Step 8 — Made a List – Kathleen B. – 2026 Wilson House Big Book Workshop Retreat – with Andy B. and Kathleen B.

I'm Alex. I'm an alcoholic. Hey, Alex! So this is the passage for steps eight and nine. Now we need more action, without which we find that faith without works is dead. Let's look at steps eight and nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. We subjected ourselves to a drastic self-appraisal. Now we go to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves. If we haven't the will to do this, we ask until it comes. Remember it was agreed upon at the beginning we would go to any lengths for victory over alcohol. Thanks, Alex. I knew it was going to happen as soon as we became the speakers for this event, just off a cliff. Oh, oh. I'm really sorry, guys. And you need to be right. Did you want to do the ask a basket stuff first? Yeah, why don't we answer these questions and then we'll get into eight and nine. Sure. Okay. This question's great. It says, what do you do when your sponsee has excuses not to do the work or does it slowly? I think that the longer... So I think... I always think back to like, what did my sponsor do for me that worked? And I also think like, what was my job and what was like, what was not my sponsor's job? You know what I mean? Like, it's like, so what my sponsor did for me is she shared routines and practices that helped her get through. When they say the work, it makes me think a lot about like four-step writing, which I think... I think is what this person might've been referring to. And so she talked about like, if something is a priority to me, I schedule it into my day. I pray for the willingness to do it. I set alarms so that I remember this is the time I'm supposed to do it. And then when the alarm goes off, I ask for the willingness to do it again. And then I do it. And then afterward, I thank God for the willingness to have taken that action. And that was really... It was really helpful that she shared that with me. That is also something that I share with my sponsees. And that echoes a lot of what we just talked about in six and seven. Like, we're lazy. Alcoholics are like undisciplined people. And we just want to do the least amount of work and get the best results. And so like, but if you want to get your four-step done, you have to do some writing, right? It's going to take some time and effort. And sometimes people, like, aren't taking action. And so that other piece of this is like, then they don't take action. And it's not my job to force them to do the work or to speed it up. It's their experience. One of the things my sponsor did is she loved me enough to let me have my own experience with this process. So she wasn't managing it for me. She's not my higher power. She's not my boss. She's not there to, like, force the outcome on a certain timeline. And as a sponsor, I know that that is not my job either. Is there anything else that you would add to that? I think you said exactly what I would have said. The thing that is coming to my head too with this is, Timmy would say, like, about being a sponsor, he'd be like, do you want to rule with an iron fist or a gentle hand, right? Like, forcing somebody to do it isn't necessarily going to work. But I mean, the schedule thing is what I would suggest to all my sponsees. And just, like, stay in on a schedule. The way to finish your four step is to do it every day until you're done. Yeah. It's easier to do it if you do it every day. It's like going to the gym, you know? Doing it once every two weeks sucks. Yeah. You just get sore, and then, yeah. Doing it every day sucks for a few days, and then it just becomes part of your routine. Yeah. Yeah. That's one that you have. Yeah. Yeah. I like how she chose the ones which I got. I like that. Oh, I hadn't read these. I just gave you two. Oh, you were just giving me random ones? Yeah. Did you? OK. I think you read one. I did give you that. I gave you one of them. Yeah. Step four. How do we address behavior that happened in Blackout that we may not remember fully? I think what I tell people for step four, like, sometimes it'll be like, well, I don't remember the person's name, it's kind of shady. You know, it's like, all right. I would say like, write down what you do remember. I think the bigger thing for me here is actually in step nine. Yeah. Right. And that's, and we'll, we'll talk about it more in depth, but one really important thing that I do when I make amends is I always leave a space for, is there anything I left out? Cause I don't know how I've harmed you, especially if I was in a blackout. Yeah. Right. So do you have anything else to add to that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think that there's stuff that I wrote about in my four-step that was around like conduct from a blackout that like was really murky stuff that I just like, so I just like wrote about what I remembered to the best of my ability. And like, that was what I shared with my sponsor and you know, that's the best we can do, you know? And sometimes like stuff comes up later and, and we deal with it the best we can when it comes up. So. This also reminded me of like, uh, uh, as an alcoholic, I live in the worst possible reality. Right. So when there's like, when there's like three possible outcomes until I find out the answer, I am living in the worst possible outcome. So it's like, you're already in the worst case scenario. Right. So if I'm not sure what happened during the blackout, right. I'm already, I've already accepted it. That is the worst possible thing. So I might as well just, uh, you know, try and, uh, face it. Right. And, and get, get past it. And the whole point of, um, doing the inventory and, uh, asking God to be rid of the character defects and then eventually make the amends is to move to a place where it does not rule me anymore. Yeah. And like the only hesitation I have around like, um, finding out information about something that I'm, that I'm not clear on what happened would be like, if I could potentially do more harm. Yeah. That's like, I don't, I don't want to do that, but if I like need information, like if, if, if I have an experience and I don't know what happened, like I can, I can ask questions to find out the truth and like, maybe