Stopping the Festering Through the Act of Direct Amends – Johnnie H.

I guess so. Well now that we've gone through four, five, six and seven, where we are in the book Alcoholics Anonymous on page 76 is now that we need more action. That's what we find that faith without works is dead. So up to this point we've been talking about a lot of faith. Let's look at steps eight to nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and whom do we want to make amends. We made inventory. Where's the list? Some of them burned it. Really, I mean hid it away or put it under the mattress or something. So now we got to make another list. Now we've got to have double jeopardy here. But from here on, particularly in the next two steps, Alcoholics Anonymous, Steps 8 and 9, these are the steps that will bring you freedom. These are the step that will allow you to walk down the streets in the world and not have to worry about who's coming at you. These are the steps that will allow you to sit in your home when there's a knock at the door, try to jump out the window. These steps will allow you to pick up the telephone when it rings and answer it. And these are the steps that would do all the things that will bring complete and absolute and total freedom. Because it's amazing to me that one of the main things that sticks out in this part of the book, it says that our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and to the people about us. That's the main purpose here. That what Alcoholics Anonymous and the Program of Recovery is basically all about us to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and to the people about us, which is, according to that priest who used to talk to Papa, the highest order that a human being can ever attain in the service of life. And it also cautions us about going out to make these amends, this list of amends. I made a list, and I did a lot of them, but there's a lot of amends, some amends that you can't make. I was responsible for the death of my 17-year-old brother in 1951, and I didn't know how to make that amends. I didn' t know how to make amends for that act that I did. And my sponsor told me very simply, he said, well, why don't you write a letter? And I said, to who? And he said, well, write a letter to him. And I did. Then what do I do with it? He said, then mail it. He said just put his name on it, put any goofy address down there, put in a return address and put it in the mailbox and mail it and say to him everything. Say to him everything that you would say to if he was standing right here in front of you. So I did that. and I didn't get any real that was the number one thing on my list was my baby brother if there was anything in the world that drove me to the bottom of the barrel or to the point of absolute and total despair which was one of the prime reasons that drove be insane was the knowledge that I'd killed my baby brother because it had been my opinion and it always had been that, and probably it even is today, that my baby brother was probably the only thing in this world that I ever cared about in my life prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous. And when my mother screamed at me through the visiting screen in the county jail that time that I was a murderer and I had to stand outside that grave handcuffed between two detectives while they buried him it's a good thing I didn't have a gun or I'd have blown my brains out at that moment. And I didn' t know what to do about this because this thing came out of my inventory and it stayed there and it was a nightmare that wouldn' t go away from me and even after I'd been sober for a couple of three years it wouldn' d go away form me and that's when I went to Norm and asked him, God, what am I going to do about this thing? I can' t get rid of this deal. And he told me about writing that letter and so he gave me a little exercise that I do every year, Christmas time I get up and I go out to the cemetery where my baby brother's buried and I clean away the debris on his grave and his home, so I put flowers down there and I stand under the same tree that I stood I ended up between those two detectives in 1951 while I buried him. And I get down and I say a little prayer and ask him for his forgiveness. And I get up, and that was really a hard thing to do and over the years it's gotten a little better because in that same cemetery now is my children's mother and buried next to my baby brother is my mother. And so now I go out there every Christmas and when I get through with that little detail I go down to the mission and I have bagel and orange juice and coffee with my sponsor and I spend the rest of the day serving dinner to all the people until the last one is fed down there. I do that every Christmas That's my Christmas exercise for you. And sometimes I go out there, and the remorse and guilt is so heavy on me, Nina down at that grave, and that picture of standing around that gravesite looking at my mother and my brother, older brother, is almost overpowering. What I've learned in my amends to my baby brother is that the best way I can make amends to my brother is to try to help other people that I have adopted as my baby brothers. my willingness to do for them most anything that I can, and to be available at them from all time kind of takes some of the sting out of it. But there are some things in life that when you've taken another human life, particularly somebody who's very close to you, it's very hard to just shut that off. very hard to forgive yourself of it. But you can. You know, it's not the only thing like that that I have ever done because I lived out there in them streets and ran in them gangs and did a lot of things like that even worse than that probably. But this thing is uppermost in my mind. But it has gotten better over the years and long about this time every year. It's coming up Christmas again, and I'm going to have to go out and relive this whole scenario all over again but as it has every year since then in the last four or five months of my life I have been deluged and practically overwhelmed by a number of young people who have come to me and asked me to sponsor them and take him through the steps and so just you know once again what my sponsor told me 37 years