The Bloke He Read the Doctor’s Opinion to Thirteen Times – Dave M.

Thanks Becky, my name's Dave and I'm an alcoholic still. So the second hour, I hope everybody's had a nice lunch. The second hour I'm basically going to ask myself questions and answer them. And the reason I'm going to do that is that when I've done things like this before quite often when you have to question and answer things people get embarrassed to ask a question in a group so they don't ask or what they do is they forget what question it is they want to ask and they just end up sharing experience because you're in AA mode so they'll spend five minutes or so sharing around the question without asking the question so I think it can be most useful really if I just go through the common questions that I've been asked over the years that I have been a sponsor and maybe that answers some of the questions that people aren't able to ask themselves and then at the end of the hour we'll have a bit hands in the air stuff I know at the end of the day, there's going to be a half an hour window for people to share back. So I suppose in that sharing back time as well, if you want to, you can ask a question if you want to or tell us about the kind of stuff that you do with people you work with. So the first question I've written down is, how will I know when I'm ready to be a sponsor? That's an interesting question, because I don't think I ever knew when I was ready. I certainly wasn't ready when I became one. I didn't feel like I was ready. And probably even after three or four years of being a sponsor, I still didn't really think that I was doing it properly or that I was any good at it. So I think if I'd have waited until I felt that I Was Ready, I would never have done it. I don't think I'd ever have felt secure enough where I was to have embarked upon that journey. So, I think the reality is that most people, certainly the people that I've worked with, embark on it where you are in recovery and i think that you know like i alluded to earlier on that you know for me it was about i was willing to help i was prepared to put myself uh in the situation where i could be of help and as a result of that i thinkthat you know maybe the higher power comes into that relationship and enables me to help to the best i can at that time i think the other thing to remember is that i've never offered i'venever offered sponsorship to anybody i've always waited for people to ask so again if you're somebody that you're thinking, am I ready to sponsor? If somebody's asked you that's possibly a really strong indication that you are. Because it's something about what you're doing or the way that you Are, or the things that you are saying, that has attracted somebody to come to you and ask what is often quite a difficult question. The fear of rejection and that kind of stuff that can be around asking anybody to do anything. Specifically that. will you be my sponsor it's a difficult thing to ask I know in the early years of AA it wasn't really optional to sponsor, he was expected to sponsor immediately after he'd worked the steps and people would work the steps pretty much all the people that got sober in the earlier years of EA worked the step within a month of being sober and so they were sponsoring people at a month sober, two months sober when Ebby Thatcher went to 12 Step Bill Wilson, he was two months sober at that time so I don't think that a time period is necessarily indicative of whether your ability to sponsor or not I know that in some sponsorship lines people talk about being two years sober before you become a sponsor and I think that's often unhelpful I understand why that is because if you are going down the line of sponsorship where you're going to be managing people's lives for them or offer them advice on how to manage their life, then possibly you're never going to be sober enough to do that. So two years is kind of an arbitrary time scale. And what happens at two years? I don't know. So it happened at two year and it enables you then to become a sponsor that you didn't have before? I don' t know the answer to that. So my suggestion would be that if someone has asked you whether you are a month sober, two months sober or two years sober, that's possibly an indication that you are ready. and obviously the fears around that are kind of then the things you have to deal with but I found that the only way I learnt how to be a sponsor was by being one it's like riding a bike you learn to ride a bike through riding a bike so there we go that's the first question the second one I've got is I can't seem to find anybody to help when they look at me like that I'm willing I want to be a sponsor I can't find anyone so the first thing I'll say to that question is where are you looking? what are you doing in your recovery are you going to meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous because to me that's a very obvious place to find alcoholics and if they say well I'm going to one meeting a week I say well maybe there's a suggestion there you know if you went to more meetings a week maybe you'd come into contact with more alcoholics what are you doing in meetings how are you sharing I say well no well then how will people know whether you've got anything that they might be attracted to what are ye transmitting to your fellows are ye saying to them I'm somebody who's found a solution I can offer help is that part of the things that you're communicating when you're sharing otherwise how are people going to know if you're a newcomer you're sat in a meeting and you're thinking I need to find one of these sponsor blokes are you going to go up to a bloke who says nothing at all ever probably not are you engaging with people in the fellowship that means are you talking to people before the meeting and after the meeting? Are you asking people how they are? Maybe exchanging phone numbers if that's appropriate. You know, are you engaging in them kind of personal relationship dynamics that maybe at some point will lead to a sponsorship relationship? Often the answer is no, I'm not doing that. What I'm doing is I'm going to the meeting and I'm sitting there and then I'm leaving and I avoid talking to people because I find it difficult. so it's not that you can't find people it's about what you're transmitting as an individual are you offering that energy out for it to come back in for that to come to you I had out for a curry with a mate of mine a while ago and he's been sober a long time and he was just talking in general about our current experiences in recovery and where we are with steps and things like that and it was good you know he was having a nice time and he was saying I just don't seem to be getting asked at all at the moment to sponsor anyone I said oh really you