The Charismatic Cheerleader Sponsor – 12 Steps and Service Workshop – Part 1 of 6 – Don P. and Jerry E. – Don Pritts and Jerry E

How do you get here to looking good? This is the P.A., Mike. Is that a little bit better? Okay, this is P. A. I didn't even know we had P. We did until about a minute ago. This is tape and this will pick up. Alright. Thank you. I believe the most important thing that will happen this weekend is when you all are talking to one another. So as long as you're doing that, I will not interrupt. The toughest part of any group activity comes after any break in the re-gathering. Very difficult, and it's a life thing. That's just an automatic response to so many photo shoots. For eleven years I did a little retreat in Santa Barbara, California for a group of loonies out of the Los Angeles and Santa Monica Basin. I love them dearly, but I'm glad I don't live there. Monastery outside of Santa Barbara up on the hill. Lovely, lovely place. But regathering was always difficult. And on this one particular occasion, we had a couple professional singers that were sitting next to me. I'm not used to hearing myself talk. It's terrible. Don't listen. Everybody's busy chatting and we're not getting back to it. And they know how I operate, I won't interrupt. So one of them went, hmmm. His partner just reflexed, went, mmmm. It was just gorgeous. It just went all over the room. It was beautiful. And at the next break when we came back in, they did it again and a couple people out there joined in. The room got quiet and I got this vision in my head, oh my God, they're going to go back down into the L.A. basin and say, look what Don taught us at the retreat. being on time is absolutely critical to the spiritual life and I'm not talking about the clock the clock comes from that it doesn't come from the clock there's only one time there's only one place and that's here and now the only time I can experience the presence of God is now So I must be on time in order for that to occur. We've had a lot of fun with that, and I'm going to turn this over to Tom real quick and follow his lead. But being on time sometimes does translate down to the clock because rudeness was my worst character defect. Imposing myself into your life without asking if you had time for me or even wanted me there or making appointments and meeting either too early or too late. It's all rude, so I watch for that. So being on time is very important in human relations. If we say we're going to do something together and pick a time and a place to do it, we should both be there at that time and place. And on time, for me, on the clock, there's a ten-minute leeway on either side of it. We live in a world that you can't get too precise. It's a principle, not a rule. Where I worked was three blocks away from a place in Denver that was built to serve people with garlic deficiencies. It was a little place called Dario's, a little Italian restaurant. And I have a serious garlic deficiency. You cured it last night. Oh, we dip the garlic in garlic dip, boy. It's so good that at lunchtime there's no place to park within three blocks, literally. That's not just because of Dario's, but that's part of it. As a result of mistreating this poor old body, I now have neuropathy in my feet. So there's days I can walk, and there's days I cannot. And one of the guys I sponsored came by to take me to lunch because I allow that. Never expected, but I sure do like it. Pay attention. Anyway, it was one of those days I couldn't walk too well. So we went over to my man, he said, this is silly, you know? You're not getting any place to park. He said, just get in the car. That's sponsor talk. Just get in the car. We drive up to Dario's, and as we pulled up, a car pulled out, and I parked right in front of the place. Now, I expect that. He was stunned. He said, my God, God got us a place to park, and I wanted to slap him. God doesn't care where I park. We were on time. That's all. And I promise you, there's a rhythm that you get into beyond your intellect that helps you to be literally on time. Both on the clock and within your personal life. And it's worth getting a hold of. So we were in New York in December. And one of the guys I sponsor in Hilton Head has a guy in Newark. and when I asked how we were going to get from LaGuardia to here, he said, he'll take you. That's sponsor time. He'll take me. John Calasanto, lovely young Italian boy, understands garlic deficiencies. So he picks us up at LaGwardia and a couple with us were staying down in the East Village and we were staying over in Brooklyn Heights. So we're going to deliver them first and we discover on the way that John's never been to the East Village. He's driving a car. And I can promise you in the East village, there's no place to park. You might as well just go on uptown. We pulled down to the corner where these people live and a car pulled out and he parked. So I told him about being on time. All weekend it was wonderful watching him be on time Then on Monday morning at 530 we were supposed to go to the airport and get an airplane. We found it in there. And we're staying at his mother's house, so she called. He somehow is still asleep. We just barely made our airplane. And he told me on the way over, he said, I got so intrigued with this