ago 36 years ago that it's come true you know you do the best you can with it you may not ever get over it but you can live with it and it will be easier times and harder at other time the last name on my list in my list of amends took me 12 years to accomplish that and that was my father I hated my old man I hated him with a passion that you would not believe and the last time I saw my dad prior to coming to Alcoholics Anonymous my grandmother had locked me up in Menninger's clinic in Topeka Kansas for some type of a miracle cure and I was laying on his bed and my father come to visit me and I spit in his face until him to get out of there and I thought for a long time in my head that was because I hated him so much but in my inventory writing out my inventory I found out that the reason I spit at my father and told him to get out of my room was not because I hate him so much was because I was so ashamed of what I had become that I didn't want my father to see me 128 pounds or bright yellow strapped down on that bed in an insane asylum and so to protect myself from my shameless in my fear I did the only thing that I naturally did all my life prior to come at Alcoholics anonymous. I attacked, see, I attacked that which I'm fearful of to disguise my own fear. And so when I was 12 years sober, my wife and my two little children, my daughter, the one who was born to me while I was in the penitentiary, and my youngest daughter, and I got in a car and drove halfway across the United States to the little town that I was born in, in Kansas, with an address that my mother had presented me with. And that was where my father was supposed to be. We got down there, and it's ironic because the address was a bar or a beer joint in a little town in Kansas. The name of that bar was Johnny's. I thought, God, this is karma or something. I don't know what it was. And so I walked around. There was a little, I don't know, four or five little apartments, one-room apartments were kind of run down and shabby back there at his address, and it wasn't that. So I went in the bar, and I said to the bartender, I said, I'm looking for a guy named Roley Harris. Is he in here? And he said, yeah, he's sitting down there at the end of the bar. And I looked down there and there was this little derelict sitting down there in a bar. And early in the morning he was having him a beer. And what's important about that is that we were camped out in Topeka and we drove the 30 miles down to this little town. And the closer we got to this Little Town, I started to get sick. I started – my stomach was upset and my head started to ache. and it was, it felt like I was going to explode and I was gonna throw up at any moment. It got awful and I didn't know what it was and the closer we got to this little town the more violent it became and the more I thought, I never got sick but I kept thinking in my head I thought it was gonna blow off the top of my head and I walked in and saw this barn I walked up to this guy and I said Dad, I'm your son Johnny and I came all the way from California to introduce you to your grandchildren and he looked at me and he says You want a beer? I said no dad shortly after the last time I saw you I joined a bunch of people called Alcoholics Anonymous I don't drink anymore and so what we did we put him in the car and we drove around and my wife in the back seat and myself and he sat around and wandered and I was telling him I said you know I want you to come to California with me I want your grandchildren and see my brother's children and you've never seen any of your grandkids. Let me take care of you, you know. He's nice to take me back where he found me. Real breath, and I said, okay. So I took him back and I dropped him off. He got out of the car, gave him a picture of me and the kids. And then he took it and wandered off and went into that little barn. And I still feel like I'm violently ill. And as we got on the freeway and started back towards Topeka, my headache eased and my stomach settled and it was almost like I'd had an exorcism or something and all that poison of years and years and years of hatred had just been taken away from me and from that moment to this very moment and that's been 20-some years now. I have never used the word hate to describe something that I don't like or towards anybody else. That word has been almost completely eliminated from my vocabulary and a description of my feeling towards people, places, things, or circumstances or conditions. such is the great miracle of cleaning up the wreckage of your past that was the last name on the list now there's been amends that I've had to make since I've been sober as a matter of fact when I was here a year ago and you got a chance to attend your group and spend some time with some of you. I was in the process of cleaning up some unfinished business. Things that I had done, some names that I needed to make amends to and one next wife and another next girlfriend. I felt that I need to reestablish and cement my relationships with my children and my grandchildren. I don't know what it was, but I just felt the need to do all that. And so I spent, when I was here last November, a year ago I was smack in the process of doing all that, and it was getting close to this time of year again, so I thought I'd better get as fit as I could to go out to that grave site. And I did those things. I went home and I made the amends and wrote the letters and made the conferences and sat down with my ex-wife and my ex girlfriend and explained to them my role in the situation and how sorry I was and if there's anything I could do to make amends to them I'd be glad to do it in any way that I could I made an attempt to go see my oldest daughter who has three of my grandsons we've been estranged for a long time because for whatever reason she doesn't like me or thinks I like my younger daughter better or whatever her mind is. She's not alcoholic, so I don't know what the hell she's thinking half the time anyhow. So it's one of them strange people, you know, and just – but I made an attempt to do that. I established my relationship. I went to one of my grandson's weddings. It was a whole bunch of things like that, and I got established with my youngest daughter and