know I said why do you think that is and he said he said well it's just where I am in recovery maybe I've kind of moved beyond where the newcomer is I said okay what makes you say that he said well because I'm not getting asked at all I said how many meetings are you going to he said only going to a couple of weeks that's not unusual and what do you do do you talk to the newcomer he said no not really not really he said the reason why I don't is that he works in a treatment centre so I work in a treatment centre with him all day long so I don' t really want to do that in the evening and I said oh right okay so what you're saying is you don't really want to do it he said yeah so you know sometimes we kid ourselves you know you can say to the sponsor the aspect of the ego for pride or whatever will say yeah of course I'm willing to do this but deep down inside you know that you're not right yeah that's only something that you can address yourself. Nobody can make you be a sponsor. Nobody can say to you that you have to do it. AA suggests it. I think our 12-step indicates it's an obligation if you want to experience AA to its fullest. But nobody can make it. So it's about that desire. Are you willing to take a chance? Are you going to surrender some of your time? Are you wanting to work through the fears about maybe not being quite good enough as a sponsor and not really knowing exactly what to do and kind of stuff like that like everybody else has had to you know there's no I'm no different you know what I mean I didn't come in take a tablet and become an automatic sponsor automatic sponsoring device trial and error working with people doing the best that you can as you go along so my experience with that question is that whenever I hear it I know it isn't the truth because I think the way the universe works certainly in a spiritual sense is that if you really want to do that and you offer that out it will come back into your life and often as a starting point that I offer to people who kind of find themselves with that block of thinking that they can't find people I just suggest to them put it in your prayers in the morning get on your knees in the evening in the early morning say to your higher power please God bring somebody into my life that I can help I'll tell you what he will absolutely guarantee it ok third question can I sponsor people of the opposite sex well the short answer is yes you can I don't think there's any any rules around that NIA I suppose there are some caveats to think about with that stuff the human beings are designed to be attracted to each other if you're heterosexual that would be to the opposite sex if you are homosexual that would mean to the same sex and if you spend long enough with people that are attractive to you of the opposite sex things can happen. Whether you intended them to happen whether you wanted them to happen they can because that's how attraction will develop when you spend time with somebody. So you have to ask yourself if you're a man and you're already in a relationship with somebody else how would that person feel about you spending time with women on their own listening to their deepest darkest secrets how does that feel? as a man with maybe long periods of recovery if you're sitting there with new women because whether you like it or not whether you Like this idea or not this is the truth as a sponsor you hold a position of power over the sponsee because they've come and asked you for help they've asked you for help to give them help they're looking up to you whether you like it or not that's what happens so if you're a man and you're sponsoring some young woman things can happen your intentions might have been great all of a sudden she's attracted to you then you're in trouble so think about this stuff before you embark along that path I've sponsored five women in my time in recovery and none for a long time my wife's sitting there you know why would I be sponsoring women when I've got a wife who can do that no need there's no need for me to do that there's no need for me to do that see the women that I have sponsored there was two of them were gay and so I didn't feel like for me that that was a problem you know so if you like that the attraction thing wasn't a problem for them because they're not attracted to me and they found it difficult to actually go to a woman because they were worried about what that would mean for their partner and the other three were people that I gave a start with the book so there were people that were in recovery who were kind of wanting to sponsor other women but didn't know how to do the book stuff in the way that I do it in the ways in the same way that's become commonplace in our fellowship actually you know it's become uncommon now people to use the big book as a sponsorship tool take people through the book and so a few years ago I took three separate women I took through the books so then they could do that with other people but I had no ongoing relationship with them three women it was just for that purpose like I say now if I know there's no reason for me to do that there's plenty of women around who can carry a message through the big books, plenty there's not reason for a man to do this quite often women will seek a man because they're afraid of the judgement of other women they don't want to sit down with another woman or have another woman come to their house in case they steal their boyfriend things like that they also know that they can manipulate men you speak to the women they don' t like you to know this but they can, they can manipulate you if you're a bit helpless then you carry heavy things for them things like that so of course you can if you choose to sponsor people of the opposite sex but consider it consider what that means there are no big I am's there is no there is not there is a burning emergency that if I don't sponsor someone that they are going to die I have not seen that if I do not do it someone else can understand so when that woman is sort of saying to you I'm really desperate and you're the only one that can help me for you blokes just that you've got a choice to make haven't you you can think well I am the big I am and of course I am not I am also the only one that can help you or you can say here's a number of a few women maybe you could ring or I can come round and see you tomorrow night and when you go take a woman with you other ways to manage and what you'll find is that when the women hook up together and they get over that stuff around a competitiveness and things like that which is slightly different to the relationships that men have I think so generalisation is that they can really form proper decent bonds with each other but they're never going to get with you if you sponsor them never