business of being on time, I started managing it. Tom? Thank you for that wonderful introduction. I tell you, a buddy of mine uses the term the power of now. Boy, is that ever a powerful concept because history has no power. It has value but it doesn't have power and the future doesn't either. If I'm living in one or the other, I'm almost powerless. It's a real, real important concept of being where I am and recognizing that this is it. This ain't preparation. This is it I'd like to just sort of continue along with Ross let me ask the mic won't pick up stuff from the group will it? Okay I personally really like interactive stuff I think there's an absolute relationship between participation and value and I might make this deal with you to just selfishly get a little of that let me just make it available if you want to ask a question or make a comment and can do it in a soundbite style You know what I mean. Not a long, long question. Sometimes I'll get to listen to those C-SPAN programs, and I swear to God the question's longer than the presentation. But if you can just sort of distill it, and then what we can do is repeat it, because it is maddening on a tape to listen for an answer that's not connected to a question. It's a brilliant answer, but what's it about? And so if you would, and if you just want to make comments, same thing. Just kind of, not because we wouldn't want to hear you, but because we couldn't remember it. And just about to make it sound by style. But I would really appreciate that. Because what I'd like to kind of lead us into is continuation of this effectiveness deal. Now, I suspect that this group is essentially, I know we've got some pretty new cases here, but that's the minority. I suspect this group are people who are involved fairly heavily in the business of working with others. And there are some real tricky grounds in that business of work with others, that sometimes the harder we work, the less we get. And that old cryptic kind of comment that less is more really applies sometimes in this business of effectiveness. And so I'd like to just kind of talk a little bit more about that. And for that, I'd really like to get some interactive stuff in there if we can. Now, I have to warn you, I'm not somebody who milks a crowd, you know. So I make that offer, but it's up to you to get in. Because when I get going, it's kind of like jumping on a running train. I mean, old man. so just give me a signal or just speak up if you want to do something like that jumping ahead just a little bit to 19 that first paragraph the other one's talking about those personal qualities that sort of earn the confidence and open up the dialogue with an alcoholic. And we spent some good time last night out on the porch chasing mosquitoes and talking about effectiveness and the frustration that comes from working hard and getting in our own way. And so that one paragraph, I'll just kind of go through that paragraph with you. None of us makes a sole vocation of this work. Nor do we think its effectiveness would be increased if we did. I was sitting in a meeting last week in my home group, and we have a little spin-off group that's a big book, just a big-book discussion type thing. And there was a gal there, a fine person, who was talking about this paragraph, this statement in the context of working professionally in the field. And that's a subtle trap involved in that because there is a tremendously important difference between work that I do professionally and work that i do as an avocation in this given for free and for fun and and and so this thing here uh this i guess it was kind of an interesting case you know that i won't beat you to death with the case but this this this gal is fairly new to our group and she's got some disease. I don't know what it is, none of my business, but it has put her in a wheelchair and she is pretty profoundly disabled. And so when she was talking about what she did as a vocation in response to this paragraph, she talked about what she had done as a professional evaluator and teacher of drunk driving. I mean, I don' t think teaching drunk driving whatever they teach. I never have been through that, but thank God. But she was talking about that in the context of this business about how doing this as a vocation can interfere with our effectiveness. Let me talk about two levels of that just a minute. One is the obvious. If I can't learn to distinguish what I do professionally from what I do personally, I've got no business in that profession because I get nothing but trouble and cause nothing but grief. And I know a lot of people, I sponsor a lot of folk who have worked in treatment, and the biggest problem that happens is when folks forget where they are and forget how to distinguish clearly and importantly between the two. So, a tremendously important thing. Recovered alcoholics have a great contribution to make in that field. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But if we can't understand the professionalism of that, it's a real booger bear. And so when I'm working with somebody who works professionally in the field, part of the way that I monitor them is to listen to them in meetings. I don't need to ask them 20 questions. I listen to them in meetings. And when I hear somebody in a discussion that gets into therapeutic counseling, I know we need to go to the woodshed because it's gotten out of whack. Or if I hear, hear somebody making a talk and it's a lecture. And it happens so easily with somebody who's accustomed to doing lectures and they start doing a talk, and that lecture format comes in. And when that happens, it kills the value of the avocation, the value or the gift of this earning the trust and confidence. So it's a tremendously important thing in terms of maintaining the viability and the effectiveness. If I can't distinguish that, then I've got a lot of trouble. So it is a challenge, a real challenge. Now, I'm sure you run into, Shelly does, I don't mean to put your business in the street, but she does professional research and excellent research. But those kind of things can really steal your mind, you know, and you get to thinking analytically about what's happening here instead of the experience, feeling the experience. And so it's a tricky area. Here, the other part of that, and part of what we were talking about last night, is about the good balance that makes the recovery that I practice attractive to somebody else and that makes it effective with other people. I'll give you a couple examples. When I first got on the street and started, I had the privilege. It really was a privilege. It didn't seem like it at the time. But I had a privilege of helping start Alcoholics Anonymous, restart Alcoholics Anonymous in a fairly large city in our state. It just died. And so it was a very, very busy time. and I sponsored about everybody in town, just about everybody that was sober. There wasn't many. It was a gang, more than I could keep up with. And back then, that sponsor talk that Don was talking about was my language. During that period, my basic message to folk was get in the car and if this car is full, get in your next car. And so what we would do would be to chase around the meetings within reasonable access, meaning within 50 miles we could usually make, and run convoys. And that was really the deal. And I'm sponsoring so many people, can't even get to know all of them, much less work with them intensively. Well, then that was fine. And I'll guarantee you, if a campaign had been put out to identify the best sponsor in the known world, among those guys it would have been me. I'll guaranteed you Tom Iverson was the finest thing that has ever come along, the finest speaker in the world, the only one he'd ever had. It would have meant a hands-down victory. Well, a troubling thing happened. Two years after I went into that city and got a good strong group going, I had to move away. And all but one got drunk. All but one. Now, does that mean I was a lousy sponsor? Well, not necessarily. You know, I was doing the best I knew. I just didn't know enough. And see, what I was so busy doing was I was so busy dealing the stuff of get in the car or you sweep the floor and that I never did let them see what the solution was. You know, I never didn't get into the solution with them. All they knew is that I was wonderful and if they followed me, they were okay. Well, they would write as long as I was available to do that. But the minute I stepped back, see what I'm talking about? The effectiveness doesn't come from that kind of charismatic cheerleader stuff. It's about real solutions, real connection to their life and not just being a camp follower to me. And so even though it was well intended, effectiveness required more. And what I was saying on there earlier about being equipped not only with experience but with having real insight about myself, real knowledge about this program who has really found a solution and is able to communicate that to somebody else. I didn't quite make it that far. And so it can really interfere with getting that. I'm an extremely active member of AA, and I've had an interesting history in a way. You're talking about a young people's group. I started the first young people group in North Carolina. There were three of us. And the group still meets to this day. 38 years ago, we started that group. And so at that time, I was the youngest member of AA in North Carolina. And I thought in the whole world, because God knows, I never saw anybody like that. And a strange thing happens if you keep on breathing. I'm now the oldest recovered man in North Carol. I'm the relic of the past The only thing is That I'm still one of the most active people I've ever met And that has a real Part of what we were talking about last night That's a double edged sword That thing cuts both ways Because When you get a guy That's the oldest guy in the state That's as active as I am This can have a repelling effect on people it's not necessarily going to be a galvanizing magnet to people it can be a repellent thing and and this business of of being able to demonstrate a life that is that speaks of the solution is tremendously important and uh you know so i have to recognize that most people are probably not going to be able to take off like I do. It's important for me to recognize that we are truly different people, and we're driven by different forces. I'm somebody in my simplistic way of looking at stuff. I like to keep it simple so I can understand it. I like to think that my recovery has to match my drinking pattern if my recovery