Steps 4 and 11 – Friday Night Recovery Workshop – Part 2 of 17 – 2021 – Howard E.

So my name is David, I'm alcoholic, and I'd like to welcome you all to this Open AA Recovery Workshop Q&A. And along with Stuart, I will be serving as your co-host. Stuart is unmuted for some reason. Hello, sorry. Hi Stuart,I'm alcoholic. You're all very welcome to the meeting. I'll see you later for the Q&As. Man, Stuart, thank you. So this is the 16th in a series of workshops inspired by recoveryspeakers.com and it's hosted by the Saturday Night A Group in Camberwell, London, SE5. Now the title of tonight's workshop, I'm excited for this one. I've been waiting for this for quite a while. I just look really, I am, I'm really excited about this one but this is Howard Ebert who's going to be sharing on Joe and Charlie. Wonderful people, Joe and Charley. Really influential in my own personal recovery and a program for you it's titled Joe and Charlie a program for you God bless them so the common thread trail I said that so the title of tonight said that the audio of tonight's presentation will be recorded by Mike Mackey at recoverytapers.com and we're very grateful to Mike for taking the time out to do that for us and I will put a link into the chat as the meeting goes on and you can find a lot of our workshops are on that and some of our speakers on Saturday Night Group we've been blessed to be able to record them during these difficult periods, this difficult time. So we'd like to point out that what I share at these workshop meetings represents the experience, the strength and the hope of AA members and not to be taken to represent AA as a whole. The AA 12-step programme of recovery can be found in the basic textbook titled Alcoholics Anonymous, which we fondly call the big book. And strange enough, the fellowship gets its name from it. Bit of information. Now, if you would like to unmute, we're going to say a version of the set-aside prayer and I'm just going to put it up on the screen if you'd like to jump in with that one. We'd appreciate it if you could do that, just set the tone for the meeting. So, I think I have to unmute you all again, do I? Can someone do that for me? Do I have to do that? You're unmuted, it's okay. Thank you, Francis. Unmuted already, good. Thank you everyone. So, we're using God as we understand it. God, please help me set aside everything, everything I think I know. A global mind and a new experience. Amen. We'll just have a few moments of silence to gather our thoughts, obviously to think of those who went before us, and those who are going to come after us, and obviously our families as well. thank you for that this this is a the program for you that joe and charlie this is guide to the big books designed for living i just want it it's not endorsement or anything that i just i just feel it's because of the occasion tonight i just thought i'd put that up on on the thing and i also just want to put this up as well and i hope people don't mind this is if anyone like to this is joe mckew november if anyone would like to put a condolence on the website and obviously there's one for charlie there's charlie god bless him so um okay i'm gonna stop all that and I'm getting shivers here. So that's great. Howard, it gives me great pleasure to turn the meeting over to you, man. God bless you. Have a good one. Okay. My name is Howard Eber and I am an alcoholic. I want to thank everyone for showing up here. I'm honored that Phyllis is attending. I am exhausted. I was up till about two in the morning last night putting some of this together and I woke up at six today to work on it and I'm running on empty. And I shared my story about an hour ago, and what happened to me was a speaker's worst nightmare. I went blank in the middle of talking blank. I was going from the seventh step to the eighth step, and I had no idea. I couldn't even remember my name. All of a sudden it was complete black. The worst nightmare when you're a speaker. So I hope that doesn't happen again now, but be that as it may. Let's talk about this a bit. You know, I spoke to a lot of people who personally knew one of the three or all of them, and inevitably it always came down to the same thing, not the personal details. They always said the same thing at some point, which is Joe and Charlie changed my life, that I wouldn't be here today if it weren't for joe and charlie and the only people i ever heard say something other than that are the people who've never listened to joeandcharlie so you know when i tell you about joeantcharlie i can't you know tell you what you don't already know about the effect that they had on us and my recovery a hundred percent i put on god through joeancharlie um i celebrated 10 year anniversary is three times. I made every mistake you can possibly make. When I came back this last time in January of 2006, I was lost. Somebody introduced me to Joe and Charlie. And on May 2nd, 2006, i began my first Joe and charlie workshop and i haven't stopped since. Ongoing since that time. Let's talk a little bit about these guys. Let me put something up here. most of what i do we're going to talk but i'll put some things up all right in the beginning there were two old drunks with a desire to stop drinking out of which came a program