somebody can tell me what happened and that could be embarrassing, but I also might find out the truth. So, um, yeah. Yeah. Cool. This question says, do you have advice? Bless you. Do you have advice for a new sponsor? What tips and tricks do you have? Um, we're going to talk a lot about, um, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, tomorrow morning. I think that that whole like session is devoted to step 12. But, um, you know, the one thing I would just say now is like, um, as a, my, my sponsor, she would remind me, I am not powerful enough to keep you sober. Yeah. And nothing I say, like, we're not so important as sponsors that like, we can like save someone's life. Just like, I think it's important. Right. Right. to remember like what my role is as a sponsor is to put your hand in God's hand so that you can recover from alcoholism um there and we'll talk we'll talk tomorrow about all the things that a sponsor isn't you know because we try I think as sponsors to be a lot of things for people and we really have a primary purpose it's just to help the alcoholic recover from from this disease do you have anything else you want to add to that or good okay should I do the last one yeah this is the last one right uh so this is uh was put in by somebody who's got jokes uh but I have answers okay will the bills ever win the super bowl yes and it's gonna be next year and I'll tell you why okay so our new defensive coordinator Jim Leonard right he runs a 4-3 right I'm sorry a 3-4 and not a 4-3 traditionally in the playoff games that we lost we've let allowed over 30 points we haven't had a sack in a playoff loss since 2021 by Jerry Hughes he hasn't even been to the league for multiple years what are we doing guys the defense is the problem not Josh Allen I I could keep going I'll yeah find me later I'll fill you in yeah let us know who you are you're working for the panthers though right you're working for the panthers though right you're working for the panthers though right I got to run a I got to run a a little uh a workshop for for people at uh the work event that I was at and I got to put in like a bunch of polls and one of the polls I put in was uh who's gonna win the super bowl and I put Seahawks and who even cares who even cares one's like one by like it was like 47 to like 13 so yeah we're we're happy for the Patriots fans I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I bought my dad's car I for christmas this year he's very excited about the trajectory of the patriots and i am happy for all of you so he's not cath no i'm not happy for you all uh cath i'll tell you what though cath came up with the idea of getting the jersey and i actually purchased it that is correct so okay because her parents are fantastic people that help us so much and i want him to be happy i just also hate all of you so much you're spoiled it has take us into eight and nine all right you're spoiled i hate all of you so much you're spoiled yeah maybe we should rate this out yeah all right so eight and nine um eight is uh i think we could we could do eight right now if you were ready to do eight you could do it right now before we even started talking about step nine, right? The mechanics of it is I made a list, right? I made a list of all the people I had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. And I don't think that's something that necessarily happens immediately, right? The willingness part, anyways. But making the list I can do now. Usually when I'm talking to a sponsee and it's time to make the eight-step list, I've already done most of that for them because I've written down all of the people that they brought up on their fourth step while I've listened to their fifth step, right? And I've written down all those names for them. Along with, I didn't talk about this, along with I write down all the character defects I hear too. And now I'm like, hey, I got a starter list for you for step six and I got a starter list for you for step eight. There were people on my eighth step that did not show up on my resentment list. My grandmother, she never did anything wrong to me my entire life. She was nothing but this wonderful woman my entire life. And when I was in a bad place, I'd go visit her, I'd hang out with her and I'd steal money out of her purse and pills out of her medicine cabinet, right? I had an amends to make there for sure, right? She didn't show up on my resentment list. She showed up on my eight-step list. So there might be people like that. There's probably, you know, most alcoholics have problems with money, right? There's probably some financial amends that I need to make. There's going to be things that didn't come up on my fourth step necessarily where I might owe money to institutions that I'm going to need to think about before I make my eight-step list. But when I tell people to go make the eight-step list, I expect them to have it done the next day, right? Like, here's the instructions. Here's the instructions on how to do it. Within 24 hours, you're calling me back with a list. It's probably not 100% done, but it's 95% done, right? More things will come. More things will be revealed. But this is probably the easiest step in all of the 12 steps. The willingness part isn't always the easiest part, but we have an out on that too. When I, and I know a bunch of people have like slightly different ways of doing this, but after I've asked my sponsee to go make his eight-step list, I tell them to divide the paper into quadrants, right? So we have, we have a piece of paper, horizontal line, vertical line. Now I got four quadrants, right? And I go, we're going to label this one ready, willing, able. We're going to label this one willing, able, willing and ready, but not able. We're going to label this one willing, not ready. And then we're going to label this one. Never. Right? And we've given you the option for all of them, right? Ready, willing, and able is this guy lives 10 minutes down the road from me. I see him almost on a daily basis. All right. I know what I've run. I know what I've done wrong. I'm ready to go make this immense, right? Um, willing and ready, but not able. That's this guy that moved down to Florida like five years ago. Right? It's going to be hard for me