for each to their own question four can I sponsor someone who is on prescribed medication. Now, the AA position on this is that whether someone's on prescribed medication is an outside issue and AA has no opinion on outside issues and that is absolutely correct. When I've been asked that question doing platform speaking and things like that in the past, that's generally the answer that I give. But more help today I think would be to think that why are some of these issues controversial in AA? Because I know AA has no opinion, it's an outside issue. Unfortunately a lot of people in AA do have an opinion about it. Again the short answer is yes you can sponsor people on prescribed medication. So why is it a problem if they are? See my opinion is that it isn't a problem. I think that some circles in AA think it is. And the idea is that if you're on prescribed medication, you're creating some kind of barrier between you and the potential finding of a higher power. Somehow the medication's going to block you from finding God. So there's no point in taking you through the steps. And then people will find ways to sidetrack that issue and rather than saying to you outright they're not going to take you through the steps, they'll say I have no experience with that. I can't take you, I've got no experience with prescribed medication so I can't take you through the steps which is a fudge what they're actually saying is I'm not going to take you through the steps because you're on prescribed medication I don't think you can recover and I'm also not going to waste my time that's what he's saying but he can't say that so it brings into controversy in AA see if there are no experienced defence was true the white person would never sponsor a black person because the white person's got no experience of being black so why would they sponsor a black person wouldn't do it would you I support Crystal Palace right used to have a poor opinion that people supported Brighton and Millwall see I've got no experience of supporting Millwall so I could say well you support Millwall I've not got no experience with that so I'm not going to sponsor you. The no experience defence is just a fudge. That's all. So why do people feel like they need to do that? And what is the issue? It's this idea that prescribed medication alters your mood. It's a narrow view. See, I've considered this over the years where I am with this. What does it mean to me? And in my earlier recovery I would sponsor people that were on prescribed medication as long as it wasn't benzodiazepine based. That was my view. See, there's two pure positions. Either you sponsor everybody, regardless, or you sponsor nobody that does anything or takes anything that is mood altering. So that second position means that if you're going to be honest about that, you sponsor no one. You sponsor nobody at all. Because the most mood alterating things in society are non-prescribed medications. There's things like sugar, gambling exercise relationships so you can argue that them things are significantly more mood altering than a lot of the prescribed medications that people take so if you're going to be honest in your position and say you're not going to sponsor people that are mood alterin you don't sponsor any of them either anybody that eats sugar anybody that drinks caffeinated drinks anybody that's in a relationship that's using that relationship to change the way they feel anybody that is having a bet on the donkeys you with me it's a fudge so I used to sponsor people other than if they were on benzodiazepines because my belief was was that benzodiazapines the sedative effect of a benzo would mean that they weren't taking in the information and then God presented me with a man who'd been on lorazepam for ten years and he said will you be my sponsor and I said yes and I took him through the program and he recovered he eventually stopped using his medication because he realised that he could find different ways of doing stuff and he did that gradually over a period of time but if I'd have said no to that man where would have been his opportunity to recover so if you say no to a man that asks you on prescribed medication are you really giving him a chance are you giving him the chance to find a higher power and are you give him that higher power a chance to work in his life see because I don't know what the outcome is going to be for any of you when everybody's asked me I don' t know what's going to happen to that man some of the people that I've worked with have gone on recreated their lives got married had children moved away had wonderful lives some people have got drunk and died and I don''t know what's gonna happen when we start so I've gone down the path now I'll sponsor everybody regardless of what medication you're on doesn't bother me none of my business and at any time in the future you want to go and address that with a doctor or whatever that's entirely up to you no pressure from me, it's your business not mine some of the people I've worked with have been on prescribed medication for all of their recovery some have given up over certain periods of time I was on prescribed meditation the first time I went through the steps it hasn't seemed to have impacted my ability to recover I seem to be ok but if a man has said to me sorry son can't do that with you I don't know whether I could have come off their medications at that time because I had no tools for living had none after I'd worked the program found some tools for living I had the ability to come off their medications different see so everybody needs to consider that I think if you've got a rigid belief about that challenge it in yourself Ask him why you've got it. Ask yourself, why have you got that? What is it about these medications that's so special? Some of them aren't mood-altering at all, they're mood-stabilising. See, some of these medications that people take for psychiatric conditions can be used for physical conditions. For a period of time in my life I was on a drug called amitriptyline which is a beta blocker for anxiety. Some people take that for heart condition. See, I know people that take medications like carbamazepine or sodium valproate which are used in the treatment of epilepsy physical condition also used as mood stabilisers for people with bipolar disorder see these medications have different usages you can't afford to have a narrow view about this you're going to be messing with people's lives two pure positions in my opinion sponsor everybody or nobody otherwise you're playing doctor moving on I have a sponsee who keeps drinking what can I do we're lighting it up a bit now encourage him to drink is one really good answer I think book talks about that doesn't it if a man's not convinced encourage him to go