my little 8-year-old grandson, and it was just really a thing, and I've got real, real, really current in life. and I turn around and Jesus, you know, just is an amazing thing. Right at this moment I'm absolutely and totally current in every affairs of my life. I understand the promises that Alcoholics Anonymous has to offer you. I've understood them for a long time because they've happened to me. Every single one of the promises happened to him. The amazing thing about this thing called Alcoholics Anonymous to me is the myth of what goes on in Alcoholics Anonymous is almost staggering sometimes. You know, people talk about the promises but the promises do not come until after the ninth step. It says here it says here on page 83 there may be some wrong we can never fully write. We don't worry about them if we can honestly say to ourselves that we would write them if we could. Some people cannot be seen. We send them an honest letter. That's what my sponsor made me do with my baby brother. I couldn't see him. And there may be a valid reason for proposing such cases. We delay it if it can be avoided. We should be sensible, tactful, considerate, and humble without being servile or scraping. As God's people, we stand on our own feet we don't crawl before anybody that means I don't go out and make amends and try to justify my actions I said well you know the reason I did this because I was sick some bitch now I had this delays and it made me crazy no I go out make amens because I owe the amends it's not a set of circumstances. I'm not trying to justify my actions in any way, shape, or form. I'm trying to establish that I'm truly sorry for my actions and I would like to repair the damage that I have done through my actions. There's no excuse for my behavior. You know, I can't blame alcohol for it or my alcoholism or nothing. I'm supposed to be doing these things because as God's kids, I stand on my own two feet and I'm tying to repair the damage to make an amend is to rectify a fault it's to overcome it's not to say I'm sorry you know I wouldn't tell somebody I'd make an amend and tell them I'm Sorry and say yeah you are you're the sorriest so and so I've ever seen in my life for Christ sakes now get out of my face oh I was devastated I thought they were supposed to throw both arms and say oh you wonderful person It doesn't work that way. But you've got to be willing to accept that. Amends is to right a wrong. If I have wronged somebody, I should try to make it right. And I should ask them how I can make it right to them. I should not go and say, I'm going to make this right because I'm gonna do this. I'm gunna stay sober. and that'll make the right that'll overcome no I make amends this way I have wronged you there's no excuse for me wronging you I just wronged you I'm sorry that I did what can I do to make it right that's an amend and then I have to accept whatever answer that it is that they give me and try with some dignity to fulfill whatever it is they ask me to do if it's not too goofy. You know what I mean? If it's too outstanding. But I've never had anybody tell me how to right a wrong that I have done to them that has been so outstanding that I didn't know what to do. You know, it's amazing. But I have to do it because I don't want to have to go sit somewhere. You know, I sit in a meeting every Monday night right behind my ex-wife. I shake hands with her. I hug her. I wish her well. And I sit right alongside of my new wife. She understands that. She doesn't like it, that she understands it. And it's an amazing thing. There is nothing between us because I have righted the wrong because when I tried to make amends to her and offered to make amends for her or I asked her what I could do to make it right. And she told me. So I did it. It's amazing. It's absolutely and totally amazing. Absolutely. My children, I have a great relationship with my youngest daughter and my youngest grandson. It's amazing. My oldest grandson calls me every once in a while. My number two grandson called me and told me he couldn't go into service because he tested positive marijuana that really was a happy day of my life I'll tell you that but let me let me read you some promises that have come true in my life it says we are pains taking about this phase of our development we will be amazed before we're halfway through. We are going to know a new freedom and a new happiness. We will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it. We will comprehend the word serenity, and we will know peace. No matter how far down the scale we have gone, we will see how our experience can benefit others. That feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear. No need for Prozac there, baby. The depressions have been listed. Self-pitty has disappeared. We will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in our fellows. Isn't that amazing? We will lose interest in selfish things and get interest in our fellows. Self-seeking will slip away. Our whole attitude and outlook upon life will change. Fear of people and of economic insecurity will leave us. We will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle us. And like one of the questions ever asked before, we will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves. Isn't that amazing? We will suddenly realize that God is dealing for us when we can. Look around you in this room. nobody in this room is able to stay sober on his self by himself under his own willpower yet god is doing for us what we cannot do for ourselves right at this moment no matter what stage of the development or how far into this program of recovery we've gotten at this moment some of us are weeks over some of us are months over some obviously many years sober and all in between yet we can't stay sober of ourselves and by ourself yet god is doing for us what we can do for ourselves so the promises are being fulfilled to us no matter how far down the road we've gone our experiences can benefit others see what i mean that's what it's all about well what's the experience my experience of gaining freedom and happiness and joy as a result of doing these things no matter How Far Down This Tale I've Gone Drunk and Sober can benefit others. That's the experience. My sponsor told me that