to make that in person amends. I'm ready to do it. I'm willing to do it. Right? But I'm not really just like physically able to right now. Right? Or maybe they're, they've got something. I don't know. There's lots of reasons where it could be. Right? And then, um, and then there's the other one, which is like, yeah, I could make it and I'm willing to make it at some point, but I'm not, I'm just not ready right now. Right? And then there's never. And what I have found, um, is that as we start doing, doing the immense, we realize how much we get out of making that immense. And all of a sudden those ones that shift from, I'm not really ready or I'm not really willing or never start shifting up the list and all of a sudden they're in a different category. Right? So, um, that's, that's kinda, that's the eighth step, uh, for me. And, uh, the ninth step I would. I'll tell you, I'll just tell you a couple of stories about, uh, my immense process and, um, and then we'll have some time for Kath to talk about hers and, uh, we'll go from there. But, uh, when I first, first of all, I didn't want to say, uh, the, uh, those middle six, right, four through nine. We have this like really beautiful symmetry. Symmetry in there that I love helps my brain process everything, right? We have four and five, which is getting right with ourselves. We have six and seven, which is getting right with God. We have eight and nine, which is getting right with others in four, six and eight. We look inward and we make a list in, in five, seven, and nine. We act outward on that list with the help of God. And sometimes with the help of others, right? Um, Kath brought it up earlier this week when she was like, you know, the original fourth step that I did before I learned how to come to AA was here's this asshole and here's why he's an asshole. And then we stopped, right? What this process has allowed me to do is I get to write down where I'm the asshole. And then I identify from that, those character defects. And then I identify from that, those character defects. And then I identify from that, those character defects. And then from that, I'm able to ask God to change the behavior. The difference here is what used to happen was I usually get caught, right? Doing something crappy. And then I'd have to admit to somebody that I did something crappy, right? So I've done four and five in a way. I've skipped six and seven entirely. And then I've gone, now forgive me. I'm sorry. Now forgive me, right? And then inevitably, I'd go and do the exact same thing again. Because I haven't changed any behaviors. I think the really important part for steps eight and nine is that we're actually changing behaviors in steps six and seven. And for me, like looking back, this wasn't something I was consciously doing at the time. But looking back, I think that the character defects that I was able to quickly start to act on and get rid of quickly, those amends, those amends, are the ones that became available for me to make where those were the exact character defects that I needed to write. Okay. So I went and did, I did four and five with Timmy. We talked about six and seven. I actually, I swindled the treatment center into giving me like a four-day pass to go camping in the woods by myself in New Hampshire, which was fun. I read Drop the Rock while I was out. They're in the middle of the woods. And I came back and I started my amends process. My amends process, I started while I was living at that treatment center. So the very first amends that I made were to people that I was living with, right? Which I do think is important. I mean, like, yeah, what, those are the people we're bumping into every single day, right? When Bill was talking about, you know, we got to, we got to make amends to our creditors. His creditors were people that you knew their first name and you were walking down the street, right? You're going to bump into Dave, right? Who gave you the name? Who gave you that $1,500 loan, right? And that's like a little bit, that's a little bit different today. But just the people that I'm bumping into at a constant basis, I think those amends need to be made like immediately, right? We write that situation as quickly as we possibly can. And the first amends I made, and I had these two resentments and two amends that were essentially identical to two guys that I lived with. And they lived right across the hall from each other upstairs, right? So I went in and I made the first amends. And I... I, you know, kind of told the guy what I was about, right? He understood in a loose way what the process was. He understood the word, right? And so I came in and I essentially, you know, I made an appointment with him. I made sure that he was okay with it. I showed up and I said, like, here's the ways that I believe that I have wronged you, right? And I essentially listed the ways that I believe that I have wronged him. And then I said, is there anything that I've left out? And his response immediately was, Andy, I just want to tell you, like, everything that you're doing is, like, really awesome. And I'm really sorry about, like, all the stuff I said to you. And, like, it's been really, like, inspirational to see you, like, doing all this stuff. And I, like, just want you to keep doing the same thing, man. So when I got to the place of, like, what can I do to make things right? Or what can I do to be helpful in the future? He was like, keep doing what you're doing. And I'm on this high, man. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm going to make amends to everybody. This is amazing. This is amazing, right? And I walk across the hall. I'm sure you can see where this is going, right? I walk across the hall. I make the exact same amends. I mean, like, I probably didn't need two sheets of paper. It was the exact same problem with the exact same type of guy in the exact same type of way. And I made the amends. And I got to the place where, have I left anything out? And he had a laundry list of things for me. And then I got to the place of, where? What can I do to make things right? Or what can I do to be helpful in the future? And he said, you see me in the hallway? Just keep it moving. I was like, okay. Right? Like, just don't talk to me. Don't make eye contact with me. And I was just like, okay, you got that. Right? Fair. And, you know, I talked to my sponsor about it. And he's like, all right, well, you got your answer. Keep doing what you're doing. Don't look at this guy. In the eye. Just keep moving. Right? And anything in between, like, jump off a cliff or buy me a Lamborghini, I think it's reasonable. Right? It's what they choose. Right? It's reasonable. And what happened was, I absolutely did that for the remainder of the time that I was at that house. And eventually, we got to a place where, every now and then, he'd kind of make a civilization. He'd have a civil interaction with me. Kind of make it known that it was okay for me to, like, say hello or agree that the thing on the TV was stupid or whatever. Right? And by the time we left that house, he was not an enemy. Right? Certainly, we could call him a friend. Right? But here's the thing. If I had never made that amends, and I end up down on Main Street, I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. And I see him doing the little two-step on the sidewalk in a rough spot, glassy eyes, just one out, one way or the other, looking for help. If I never made that amends, I don't think I'd be able to help that guy. I'm not talking to Andy. He's an asshole. Right? Right? But because I made that amends, I am still useful. Right? And I believe wholeheartedly that if I saw that guy on the side of the road today, right, if he needed help, and I offered it, I think he'd at least be willing to talk to me. Right? And that's the number one thing in this process, is to be useful to others, especially other alcoholics. So I think that that was like a big deal. You know? Shortly after that, the first amends that I made out of the house was to my mom. And there was a lot there. And I owed her money and all these things. And I had sort of a payment plan with her. And when we got to the place of what can I do to be helpful, what can I do to make things right, right? She said, I just want you to be trustworthy. Trustworthy. I just want to be able to believe what you're telling me. Right? And, like, I still had a ton of character defects, but that was one where I was, like, I was ready to do that. And to this day, I've written more resentment inventory on my mom than any other human being. By, like, a factor of ten, probably. Right? We're at each other's, like, wits ends with each other. Right? Right? Right? Right? We're at each other a lot. Okay? But I tell her the truth today. You know? Tell her I don't lie to her. And this morning, she took our kid to watch you sit. You know? He's safe. He's happy. His grandmother got to see him. You know? We're able to be a family unit today. And she trusts me. She believes me. She no longer picks up the phone worrying. She doesn't want to be the one that's saying that something's wrong. Right? And I have a ton more of inventory things, or ninth step amends thing I can say, but I have no idea where we are in time right now. Yeah, we're good. We have plenty of time. Go ahead. Can we do another one? Yeah, we have another half hour. Oh, great. So, the bulk of my amends needed to be made in the circuit. Syracuse, Buffalo area. Right? Syracuse and Buffalo about two hours apart from one another. And I made just about all the amends that I could make in the Worcester area, but I was only running around here for like 30 days. Right? So, it was basically the people that I had met in recovery and my mom. Like, those were the people that I could make immediate amends to. And then I... I got this job, and they told me I was supposed to go teach a class, like a training out in Rochester. Right? So, they were going to send me to Rochester. This is a great opportunity. Right? So, I talked to my sponsor about it, and he was like, great. So, I ended up, after the training was done in Rochester, drive the hour to Buffalo, where a lot of amends needed to be made. And... It's pretty cool. I actually flew Timmy out. I like... I paid for his plane ticket back then. It was 88 bucks for a plane ticket from Logan to Buffalo. And... And he went around with me, and I picked him up from the airport, and it's like 2, 3 in the afternoon. Right? And he's like, all right. So, who's on the list? Who are we doing first? Right? And I'm like, well, this person's at work, and this person's at work, and this person I can't get a hold of, but that's probably because they're at work, and this person's also at work. And this person's working. And then he's like, wait. Wait, wait, wait. What about this one right here? Like, those are your old employers that you worked for. I mean, like, they're at work, and that's the whole point. So, like, maybe you could call them up. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I don't want to make those amends. Right? And this was... It was a husband and wife that owned this business, and I really, really disliked these people. I specifically disliked him. And she was technically the president, it was technically a woman-owned business, but it was mostly just this guy. And, yeah, she was, like, along for the ride. I had... Most of my resentment was against this guy, right? But also her for co-signing it, right? And, look, there was some shady business practices. I was asked to do some things that were verging on illegal, right? And I had what I thought was, like, justified reasons to, like, hate these people. But the reality of the situation was is that I had stolen a ton of time from them. I would get... They'd go, like, hey, how long will it take you to do this thing? And I'd go, probably, like, four or five days, right? When it would actually take me, like, four to six hours, right? And I'd just... I'd coast on that and be messed up the whole time I was at work, right? I'd be out very late partying the night before. I'd come in reeking of booze. I'd, like, do some stuff to get me up so I could get that two hours of work done in the morning and then get some stuff done with landing gear to get me down in the afternoon, right? And I was doing it all while I was there, right? I came into work one day and realized after I sat down that I was wearing a shirt that my cat had pissed on. Like, imagine working with that guy. Imagine that guy as your employee. Like, I