over to the bar room. Try some controlled drinking. I think the answer to that isn't about what you can do. If you're doing the stuff that kind of is suggested in AA and that you're offering him a kind of a solution out of the big book and you're kind of willing to do that and you've offered him some kind of suggestions around prayer and things, you've offer him that solution there's probably not a lot you can change. the answer is about what he's going to do isn't it there's one bloke I've read see I always start with people at the beginning see my experience is a lot of people get drunk in their first few weeks you know and a lot Of people in AA do get drunk they're dealing with alcoholics yeah so it's going to happen and he comes back and he says I had a drink okay that's alright that's what you're meant to do that's not an excuse let's have a look at that I'll get him to think about what it was the moment before he picked up that first drink what was he thinking? what was you thinking? the moment before you picked up that first thing and generally say well I don't really know I was thinking maybe it would be alright this time but I was just thinking fuck it I'll say there you go there's in his arm part of that insane idea winning out at that moment and I always start people back at the beginning just in case we miss something start back at the doctor's opinion there's one bloke I read the doctor his opinion with him 13 times 13 times on the 14th time I said maybe you should go find someone else say it about us two it ain't really working out I think I'll give it a fair go I never get bored reading that book so you'll only not do that if you think it's boring for you that's what it is you know well I've read that with him I don't want to do it again I'm always careful just in case we miss something we start again at the beginning and if he keeps drinking keep trying they used to be like Some of the rhetoric in AA would be around, when I got sober, around being quite punitive with people that drank. Why did you do that? And you say, I don't know. And people's response to that would be, well, that's not really good enough. You need to try harder, up your meetings and things like that. That might be true in some cases, I guess. But the reality is, if you understand what alcoholism is, or if you really understand what powerlessness is, as described in chapters 2 and 3 of a big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, any one of you could drink on any day because it's a momentary thing I have respect for that I don't have no judgement just offering some concrete suggestions around how he might enable that not to happen in the future my experience with working with people is that up until they get through them steps it's really dodgy time really dodgy the book talks about you know the freedom coming through the step 10 and 11 and 12 process coming out the back of step 9 spiritual awakening as a result of these steps I guess we can surmise from that that until that happens she's probably on risky ground which is why I'm not somebody that believes in taking too much time with working through the steps you know there used to be a culture in AA when I first got sober doing a step a year I don't know how you do that I don' t know how that works how do you work a step per year I don´t know you´ll be 12 years sober before you finish the steps yeah you know early members did it in a month most of the step work was done in a day I think three months is probably an okay period of time most of the people I work with it's about two or three months depends on how long it takes them to write the fourth step next question should I sack a sponsor who's not following suggestions so I used to go to meetings and I'd hear things from people saying the sponsor wasn't following suggestions so I give him his P45. I thought to myself, that sounds good. That sounds like the way forward. And I was working with this bloke and he wasn't following suggestions. He really wasn't. Not that I was giving him any decent suggestions really but the ones I was given him, he weren't following. you know but I quite liked him do you know what I mean he was alright we were mates really and you know and we were in the car one day driving around and he was going on and on I said well did you do what I said what the suggestions you know what I'll give you and he said nah so look I'm going to have to let you go that's what I said to him so you know you're not following suggestions there's no point I'm going to have to let you go he said what I said yeah you know alright Dave and then I dropped him off and we were driving home I felt terrible you know I thought to myself what's that about why am I feeling so bad about that. I've heard people saying that they do this kind of stuff and it's the right thing to do. And I realised that the reason why I felt bad is because I'd made that decision for him. When people ask me now if I'll be their sponsor I'm their sponsor for as long as they want me to be their supporter. He's the only bloke I've ever given notice to. never done it again and what I've found is that people who don't want to do it just stop coming round they don't ring you they go their own way I don't need to sack them I don' t need to make a point just to make a point to them so often that stuff is about control isn't it you know you're not doing what I'm telling you to do so I'm going to end this and be in control I'm disciplined with it I say to people look, I don't mind if you cancel an appointment with me but I'm busy you need to let me know in advance I'll let them not turn up once and then I'll warn them I'll say look, if you do that again my time is precious there are other people that want to do this and they respect that if you're open with them about that they understand things happen in life sometimes you can't make an appointment you get held up at work or there's things going on at home phone call just let me know that's fine so I don't sack people a phrase I've heard a few times in meetings and stuff like that is that he became unsponsorable what does that mean I don' t know he became he became unsponorable so I suggested he move on somewhere else he became unsponzorable next question I have a sponsee who is acting out on other addictions I've taken him through the steps but it does not seem to work good good question that's my experience with other addctions is that I put down the drink oh it's 24th 1998 it's the last drink I had and everything else has dripped away gradually over many years of recovery so I I had a tug from the customs and exercise about two years sober because I was importing cigarettes illegally from Spain selling them in the meetings honest program I knew it was an honest program and worked steps. See? People