called alcoholics anonymous and a book commonly known as just the big book like another iconic book one also filled with stories and numbered suggestions for how to live your life The big book has been misquoted, misused, taken out of context. Alcoholics argue over what is really meant by this or that. They dispute what's really meant about a power greater than themselves or working with others. They dispute exactly how quickly one is to work the 12 steps, and then they argue about how to work to 12 steps. The big book is a bit like figuring out a set of Ikea instructions minus the lovely diagrams because you're building something that you can't actually see or touch or even imagine this pile of wood and screws turns into something. Well, it took Bill and Bob to give us the book, but it took Joe and Charlie to explain it. Enter Joe McWaney and Charlie Palmerly. Joe McQuainy is a gentleman on the right, Charlie Palmerley is a gentlemen in the center, and on the left is Joe McCoy, the second Joe. But now we enter Joe and Charley into that atmosphere, self-proclaimed AA fundamentalists who took their brand of simple AA wisdom around enlightening those who were confused about the language and wanted directions. Thousands of recovered alcoholics have studied with them in weekend seminars. Thousands more have heard recordings of their book, Big Book Comes Alive weekends. Two minutes into any recording of theirs, and you get a mental image of two guys just sitting on their front porch of a country store, rocking back and forth, telling stories, sharing a jug of moonshine. And you'd be almost right, except for the moonshINE. And it doesn't hurt that Joe and Charlie were incredibly amusing, cracking jokes of all sorts of topics. One AA member told me they have this down-home folksy charm, medicine go down. They talked about their serious matters while still managing to laugh at it themselves. The year was 1962, and a 34-year-old African American alcoholic working as a waiter in Little Rock, Arkansas, named Joseph Daniel McWaney, woke up and found himself in the psych ward of the Arkansas State Hospital. In those days, Joe recalled, white men trying to get on the wagon could find a treatment program, but black men were sent to the state hospital, otherwise known as the Nuthouse. As for women alcoholics, he said, the only place for them was jail. Once he detoxed, Joe knew he'd have to find some way to stay sober and Joe chose Alcoholics Anonymous. But a black man in those days, in the South, if he was even allowed into a meeting, he'd be left out of the social bonding, the fellowshipping that's such an important, albeit informal, part of the program. He was not permitted to arrive early and then only to stand in the back of the meetings. He couldn't even help himself to a cup of coffee, and he had to leave the moment the meeting ended. No matter, although he was denied the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous, Joe got into the steps, the program, the book of Alcoholic Anonymous. Joe said professionals try to attack the protective barrier of denial and get the alcoholic to admit he's an alcoholic. Joe said the jury is still out on how effective this can be because in most cases it's a waste of time as most alcoholics are better at denial than the professionals are at counseling. In addition to writing the recovery dynamics counselor's manual Joe published two other books. One is The Steps We Took, which is a guide through the steps. It follows exactly what they said in their weekends, but it's a written guide through the steps, and he also wrote Carry the Message, which is how to be a sponsor with specific directions for sponsoring people. So you start with this book, and then you work this book. All right, let me get rid of that. Okay. Frustrated by the limited resources that were available for alcoholics in the early 70s, Joe was armed with only a $330 grant and a few charitable donations when he founded a program called Serenity House. Apparently, the then-governor of Arkansas, Bill Clinton, helped Joe secure some much-needed costly permits and certifications. Although there was no actual house in the beginning, he called it Recovery House, but there was not a house, that would come later. He developed what's called Recovery Dynamics, a treatment model for addiction. And the high rate of recovery found at Serenity House created a demand from other facilities that wanted to replicate that success by adhering to that book, Recovery Dynamrics Counselor's Manual. Serenety House grew into Serenite Park Treatment Center, an extended care facility open to anyone. Black, white, broke, billionaire, anyone who wanted to get the monkey off their back. In 1969, a 43-year-old chicken farmer from Maysville, Arkansas named Charles Andrew Parmley also decided to get sober and the two met at an Al-Anon convention in 1973. Please remember that date. It's important. 