Sponsorship and Accountability – I,Johnnie H,Peggy M,Dick M – Sponsorship Workshop – Part 1 of 2 – Clancy M.

Thanks for choosing Dicob Tapes. If you enjoy this tape, you can order other titles from us by calling 1-800-999-3381 or visit our website at www.dicob.com Good afternoon. My name is Dick Martin. I'm an alcoholic. By the grace of God and actions of A.A. and sponsorship, I've been sober since September 15, 1965, and I'm very grateful for that. The reason why I'm up here first is because I have the least sobriety. So you don't want to shine up to me very much. I mean, there's more to come. Hi. When I first came to Alcoholics Anonymous, People talked about sponsorship, and they had a sponsor, and this is my sponsor, and that's my sponsor. And my sponsor told me to do this, and the sponsor told Me to do that. And I was sober, I guess, for a couple of weeks. And the guy who had 12-stepped Me and I were going somewhere. And I said, What's a sponsor? I said I hear all these people talking about a sponsor. What's an sponsor? And he says, I'm a sponsor." I'm your sponsor. Yeah. Now, you may not think that that's very nice. But I'll tell you, if you're not sponsoring anybody, that's a very, very good approach because those guys and gals don't, if they're new, they don't know you can't do that. So I would, you know, if need to pick up a cubby to follow you and if you are going to stay sober and if your going to do what AA says which is to stay sober and to help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety. If you're going to reach out and help others so you can stay sober, not so they can get sober or stay sober but so you can stay silver then you're gonna have to compete with the rest of the animals down here that are looking for looking for newcomers to sponsor. So you're gonna haveto get busy at it. You're just gonna have to reach out. Do you have a sponsor? No? Well I'll be your sponsor. You won't be their temporary sponsor. Don't say temporary sponsor. Just say, I'll be your sponsor. Here's my phone number. What is yours? Start the routine of sponsorship of those things that you did when you came to Alcoholics Anonymous. Share your experience, strength and hope with them. Do what you were taught to do and pass that on to them. Don' t pass on something else just because you've heard some fancy thing doesn' t mean that it's going to work pass on your experience because your experience is believable to the newcomer and some someone else's experience is not uh this fellow suggests i go to a meeting every night for six weeks in that period of time he says you don't have to make up your mind whether you're an alcoholic or not but during this period of Time you'd uh have enough opportunity to figure out whether you're alcoholic or Not and uh also at the end of that period Of Time maybe you'll saved up enough money if you determine that you're not an alcoholic you'll probably have enough to go on a real good bender so uh he acted like he cared but he also acted like he didn't care and uh with that mystery going on i kept on kept on trying to please him so that he would care it never really works you can't please a sponsor i have a sponsor now that I keep trying and trying and trying Johnny keeps trying and it never works it just doesn't happen I but I'd had a sponsor for many years and this is one of the things that ends up happening we became very good friends and not that you can't become good friends with your sponsor but the relationship became a purely and simply based on friendship, and it wasn't based on alcoholics anomalous. It wasn't based on my taking any guidance from him. It wasn'tbased on my asking him what should I do under this circumstance because if I would ask him that and I did he would tell me the most self-serving thing because he was a friend. He was not a sponsor. He had changed. I still needed help and still reached out for it But it didn't work in that fashion. I had moved away from Washington, D.C., where I got sober originally. I was sober about ten years when I moved to Bellevue, Nebraska. In case you don't know where BellevUE, Nebraska is, Omaha is our largest suburb. And I moved out there and tried to do something long distance on the phone and I just started talking to him less and less and less and unfortunately or fortunately I was in a neck of the woods where there were newcomers coming in all the time and it was 1975 when we moved out there and I didn't sponsor anybody continue to sponsor anybody from Washington D.C. I farmed them out to others when I left And I was sponsoring a bunch of guys. I don't know, it was 25 or 30 or something like that. And there was something wrong in my life, and I didn't know what it was that was wrong in my life. You know, if you're a sponsor, you've got to be responsible for what you're doing. It was something like reaching out in the dark, and you know something is out there, but your arm isn't quite long enough to reach it, and keep reaching and reaching. And that's the way I was mentally reacting to this situation. And I finally figured out what I needed to do is I needed to have a sponsor. I mean, I couldn't continue to sponsor these guys if I was not sponsored myself because I didn't have real long-term sobriety. So I tried to make up my mind. There was a couple of people I had in mind. There wasn't anybody there in that area. It was one