find this stuff in their own time. You know, I used to compulsively spend money to change the way that I felt. Loved a credit card, me. God. Great, isn't it? Great powerful thing, isn' t it? To have a piece of plastic and get you anything you want. Yeah? Marvellous stuff. Like going bankrupt from recovery. So when people say to me I want some financial advice I'll say look you're barking up the wrong tree here son yeah back back back to recovery I ended up going to Debtors Anonymous and other 12 step fellowships you see can be useful see I've worked the steps remember at this point you know I've worked the steps but I've worked them twice or something Debtor's Anonymous got some identification. Picked up some of their literature which gave me useful, practical things I could do about monitoring what I spend, recording what I spend. Empowering tools, you know. My wife hates my spreadsheet. But you know what? It stops me getting in debt. Other areas, you know, smoking. I had my tribulations with smoking in recovery after about 5 years 6 years sobriety I put it down after several failed attempts at stuff in and stuff like that and it just came because I became so sick of it so sick I reached a point where I had to surrender had to surrender sex and pornography and things like that before I was married huge problem for me Massive problem. I'm never faithful to anyone. And if I was faithful to them, I was using pornography as well instead. So that's not being faithful. Because I'm pretending all the time, trying to fix myself. I never went to SLA and stuff like that, but my current sponsor gave me some things to do around that. An extended inventory process that I had to go through. Generated enough awareness about myself for me to be able to take that truth to my higher power and surrender and become free from that. So if he's if you're a man that you're working with if you've got a woman that you work with who's engaging in these other things that happen you know all these kind of what we call secondary issues don't we food and things like that you know encourage them to seek other fellowships you know just encourage them because it's normal actually lots of people who are non-alcoholic non-drug addict engage in that kind of mood altering stuff and the point where we will change is when it becomes either insufferable for us to continue to do it or we become aware enough to be able to do it it's my experience you know Myers tells a great story doesn't he about his thing with topless bars and there just came a day where in America there are loads of topless bars and there came a day where he just couldn't even cross the threshold he took a step in and he just felt freezing cold he took another step back out and he was alright and it is like that there comes a day where it shifts make use of the tools that are on offer maybe you don't want to go to 101 different fellowships but literature is available for all fellowships I find that knowledge is immensely empowering knowledge is often underrated in our fellowships we talk a lot about experience strength and hope but it's knowledge that often will be the catalyst for change for me knowledge gives me understanding through knowledge and understanding I can change I can surrender and change none of my sponsees are staying sober am I doing anything wrong? possibly you might be he might not be and again that's part of the individual journey as a sponsor is to question ask that question alright you know it's not see I think that asking open ended questions of myself has been one of my greatest teachers in recovery just just to question myself and sit with it not provide an answer immediately just to ask is it possible that there's something more I could be doing and sit with that see what comes just see if they keep drinking it's probably because they're an alcoholic controversial I know are you willing to help are you offering them a solution that's kind of grounded in this stuff not your own opinions because if you're giving them some other version of recovery then it could be your fault and you have to own that so if you're somebody that goes to meetings and says to blokes just don't pick up the first drink one day at a time if you are one of them people that do that God bless you but you could be responsible for people believing that they can do that trying to do that and failing see the true alcoholic the real alcoholic as described in our book he cannot rely on choosing not to drink he might be able to for a period of time but he can't rely on it because at some point there'll come a moment a time where he'll have no effective mental defence against that first drink he'll be unable to bring into his mind with sufficient force the memory of the suffering of even a week or a month ago and he'll pick up a drink as though it's the most natural thing in the world powerless and if you're telling him that he isn't then possibly you're causing him harm. Because if he's powerless and you're telling him, just don't do it, it's not really helping. So although I forgive myself, and I know the people that I work with forgave me for kind of not really knowing what I was doing when I was first a sponsor. And I made amends for taking a lot of them early blokes back through the work later on. Things like that. I never said that to them I was always trying to offer them a spiritual solution I didn't imply they could just do it if they really tried hard they could not drink if they tried hard you'll hear that in meetings you'll have sponsors that will promote that so it might well be their fault that people drink I'm glad I don't have that on my conscience I have a sponsee who is very demanding of my time what can I do and that's the bloke that you think maybe the P45 comes in handy now but all things in recovery it comes back to you you've allowed him to do that you've made you've allowed that to occur some people want to see you every week sit down and have a counselling session with you that they don't have to pay for. Yeah? Which might be great for them, but I don't want to hear it. I haven't got time. So I set my stall out at the beginning and I tell them I don' t offer that. When you ask me for sponsorship, I do not offer counselling. What I offer is a journey through the big book of alcohol, it's an anonymous 12-step recovery plan. You want to counsel and find somebody else there are sponsors that offer that you know they like doing that do you know what I mean it's part of what they do and it's up to them nothing to do with me but I don't want to do that and I learnt that through having people that wanted my time all the time and because I'd never given them the boundary at the beginning it was my fault that I'd allowed that to happen some people are very good at it they're very very