1973 is when Joe and Charlie came together. Joe, who was attending with his wife, an active Al-Anon member, was asked to introduce the speaker who was representing alcoholics that night, a fellow he knew only as Charlie P. I wondered if he might be the famous country western singer Charlie Pryde, Joe recalled, but he wasn't even the right color. I don't know how many people even remember Charlie Pryde, but he was a big country western star at one point and he was not white. They formed an instant friendship based on a common interest in the big book and they had a great deal of frustration in being unable to find anyone who would study it with them. Neither one was willing to risk on everything, on the pervasive just don't drink and go to meetings attitude. They considered themselves old-school fundamentalist AAs and really wanted a better understanding of the program as laid out in the book. They immediately realized that they both shared a vision of how Bill Wilson was thinking and what he was saying in the pages of the big book. So they began meeting wherever, whenever they could, sometimes traveling over 200 miles to get to each other's homes. Sometimes, very often, they met in hotel rooms at AA conventions. One of Charlie's sponsees asked if he could sit in with them, and word started to get around. He told another guy who told another man who told him another guy, who told the other guy, and more and more sober alcoholics at conventions crammed into their little hotel rooms to hear the two of them talk about the big book. Someone they met at the 1977 Tulsa, Oklahoma convention asked if they would come and present their program on the book to his home group. An AA taper made a four-tape set of that presentation and called it, quote, the big book study, and circulated it throughout the fellowship, local fellowship, sparkling more invitations to presented conventions, roundups, and special events. By 1980, three years later, they were conducting about eight presentations a year. At the 1980 International AA Convention in New Orleans, another alcoholic by the name of Wesley Parrish, an impassioned big booker from Pompano Beach, Florida, he organized a luncheon for the 1,500 attendees of the convention who came from all over the globe. He conducted a raffle and he gave away 100 of the Joe and Charlie tapes as door prizes. There was a ruffle, that was the door prize. What no one knew at the time was the raffle was rigged. Wes had carefully combed through all of the participants tickets and selected the winners based on where they came from. In that manner, he can guarantee that the words of Joe and Charlie would truly be spread far and wide. So he looked at those tickets and awarded it based on who lived furthest away than who was the next and who was next to get the word out. Well, it worked. That was 1980. Within a few years, they were conducting about 36 presentations a year. Remember, only 52 weeks in a year, and they're conducting 36 weekend conventions. Studies were given in 48 states, most Canadian provinces, as well as in Australia, New Zealand, England, Scotland, Ireland, France, Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, and Sweden. In 1990, Joe had to curtail his travels for health reasons. So Charlie turned to another Joe. Oddly enough, another guy named Joe, Joe McCoy, an active study group member since the earliest days to pick up the slack. Charlie said where God guides, God provides. Is it odd or is it God? There are no circumstances is what Benny Joe McCoy was fond of saying. It was my favorite expression of his, is it odd or is it God? There are no coincidences. The two of them traveled the world taking people through the big book and their legacy continues online or your smartphone. There are several different Joe and Charlie smartphone apps. Some have transcripts attached to it. There are big book studies everywhere. People conducting, just playing the tapes and studying that. People interpreting the tapes like we do on Sunday. Our workshop is all founded in the tapes. Charlie would remind his audience all the time that they were just two old drunks who met together several years ago, found they had a mutual interest in the big book. He said, we studied it together for quite some time. Hopefully, we've learned a few things about it and those few things we've earned about it, we just love to be able to share with other people. Joe McCoy traveled the globe with Charlie for 16 more years, 16 more years before a bout of meningitis permanently sidelined him. That was in 2006. a year later in 2007 charlie retired as well the original joe joined the others for two or three seminars including this one in 2001 in boca raton it's available in an 11 cd set it is joe and charlie and as far as i'm concerned that's like the Beatles reunion. That is that important to me. When I saw that that was available, I jumped on it and I was as excited as if John, Paul, George, and Ringo were together on a stage finally once again. That istruly the way I view that. And I believe there's one or two more of their appearances like that. Well, all of this growth has not come without a measure of turbulence. What spiritual journey doesn't always encounter some obstacles? Some fellow AAs have termed them self-appointed gurus. Others have accused them of making money on the weekends. Actually, only travel expenses, meals and lodging were paid for by the independent AA host committee sponsoring the study. That is in accordance with AA guidelines for conference and conventions published by the General Service Office. Lois pointed out to me that when she joined them, she had to pick