old guy, old Don Farrell, who's dead now. He died when he was about 42 years sober or something like got, and I asked him to be my sponsor. He said he'd be delighted to, and then he started telling me about the problems he had with his drunken son, you know, what can I do about this dick, and so on and so forth. It ended up that I sponsored him. He didn't sponsor me, and it was really kind of sad because he had isolated himself from the main community of Alcoholics Anonymous. I remember one time asking him, I said, Dom, what can I do about this situation? He said, you've been sober long enough to figure that out. And that isn't helpful. I mean, it wasn't helpful to me and I was, you know, I didn't know what I was going to do. I had in 1978 at the Cornhusker Roundup met Clancy and he and I started, you know, we called each other and talked about some things. We had an interest in the history of AA and other history items. And we became friendly. And he was one person I was considering and then there was another guy I was concerning. And I just didn't, I was just caught on the horns of a dilemma. I didn't know which way to go because I liked and respected both these guys i've been invited out to speak in california uh at sacramento and i went out there and spoke and i thought well when i'm going out there i'll go down and see my friend clancy and go the pacific group because i'd never been there and i was on the plane on the way down from sacramento to la and i talked to myself what i'm gonna do is i'm to ask clancy to sponsor me and then the next thought I had was like a lot of people assume well he's not going to sponsor me with because I have a mustache because he doesn't sponsor people with facial hair so I was so I had heard I'd heard a lot things there were just as much bull crap as that is frankly I got but the idea I had in my mind was very simply if he asked me to shave my mustache off I'll shave it off it's no big deal I'll shave my head whatever he wants me to do I had really surrendered to the idea of sponsorship is what it amounted to I'd surrender to the principal I will do whatever it takes to get the job done I think, frankly, that a pigeon or a sponsee, if you want to be nice about it, or a baby, I think that they would really make good valets and maids, to tell you the truth. because I think that they learn what to do in the right circumstances to be of aid and assistance to their sponsor if they can. And that's what it really amounts to. And because I always picture myself as being an individual who's not emotionally involved with the decisions that are going on in my life, or I better not be. But if I am emotionally involved with a decision in my life, then I talk to my sponsor about it who is not emotionally involved with the decision. And the only trouble is with my emotions is that they tend to override my intellect and make me want to do things that are very self-serving. And my sponsor doesn't like me doing things that are that self-serving because he feels it's not good for me to do that. It's not good for my AA development to do that. And he's absolutely perfectly correct. And so I got down to L.A. and went to the mission. I was talking to Clancy, and I said that I would like to have him to sponsor me. And he said, I'll be glad to, Dick, except I am no longer your friend. and i said oh yes you are and he says you understand don't you and i said i sure do and uh over the years he was you know at first he was very brittle with me i might add and uh i think that i needed that and he needed that he needed to do the things that he did and give me the directions he did to see what i was made of because sponsorship is a two-way street You've got to kind of make up your mind whether you want to sponsor them or not. It's not just a choice of the person who is being sponsored as to whether this gal is going to sponsor him. It's nicht just that choice, but the sponsor has a choice also. It is a two-way street when it comes to that. And he had to make up his mind whether I wanted to do what he asked me to do. And I did what he asking me to. He's been sponsoring me ever since. That was, God, I don't remember when it was, 1986 or something like that. It was a long time ago to me. And it's worked out. It's very successful as far as I'm concerned. I've been sober ever since that time. I've Been Happy and I've Been Productive and I'Ve Been Helpful to Others. I sponsor twice as many people as I did before. And they keep me alive and keep me well and keep my eye on myself. And that's a very synaptic type of description. I call Clancy every week, every Wednesday. And I remember the first time I was supposed to call him, I went to the Pacific Group on Wednesday and came back home and I was suppose to call them the following Wednesday. and because i was unaccustomed to the habit i had no habit of it really i forgot and i thought oh jesus you know the first time the first week and here after i wonder what i can say i can well maybe i can't say i was on a 12-step call maybe maybe i i can stay i was in an airplane you know then i called him up i called them up i decided that what i was going to do is to call him up and say i was wrong and uh that i thought about telling a number of lies but the fact is i just hadn't picked up the habit yet and uh i picked up The Habit Sense every now and then i call on thursday