good at drawing you into their drama it takes a lot of discipline as a sponsor if you want to kind of keep your time yeah I like watching football and I don't like things encroaching on that time so it takes a lot of discipline you know without being rude to people to kind of enable them not to do that to you see one of the things I've realised over the years that I've been sponsoring people is quite often when they're new they're just confused right they just want to talk a lot you know and if I thought it would help them to talk to me a lot I'd facilitate that but what I've realised is the best use of the time they have with me is to take them through the programme that's what they've asked me for and so sometimes they come round and they say I've got this, this and this going on and you can see they want to explore all that stuff you know and I say look I know that that's difficult at the moment but what we need to do is get through this work because I know and once they get through that work they start to see a lot of that stuff differently anyway a lot the stuff that they think is a real problem doesn't become a problem anymore it's really not an issue the way that they see the world the way they perceive things as difficult the way their people as being difficult can change as a result of working these steps I know that they don't yet so I politely just redirect them all the time to what we're supposed to be doing you know I might have like a ten minute kind of catch up whilst we're making the tea you know and then we sit down and we open the book discipline with it I had one bloke he was a past master sponsored him for a long time and he'd come round on like an excuse you know anything really or he'd have one opening sentence about how are you you know and so you'd say yeah I'm normal alright not too bad and then he'd talk for an hour sometimes it's easier said than done but again you have to manage them things in the end if you don't facilitate that they will go somewhere else or they change so anybody is welcome at my house that I've ever worked with or even those that I haven't you know if you're in real trouble relationships gone tits up lost your job you know serious illness things like that these stuff happens in life don't ever feel like you can't come round and have a cup of tea and a bowl of ice cream with me because you can alright but if you want to come round once or twice a week for an hour and tell me about your week and your resentments bark it up the wrong tree so it's down to you how do you set up the dynamic with people in the beginning next question I have too many sponsees now who keep ringing me up for inventory I have no time on my own question for those who may be in late recovery, been around a while things like that it could be a problem you know we talk in step 10 about sharing things immediately talking step 11 about doing nightly reviews and things like that ongoing inventory processes and quite naturally when people are new they've gone through the program with a sponsor feel like that person knows them that person knows where they're coming from and so that's the person that they need to share this stuff with it's a normal thing to go through that I used to think like that I need to show I need you to share this stuff with somebody who knows the background needs to be my sponsor he's the only man that knows everything so that is the man I need him to share it with and as a sponsor if you facilitate that on an ongoing basis eventually you will end up in a situation where you have no time for yourself because you will be taking ten phone calls every night from people wanting to share their day with you becomes unmanageable doesn't it so I always encourage people you know I accept that for a period of time they will be reliant on me but my job as a sponsor isn't for them to be reliant on me that isn't what this is about that's not what we're supposed to do see what I'm supposed to do is show them how to find God and when God shows up in their life that's who they've become reliant upon there can be a gradual eking away because whether you like it or not if you sit down with somebody with a book and you go through that process with them and they tell you their whole life story and you're involved in their amends process and you kind of help them with all that stuff there's going to be a bond, an attachment and he's goingto be a little bit dependent on you whether youlikeit or not that's what's goingt happen and there are friends of mine in recovery who kind of stick to a traditional kind of AA route like it was in the early days and they see that as soon as that bloke's through them steps, they sever. Send him on his way. Perfectly valid approach. But it's not what I do. Feels a bit harsh to me that. You know, just to say that we've done this discreet piece of work now you're on your way. And so I gradually eat come away. You know I might listen to a few phone calls of inventory and things like that and little by little I'd just be suggesting to them about finding some people close to them that they can share with in my sponsorship lines we call it the immediately people find yourself a couple of immediately people people that may be at the same stage as recovery as you understand where you're at people that maybe go to the groups that you go to or you can just have an agreement between the three of you or the four of you or whatever it is that when there's something going on a burning resentment that needs to be one of your people that you're in and little by little I teach them this stuff to move away from me I teach them about becoming reliant upon the tools and the higher power not on me yeah and as a result of that I don't have ten people ringing me up every night with their inventory if I'm still inviting that into my life it's because in some way shape or form I want to be in control of their recovery understand that I'm saying that I'm the person that understands you and I'm the person that has to be rung and while we're allowing them to become independent I create dependency my view on that is that isn't healthy for them nor me so I'll go down this other path I've got about ten minutes left I think of this session what time are we finishing this back quarter past ok so we'll maybe take a couple of questions from the floor if there's any Ben just related to the question about people engaging in other people's behaviours or taking up other people I'm not sure it's there is with other people using what we call I'll say something I think there's an obvious answer is that you shouldn't sponsor people who are taking drugs but if you're going to go down this road of sponsoring everybody then that's not an option so what I tend to do is I will sponsor them and at some point they'll