was a mess, okay? So I called this guy up and asked him if I could come in and told him I wanted to talk to him. And they said, sure. And Timmy kind of talked with me about, like, what the event was going to be and I, you know, I had some stuff written. And I came down and I prayed before I went in and I went down and I, I think maybe I told the guy that I wanted to, like, sit down with his wife first, which I think also sketched him out even more. I think he thought that I was coming there to, like, try and, like, tell, like, blackmail them or get litigation on it or something weird like that, you know? And I sat down with both of them and basically, like, just came clean about it. Everything. Like, look, I was completely messed up the entire time I was there. I lied to you guys through your teeth, or through my teeth. Like, here's all the things that I did. I, I, I stole your time. I, I was disrespectful and, and all these things and, and, and I want to know what I can do to make it right. And, and then I eventually got to talk to him and, and, and I was pretty well received by his wife and then I got to talk to him. And he had some. He had some interesting questions for me. There was, it was interesting because there were extra things that actually weren't lies that he believed were lies and would reasonably because I, I was lying about everything, right? There was a whole situation with actually, like, an FBI case that had to, like, this tangential thing that I was, like, a witness with. And I had to, like, go, like, during work hours, go talk to the FBI. And he was, like, convinced that that was all made up, right? Right. And I was, like, it's not, it's not made up, like, but I did tell you I was going to go. I did, I did only have to go in, like, twice and I told you that I went in there, like, five times. So I lied a little bit. But they were both so blown away with the honesty and so receptive and I walked out of there and I felt, it's funny. I've been listening to this. Speaker tape that was recommended to me called Catch the Buzz or LH and he talks about, like, this buzz that we get from being sober and being in recovery. And man, dude, like, the high that I was on when I walked out of that place, I literally came in the car. I felt like I was floating. I came in the car. I sat down next to Timmy and I'm going, I said, my exact words for him were, I feel like I just got a bell ringer. There might be some people in the audience that knows what that means. means but it's when you do a lot of coke at once right you get a bell ringer it's like in the back of your brain like that's how I felt when I did that amends and it says in here in the ninth step we take the bit in our teeth sometimes it's harder to go to an enemy or than a friend right but it's but what we get out of it is so much greater so much greater I'm so grateful that I went and made that amends if Timmy didn't if Timmy didn't come there with me and he didn't say like whoa wait a minute and forced me to go do that I never would have had that experience and because of that like because of making that singular amends like there's no amends that I don't want to make all right I had other ones that were like worse than that right where where maybe I I had done more wrong or it was more embarrassing or whatever right but because of going and doing that one it was just like it's on I'm ready to do all of them there is no reason why I would not want to make an amends only good will come of it I will always feel better from doing it right and it makes me more useful to other people right the the point of making the amends is that anybody can walk through that door right now and my side of the street is clean I can hold my head high I do not have to run and hide I do not have to lie right I can be honest about anybody that walks in the door right now and that's that's pretty impressive for someone like me I think uh uh I lived in fear of who was going to walk through that door for many years there were many skeletons in the closet many people that I was like I got to avoid that person the rest of my life all right and um yeah I wish I could sit here and tell you that I've made every single amends on my list um but I've made every single one that uh I think I've been able to there's one that I always comes up when I bring this I like uh I stole money from a pizza place that I used to work at when I was like 19 and I just need to go hand them money and I just keep forgetting every time I go to Syracuse I just need to go there and just here's 300 bucks there you go did you know on the Super Bowl if you just uh there's so many pizzas being ordered that if you're delivering pizzas you can just kind of throw away one of their seats and then pocket the money did you know that yeah I figured that out one Super Bowl Sunday yeah not good um so that's like the that's like the the last big one that I need to make and I just need to remember to do it the next time we go back to Syracuse it's so stupid that I keep forgetting um I think that's all I wanted to say about that thanks Andy um yeah making amends like Andy said like all these people came from the lists in my four steps so it was like easy to um and then there were like additional names and institutions that might have popped up um there's like a lot of really great instructions in the big book around like how we could go about these um but I think like something that was just really important was that was that each one is unique and each one I needed to discuss with my sponsor and I didn't need to like I didn't need to like I didn't need to like I didn't need to like I do not advise and I was advised not to go rogue doing any amends you know like like oh like feeling great time to like get out there and just start saying sorry to people you know because that's that's not what this is um you know this was about me like identifying harm I had done in my life direct and indirect and to then identify okay so like what is it how is it that I believe I have harmed this person and I might be able to look at my turnaround to help me with that and there might be some really specific like items that I need to name because that person who's like hearing this amends like I know that like me saying like that