instead of wednesday and uh it's good for clancy to you know when i do that because it gives him an extra day in the week and he reminds me of that But we have a good relationship. We have a great relationship. We have good sponsor-pigeon relationship, and we are also friends. But sponsorship supersedes friendship at all times, and it always will as far as I'm concerned because that's the way I want it and that's what he wants it, and it works much better that way. I had the job of opening up here, and there's going to be three speakers following me, And the second one with the next-to-least sobriety is my wife, who's been sober a year and a half longer than I have. It's not very good sobriery, frankly, but, you know, I taught her everything that she knows. But here's Peg. I'm Peg Martin, and I'm an alcoholic. Through the grace of God and fellowship of people like you and sponsorship, I've been sober since February 4th, 1964. I'm very grateful for that. I would like to try a little exercise, and everybody has to pay attention to this because you have to put your synapses to work. This is a synapse thing. Synapses are those little things that fire in your brain that when you sober up, it helps you remember where you parked a car and stuff. And when we're drinking, they don't fire. But anyway, they have sparks. Anyway, you've got to put your brain cells to work. Okay, what I'm going to do is this is an illustration of the power of sponsorship, the power of this network of sponsorship that we have okay now so everybody has to listen really carefully because there are people that I sponsor who are not in this room but there are peoples that the people that i sponsor sponsor who are in this room you got it and we're going to do the same thing for all four of us and I want you to stand and remain standing and we'll start first with Clancy will everyone that Clancy sponsors stand okay well everyone that Johnny sponsors stand yeah well everyone that dick sponsors stand okay well everyone I sponsor Stan okay now they're in the room there's probably what 15 people no no keep standing keep standing everyone okay is that 15 now I would like everyone that is sponsored by these people to stand okay you're getting it all right now everyone's at sponsored by these people and any of the sponsors that we sponsor that are absent in other words the people that are sponsored by people that I sponsor Stan and Johnny Amka okay now everybody that these people sponsor stand and that these people sponsors stand and let these people sponsors Stan and everyone that the noise sponsors stand and that they sponsor Stan that they sponsor Stan, that they sponsored Stan, okay? That is three-quarters of the room. Thank you. Now, for me, that's the amazing thing about sponsorship. It is not about what I do, but it is essential that I do something. Something. Because without Now, each and every one of us taking time out of our day, out of week, out of month to help other people is essential for my sobriety. This has, you know, it just drives me crazy when people tell me how it is that they're going to do AA. I mean, it's not like I think I've got the corner on it or that my sponsor... I do what my sponsor does. My sponsor is 85 years old. She swims, she paints pictures, she goes to four to five meetings a week. It's the least I can do. For heaven's sakes. She's 86 years old? 85, 86? No, 85 years older. She had her birthday this year. We took her out to dinner. She's 85 years Old. Did you stand up, Sandy? Oh, well, I know, but you should have stood up. You're in the family. Anyway, I have to train her. My God. Anyway, what it does is it starts with one person. It starts with Clancy. It starts with me. It stars with Johnny. It start with Dick. It's starts with Perry. Any place. It starts each of us. We are the power of one and then four and then eight and then 16 you saw that exponentially it got bigger and bigger now if i have three or four people in this room that i sponsor and they have people that they sponsor and so forth and so on why are we limited to this room why is this not why aren't we holding this in the bear's soldier field instead of having the football game well i wouldn't want to do that but anyway why is it that all those people aren't here because they aren't number one they don't want to do what is necessary to do to stick around we wouldn't be able to hold these things if everybody who came to a stayed we'd take over the world and then we'd all get drunk because we couldn't handle the responsibility of taking over the word i guess but we wouldn't it it couldn't happen because i need a sponsor i have always needed a sponsor I have always needed someone to whom I can be accountable, someone I trust, someone I rely on. It's not bad to have a hero in your life. It really isn't. It's the C word. You know, codependent. That's so barfy when you get to going on that stuff. It's barfy. I love this woman. She's a fine woman. I am responsible for being responsible I'm responsible to her I'm accountable to you I'm responsable to the people I sponsor I am responsable to Alcoholics Anonymous for behaving when I don't want to I mean, I don' t want to I like to misbehave I like following my head sometimes I like that but I can' t do it because I' m a responsible citizen i think it's like this for me anyway this has been my experience i'm like