realise that what they're doing doesn't suit and they leave or at some time at some moment they stop but what I do is if I start the process so the early chapters take a few weeks the way that I do it and so you're not kind of getting into the nitty and gritties and stuff like that until a few week down the road and during that few week period either they drop out generally I find or they or they stop you know and I think that I will share in a general way about how this has been a clean program for me and I don't think that if I'd continued to deliberately use stuff to change the way that I felt in that way then I would have been able to recover a lot of this stuff around mood altering is about intention so prescribed medications I don't have a problem I'll sponsor anybody who's on medication it's really not an issue for that person in terms of what it means for them will often depend upon their motives for taking it so if you're an individual that is taking anything deliberately to change the way that you feel because you're unhappy with your current circumstances that will be a barrier for your recovery it might not be a failure of finding a higher power but it will be a barrier to your recovery because you're not willing to address the here and now. For somebody who's taking it because they believe it's treating something for them and they're taking it as a prescription and it's kind of like that it's the same behaviour isn't it in some respects you're still taking the medication but the effect for the individual is very different. So for a man who might be dependent upon heroin for example or a methadone script if he's on that because he's addict and he can't withdraw because he goes into a turkey and he Can't quite cope with that and he needs to do something about that at some point probably but it's probably not deliberately changing the way that he feels you know in the same way that somebody who may have been abstinent from heroin for a long period of time then goes out and gets a hit yeah because he's unhappy with his life and he wants a hit so I think that's broadly where I am I would sponsor people I do sponsor people but I make it quite clear that for me this has been a clean program but it is up to them you know and quite often I've found I've sponsored quite a few blokes who have been smoking marijuana they call it marijuana maintenance in the room, don't they? I mean, I didn't know this, but apparently AA is quite a good place to come to school marijuana. I didnít know that. But you know, they go a different way generally. I mean I donít know anyone, I donít think thereís anybody that Iíve worked with you know youíre probably talking about a couple of hundred people really that I have sponsored over the years you know to certain varying degrees I don't know anyone who's got through the work whilst using street drugs they've either stopped at some point or they've bailed out is that right? Tino do you sponsor everybody you ask to sponsor them do you ask people to wait because you can't sponsor everybody at the same time or do you suggest other men that you know, or doyou do a combination yeah, a combination I think the reality of life, right, is that I have other responsibilities and things. You know, we've got four children. I work full time. I like watching football, you know. And I go to AA, you Know, and life's about balance, isn't it? And I have a certain amount of time I can give up to people to do that work with. And what happens when you start to do things like this, you know, so you're the speaker in AA and all that kind of stuff, you know you get a lot of people that ask you you come almost like they see you as a solution like if you're the sponsorship speaker in AA then you must be the best sponsor so I want you so I get asked a lot by people and the reality is you can't take everybody so I'll only work with a certain number of people at any one time currently that's one person at a time just because of the way my life situation is when when I was newly sober I'd be sponsoring five, six, seven people in the book at the same time no problem at all you know it depends on where you are with your life I think again it's about this thing around intention so if you deliberately make decisions to avoid an opportunity for surface based on selfish motives and needs that's probably not going to help you in the long run right if you're genuinely making decisions based on your current life situation and what's best for all of them things in your life then it's probably ok yeah at the end of the day there's only you can only be genuinely unselfish by accident that's my experience you know if I we talk about being unselfish in AA don't we working with others and we're doing all that kind of stuff but see I know there's something in it for me see when I work with others I know there's a deal in that for me it's about getting out of self and experiencing that in my life the flow of the spirit that comes back through giving so I know I'm getting something out of it so it's not entirely unselflish I can only be unselfdish by accident so I'm walking down the road somebody pulls over in the car and says to me Dave can you give me directions to so and so and I haven't planned that and I hasn't expected it and I'll get a choice I can either give him my time send him give him some directions or just say I don't know mate walk on yeah so it's an unselfish act if I give him the time because I haven'T planned it see anything we plan has a selfish aspect so don't give yourself a hard time if you're finding that you know for me it's been about learning that at times I've had too many people and I've sold them short that's the truth of that you know if you've got too much going on in that area of your life with sponsorship you'll give them a bit of a short deal you know because you're always thinking about the next bloke that's coming round all the other priorities in your life that you need to manage and get done you know and at times I've probably had too few you know where I've had an over significance on going to the gym or something like that you know which is a really useful thing to do and going to The Gym is really great and you know I enjoy going to The Gym but it's not my primary purpose. Is that all right, Tina? Thank you. Bec? Bec, I'm a chronic patient. A couple of weeks ago I took a 12-step call and basically the lady, it's from Ted's guy, come out to meet him. So I've been to the chapter where I could she's desperate for a detox, but she can't get one through her GP and I've had no experience with detox. And she keeps ringing me and obviously I wouldn't be helpful and it is getting to the point now where I kind of feel as though I mean obviously she's always struggling, what would your advice be in that