doesn't match up with how I drank I'm probably going to find it a little lacking because that's my chemistry that's the way I function that's what I do that's where I am I'm basically a kind of guy that has a lot of compulsive drive I'm not somebody who can sit and vegetate I'm somebody who Like Don said, my mind doesn't shut down for a long time. And I also have to keep in mind that a considerable amount of what I do at AA is a part of my amends structure. It's not just zeal to be a missionary. It's about a very real and effective way of making amends. and so I have to keep that in mind when I'm working with people and not try to get people to emulate who I am tremendously important because I've had so many people while we were beating around last night that I sponsored who said that they had difficulty working with me because it was intimidating it's not invigorating or inspiring but intimidating to work with somebody and it's got that kind of energy and zeal to do stuff. So when I'm looking at effectiveness, it's important for me to recognize what is effective, what's the right agenda, how do I help people achieve their potential and not conform to my model. And that's an important thing. Like I was at a prison one night, at Central Prison in Raleigh, in the Maximus Dusty Joint. And a guy came over after me. Now picture this. I'm in a MAGC custody joint. Guy comes over to the meeting. He was talking a little bit and he said, let me ask you a personal question if you don't mind. I said, yeah, anything, go on. He said, do you have to do this thing like you do it to stay sober? I said well, not necessarily. I said what are you talking about? He said I swear to God you're so busy you make me tired. I said, well, no, you really don't have to do it like I do. But I say, one thing you ought to take a look at, you're sitting in a maximum custody prison saying you don't want the kind of life I've got and I'm walking the street. I ain't swapping with you either, buddy. But it's a sneaky thing, y'all, isn't this thing of what it is that I convey to people. And if I want to be effective, It's important for me to take a look at what kind of an example that would be, what kind OF expectations do I put on the book. And does my life really reflect a kind of life that looks like sobriety is a good thing to do? And so it's not just a given that just because I've been there that I'm going to be a real effective guy. Do you want to comment about that any time? Sure. Huh? Why not? Good question. Go for it. No, I was musing and listening. We only have one thing that we're supposed to do. That's carry our message to the person who doesn't know and then whenever possible lead them on the journey of self-discovery. They'll suggest to us that any time we're approaching a new person, we should get into their shoes and see how they would like to be approached rather than me coming out of my box and laying it on the floor. 1988. I've had the privilege of serving this fellowship from the beginning. And in the mid-80s, I was your trustee at large U.S., which I thought was funny. I am not trustee material. but I was a good one. But as a result of that, we had occasion in November of 1988 to be invited by the Russians to the Soviet Union to tell them about Alcoholics Anonymous. This is a different culture, a different language, a different approach to things. There were rules in the books at the time that no more than five people could gather without a permit. There were heavy-duty restrictions. We had to consider all that. How are we going to approach these people? Now, we had taken a group of them around the United States on a 10-day trip. There's a whole afternoon story in that deal. And they told us, see, to be effective, I must be a listener. You need to tell me where you're at so I can help you move to the next place. If I try to get you to move on where I think you're in, I'm going to move you into the wrong place. It won't be any good. We asked these Russians, should we come to your country? And they said, absolutely. And here's how you do it. They said, if you come as a government mission, you're going to get a show and tell. I'll give you a KGB agent who will take you around and nothing will be accomplished he said you know us now and you know some other people and here's another list of people write us all letters and say we're going to be in Moscow on such and such a date we'd like to stop by and visit and we will confirm that Shelley's been there that's how you do business there so four of us and an interpreter were picked to spend 17 days is just sharing the AA message with these folks who we really needed to be effective. Don't want any pressure, it's just that if we didn't do the job, we're another five years from when it's going to happen. Don't put any pressure on me. Millions of lives are at stake, but don't worry about it. But we got by there because I learned a long time ago there's not millions of lives at stake. There's one. mine. And then when you show up, there's two. And that's what we're all about. So in the midst of all of that, we got a chance to try being effective. How can we approach this in a way that will... First of all, I kept saying we don't have any way to relate to God. We don't believe in God. But as we listened, and we found they were