly, you're a child abuser. And he says. And I want you to go make amends to those boys. And I don't want you be saying things like, I'm sorry I hurt you. You're to tell them, you know, I am sorry. I am a child abuse. Or I have abused you. And I won't chew it. He says. And they are going to have a lot to say. Because they were 14 and 16 years old when I got sober. And they were angry. They were real angry. And he says, they're going to have some stuff to say to you. And he said, you get to do one thing. The only thing you get the say is you don't get to say you shouldn't feel that way because I'm sober today. He says, the only thing that you get say is that I'm so sorry that that happened to you and I will spend the rest of my life being the very best mom I can be. And that's what I did. And they we're very, very angry. but I did what I was told to do and that's all I did I just did what I was called to do I was scared I didn't know if I could really do it or not and I went through the actions of taking direction and taking actions that I just knew wouldn't work and that I was terrified and as the years went by I began to to see the kids and to see the effect that the disease of alcoholism was having on their lives and then I began to know the pain that the diseaseof alcoholism had caused and I just and I didn't really know what to do about you know I mean the pain was getting so great that I could hardly stand it I was even And I was even fearful for my own sobriety. Will I be able to handle the guilt? But, you know, this program is amazing and God is amazing. And I just began to start taking some other actions and just be the best mom I could be and make sure that I call my children and that I did things. And I went to Al-Anon, and that helped. I had started going to Al Anon before James got sober, But I started doing some stuff in earnest, and I started doing the steps. And I started making living amends. And I starting encouraging my children. I started showing up and doing stuff. James was in college and I made sure that I attended stuff what was important for him and doing the things that I was told to do and began to make those living amens. And it was amazing, by me taking these actions, I can't sit down and try to think myself out of being guilty. I can t do that. I've got to start taking actions. So I started doing things a good mom would do. I started attending stuff at his school. And I was living in California, and he was at the University of Texas at Arlington. And Dave and I didn't have a lot of money, but I made sure I attended the things that were important in his life. And I was doing the same thing for my oldest son who was living in Michigan. We started making sacrifices to do the things that needed to be done to be good parents. And we did that with Mike as well. Kim we were not in touch with. She didn't want to be around us. And miracles started to happen. The miracles of recovery began to happen, and those feelings of guilt began to go away. And then Dave and I, then James and I could sit down and talk about some really terrible things and start to laugh about it. And like I used to, he was not, I used to say to him, if you were my first kid, you would have been the last kid because he was tough. Note to parents, don't say that. He was tough and I used to say one day you will have a kid just like you so that's your fault he does and we used and now we laugh about this stuff and i used to grab he had this big and he's got you can't tell it now but he's Got really natural curly hair well he wanted long hair you know like kids so his hair just bushed and it would just the longer he get it the bigger it grew and it was it was wonderful if i got luckily we don't have the slideshow presentation to show that yeah so i mean i could just it was just so easy to just and just give it that you know And we got to where we could laugh about these horrities. And that was recovery, to where you could start laughing about the tragedies, about Mom passing out on Christmas Eve and we couldn't open the presents because Mom passed out and we had to wait until the next day because Dad wouldn't let us open the presence. And then we began to laugh about some of the stuff that had happened. But the real recovery that I've had as an alcoholic mom is when he had Ryan. Go ahead. When he had Brian. And what I have got to do as a grandma is I've been given a second chance to be a really good grandma. And I'm here to tell you, because of you people, I am a dynamite grandma. And they love being with me. They're not at all, they don't mind at all if they go off and stay for days and go have a little second honeymoon now and then. In fact, we're very happy to get rid of them. you know that all grandparents can kids have a common enemy parents and so God gives us these gifts that we get to do I've had so much healing with my grandchildren because I don't raise my voice at them I have never ever hit one of my grandchildren and I hit my children And I've never pulled anybody's hair. I've pulled them off of each other, you know, because they tend to get into it. But you get to have that opportunity. God gives us the opportunities to heal. So your turn. Well, so what it's like today. As I mentioned this morning, our family is, we're an Alcoholics Anonymous. It's about AA. there's Ollie and Dave are sober myself and my wife are sober our kids are sober I think they are 