up the tab for all of her travels, for the hotel, for food. They got nothing but expenses for Joe and Charlie when they were doing the weekend. Joe McQuainy succumbed to Parkinson's disease and passed away on October 25th, 2007. Charlie Parmelee was shoveling snow when he suffered a massive heart attack and died April 21st, 2011. I'm getting a little choked up because I spoke to Charlie a day or two days actually before he died. He was going out to shovel snow and he suffered a massive heart attack and passed away. And Joe McCoy, who never fully recovered from his illness, passed from our site November 23rd, 2014. I want to show you some statistics because I ask people the same question is how do you measure what Joe and Charlie did for us. So here's a couple of specifics. Can you see that? Since 1977, roughly when they started to do their workshops, an estimated 200,000 members have experienced the spiritual benefits of their studies. There's 200, 000 people have attended big book studies. That has nothing to do with people who listened to recordings, who made their own meetings up and listened to it. This is 200,000 people who actually attended. Here's another statistic you'll find interesting. Mike Fitzgerald suggested that the best way to judge, get an idea of how effective Joe and Charlie were, is in book sales. So let's look at that. From 1939 to 1973, 73 is the year Joe and Charlie met, there were 1 million copies sold. In 35 years, they sold 1 million companies. They gave the one millionth copy to the then President Nixon at the time. He probably should have read it and joined us, but be that as it may, in 1973, after 35 years they finally sold the millionth copy. In the next 32 years, 73 to 2005, an additional 24 million were sold. So that means in the first 35 years of our being Alcoholics Anonymous, we sold 1 million copies. In the 32 years after that, they sold an additional $24 million, 24 times what they sold before. How do you account for that? Joe and Charlie were around spreading the word at that time. And from what it's worth, kind of after Joe and Charlie retired from 2005 to 2007, it continued. There were an additional 5 million sold in five years. That's a total of 30 million copies. 29 million of them were sold from 73 to now. What's the main difference between our fellowships then and now? the only thing I could think of is Joe and Charlie. Roughly 29 million books were sold in the 37 years since the millionth copy. For what it's worth, as of 2020, they project that there are 20 million books sold. And let me just put up some quotes I got from various people about Joe and Charley. This is from Mike. Mike Fitzpatrick, who does the history meeting later this evening. He's written several books on various topics in AA. He said they may not have brought great numbers of people into AA, but they are responsible for keeping them here. They brought a depth and weight that was needed. When Joe and Charlie began teaching the book, it started getting into the heart of AA. They were able to so beautifully teach people the difference between the program and the fellowship. That's Larry Gaines, who's the CEO of Charlie's Recovery House. The true legacy of Joe and Charlie's conversations was the actual understanding of the steps. For them, it was about putting aside personalities and bringing the principles of AA to the forefront. They broke the 12 steps down in a way that people could understand, thus helping them practice those principles in all of their affairs. They viewed the big book as THE treatment model not any other book Yes David? We still have the estimate for the members we haven't got those quotes on the screen I'm sorry, I went through all of that and you didn't see it My bad There you go How about now? uh there you go that's good howard if you could make it a lot enlarger just a little bit howard there you know hold on so again just to review mike said they may not have brought a lot of people in but they're responsible for keeping him here because they brought a depth and a weight that was desperately needed larry gains the director of serenity park joe's recovery facility says when joe and charlie began teaching they started getting people back into the heart they were able to beautifully teach people a difference between the program and the fellowship. They certainly taught me that. I didn't even realize there was a difference until I listened to Joe and Charlie explain it. The true legacy of Joe and Charlie's conversations was the actual understanding of the steps. That is the understatement of my life. For them, it was about putting aside principles and bringing the personalities and bringing the principles of a8 to the forefront i love this they broke the 12 steps down in a way that people could understand thus helping them practice those principles in all their affairs they viewed the big book as the treatment model you didn't need another guide through the steps you had one it's called the big book joe and charlie whenever they would uh go around and do their weekends they love to fellowship around with fans and friends. So I'm going to show you some pictures that I've collected. Just a minute. Okay, can you see that? Not yet. You had it there. It went off the screen again. It'll come