a very, very spiritual people. In fact, we had to laugh. They said, We don't have any history of God. Would you like to go see the big cathedral? Now, they were museums to them at that time, but they were just a very spiritual person. They were a spiritual people We went over our traditions with them, and the comment of one Russian was, You should have no trouble here. What you have here is communism in its purest form. see they weren't communists they were socialist republic on the way to communism there should be no problem with that in principle so we dealt with it one day at a time trying to find out how can we best serve them so they can get it going there were two events and then my comments are over I've got a whole day had taught. This was a trip beyond belief for a country boy like me. There was one tiny little group in Moscow called the Moscow Beginners Group that had been started by an Episcopal priest who was insane. Now, that's just the way it was. Somewhere he had power to move things. He got us inside the Kremlin and set things up. The guy was something else, and what he had done in setting it up was set it up according to AA's principles. Pure and simple. They operated by the traditions. There were step meetings. I remember the joy of sitting in a meeting with a Moscow Beginners group and a fellow named Sasha was talking, a former radio announcer who had lost his job because at that time if you were caught as a drunk, it was a crime. You lost your apartment, you lost your job, you went to treatment, you slipped, you Went to Siberia, you were a social deviant. You've got to know that we're not that far away from that in this country. Sasha's talking and it was really interesting because he speaks Russian and I speak English. So our interpreter who is a simultaneous translator, Sasha would say something and then Any interpreter would let us know what he had said, and Sasha would start talking again. Which gave me the opportunity since I didn't understand the language, while he's talking I can listen to what he just said and really think about that, then pay attention to what he said this time. It sounds complicated but it wasn't. He said, I had no history of God, but I wanted what these people had, meaning that small group of Russians who were not drinking anymore. He wanted what they had. So he said, I did what they did and I found a spiritual power deep within myself. And I rose to that because that's what happened to me too. He found a power here. But the main thing was he wanted what these people had. Then we were interrogated by the Ministry of Health. We weren't talked with, we were interrogated. We sat in a little room and the Minister of Health was here and the guy sitting over here in the corner like this I don't know who he was but I wouldn't mess with him. He was watching us and he was watching the Minister for Health. This wasn't a friendly environment. And this guy is interrogating us for a little over an hour. And please know that because all of us were more interested in being effective than being right we set aside our personal agendas somehow and never defended it. You never have to defend it, eh? You never have to defend who you are. I just have to share my experience. You can't fault that. You don't have to like it, but you can't fault it. At the end of a little over an hour of this interrogation, the Minister of Health said, what can we do to help you get this started here? Now, what are you going to answer? Okay, this is outside of my realm. I said, give them space. That's all we need is space. Tom and I know that the job he and I did in North Carolina in corrections was mainly about giving space. Open the doors here. Give them a little room or something. Let somebody in who knows what's going on. That's the big job. But the next day, it was Thanksgiving Day, they allowed this little group to hold a special meeting in the Ministry of Health. The other thing I meant by giving them space, and this is what I must do with people I work with to be effective, I've got to give them space to have their own experience, not my experience. You can't have mine. I need to help you create the space around you where you can have your own and that takes a little bit of time and it's very hard on me I have a human ego and I have a spiritual ego and my spiritual ego is even harder to deal with than the human ego because it has the answer and every now and then it gets to the thing that has the answer it's not a very long trip from one to the other Is it, Tom? Oh, my group. Oh, geez, protect me from that. So effectiveness is about me showing up, being willing to give them space, showing them precisely what I did. If you want what I have, here's what I do. That doesn't mean you have to do that. You may discover along the way, as most people do, you really don't want what they have. I'm like Tom I'm a busy rascal life is about living and whether I'm busy with AA or Thursday night I got really busy with my favorite activities I took my grandchildren to see the Blue's Clues stage show I would much rather watch Shakespeare but this was fun I missed Steve Steve wasn't there There's a new Steve. As you can tell, I'm also busy watching Bluetooth on TV a lot. I know exactly what Pooh's going to say. One of the ways I effectively