we share our experience, strength, and hope in Alcoholics Anonymous. That's all we got. Without the experience, we have no strength, and without no strength we have not hope. Without strength here there is no hope. And what we have to install in newcomers and people around us is hope, that there is hope here. One of the first things I saw in Alcoholic Anonymous I didn't understand, even though I had no hope other than endless days of this hell that I lived in. I knew that these people who came to me on Sunday morning at those meetings believed in something. I did not know what it was. I didn t have a feeding glimpse or an idea about what it was they believed in, but they believed something because of their actions and what they did. You could see that they believed is something because nobody would do what they did if they didn't believe in something. It was an amazing thing to me. It says, are these extravagant promises? We think not that we'll be able to fulfill the Bhanga sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but they will always materialize if we work for them. Now I don't know what much more that anybody, any human being who live the life that we've lived could ask out of anything more this is promised to everyone there are no special people who get this because they're more special and people who don't get it they'll always materialize if you work for them Papa used to say if you're not surrendered when you come to alcoholic phenomenon if you work the first nine steps of this program recovery to the best of your ability they will surrender you these steps will surrender but you got to work them they won't surrender you if you don't work them you cannot have a spiritual waiting as a result of steps you don t take really you can't have promises fulfilled in your life if you haven't worked for them. It's an amazing thing. It says in a book on page 83 that the spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it. We have too. Unless one's family expresses their love upon spiritual principles, we think we ought not to urge them. We should not talk incessantly to them about spiritual matters. Our behavior will convince them more than our words. we must remember that 10 or 20 years of drunkenness would make a skeptic out of anybody. It's amazing. I see my astute student there busy writing questions out for me to salivate over. But that's it to me. That's the first nine steps of our program recovery. That's my experience in them, And that's, it's, if you're not involved in anything, I'll tell you a story. I told the story to some guys around the breakfast table because it's really important to me. I just, because there's been so much of a help to me in this last year. Oh, a few years ago, there were a couple of strange-looking people came to our group. they were funny they had earrings and chains hanging around one guy had purple hair you know he kind of walked like they were rapping you know what I mean and we have some real god damn snobs in our meeting if you really want to know the truth they've become so spiritual than there was any use to anybody, and he said, hmm, look over there. You know how I am. I like misfits, being a misfit. I love misfits. I spot them, I'm like, oh. So I go over and shake hands with them and say, how you doing? You know, what do you care? Not only weird looking, they were belligerent on top of it. But my problem is just, you know, I just go over welcome you I don't care you know welcome shake hands and going about my business a few months later I was talking at a fundraiser for the hospital institutional committee down in Long Beach and these two weirdos were sitting in the front row and after me when I'm come up to me and said I want you to be my sponsor what an order I can't go through that was my thought I didn't say it but that was my thoughts oh shit you know wish I played golf and said or something and I looked at him and I thought well I'll run him off you know he's weird I mean I said well I wanted to let you know uh we do a little thing different here in aa than you do over there in a he said what are you the difference i said well here we work a program recovery we just don't go to dancers and try to get laid kind of shocked him and he said i thought well that'll get him that'll send him down the road tail between his legs no he's he was persistent in this illusion he says okay I'll do it and so we embarked on this me and him going through the steps again you know I mean I found out there's inventory that he'd been in another 12-step program nine years and then And truthfulness, all he'd ever done is go to dances and look for broads. That was his statement. Try to get laid. That was His statement. It wasn't mine, it was His. And we went through these steps, and he'd been nine years without a drink of alcohol or a mood-altering chemical in his system. And so he and I went through the steps, and we got into these amend steps. I mean, he was working on his amends, and he'd completed most of it, had a few things left to do. He was in process of cleaning up some of the financial things. We're standing in a meeting one night, and there was a tap on my shoulder, and I turned around and there's the other weirdo standing there. staring at me and he said, what did you do to my friend? I said, I just put him in a program of recovery. Why? He said, because I've never seen him so happy. I said that's good. And then he really shocked me. He said, do it to me. There's now a total of nine of them weirdos in the process, in various stages. All of them are through with their fifth step and they're all in the process of working these amends and you ought to see them they don't even look the same they don'y act the same they're standing at the door shaking hands with people who don't think they ought to be there but they shake their hands anyhow they're picking up chairs, they're sweeping floors the secretaries are meeting they're driving people around letting people sleep on their couch until they get sober they're doing all the things that we're asked to do here and they're like glistening stars in the darkness or something they're absolutely and totally amazing see I have had the benefit of watching people apply this program into life no matter what