11, 8, and 5 and we practice the principles in all our affairs at home practice AA at home to the best of our abilities I am not a perfect dad their job as my mom points out to me change your children's job is to make you crazy and they do very good at that And there are times when I am not your poster child for what it is to be a dad. But most of the time, I'm a real good dad. Most of the times. My wife is an amazing mother. Our kids are very, shall we say, they move around a lot. And they have their own personalities. and we're not in there trying to make their personalities anything other than they are. Our family does things together surrounding Alcoholics Anonymous. A perfect example is every year we go to an AA convention in July in Crested Butte, Colorado called the Cresteds Butte Mountain Conference and this conference was designed for kids. I want to take a second here to give the committee of this conference their props because this conference is providing child care during these meetings That is not a normal thing. One of the things that we did in our home group is we decided we wanted families to come to our meeting. It's an open meeting. We want everyone to come. And so what we do is we provide child care for the kids. I think that is an incredibly amazing thing that this committee has done. So my hats are off to you guys for doing that. Anyway, this Crested View Mountain Conference is all about families, all about kids. And so the kids love to go. What the kids do all day is they go rock climbing or whitewater rafting or horseback riding or whatever, and the adults go to these boring AA meetings all day. And then at night we get together for dinner, and then at nighttime the kids have camp while the big meetings are going on. So it's all about doing this. This program can be experienced together. It does not have to be dad goes to meetings twice a week or anything like that. And I'm so grateful that our family has the opportunity to do things like this. My mom talks all over the place all the time, so whenever she's anywhere near Chicago, Illinois, we are in the car driving to wherever she's going as a family, so we take the kids. We don't drag them to the meetings or anything like that, but they get to see Alcoholics Anonymous work. And so if it ever gets to the point where, you know, my son finds himself in my position, then he'll know. My hope is that he will see a side of Alcoholics Anonymous that works. And our life today is incredible. I mean, one of the things I want to say to those of you listening to this, it's like Disneyland, isn't it? You're probably, wow, what's going on here? This is not necessarily a normal experience. And we understand that. But this is our experience, and this is an experience that can happen. So the hope is that while it doesn't happen for everybody, it can happen if we as individuals, like it says in the book, in The Family Afterword, our job is to concentrate on our part and then make amends for our behavior and to forgive others for theirs, and that's what it's all about. I believe if we do that, then the miracle of Alcoholics Anonymous and recovery can kind of be integrated into the family. Some of the other things we do are – your turn to talk about more stuff we do. Well, I don't know what you're going to – we do a lot of stuff together. I just didn't know which one you were going to allude to. What are you alluding to? You know, it just actually went out of my mind. I was trying to make a segue without looking like I completely drew a blank. Oh, okay. I want to there's just this past year we spent a week in Crested Butte and then a week later Kelly and the kids came to Birch Bay and spent two and a half weeks and then I went to Chicago because the kids were Ryan was going to start middle school and Maddie was going to start kindergarten so it's kind of like milestones and some you know, some new stuff going on in their lives. So I went to Chicago for 10 days. Now these are the things that we essentially as a family were interacting except for one week for like six weeks. We still love each other. We lived there six weeks together. And it was just fabulous. It was just fabulous. And I also don't talk that much about Dave's kids and my other son because we don't really see Kim that much, although she is an Alcoholics Anonymous. But my oldest son is not in AA, but Dave and I live just 10 minutes from them. So until we moved to Birch Bay a year ago, I was 12 years in Southern California. My son moved to Southern California from New Jersey, so I was12 years with them. So my interaction with my granddaughters and my son and his wife was on a daily basis. So there's been enormous healing in all areas. I'm here to tell you that my oldest son, Russ, is still not really fond of you people. He is still grateful that I don't drink and I don'T do those things, but he does not like still to this day the time I spend in AA. He still has not recovered from that resentment. He does not like the time I spend in AA. But Maddie wasn't born yet, and this is kind of like the best of the best. And Maddie Wasn't Born Yet, and James and Kelly came to California, and they told Dave and I that they needed to talk to us about some stuff. And James commenced to say, well, Mom, we've made a will, And if anything should happen to Kelly or I, we want you and Dave to take the boys. Now, I don't think that anything says that a