a pool a pool and of water i'm a pool of water and what my sponsor says to me is the flow in and what i say to the people i sponsor is the flow out so the flow in and the flow out keep me from getting stagnant and it keeps my program fresh new and always exciting one of the things i always my sponsor has always both sponsors that i've had has always given to me is the love, the enthusiasm for Alcoholics Anonymous. The love of the program and the people of AlcoholicsAnonymous. They have instilled that in me. And it is my responsibility to pass that along. The enthusiasm for all of the parts of the Program of Alcoholic Anonymous, for the steps, the book. There's so many different ways to sponsor people. There's some many different types of people that are sponsored. And, you know, it doesn't matter as long as we're doing the deal. Because there are people I can't sponsor. There are people that are just way too nice. You know, I mean, they mow their grass, they bake brownies. They've got brownie-baking sponsors. They're not like me. You know? They are not football people. They are blood and guts John Madden blow-your-nose-on-the-ground people. I am. My favorite dress is a sweatshirt. I don't wear a sweatschirt up here. because this is to honor alcoholic slums. There are people who are woo-woo. I call them woo-woos. They're like, woo-oo-oo, you know, they're just really woo-oos. I can't sponsor woo-oohs because I'm woo-ool enough without it. You know, I got to get, I just, stick to the basics, you Know. I can not do woo-OO and that sort of thing. But there are people that do woo really good. They are sensitive and they are brighter than me and they can do that sort things. So you, as an individual, have a gift. I don't know what your gift is, but if you have a sponsor, she'll let you know what your gift ist. And that's what I do or try to do instill in the people that I sponsor. I try to get them to be just a little bit better than they ever think they can be because that makes me be a little better than I think I can be. Thank you. And now, I want to introduce you to a good friend of mine, Johnny. Hi everybody, my name's Johnny and I'm an alcoholic. I'm glad to be here today and I'M GLAD TO BE SOBER. I love this subject because the reason I'm standing here safe and sane and sober with over 40 years of sobriety has nothing to do with my own personal ideas on how to stay sober. I'm sober and learned how to stay sober in Alcoholics Anonymous through the firm kind cruel intensive hand of a sponsor who cared more about saving my life than he did about hurting my feelings Peggy went through a little exercise about all the people who have a sponsor well there's a little thing that we must talk about right now that a lot of people don't want to talk about. There's a difference between having a sponsor and being sponsored, and if you don't know the difference between those two things, you may be dead before you figure it all out, because there is a tremendous difference. I know a lot who claim they have sponsors. I don't even know who in hell they are i mean and i also know a lot of people who claim to uh have got a lot of stuff in alcoholics now because they were new with strong sponsorship but by some strange quirk or accident in their head whatever it may be they no longer find it necessary to tell the people they sponsor to do the things that they did when they were knew an alcoholic's not which which I think is a tragedy. Matter of fact, they're really saying to you that they're lying to you about what happened to them when they was new because it ain't good enough for the people that they are sponsoring. I basically still do the same thing today in Alcoholics Anonymous that I did 40 years ago, basically. It hasn't changed because I don't have enough sense to figure out anything any better. when I came to Alcoholics Anonymous when I walked out of a penitentiary in June 4th 1961 I'd had 19 months sitting in a penitenciary reading a book called AlcoholicsAnonymous and to the best of my ability trying to apply those things in there I knew nothing about sponsorship and then I would turn loose on society and probably one of the greatest moments in my life and my sobriety because I was entertained with all this knowledge about the books and the steps and how to be wonderful and in my own privacy, I was really magnificent. It just was wonderful. One of the greatest things that ever happened, I went to a meeting one night where the guy who became my sponsor walked up to me and told me he was going to be my sponsor. And I didn't know what a sponsor was because I gave him that answer that a lot of the intellectual giants pass on in Alcoholics Anonymous. I don't say nothing about no sponsor and no book, baby. and don't say nothing about dances but you seem to be there a lot too for christ's sake and he said i said well what day so i'm going to help you get things done i said okay what do you want me to do he said why do you ask me i said for christ sakes you just told me you were going to be my sponsor he said john if i can't run my life what makes you think i can run yours i said what do you want me to do he said why don't you just do what i do i said when you do what you do then you'll know what i did sponsorship that's it i mean i just cleared the mystery of all this nonsense out of it that's what sponsorship is monkey see monkey