stage of life that they're in. I've seen them grab this thing like it's today and get on busy with it and watch their lives take on a new meaning and a new direction. I have seen that with my own eyes. Such is the great miraculous thing of sitting in meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous to watch the living dead return to the land of the living. It's an amazing, amazing thing. And so when I sit in meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous and I hear people say things like I just can't seem to get it here or I don't know what's wrong with me I want to stand up and say for Christ sake get in a do these things get busy here because there ain't nobody so discredited that they're not welcome enough on it's none and you You never know when a friendly handshake, when you have to leave your little comfortable group of friends that you're busy shaking hands with and patting each other on the back. You never when an act of unselfish kindness breaks you away from the herd and you have to walk over and shake hands with somebody that you normally wouldn't shake hands with, will lead to a friendship that will light up your life. All you're going to do is cheat yourself. All you've got to do is shortchange yourself and you're going to miss the greatest blessing that God ever allowed people like you and I to have. The great wonderment of seeing people return from the land of the living dead to the land to the living. It says in this book, Alcoholics Anonymous, to see this fellowship grow up about you is an experience you must not miss. Straight to the great miraculous thing of Alcoholics Anonymous. So don't try to tell us, sure, it's all here. If you want it, there it is. It's in this book. It ain't no place else. I found it in this books. And you find people in AlcoholicsAnonymous who seem to have this spring in their step and this liveness about them and they seem like they're happy, joyous, and free. I'll guarantee you that they're all involved in this thing in some way or another. and that's the end of my comments on the nine steps and I see my friend just chomping at the bit bringing his little papers up here so I can confuse him even more so come all ye who are heavy and laden oh my god Jesus thanks are you really proud to wear that Redskins sweatshirt huh I know but really God I don't know they threw him up here in such order and ran before I could attack him I hope I well I'll find out I've heard it said this step nine is for us and us alone is that it or is there more to it where does humility fit in what's the spirit and or truth aim of this freedom freedom when I used to be sober under duress most of the time but when I got arrested and was sober you You know the things that drove me crazy? Was the things I had done. The nightmares and the actions and the atrocities that I had done. Not what people had done to me. Oh, I could temporarily put the nightmares off by pointing my finger and being a victim. But deep down, deep inside me when I was so sober all by myself and had no people to point the finger at, I had these images in my head of people that had harmed lives that I had destroyed and all the things that go on. My mother's eyes, the whole business. That's the purpose of step nine. To eliminate those nightmares, those living nightmares while awake is what brought freedom to me. That's the main reason I'm probably sober because I don't live in that guilt and remorse of those actions anymore. That's it, that's what humility, you want to know who humility is? Go tell somebody that you're sorry for some scummy, crummy act that you did that caused them great agony of pain. And look them eyeball to eyeball and tell them, I'm terribly sorry. I will do anything to right that wrong. What is it you want me to do? And if you can do that, you won't be talking about goddamn humility. You'll be doing it. That's humility. The willingness to go and do that is not humble pie. It's humility to actually want to right a wrong is humble. Arrogance says, it's your fault. And that's what kills people like you and I. It's not my fault. They wronged me. I'm not going to make amends. One of the greatest stories I know about this is our co-founder, Dr. Bob. Dr. Bob, as you all know was the guy that Bill Wilson called on in Akron, Ohio and got sober on Mother's Day 1935 Dr. Rob got into the business of going with Bill and talking to newcomers and all that but Bill told him he had to make amends Dr. Pop told him he wasn't going to do it that he lived in this town all his life and he was not going to go humiliate himself in front of these people where he was a professional man. And a month later, he got drunk and he came back to Akron, Ohio and his first day sober, he disappeared after going and performing an operation. He disappeared and when he got back, everybody was worried about him. They thought old Bob had been off gone again. When he got back, they said, where have you been? He said, I've been out making mending fences. He found a necessity to make them amends because he'd gotten drunk because he wouldn't make them. That's important. That's the best reason I know of. If our co-founder could get drunk because it would make amends, what makes you think that scumbags like us can get by without doing it that's our co-founder the great spiritual giant of the Oxford movement who could not stay sober because he knew all these great spiritual terms until he learned how to be of service to God and to his fellow man so don't tell me you don't have to do it how can you get a sense I did sorry you can stay sober I don't know I knew you ever had anybody attack it from the podium I have had people charge the podium second he says how can you get a sense of i don't know what that means closer if someone you owe an amends to refuses your best efforts that's none of your business if they don't accept the amends that ain't none of my business i've tried to make them. It says here, I make amends. I go out and try to make ammends. If you don't want to accept the ammonds, that's too bad. I'm not going to sit around with my begging bowl forever and ask you, please forgive me, please forget me, please forgive me. I'm going to tell you, I'm sorry. I wronged you in this way, I think. If there's any