healing has taken place more than that James and Kelly are willing, after what James has been through because of the disease of alcoholism, the miracle of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is he's willing to entrust me with his children. and Kelly told somebody we were sitting around in Crested Butte this year and she said I won't leave my children with anybody overnight but Polly that's coming a long way that's a big healing that she says I won' t leave my childern overnight with anybody but Pally and that's what you've done and you have changed me and made me someone who is fit to be with children. And before I came here, I was unfit to be with children because I did not know how to treat children. And today I do. And we have a lot of fun. We have a love being a grandma. I love it. And there's a lot of good news about that because if they misbehave or whatever they do, it's okay. I'm going to hand them over later. So I don't have to be responsible for any of that. So, I get to have all the fun and I have five grandchildren and that's all we're going to have because the boys are fixed. So we're done. That's too much information, Robin. So anyway, I don' t know if you have any questions that you'd like to ask us or maybe something that we didn't say. And, you know, I also want to tell you it's not always fabulous, okay? We certainly have our ups and downs and we get, you now, upset with each other. And, in fact, there's been many a times that James will say to me, Mom, that's none of your business. I'm still, I still got some healing to doing that button into other people's business area. Or sometimes I say, Mom, that's too much information. so i mean but we what james says is is that we practice these principles and we we make sure that what we do is we make Sure, that step 10 is always in effect which is four five six seven eight nine so go ahead questions questions anybody have a question don't be shy sweetheart just walk up here Would you please? Yeah, do it. Just don't be shy. Come on. Is your first husband and his birth father alive, still part of your lives? No. My dad died about, gosh, Maddie was not born. So that's six years ago. Can you believe that? Oh, that's right. He died of lung cancer. And I'll tell you this quick story since you brought it up. So this is what Alcoholics Anonymous did for me. My dad and I butted heads, and he was a guy I always wanted to get his approval. Never felt like I had his approval, this is my perception. And he was a very absent father. That's the reality of it, is he was absent. He was an excellent grandfather. He was awesome grandfather. The kids loved him. And he got real sick with cancer, and he was not given long to live. And so what I would do is I would fly down. He lived in Texas. I live, of course, in Evanston, Illinois. and so what I would do is I'd fly down every other weekend to see them because what you guys taught me to do is you taught me that's what sons do they show up for their dads they show they show and so I'd go and I would visit my dad and I remember this one week I went to visit and his wife who his wife said I think it's almost it's almost over you know he doesn't have long and I don't believe he'll be here next weekend. So if you have anything to say to him, go say it. And the miracle of Alcoholics Anonymous is all I had to go to say to him was, Dad, I love you. I'll see you next week. Because it had all been said. There was no deathbed sorries to make. There was not a, I can't believe I did this, and I regret. There was now regrets to be said. and he died during that week and I went down the next week for the funeral. And that's what you guys taught me to do. That's the kind of person you guys have taught me how to be and I'm so grateful for that, so grateful. Good question. And that is another thing with that. He and I had a fabulous relationship. We had these two children together and we had a fabulous relationship And his wife, who is stepmother to my sons, is still very much a part of their lives. And what happens is she would come to California to see my son there and her grandchildren. And what she would do is she Would stay with Dave and I because their house really didn't accommodate. So I need to let, what we didn't let you know is that also was a very healing relationship with them. Her children who are, you know, brothers and sisters to my sons. All of them have, it's still really, it'S still an involved family even though he's not here anymore. And that's all because of AA. so any more questions don't be shy please please don't be shy alright explain and elaborate on material for us material well-being always follows spiritual progress it never precedes James says I have a perfect story for that in 1993 three, Dave and I lost everything. And the bottom fell out of aerospace and we lost everything and I tell you what, I was pretty angry at God. But I got over it faster because Ryan, we found out Ryan was deaf at that same time and his deafness was so much bigger than us losing everything. But Dave and i ended up, we had to file bankruptcy, our house was repossessed. I mean, things were bad. And Dave said, looked at me and he says, Paula, you know, it's just like what Janis Joplin sang a song, you know, that freedom's having nothing left to lose. He says, we have each other and we have AA, we'll be fine. And what we did is we found this house and we rented