communicate with my four-year-old granddaughter is I can say, oh, my. And she, in her tiny little four- year-old voice, says, She's like, oh my. She loves it. That's effective. The interaction of people is effectiveness. I can't do that if I'm judging you, if I'M deciding what you should have, if I' m deciding where you should be and what you shouldn't be doing. I just, I really, my hardest task is to keep that arena where we can play together and you don't have to worry about it. you can grow at your own pace there are now over 185 registered groups in Russia that took off from there the most effective thing we did was the scariest thing we done a fellow had written a book about Alcoholics Anonymous a man named Shikara good book sold out 50,000 copies overnight they were hungry did you ever get to meet him interesting guy following that kind of success with the book the Russians hold public meetings where the author and the appropriate government officials everybody who's going to have anything to say about it gets to hear from the public what the second edition changes should be that's what was going on there and we were invited to this public forum There were about 400 people, police officers, what we would call social workers, regular people off the street. Anyone who's interested in this new activity that's beginning to emerge. Very positive book, by the way, about AA. On the panel was a Russian tank commander that I had known from when they were here who was absolutely opposed to a, he said, it's just another imperialist ploy to get your way of thinking in our country. When we were in Leningrad, I understood what he was saying. We stayed in a hotel across from the great huge six-block long memorial to the siege of Leninggrad. Millions of people died. And what they're saying is never again, ever, Will any outside force come into our country and do this to us again? So I understood. That's the battle we're going to have to overcome to get an A there. So we're fighting it, and he's on this panel. He and I had fun, by the way. At the end of our trip, we got down to actually talking to each other. It turns out we could identify because we had similar jobs in the past. he used to smuggle guns into Leningrad on a tank and I used to smuggle stuff too while the goods were different the job was the same and it gave us a contact and before we were through in New York we were showing each other family pictures of course he took a picture saw a picture of my wife and he says you should go home it's very dangerous to leave such a beautiful woman along for so long a time. And he showed me a picture of his wife, and I was kind. Lovely lady, but you know, in fur and everything, it looked like a bear. I know she had to be a lovely lady. Anyway. He said to me that his concern was that he didn't want his grandchildren killing mine. I'm not killing his. We disagreed entirely on method. He really believed with adequate therapy, in a year or two, alcoholics were cured and could go on back into life. I just know better. That doesn't matter. We were joined in brotherly and harmonious action. He was wanting to let us try something because what they were doing wasn't working. And while he didn't agree with it, so there was that tone. That's being effective. When I can reconcile with you instead of trying to change you, I'm effective. See, if I sponsor you, I expect you to drink. That's what alcoholics do. The only time I've ever been surprised by your behavior is when you become a decent person. quit drinking we were at this public forum the crew knows and you know I'm glib I've had to live on my mouth since I was little so I think on my feet and if I don't have an answer I can say something cute that will keep you laughing long enough for me to figure out what I was supposed to say So I'm the spokesman for the group. Now, I've got a hostile audience of 400 people. And the trick question came at me. I've learned to listen for them. A lady said, how do you think Alcoholics Anonymous will work in the Soviet Union? Now, there's a trick question. Any answer I give is the wrong one. so I did what I've been taught to do here I opened up and waited for it and heard myself say I would be presumptuous to even have a guess, I've only been here 13 days and they applauded and made contact the truth was I had no idea but it has worked in 144 other cultures and it has work for me so to be effective has to do with taking all those kinds of risks the only risk is not taking one you can't say anything wrong to a new person they're not listening to you anyway and if they catch if they happen to be and they catch you on it later you can remind them how sick they were. Real effectiveness, as I understand it, isn't me staying sober. That's God's business and I participate in it. Nor is it me getting you sober because I don't get you sober. Real effectiveness is when I watch you after we work together go find you one. That's when I've been affected. That's the piece Bill gave us, that there were thousands who might cheerfully want what I've been so freely given, and they in turn might help others. That's when I know I've meant effective. It's when we meet second, third generation. No matter how goofy they are, it means that the job I did at least carried forward. I'll straighten up the mess