back now. Hang on. There you go, right? Good, Howard. You might want to enlarge it a little bit. Yeah, I'll enlarge It a little Bit. This is one of our group members who's here today, Tony Smith from England. England came to Arkansas to be treated and they covered It. They thought He was kind of unique, so they took a lot of pictures with Him. At that time, Joe was pretty old. He didn't do That as much as he used to, but again, And they love being with people in the treatment center. Here's another picture of the two of them together. Here's one from Rosie Brewer sent me this picture. It's her and her husband Jeff in Liverpool in, I don't have the year here, 74? No, it can't be. It must be 84. But be that as it may, they just love to pose with people. And this is the original Joe and Charlie. here's joe mccoy joe is the actually joe went around for a lot longer than the original joe did joe macquarie was around for more recordings than the origin of joe maquini here's the two of them together this is like bill and bob to me i love that quote that it took bill and bob too right get the book out but it took charlie and joe to explain it to us that is so true. So true. They taught me that it was a textbook, that it wasn't just a work of fiction or nonfiction as the case may be. It's a textbook that needs to be taught and they were great teachers. I asked Barbara Parmelee, Charlie's wife, a while back if she can account for the fact that here's a semi-intellectual Jewish guy from New York who found identification in a 70 year old Baptist chicken farmer from Arkansas. How do you explain that? That he was able to talk to me like nobody else was ableto get through and there was nothing we shared in common and her response was like jesus he was a great teacher and they were joe mccoy joe macqueenie charlie palmley wonderful teachers if you go to youtube you can actually watch joe maquini's step uh workshops he has going through the steps i think he calls it the blackboard talk but he's conducting a journey through the footsteps there's a tape for each one of the steps on youtube Charlie isn't there, but at least it's Joe and you'll hear the same things. There's another picture of it. I'll blow it up a bit. Conducting the classes. The two of them together again. Here's at one of the weekends. They couldn't get this guy in the picture, the tall guy in back. But again, Charlie posing with people. You'll notice Charlie always wore, excuse me, as far as I'm concerned, questionable taste in his shirts. And he wore suspenders. And more often than not, he wore a belt with his suspenders, this picture doesn't show it. But when I met him the first time he had a belt on with the suspenders I can never get that. But again, this is Oklahoma, Arkansas, it's not Manhattan. Here they are somewhere else. I think this is on a cruise. It looks like a cruise because they did a couple of sober cruises and that's where a couple of folks I spoke to met them. Here's another event. Joe McCoy, Charlie, two people with them. This is my favorite picture. I love this picture. It's so crisp and clear and they just look terrific. There's Joe. There's Charlie. 16 years. Look at how many people they've affected, how many people they helped. amazing more pictures just anyone around they love to take pictures with them i love that picture of joe of charlie younger charlie in black and white this isn't charlie's home i guess he had visitors excuse me from time to time who would come by in maysville so here they are with him here he is with his brother if you've listened to the joe and charlie tapes You've heard Charlie talk about the trip he was going to make to California. He was teaching us the third step, and he was showing us the difference between making a decision to do something and making a decision to do something and following it with action. He talked about how long he was planning on this trip to California, and it wasn't until he actually took out the map, made a plan, got in the car, and went. So we all heard the story of how he got there. Here he is there with his brother in California. There's another picture of the two of them in his brother's living room. His brother's name is Bob, incidentally, in Bob's living room. Charlie again while on that visit. This I think is one of the most popular pictures. I see this everywhere it seems to be. Joe and Charlie with someone identified as Joyce. Not sure who that is but it's a great picture great picture i think it was later on because you could see joe's cane somewhere in the picture uh here charlie loved to pose with the ladies always loved to pose withthe ladies joe was a ham uh charlie was a hem uh this is some some vagrant who showed up at a convention and asked to take a picture that's me 30 pounds heavier when i first met charlie in Springfield, Massachusetts. We got talking and formed a little bit of a relationship and he said it was okay to call him when he retired and I did several times. This is the boot-in-the-ass group in California, 2005. You could see Joe popping out from behind Charlie and the rest of the people there, attendees, maybe organizers, they just love doing this kind of stuff. is another one again charlie with the ladies he loved the ladies all right now let me get back to