way that I can make that right, please tell me what it is. If they tell me, get out of my house, you scumbag. I'm gone I may feel bad and dejected because I can't go tell my sponsor that I had a successful man but I'm through with it my part is to try to make them it's not my business whether they accept them or not at one time I was an avid shoplifter and vandal many of these incidents I remember specifics who, where, etc many of these incidents I do not remember the specifics does this need to be addressed yep yeah I mean I'll tell you why it needs to be addressed because you're thinking about it it's in your mind and if it's bothering you you better take care of it it's like a wound it festers and you got to clean it up have you seen newcomers get bits and pieces of the promise so they will see hope and not give into despair I've seen newcomers be infatuated with the promises but not realize what they really are I've seen newcomers have a sense of freedom and relief but it's not really their own they're caught up into the excitement of the moment basically what it amounts to it's almost like the beginning of a love affair two weeks later, we said, oh, shit. You know, I mean, you know, they talk to you about riding on a pink cloud. You can get caught up into the excitement of Alcoholics Anonymous if you knew, particularly in a group like this where there's so much going on, you know. You get caught up in the excitement of it and you're relieved from the bondage of self. But we're talking about knowing God better and doing all these things. I don't believe that a newcomer can fully comprehend the things that are really happening to them because it's such a strange thing. It's such a strange things that happen to people like us. It is not something that is commonplace in our lives. We can be caught up in it. Alcoholics Anonymous almost is like an afterthought. You realize after it has already happened what has happened. But in the moment, you don't realize what's happening. I like that. That's almost like a rap, huh? What's happening? This is happening, you know what I mean? But we really don't realize, actually, many of us, probably all of us do not really realize the full impact of what's happening now until later. oh god i was having such a good time i was happy but you don't realize you're having a good time until after you've already had the good time you know what i'm talking about you understand i'm telling you don'T you DON'T really realize that GOD is doing for you what you can do for yourself till you see that he's done it i mean you can't picture what it's going to be like tomorrow until tomorrow gets here. See? You can only know what it was like yesterday. And you really don't realize what's happening today until tomorrow. And you don't necessarily have to be a newcomer to know that. But it's really a strange fact of life. In your opinion, do you believe alcoholism is genetically heredity or something to do with what we see as we are raised? No, I don't believe alcohol is genetically Heredity. I don' t know where it comes from, why some people get it and some people don't. I have an older brother who's not alcoholic dead now but he was an alcoholic you couldn't make him alcoholic I mean he wouldn't drink he'd take two drinks and quit you'd say why and he'd say I'm starting to feel it strange person strange person so I this is psychobabble this is victimization bullshit it, if you want to know. Is it heredity? It's not my fault. I got it from the parents. I would have been something if they hadn't given it to me. What we see as we are raised, I don't even know what that means. We got alcoholism because of our environment? No. I mean, there's a lot of people who come out of that ghetto that I lived in who are an alcoholic and they saw the same things I saw. My brother lived in the same household I lived with. I didn't mean that. I don't know where this stuff comes from but it's not healthy. Nobody knows where alcoholism comes from or how you get it. Nobody knows. My wife, my lovely wife who is an alcoholic, nobody in her family is alcoholic. She had two sisters, a mother and the father, grandparents. She said way back there somewhere Uncle Joe drank a little. Why she's alcohol? I don't know. of the fact that he had this allergy to alcohol. So I don't, that's, to me that's victimization. It ain't my fault. You understand? It is your fault. If alcohol is only a symptom then your actions are your charges. He says, when did you begin the eighth and ninth steps? How do you know when it is right time to start these steps, eight and nine? Well, right after six and seven. That's why they have them numbered. when did you first see the promise I don't know I just realized one day that I was happy scared the hell out of me what I donno I mean I you know I I can't pinpoint dates and times or lengths of sobriety when these things happen I just know that they happened. It isn't my timing anyhow, they just happen. They happen as a result of doing things not on a time schedule. When is it time to start making amends to a family? Immediately. What is a living amends and how is it different from formal amends? A living amends, basically, is what you do with your family if you don't owe them a great deal of money. You live according to the dictates of this program. A living amend is basically to be an example that there's a power greater than yourself working in your life and that you are a participating member of Alcoholics Anonymous trying to put something back into life rather than take from it all the time. That's what a living amends is. And it's to everybody. If you're a good example of Alcoholic Anonymous in your community and to your family and to you, and to friends, you're making a living in amends. Because whether you know it or not, a lot of people watch you. A lot of People Watch You. And wouldn't it be nice to live in such a way that when these people observe you, if they walk into a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous and you're sitting there, they won't say, well I'm not going to sit down where this creep is. If this is what AA is, I don't want no part of it. You see, they will only know that by your actions. They won't know it any other way. That's what living amends are. Formal amends are going out and telling people that I'm trying to make this amend, it's paying back money that I owe, you know, it is paying back things that I've done. Those are formal amends. Living amends is being a good example of how the program works, that's the difference. Do we ever complete our amends or are we ever free of what we have done? you complete the amends, I've already told you about being free from that thing with my little brother. Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not. It just depends, I guess. It depends on whether I'm tired or lonely or remorseful or not getting what I want when I want it. something, you know. When I'm feeling a little self-pity from time to time, you know, I don't understand. Do felonies have to be put on the eight-step list and carried through on the ninth that have no statute of limitation? I don't know I can't answer that question because I am not in that position and I I've seen some atrocities arise from this that I don' t know I think that's up to the individual and to their sponsor what they think they ought to do and I don't know I don' t know whether that comes under except to injure them or others I don''t know whether it comes under the others I really don'' t know about that I had a guy that I sponsored many years ago a nice guy he just had a tough time staying sober and he just couldn''t stay sober he'd stay sober for six or eight months and he'd get drunk and he'd stay sober for three or four months and he would get drunk and he stayed sober for a year and he got drunk and God just went on for a period of six or seven years and finally he came to me one night and he said I'm just scared to death all the time and I said well what's the matter he said I left something out of my fifth step and I asked him what did you leave out of your fifth step he said when I got paroled out of the penitentiary in Oregon and I just hung the parole on the door and left, and I've never been back or reported to the parole officer in Oregon. He said, I don't know what to do. He said every time they knock on the floor, I'm scared to death, and he said I can't walk down the street. I see them people coming. Every time a cop car gets near me, I'm afraid to death so I go out and drink. He said I'm just scared to this all the time. He said what do you think I ought to do? And I said well, you're not having much luck by not clearing it up. why don't you write him a letter up in Oregon and tell him that it's been a period of years since you've hung your parole on the office but you've lived a good life down here and you've worked and haven't committed any more felonies and see what they say and I didn't know whether that was the right answer or not to give him but it seemed like a good idea at that time so about two months later he called me up He said, let's go out to dinner. He was all happy and joyous, and I thought, oh, shit, what did he do now? I made a big score, I guess. And so we went out to the dinner, and he sat down, and he said, you know what? And he said what? He said I just got a letter from the Department of Correction in the state of Oregon. And I said, really? I said what'd they say? They said, well, they terminated your parole five years ago and haven't been looking for you for five years. And I says, you've lived five years in absolute hell. Absolute hell when you didn't have to. And he said, yeah, absolute scared to death, frightened, paralyzed that at any moment somebody's going to snatch him up off the streets and put him back in the penitentiary for five years after he didn't have to because he kept this little secret. They hadn't done nothing about it. but I didn't know whether there was a statute of limitations with that thing or not. I just found out that he wasn't getting any better and wasn't doing any worse, and all he was going to do is get worse and worse and worst and worse. His drunks were getting closer together, and he was being more bizarre all the time, no telling what he was doing. Frightened people do strange things. And finally, when he said that to me, I laughed. I laughed at him and I said Jesus Christ you know what a strange thing he's lived in absolute hell for five years unnecessarily you see but he had to get to a state in the five years that he lived in hell that last five years he had been in such a state that he was willing to do most anything to get this off of him whatever it entailed I don't know what I would tell somebody there was a there was a story that came out of New York many years ago about some guy went and told somebody about a murder that he committed down the street in a blackout or something somehow or other it got into the the police hands and it was a terrible atrocity that went on about this business i don't know what it was and somebody told this i tell you i would hate to somebody to come and drop this in my lap i really would i really i i don' t i don''t know what i'd do about it i don'T think I'd go snitch them off, but that's a terrible burden to pack. You know, I can remember when I'm out there in the rackets and I'm running, man, you know, the terror that came up into my mouth every time I saw a police car, no matter whether it was coming at me or parked on the side of the street. The terror I had when I would be laying there at night in a dope and stupor or something, it'd be a knock on the door. I'd try to jump out the window and the phone would ring. You know, I wouldn't answer the phone. Boy, that's a terrible way to live. And I wish I had an answer for it. But I don't because it's not something that I have experienced in since I've been sober. I just haven't done it. I've cleaned up all the things that I had involved with and statues and invitations have run out on the ones I didn't clean up, I suppose. But it's really a tough question. I really don't know what to do. If you want to talk about it later on, we can talk aboutit later on. But I reallydon't have any answer for it. Do you get rid of living with guilt, shame, remorse, fear, etc. after the 8th and 9th step? Yeah? Until you create things that will make you guilty, shameful, and remorseful next time. That's really true, boy. You get rid off it. you know, we clean up the wreckage of the past and then all