later. real effectiveness means that my wife knows where I am it's effective living she's not afraid for me or for her it means my grandchildren know where I'm at where I is my four year old granddaughter I know she doesn't know what a map is but she thinks it's fascinating that I'm in Virginia she doesn' t even know what that means but I'm there about communication I've got to listen and I've got to talk because the real work will happen after I am dead and gone if I'm truly effective after I'm dead somebody like me who shows up will get the same shot I got I won't have changed anything so that it becomes unrecognizable I love you as you are where you are that's effective Chuck hated everybody including me but I didn't care I loved him he was much more entertaining than most of you and there's nothing like six weeks of solid hate to make you think this guy's really going to be good one quick story on on Chuck because it affects effectiveness. Go back to the old man. I can stretch this one out. He's going to tell a story slow. After we had finally, after a year gotten through the step work and Chuck began to emerge as Chuck we got rid of some stuff. Circumstances were such that his real father had died and left him $5,000 right at the time when he needed to make some financial amends. We got that cleared out of the way, got him a little truck, and he had some time on his hands. He'd had 180-some jobs. He was not unemployable. He just couldn't hold a job. Well, when you tell the boss, go screw yourself, they don't keep you. And he did that a lot. Anyway, he came to me one day and he said, there's one thing I didn't tell you I've been afraid to tell you because every time I told anybody this they made fun of me he said all I really wanted to be was an actor it's going to be a good one he kept me entertained for a year I mean this is a drama queen and I got to thinking I said Chuck listen you don't have a job right now your men are taken care of You've got a decent car. The other thing you've always wanted to do was go to Disneyland. He'd never done any kid stuff. That's one of the reasons he was so pissed. I said, look, you've got a couple grand. Why don't you go out to Disneyland? Take two weeks and drive out there. And I know some actors. We'll hook you up with somebody and they can tell you what the price you're going to have to pay is to become an actor. It's the price for a movie. so I hooked him up with one of the guys we know on the Murphy Brown show while he was out there he was taking him around Warners just showing him the lot and the producer of the show they ran into him on the lot introductions went on my friend said Chuck wants to be an actor the producer says hell we can use him right now we need extras so two weeks after he hits Los Angeles he's on the Murphys Brown show what's going on what's this all about he needed to expand into his own arena and all my job is is to provide him with the necessary tools whether it be step work above people the tools so he can explore that environment now he hated God got him into acting school they think he's great he really is good his first stage play in Los Angeles guess what part he got he was an evangelistic preacher and they tell me he kicked ass and took names so how do you measure your effectiveness Tom wanted some interaction. Let's talk about that. How do you know when you've been affected? What's your guide? Hey, Melissa, I'm an alcoholic. My question is, I have a question. Somebody. And maybe it's because I'm new to the program. Everyone else seems so articulate, and everybody I think of is black and white, was there trouble verbalizing how you feel instead of being articulate about how you think yes because at the beginning all the feelings felt the same panic I don't know whether I feel good or bad I do know I feel panic and how do you discuss I feel panic well you come to me and you say I feel panicked I'm terrified and I can share with you yeah some mornings I feel the same way here's what I do about it we discuss it you can't describe your feelings nor is it even important what you do is describe I'm feeling something what a surprise to be able to finally sort out we reach a place where we can't tell the difference between the true and the false yeah panic I'm starting to feel something and I don't know what to do with it what do I do with my feelings feel them you don't have to do anything process them please no processing just feeling and if you've got to cry go cry if you want to scream go somewhere else does that help any Tom would you add to that the only thing that I know I had the feeling when I came in that I was the dumbest guy in every room I sat in because I'd hear people who sounded so brilliant and healed I felt light years away from where they were And the guy who spoke at my fifth meeting of AA was the first person I had ever heard put words to how I felt. And I really, really valued that because it sort of helped me start framing a language that I could talk about the same way. Because before that, all I felt was awful and guilty and deeply ashamed and all that. But I didn't know how to describe those things. So it was helpful to me that I started hearing people put some language to it that started to make sense. You know, I always sat in meetings. You're braver