something else i want sure it's substance of what they kind of did how they evolved um let's go let me go back joe and charlie used to do a lot of handouts which is where i adopted a lot of mind from let's start with this this is a 2001 fourth step grid if anyone wants to interrupt with something you feel free to you see i see that you heard it's just a dark screen oh sorry hang on let me light it up for you should have it now got it we've got a review of our sex conduct this is one of the grids they this was when i said this was 2001 they did in like basically four columns here notice the who did i harm and what did i do same as we do now but the third column what basic instinct is affected is the same but the fourth column is a combination of what became the fourth and fifth column which you're going to see in their later handouts they just changed it for whatever reason i personally like it i like a four five column method uh here's another one this is the same year review of fears now i gotta tell you that this isthe one thing that i do a little differently than joe and charlie because i don't follow these columns that way the way i follow it is by the instructions in the book basically bill just says we identified the fears we asked ourselves why we had it we asked god to remove it bing bang boom but this is the way they did it four columns review of fears this is the anger list who am i angry at resentfully they use the word resentments there but you all know how i feel about that that's what they did in 2001 moving ahead a few years uh then 2004 i'll get it for you uh here it is okay 2004 they just had a booklet and they broke down the big book goals by chapter what refers to what um if i could blow that up for you a little bit big book goals the problem step one was covered in the doctor's opinion and bill's story The solution, step two in there is a solution more about and we agnostics. And the program of action was laid out in how it works into action and working with others. This is their disease concept. Let me make that a little bit bigger, which I don't usually get deep into when I do the workshop. it's a little complicated for me but they they enjoyed it to explain how the chemical breakdown in the body of an alcoholic is different than the chemical shutdown of alcohol in a non-alcoholic this handling of uh diacetic acid and acinetone and kind of makes my hair hurt but that's what they did uh let's see what's the next one um what is the solution to me this isn't a breakdown of going from the spirit of the fellowship to the fellowship of the spirit person comes in he's that new member and he's surrounded by the old members here who give them experience strength and hope and that guy begins to believe that he could do it has a willingness to do it investigates it opens up that book that set of spiritual tools related is that his feet that suitcase he takes those steps he works them, revolutionizes his whole idea towards life fellows, God's universe he has experienced the personality change and what happens next he becomes one of these guys he becomes 1 of the old timers who celebrate and surround the newcomer that's how we go from the spirit of the fellowship which is what we experience when we come in to the fellowship of the spirit which is where we are when we've done this work uh basic instincts this was part of that fourth step handout let me see if i could blow it up a bit just kind of defining some terms you know what the social instinct was uh security instincts sex instinct just to give us a deeper understanding that's what joe and charlie were all about to get us to understand what this is all about here's a list of people, institutions, and principles like a prompt sheet. I give out almost this exact same thing. When you're doing your anger list, here's a way to kind of get you started. I never met an alcoholic who didn't know the people he was angry at, probably the institutions as well, but principles takes a little bit of thought. You know, the principles are things that are put in our head sometimes as kids that hurt us. A buddy of mine in a workshop put down on his inventory for principles all men are created equal he was a black man and didn't feel that whenever you heard that he'd get angry because that wasn't his experience so one of the principles that pissed him off was all men have created equal we all have different things here's the grid that they used in that this is three years later and they were already going to five columns here's the anger list. The first two are the same. We listed who we were angry at, why it affects my, what basic instinct is hurt or threatened? What part did I play in getting this ball rolling? Where were we to blame? And what defect came out as a result of it? My faults, which is very much the way, at least in our workshops, we follow the same pattern. And here's another one. This is the fear inventory, five columns as well. This is more along the lines of what I guess a lot of us use these days. Here's the sex inventory. Same thing. What did I do? What instinct was I trying to satisfy? Putting it a little differently in words, what impact did it have on others? Did it create jealousy, suspicion, bitterness, and my defects? What defect came out as a result