it. So we didn't have one of those big houses in California when we left. And we used to bring people in and stay in our house. We always had some stray there that didn't have a place to live. And we called it God's house because it was a great big house and there was no way we'd have, but ordinarily, I mean, there's no possible way we should have had that house. And it just was beautiful. It was just beautiful. And today Dave and I get to live in Birch Bay, Washington in a house that we built and it overlooks the ocean. And I don't know how you get from there to there. There's just no possible way. And we know that it's totally God's gift. That those material things, we just gave all that up. We didn't have it. And so here we are in our 60s and we have a house. And we didn't have one for a really long time. So those material things, I guess what happened is we lost them all and forgot about them, and then they showed up again. Other questions? Please don't be shy. Oh, good. See, you bring up things that we don't think about when you ask this, just like, gosh, how did we forget your dad? How many years after you made your amends to each other did it take you to get your relationship to where it is now? She was, how many years did it takes to get it to where is now. After our amends. After our Amends. It's, I made my amends and the boys they even though James was still using drugs and alcohol He even came to live with Dave and I in California. He wanted to be with me. So even though all of that was taking place, it was immediate. Well, no, it's not true. It wasn't immediate for Russ. Because when I married Dave, Russ was very angry about the divorce. So he didn't talk to me for about two years. And he still doesn't call me. I call him. but it's not because he doesn't love me it's just that his self worth is so low he just doesn't believe he has anything to call about nothing's happening nothing's going on in his life there's no point calling nobody would be interested anyway but what I do is I call but do the amends and amazing things will happen what I would add to that is I don't know what the time frame was I really don't want to quantify that but I can tell you this that it continues to improve as we do the work continues to improvement and you know what we weren't at first is that we were cordial and kind but we weren' t comfortable you know that's kind of it was kind of strained it wasn't really that comfortable and we were polite with each other. Now we're casual, but I'd go visit him and I was, you know, polite, kind of stiff and uncomfortable. But today it's easy. It's free. And that improves every day. That gets easier and easier every day And we can be more and more, you know, more open, more intimate with each other instead of so stiff. But also it takes work. And this is true with my relationship with my wife, my relationship avec my kids, my friends, sponsees. All my relationships require me to work. And the work is the last thing I want to do, which is focus on my part in the relationship. I just, I want to make it everybody, this is still something I do, I want make it everyone else's fault. Good question. Very good question. Just, you know, just say you're sorry. One time I was, this lady had, there was big resentment, and I went to Frank Honeycutt, who was my husband's sponsor and also James' sponsor, and he said, well, you go make amends to her. And I said, for what? I mean, this has, for a while. I mean, she did this to me. And he said, Polly, the book says you go make amends whether they're real or fancied. She thinks you did something to her. So it doesn't matter. So make amens anyway. And I found out that that works. It works. That woman still can't stand me, but I love her. She's not free, butI am. And that's what, you know, my son is still angry at me. My oldest son is stilI angry, but I'm not angry. And every day I am more compassionate with what he deals with because he does have some psychiatric problems. And I'm more compassionate about what he dealS with and how, you know, I wish he handled them differently. I wish she did different things with what, you know, that are available to him. But he doesn't choose to do that. So I just love him and accept what he's doing today. We have time for one more question. We have three minutes. So quick question. Buck, there's no questions. Oh, we got a question. Oh, мы got a qуещнь. Yay! Make it quick. We'll give a fast answer. You spoke to feeling a need of being accepted by your parent, I think your dad. Yes. Being at least a second generation alcoholic, I've had this situation with my daughter. How can I start to make amends and build it back? This is a very good question. My answer to this is to tell them that you love them. Tell them that they are important. and act that way as well. My dad was unable to do that with me. I now know that he always loved me and approved of me, but he was unable to tell me that until the very end. So what I do with my kids is I tell them, I love you. You're great. What you're doing is great. I can't wait to go watch you do this or that. And even if they don't believe it, just do it. And hopefully it's sincere. But even if it's not sincere, fake it. Does that answer your question? Okay, we're out of time. We love you guys very much. Thank you for our lives. Thank you to our families. Thank God, thank Alcoholics Anonymous and you guys. Love you. Thank you.