this probably harmed you a lot will mean will be meaningful to them but that because it means a lot to me when I think back on the way that I affected the person you know and after I share that I need to be quiet and ask them like is there any other way that I've harmed you that I haven't that I haven't acknowledged you know and and give them the space and time to say anything that comes to mind and that's their time you know they say in here under no condition do we criticize this person or argue with them and like those kinds of instructions in here are like they're like absolutes so like this isn't where I get to like defend myself or like you know but wait a second you you know like that's not what this is about um our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to the to God and the people about us and um and that's what like the amends process frees me up to do like it's like yeah like look across the street like imagine like a person that's like you know like you're like you're like you're like you're like you're like you're that you'd see across the street from you and you'd be like walking the other way you know what I mean like somebody who like you wouldn't want to like necessarily like make eye contact with it's like I don't want that to ever happen like someone comes into an AA meeting you know like I want them to see me and be like at ease not like oh shit you know because like that's that's what I want today right I want to be of service and if I have ick with people that is unresolved then like I cannot be of service um I think finance financial amends is so important also because there is a period of time in early sobriety where I wouldn't pick up the phone because of debt collectors and so like somebody might I might have given somebody my phone number at an AA meeting and now what I can't pick up though like phone like random phone number like random phone number like random phone number like random phone number phone numbers because I'm worried that it's going to be you know somebody from like the credit card company it's like that's not that doesn't align with my new way of living so um so I had to get on a payment plan you know like the financial amends like it needed to be whatever I could consistently do on a monthly basis right and that's really humbling I think so many of us like we have this ego where we just want to like pay the debt be done with it and uh sometimes that's just like not you're not like financially capable to do that you know um whether it's a credit card company or it's like a family member that you owe money to like you know that is even harder like I remember sponsoring somebody and like she was a single mom on a really tight budget and she owed her aunt the sum of money and she was she had to pay her $15 a month for like two years and it was humbling you know and eventually she did it but what what that shows is like it's consistent action you know that's the best thing that we can do in the amends process is show people because our behavior will convince them more than our words so um with uh with my amends with my parents like I can remember my mom and dad were pretty concerned about me for a really long time um my amends with my mom was like very well received because um she's an Al-Anon and she knows what this deal is all about and whatnot um she did need to tell me a lot of the ways that I affected her um my mom lost like 15 pounds over the case of like over the duration of like my 安 xid my mom lost like 15 pounds over the case of like over the duration of like my and she did need to tell me a lot of the ways that I affected her um my mom lost like 15 pounds over the period of like my alcoholism like it was like physically draining on her like she was like not well um and uh yeah she she told me all these like you know like there was so many sleepless nights there was so much like like just worrying and not knowing if you were alive you know I would lose my cell phone like every weekend in college you know I was like nobody knew what if I was like alive um and so like the what she wanted from me when I said like what can I do to repair the damage and like make it right with you she was like I want you to call me every single day I want to know that you're okay every single day and I was just like okay that's like I can do that today you know like I can be of service and let my mom know and ask her if she's okay right like like it was always like she was always tracking me down and like nowadays it's like you know so it's like I could start to call her and make it make our relationship be about her well-being which is important um I got to make amends to so so when you talk about like the different like categories of people like my oldest brother Sean was in the category of like not ready you know like I was not ready to make that amends when I was at the point where I was starting to make amends he was still in active alcoholism and um and it was really ugly and I just didn't I was like that's that doesn't I don't think that's gonna go well you know and so they said you know there's instructions on what to do if um you know if we're not sure then we continue to pray for the willingness until it comes you know and so like I was instructed to like pray for the willingness to make amends to Sean for like until I realized and it became clear that I was ready to do that and so I remember reaching out to him when that time you know became really apparent and um and trying to make an appointment with him and he would he was like yeah yeah sure you know like and then like the day came and uh and I like call him to like confirm that like you know and he just like blows me off and um and that happened like three more times probably and it was just a lesson in like patience and God's timeline um that this was just this was an amends that like it wasn't meant to happen on those days it probably would have gone really poorly you know like that was God's plan you know and um but the day that he did come to my apartment for the amends I had written it all out ahead of time I was like very careful like very like nervous that I was gonna say the wrong thing and I talked about like being like really judgmental of him for his alcoholism and pushing a solution