of it? Here's The Other Harms List. Just other harms. Even if the people are on other lists we put them down here if they have to have amends made and who did i hurt this is another one the plans for the amends so that was who we heard this is how we're going to make the amens put down the name what it was what we're gonna offer when we're doing it now laters maybe nevers etc then we'll move on i don't got too much more but if you find it of interest i found it fascinating now we're going to go to 2007 i saw them here this is where i'm whoa holy cow this is where i met joe and charlie except joe was ill and he wasn't there a gentleman by the name of wes bickley filled in but mostly it was charlie doing this and this was about a year before he retired. And if you look at the schedule here, this is a pretty arduous job for basically one man, 70-some odd year old man with heart problems, sitting up there and talking for all of these hours. Why? Because he thought it was important for us to get that message. During one of these breaks in the convention, I went up to Charlie and I asked him a question about the difference between the 10th and the 11th step, the wording in the book. And he explained it to me perfectly, just beautifully. And I don't really have the time to go through the lengthy explanation, but he took the time to do that. Later that same day, I was standing in a line to buy the CDs of that weekend. And I get a tap on the back and I turn around and it's Charlie Parmley asking me if I had time to think about what we talked about earlier and if i had any more questions that's what he was concerned about that's a member of the audience had some lack of clarity and he wanted to make sure i was clear on it that's why charlie palmley was all about and joe mccoy and joel mcqueenie all of them uh let me show you the handout that they used at that uh conference okay let me get this up for you there we go this was the cover of it big book comes alive with joe and charlie this is what they handed out this is the company that did the recording easy does it audio but this is a cover of the booklet when i went there uh that's not it actually we're going the wrong way there we go here's page one breaking the book down just like they did in the other book that the problem was in the step chapter one step one powerless and bill story in the doctor's opinion the second goal was stepped it was a solution which was found in there is a solution more about alcoholism and we agnostics it was about getting the power and the necessary action for recovery was covered in chapters 5 6 and 7 where to find that power um this is another diagram basically going from the fellowship of the spirit to the spirit of the fellowship spirit of fellowship to the fellowship with the spirit again a new member comes in he's surrounded he uses his kid at separate tools he uses the 12 step he has a personality change and now he becomes one of these older members um did that one already uh let's move it along step four he compared the business and a personal inventory a glossary of terms that they used at the time uh basic instincts just like they talked about before if anyone wants copies that is just see me and i'll send it to you but this was the inventory that they were using then this is the form that I used when I first did my inventory, the five-column method. This was the anger list. Here's the fear list, sex conduct, and harms other than sexual. This was The Eleventh Step Inventory at Night. We asked ourselves, were we more on the left side practicing self-will or were we on the right side expressing God's will throughout the day? this was our constructive review of the day that's how they suggested it and we've covered all of that and i think i've got just about everything i want to show you except i want to show some books um we know about carry the message and we know about the steps we took david in the beginning put up this book a program for You, which is a Joe and Charlie weekend from 1988, for what it's worth, that's written out in narrative form. It's a narrative. For years before this book came out, what was circulating around the fellowship was this. This is a written transcript of their weekend in Laughlin, Nevada from 1988 and it is just that a transcript if you could see it it is every word every sound every cough every suggestion as they were talking this is not available now but you can get a copy of it because they finally finally finally published it this way need it want it do it It's readily available through Amazon for like eight bucks. This is the transcript of that Laughlin, Nevada talk. And most places you go to, AA Speaker, YouTube, what you will hear is that 1988 Laughland, Nevada talk. They identify it right away at the beginning. I think that's it. I've gone on long enough. I thank you all for the time. I hope somebody learned something about Joe and Charlie. Can I ask Phyllis if he'd like to say anything? It's on mute, Phyllис. PhyllIS is Joe McCoy's widow. There you go. Thank you. I'm PhyllIs and I'm an alcoholic. You took me down memory lane. You really did. You did a good job. Thank you, thank you. Thank you for all you've done. Thank you so much, so much. I wish I would have known your husband better. Thank you.