do but the monkey has to be a monkey to find of what the monkey does, which is another thing. Alcoholics of my type, self-will run right egotistical maniacs need somebody stronger than them to superimpose this will upon mine because left to my own devices I'd blow my brains out. Left to my owned devices I would destroy myself within a matter of moments or weeks or months or just a matter time. So I have to have somebody leading the way. So for 22 years, I followed a man by the name of Norm Alfie, and if he was still alive, he'd still be my sponsor because one of the things I do not believe in, I do Not believe in sponsor running. I do NOT believe in people running from sponsor to sponsor to sponsor because I don't think Alcoholics Anonymous is supposed to encourage people to run. I think Alcoholic Anonymous was supposed to Encourage people to stay and survive. That's what Alcoholics Anonymous is all about, not running. Norm told me at the very beginning, burn your track shoes, jackass. You ain't going no place. The day before my 22nd birthday, my sponsor dropped dead. And like a lot of people who'd been sober for a period of time and had enjoyed the fruits of sobriety in AlcoholicsAnonymous, who'd gathered a little band of followers around him, who started a couple of meetings and spoken to little places here and there and done a few things in Alcoholics Anonymous, whose ego had just kind of swollen up inside of him and magnetized his magnificence. Realized that he had the best of the best of the rest of the people. The best of it all. You know everything he told you. Just put it into practice. and I spent the next almost year of my life in absolute and total hell it's the most craziest period of my time well, I wasn't thinking about drinking I wasn' t thinking about leaving Alcoholics Anonymous I was thinking I was thinkin' about doin' that what I was thingin' about was running my own life I would get information from me one of my classmates who is now 1961 classmate but lady by the name of Mary Regan who I love very dearly said to me one time something's about going into your own mind use your own thoughts like going into a bad neighborhood all by yourself just and I lived like that for about eight or nine months and I was involved in a situation that I wasn't pleased with it made me uncomfortable to be involved in it was the convention and I was doing things and one of the people who was on the convention where the convention chairman was slightly over medicated from time to time she was seeking through prayer and medication to improve her conscious conduct, I suppose. And I had to wake her up one night to start the banquet. And most of you know that I'm dead set against any type of medication whatsoever. And so a guy comes to me and he said, how come you put up with that stuff? People are sitting in this audience and thinking it must be all right because Johnny doesn't do anything about it. And I fought this dilemma back and forth until I finally came to a profound conclusion with myself that I'm going to resign from the committee. And any person who has run their own life doesn't exactly know exactly whether he's made the right decision or not until he makes the decision that turns out right. And so I thought for a while and thought, well, I just ought to go run this decision that I made of quitting this commitment to Alcoholics Anonymous by somebody who should know, so I called Clancy. and i asked if i come down and talk to him and i went down i talked to him laid this situation out in front of me on his desk and he looked at me and he gave me exactly the same set of actions and answers that i had already implemented who needs a sponsor for christ's sake i got all this together i mean i turned to walk out i got to the door of his office i don't know how many have ever been in clancy's office and I stood there, and I tell you, I can feel it right now. There was a chill went down my neck, and I'll tell you that's about as close to death as I've been sober in Alcoholics Anonymous. I turned around and looked at him and said, Clancy, I need a sponsor. I don't know who would shock more, me or him, for Christ's sake. So he leaned back, put his glasses down on his nose, and I thought he was going to say, what an order, I Can't Go Through With It. And he said, okay. And then I said the frown word that anybody could possibly say to me that wants me to sponsor him. I said to him, what do you want me to do? Now, I'm almost 23 years sober. I'm an active, participating member of Alcoholics Anonymous. I sponsor a lot of people. I've started meetings. I've been to conventions all over the United States. I've got all these things going on for me. But my thing at that moment was, what do you want me to do whatever it was i mean there was no pre-arranged things about it i never laid it out that just came out of me as a result of 22 years of strong sponsorship and he looked at me and he said i want you to call me every day and i want to come to the wednesday night meeting that will be a start 19 years later I still call him every day and I still go to the Wednesday night meeting a guy said to me one day do you still call Clancy every day and I said yes I do he said why and I says he hasn't told me not to yet I mean it helps if you have a little brain damage when you come to Alcoholics Now. I'm a lot like Peggy. You know, I