of a sudden everyone's got to turn around and start cleaning up the Wreckage of The Present, for Christ's sake. I just told you after 37 years of being active and sober and Alcoholics Anonymous I felt this shame and guilt and remorse and I had to go do something about it. I found out that it was a matter of unfinished business for actions that I had taken and actions that I Had Done so I found it necessary to go Do It. And I didn't know which one was the most priority, whether it was my oldest daughter and my oldest grandsons or my ex-wife and my girlfriend, ex-girlfriend or whatever it was. So I just put them all on the list and just started off the list. And just went and did it all. And when I got through, I didn' t know which was the worst but they were all taken care of. And so I'm not guilty or shamed or remorseful, that's why I can sit in a meeting with Debbie. How do you make your eight step list first? Do you have to take every name from your four step? Do you have to make amends to people that you was only resentful against? You don't think you have harmed them. If they're on your list, you've harmed them or else why would you put them on the list? I don't have people on my list that I haven't harmed. When I went through this phase a year ago, there were only three names on the list that were unfinished business that I could see. Only three, just the three names, my oldest daughter, my ex-girlfriend and my ex wife. That's all I could say. There wasn't any names down there, you know, that I needed to put on there that I just had resentful. I resent people now. There's people I resent. I just resent them. I don't like them, so I resent them! I don' t resent them as people so much, I resent some of the things they do. You know what I mean? And if it bothers me bad enough, I'll go tell them so. But if it doesn't bother me, I won't say anything about it at all. See, that's a funny thing. I learned that from Papa too. Papa was sober a long time. His oldest son was drinking very heavily. And Bill was like a brother to me, and he was drinking very heavily, and Papa and I and Mom were sitting around one day talking about it And Elsa said to Chuck, she said, you know what? Chuck, Bill's drinking awful heady. Don't you think you ought to do something about it? And Chuck just shook his head and said, no. She said, why not? He said, it hasn't bothered me enough yet. See, if it don't bother you, it don'T bother you. If it bothers you, you better do something about it. See, it may be the thing that pushes you over the edge. Who knows? you know what I mean who knows what little prick of the pin will cause the infection that will kill you see it's not the big things that get you and I it's the little nickel and dime things we do the little petty lies we do, the little innuendos we do the little pins that we steal the little nonsensual shit that we do the little shining on or the bad thing we do to people or the way we talk about people the way gossip about people those are the little things that eat people like me and you up see to steal some money and cheat on your credit card or something like that you can handle that, that's just money for Christ sakes but them little If it's bothering you, you better do something about it. That's all I can tell you. There must be some reason for it to be bothering you. If it bothers me, when I figure out what it is that's bothering me, I do something bad. And I do it to me. I'll tell you why. Because I don't like pain. I am a real wimp when it comes to pain. I do not like it. I'm not talking about physical pain. I can stand physical pain, I just cannot stand the emotional pain of my bad behavior. and see I know when I have done bad behavior I know when I need amends it bothers me because the same people keep appearing all the time in front of me and it bothers the hell out of me they keep festering up and becoming in my consciousness so if it bothers you get rid of it no matter how minute it may seem if you even think that you may owe the amends, try to make them. You should go say, I think I may owe you amends. I'm sorry. Well, what do you, somebody will say, goofy? You don't owe me nothing. I think so. Bye. I mean, it's really basically that simple, but to live with a clean slate is a wonderful thing. And I'm glad you guys are really inquisitive bunch of people I'll tell you it's amazing some of these questions I've only seen a couple of them that recycle babble that's intellectual stuff you don't know but I do a couple of these things a year for guys and sometimes I get some of the goofiest questions you've ever seen. But there are no goofy questions, none whatsoever. Whatever the question is that's being asked, it absolutely bothers somebody. It's a question in your mind. And although I don't have the answers for everything and I'm no expert on anything and my experience is the only thing that I have to answer to these questions. But basically what I really know is that if there's something bothering you then you ought to talk to your sponsor if you have one and try to figure out what it is that's bothering you, then take the actions to eliminate it. And the actions may have to come. That's that is the great beneficiary thing of having a sponsor who who is not involved with you emotionally, who will unemotionally listen to you that your buddy may not listen to, or your wife may not listen to or your girlfriend may not. Sponsors are almost separated from most of those things. A sponsor's only job is when your intellect and your emotions become imbalanced or in contact, your sponsor is there to keep your emotions down until your intellect takes over. Because left to your own devices, when your emotions and your intellect come in conflict, your emotions always win. Always. And there better be a buffer in there somewhere. They're going to let us go eat again. and so thank you for your attentiveness and thank you for your questions and thank you for all the things and thank you for allowing me the privilege of sharing my experience strength and hope on the first nine steps of our program recovery and so let's just take a break and have lunch and relax a little bit and we'll come back in this afternoon and tackle another subject entirely okay let's go Thank you.