sort of situation? I think the reality is that for a lot of people, it's a struggle to get sober. We can talk about being sober now almost matter-of-fact, but the journey into becoming sober can be very, very difficult. I had several detoxes at home and things like that before I finally got to a point where I became sober. So as a sponsor or as a 12-step person how do you manage that? Again, knowing your boundaries. It used to be when I first got sober a lot of the old timers would just tell people to stop but I think that most people now we have a general awareness that often that isn't a useful thing to do it can be potentially dangerous what I've done over the years is a number of different things so there's been people that we've helped taper off so you basically sit there with a bottle and you feed them alcohol in decreasing amounts over periods of time until they're no longer taking alcohol but you've got to have the time to be able to do that sometimes we've done that with people as a group so there's been like three or four of us that have done that with one person, we just do it in shifts other things that we've done is that we go to the GP with people so rather than them going on their own to the DP drunk and saying to the GP I want a detox and the GP's thinking no way I'm giving you any tablets you go and have a conversation with the GP yourself and I guess because of my background I'm able to do that maybe a little bit more effectively or confidently than some people can but I've many times sat with the GP and they're saying, well we don't do prescription detoxes. I'll explain to them, I'll say look someone's going to be with him all the time, he's not going to have access to the medication, we're going to administer that and as soon as there's any signs of any difficulty we will take him to the hospital or bring him here and if he hears that he's quite often, my experience he will write you the script, it's a five day detox script and then you can just administer that as it says on the prescription and again we've done that with groups of people and things like that And, you know, taking it in turns and shifts. You know, get a few blokes around with some DVDs whilst the bloke's shaking the alcove out of him in the corner, you know? Things like that. And you can do that, and it's very rewarding stuff if you can't do that. There's a degree of organisation you need to have and support from your fellowship. It's possible to do it on your own, but quite often I know your particular life circumstances means that you wouldn't be able to do that Outside of that, there's not much else you can doing. you know the inpatient services are often over subscribed and things like that but you can show them how to access that and the other thing that I have done I did take one bloke I just took him to the A&E I said you need to detox him they said we don't do that here I said well I'm leaving now he's yours they said well you can't do that so that's what I'm going to do I'm telling you what his condition is he's an alcoholic he's withdrawing from alcohol and unless he gets some medication he's going to have a seizure see ya they have to treat no choice but you don't win many friends at the A&E if we're doing that and I'd say that's really your last resort and normally they'll only keep them in for a night only for one night so you probably you have to go and pick him up the next day. But they discharge him with a prescription, which is what you want. Is that all right? My name's Peter, I'm an alcoholic. I'm enough. So how do I get a sponsor? If I want to be sponsored, how do you work it out? How do you get a sponcer? There are a number of ways to get a Sponsor. All of them involve asking. so the general route is that you'll hear somebody or see somebody in a meeting and you think I quite like what they've said I quite love the cut of his jib or you just might think he's got a nice beard and say actually I'd like you to be my sponsor Jeff and say things like that it's the asking thing really, the vast majority of people in AA and recovery will want to help you, part of the recovery we program is that we give so that we can receive so you know but the caveats of time and availability apply so if somebody so if you used to ask me today I wouldn't be able to do it you know I'd say actually at the moment I can't because of this this and this and sometimes that rejection can be difficult but just ask somebody else and eventually you'll find somebody who will say brilliant bring it on come on then let's get some work done yeah and it's great yeah so that's there's a plan now one more and then we finish any more do you think there's any benefit to changing a sponsor if you've been in recovery while being the same sponsor for a while for a few years is there any benefit to changing or is there a particular reason to change or is it good just to change to get a fresh perspective would you take that person through the programme again I think the short answer is yes I always encourage people to seek a new experience so sometimes it might mean that you end up asking somebody and actually they've got very different views to you and you can't reconcile that and it hasn't really worked out when that happens but asking in and of itself is an act of humility so what you're saying to yourself is that I'm prepared to have a new experience and learn more. One of the things that my sponsorship line work with is a set-aside prayer. God help me to set aside what I think I know about these steps, this programme, and you. I think that act of asking for a new teacher, a new spiritual teacher, can be indicative of that, really. So it can be very dangerous when you've been around a while and other people start to think that you know a lot and then you start to thinking yourself that maybe you know allot and so it can be really useful then to kind of take a step out of that and find a new experience so I think the short answer is yes obviously don't think that there's anything to lose and if you end up going back to the old sponsor that old sponsor is probably going to be alright with that for some of the folks I've worked with over the years get fired up from some speaker that they're hearing, go and have an experience with that speaker, maybe go through the steps in a slightly different way or something like that and maybe a few years down the line give me a phone call again and say where are we now and see where I've moved on to and maybe there's some other stuff we can do together and that's the work in progress that we all are everybody's shifting and changing hopefully ok thanks everybody did you need to do any announcements just to let everyone know that we're going to have 15 minutes to get back to you in a moment thank you very much Thank you.