on him that he wasn't ready to hear making AA really unattractive like in my behavior and I was like I don't know I don't know I don't know over the years and like essentially like pushing him away from me um through those actions and like making him feel like like he couldn't trust me anymore he couldn't be like real with me anymore you know and acknowledging all of that acknowledging like some of like the really big fights we'd had over the years and how like I like made things worse instead of making things better you know um and not providing him support and love and um you know he like he like listened to all of that and then um you know I was like so like you know what can I he was like Kath like I just like missed having you as like one of my best friends like growing up we were like best friends you know and um and we haven't been friends in so long like like this is like this is like my big brother who like took care of me when I was little you know like when I was born he was six years old like I was his brother and he was like his baby and um and we were like best friends growing up and like I'd push such a wedge between us because of alcoholism you know a thing that you would think I understand how to be compassionate about and um he was just like I just like miss you so much I just want to be friends again you know and that was that was so long ago that we had that conversation and um and the ups and downs of like Sean's recovery have been like in no way contingent on like our relationship from that point forward like and that is because of God you know like God allowed us to like form that bond again and um and and Sean's never been like an AA person I mean here and there he's but like we don't do sobriety the same way and like I can still love him I can still set boundaries he's a huge part of like my children's lives you know I was like texting with my mom last night how's it going you know and she's like great you know Jackson was out for the birthday party but Sean came over and he did um he did water coloring with Everett at the table and they just water colored for like an hour just the two of them and um and that's like who my brother is like he's like just the most like loving soul and um and I think that what I've learned to accept through this process and like what the amends gave me was like that I get to have this relationship without strings attached you know expectations of like you being the version of you that I that I had hoped you would be no I get to love you and accept you for exactly who you are right now and um and uh living on borrowed time I mean I've felt for like almost 20 years with my brother and um I'm sure like my mom feels that way with all three of us to some degree you know but it's like I'm so grateful today like that I just never thought my kids would even like know my brother really I just didn't think he'd be a part of their lives and I think that if I had chosen to have these like these rules of like if he's not going to do life this way that he's not going to be in our life and I'm so grateful that God allowed me to let go of that and just let him be and I'm so grateful that God allowed me to let go of that and just let him be him like be who he is and love him completely um and uh and the amends process is like what comes after and so like I make mistakes absolutely and I own it I like my mom has a habit of always having us be on speakerphone anybody ever experienced this with their parents that like generation above anyway okay so it'll the littlest things right like I don't I you know Sean still is Sean like he has a seizure disorder due to his alcoholism he has pretty intense seizures when he is detoxing he's on seizure meds now he can't work anymore there's like circumstances around his life that are like really unfortunate and it's also just like it's not my life he doesn't live with me and um but like when we're talking about things like he's a piece of the puzzle and like I said something uh on like coming up to Thanksgiving about like whether or not Sean would be like reliable and it was like not it wasn't like a great comment you know when I was on speakerphone and then like I realized it and then like five seconds after I hung up I called my brother directly and was like I'm really sorry that I said that that was me being like controlling frustrated running on stress not hopeful at all that I made that comment I love you and I really want you to be at Thanksgiving with us you know like it takes five seconds today for me to like have the awareness to want to repair anything that I've said or done with my family and with people in life you know like the lag time is really short nowadays when I make mistakes which I do you know um I was sponsoring this woman when I was a really new sponsor it's like really funny to look back on it because I feel like I did so many things wrong but I was like trying my very best but I was like in my 20s I was sponsoring this young woman who was about 19 at the time and um and we're all trying to like get be sober but also like have fun and um and you know we at one point we had a we had like a misunderstanding and she had like a crush on some guy in AA and you know like we're all like single young people trying to like help each other stay sober and um and and she ended up feeling like really hurt that I had been like flirting with somebody that she had had a crush on or whatever she ended up deciding to fire me as her sponsor and um that's totally her decision you know like she she felt uncomfortable she didn't want me to sponsor her anymore and so like I got to talk I got to get guidance from my own sponsor about the situation and pray and reach out to her made amends to her for my behavior and the ways that I had affected her and made her feel really uncomfortable and like express how much I hope that she continued this work with another person that she felt comfortable with and um amazing like she she you know continues this work she ends up living in Boston getting sober she's sponsoring other women and like living this sober life and um she reaches out to me years later to make amends to me for this whole situation you know and um and she comes to my apartment that day to to talk with me and um we ended