than me because I always sit in meetings burning with a desire to ask questions, but I felt like it sounded so stupid. And then I finally learned that what I wanted to ask, probably the person in the next chair wanted to answer the same thing. And so, yeah, but I very much identify with that whole business of total ignorance about the condition. Some people have been through so much treatment that they sound like a medical dictionary when they come in and got a lot of language, but it may not have much to do with the condition, you know. It's just a whole bunch of language that clutters up life, you Know. and getting to a point where I can realistically understand what it is I'm dealing with. It's where inventory starts really putting stuff together, making it have some real purpose and real value in my life. But I think it is important to me. I went to my first sponsor early on and said, Bruce, I feel so guilty. He said, you should. Look at what you've done. Now, here's what we can do to straighten that up. You should. I'm so ashamed. You should be. Do you just let the chucks of the world spew their hate for six weeks, ten years? Not ten years, but, you know. Say it again. Do you say this? Do you let the Chucks of The World spew Their Hate for six or eight weeks or whatever it takes? Oh, okay. I do, yes. While they're with me in a separate space. I immediately begin to tell them, you don't want to do this with all these nice people. If that's how you feel, be quiet. We'll talk about it later. Don't disrupt these nice people. If they don't get to do that, pretty soon they get tired of it too. Yes, I do because I know about that kind of hate. If everybody keeps this out, it just intensifies it. Pretty soon we can start laughing at it. Say things like, did you hear what you just said? How do you help a new person get over intellectualizing and analyzing everything? Lobotomy is not a bad thing. Which means, Al, I've never figured that one out. Duct tape helps. I tell you, it's an awfully good defense. People can talk you to death. And it's a very good defense to keep from listening to anything. Like, I have a fairly standard rule of thumb. there's not any standards for the thing but it's a fairly standard rule of thumb when I'm sponsoring somebody I don't like to get let anybody get up in front of a group and talk until they've got about nine months making a talk if they are people who can communicate readily, it's a year and the reasoning is obvious It's just that, you know, people who are handy with communication often are not handy with listening. And it's a great way to keep from getting involved with just a verbal barrage. Same with comedy. You know, comedy very often has very little to do with humor. Anyway, I know that's the way, in a general kind of way, I deal with folk like that. It is tough with people who are highly knowledgeable about conditions but don't have them connected to their life. And I'll tell you, my least favorite person to work with is the guy who is religiously intact. But his life is screwed up like Hogan's goat. and trying to get through that cloud of righteousness to a real life connection with the Spirit is a big, big battle. And any day I'll take somebody that is absolutely on fire with hate for the whole business over somebody who sees themselves religiously intact. And it's just... I know that sounds like kind of scary ground to get into But folk who have caught into this kind of delusional notion that you're okay there, but your life's falling apart. The real deal is how do you get a real power connected to a real-life killer illness? And so it's a challenge, a huge, huge challenge. Technique-wise, because of the way I do it, meaning you come to my house, we sit down and I read the book out loud and we go from there. It helps with the focus. because I'll let you intellectualize for a couple meetings and I have to remind you you came here to learn something and so did I how are you going to learn anything if you talk 50 minutes out of the hour and so we have a way to get back into it and even if the information doesn't click the new way of doing things does and eventually the information clicks but it becomes a tool I'm like Tom I was a year before I was allowed to talk except in the 12-step study school. Couldn't chair a meeting, couldn't get up there at the podium. Does that help? No real answer, but there's some things. It's really a tough issue. It really is. Sometimes we really get injurious and like saying things like nobody's too dumb to get sober but some are too smart. That's kind of an injurious kind of way to treat folk who happen to be handicapped with a lot of education. Because it's kind of insulting in a way. Folks can't help that, that's what they got. And so in dealing with it, very important to not write them off as being sort of a wandering idiot just because they happen to be smart. And I think that thing of letting the book handle it, The deal of letting the process handle it is really the bottom line deal. Deal with the concept that's laid out here and not what you brought to the table, and it'll do it. The program will take us through it. I don't care what the barriers are. We'll open up and let it happen. But that is, you hit a real sensitive area, deep, deep trouble, as you usually do.