up spending like the whole day together you know like I didn't have anything going on that day and her her presence was there and we had this amazing conversation and connected and um you know we ended up like meditating going for a walk and I felt like so blessed to be on the receiving end of an amends and um and then um and then she she she got this idea that she could be like a bartender again you know and uh because she's still like really young she just like seems like she'll be able to do fun stuff being a bartender anyways she ended up um relapsing and dying like a year later and um and it was like uh it was like a really heartbreaking experience for all of us we all loved Annie so much and um and uh I I feel like really really grateful that I got to have that like really meaningful day with her where we like connected and spirit was present and um and we're we were both we're both acknowledged that we're like very flawed human beings and I think that's what this process continues to reveal to me is that like I am like this this flawed human being attempting to have this like spiritual journey with other flawed human beings and uh and we bump into each other along the way and um and we continue to like you know try to repair the damage done in those bumps um and sometimes I pause before the bump happens and that's a beautiful thing too um oh wow you anything else you want to say about eight and nine yeah um it's great to hear you guys I uh uh four and nine I think are uh connected in my brain for the fact that like uh this is when we see people exit uh people talk about exit four right a lot of people don't don't get past four and then they go and then they go oh I relapsed while I was on four right and you talk to them and you realize like no dude you like had to hand in homework and then you like delayed handing in homework for x amount of months days or years right you weren't working step four right you were going weeks or months in between doing any inventory and eventually the thought came to your mind suddenly right that maybe it would be okay if insert whatever right because you're without defense against the first drink so they went out while they're on step four right no talk to people about it right step four is not fun to do right and that's why we do it every day till we're done there's nothing that says that you have to be on it for you know a year or even like six months right um I you know obviously listen to your sponsor's guidance you know I think people have different feelings about like how many how much should go on and that's all fine um but uh the the other one is the other really important one is step nine uh and I think not that they're more important than the rest of the steps it's just they're unique step four is unique because where it is in the process it's the first time that you have to hand in homework step nine is unique because it's the first time that you're going out and interacting with normal human beings right I can say some wild shit to my sponsor I can say some wildly offensive shit to other people in a day we're all crazy right it's okay right like what I say to my sponsor like like you know sponsees say crazy stuff to me all the time I usually just laugh right like okay like let's uh let's try and recalibrate here uh and uh and that's fine but like for me to go out to somebody that I've harmed in the past and then possibly open that wound again and do more harm it's really really important that we're in a good place and the other thing I'm reminded of is uh uh I believe it's Don Pritz Don P Jerry's sponsor the guy we keep talking about uh he uh he's he I've he would say you know once we've brought somebody to step five right it's now our job as a sponsor to kind of make sure we're bringing them along right because the way that he the way that he's uh his metaphor for it is like imagine you go into a baby's room a sleeping baby and you wake him up you scream you wake him up now that baby's crying that baby's awake it's crying it doesn't know what's going on it's been here for the first time this has ever happened to it and you leave it you just walk out the door and you leave it you let it keep crying right how horrible would that be right step five we're waking people up right all of a sudden you're beginning to have a spiritual experience and I've had uh I've had a number of guys where you know I kind of uh you know I've I've the pendulum has swung back and forth very far being a sponsor uh through the years of like you know that that first like six months dragging people by the scruff of their neck and spectrum like hey man you're here for me bud you gotta quiet that imperious urge we gotta sit down right now right right to to um you know I'm I'm uh hey I got two small children I've got a full-time job I'm traveling for work look if you if you don't want to do this that's fine right but I do feel an obligation um once I've done a fifth step with somebody I feel an obligation to remind them like hey we gotta we there's more amends to be made there's more work to be done there's people that need you to sponsor them there's people that are going to need you to do the fifth step with them right because they need to hear your specific experience because you need to go save lives they're waiting for you right and um yeah so I think this like this this unique uh spot that we've just covered in the steps a lot of people call them like the action steps or whatever right um you know we we we trust God in steps one two and three and here's where we're cleaning house right four through nine we're cleaning house 10 is cleaning house on a daily basis right 11 is cleaning house with myself and God on a daily basis and then in step 12 we help others right um and in the next session when we're talking about 10 and 11 we'll basically talk about how we're just pointing backwards at the other stuff and just going a little bit more deeply or in a slightly different way timeline with the same exact stuff we've talked about right now um but yeah so step exit four step nine is the first time I get to interact with another human being and at step five we wake up the baby screaming at him in the middle of the night so we better not leave him alone that's all I got thanks Andy