just don't... Well, this is really the truth of the matter. The people who can't make it in the Pacific group end up in Bellflower. I mean, they're too sick, and if we can't get them to Bellflower, we ship them to Orange County. We just pass them right down the deal there. They go through there. But it's been a long, happy relationship, And I love Clancy very dearly, and he is probably the best friend I have in this world. But we don't separate our friendship and our sponsorship. We have a lot of fun together. We spend a lot OF time together. We talk about a lot Of things together. And I run a lot OF things by him because I still see I'm one OF those type OF people who need to go TO five or six meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous a week, even after all these years i'm one of these people who still need to have a sponsor who's stronger than my head who i rely on who's sober longer than i am who's more active than iam because i'll tell you i don't want to do it i uh had dinner with my sponsor thursday night and he was speaking at one of our little meetings down in long beach and as he wanted to do he went out to the car after dinner and had a little nap and it was my well they tell me to do it because nobody else wants to do it. They told me, you get to go wait Clancy up and tell him it's time for the meeting. And so I went out and knocked on the window. We're walking back to the parking lot, and I was telling him, I said, God sponsor, I'm building up a little resentment. And he said, about what? I said I got to get on one of them damned airplanes tomorrow and start flying again. And I've been home three or four weekends in a row, and it's getting awful good to me and he said me too me too he said it does get kind of nice he said just think we get to go back out and stand in those security lines delayed airplane flights we've got to do all those kind of things after our nice cozy thing and then in essence see that's what sponsorship means to me left to my own devices running my own life I'd have been so comfortable that I I forgot about the We Are Not Saints convention in Chicago. Left to my own devices, it wouldn't have been necessary for me to fulfill my commitment to Alcoholics Anonymous and to the All Saints Convention in Chicago, Illinois. Left to My Own Devices, I would have had to experience the warmth and the love of the friendships and the friends I've made for years and years and hours in AlcoholicsAnonymous. I wouldn't be able to sit down and try to be some type of example to the few people that I sponsored in this area. Left to my own devices without sponsorship, I'd be on a golf course right now in 70 degrees weather in Southern California. When you think about that, that's not such a bad idea after all. But I really believe in sponsorship. It's my salvation. I wouldn't no more think about being without a sponsor when I think about flying around the room, but it has its good points and its bad points. And I want to tell you a story about Clancy because I'm not he you seek. He sits in that little seat. There he is over there. I'm going to introduce him when I get through talking. A few years ago, as most of you know, most of your friends will know, my mother who had a tough time with alcohol got very sick in her last months of her life and i got a call one day from the hospital where she was at and they said i had to come in and talk to some surgeons because she developed gangrene below both legs and they were going to have to do some amputation and i was the only one who would be responsible enough for so i went over there and talked to the surgeons it was on a Friday and I said, well, I make a decision for you Monday. And I called Clancy and told him I was going to do and what was going on. And he said, okay, well let me know. So over the weekend I made a decision that I was gonna, I couldn't let her lay there and rot with gangrene. So I was just going to have her amputate her legs. And she was 87 years old and not in very good health. And so on the way to the hospital Monday morning to meet with the surgeons, I thought I better check this decision out again. You know what I mean, I had two or three days to make up my mind. So I called my sponsor, my kind and loving sponsor. And I said, Clancy, I'm on my way to the hospital to make a decision with a surgeon what to do with my mother's leg. And he said, well, what have you decided? And I says, well I've decided she's going to have to have the amputation because she got gangrene and I can't let her ride. He said, that's a good decision. He said but you can look at it another way if you want to, Johnny. And I say, God, how would I look at her? I got really excited. He said you don't have to worry about her getting drunk and falling down anymore either. I don't know what that did for you but that made me laugh I pulled over to the side of the road and started laughing and I just couldn't quit laughing but that's what it's all about Dick talked about see, I'm emotionally involved in all this thing this is my little mother she's 87 years old she's drank herself half to death and I've got to go over there and make these decisions about cutting this little old lady's legs off. And I've made this decision, it's a terrible dilemma that I'm in, and I don't know what to do because I'm all wrapped into it because it's my mother. You understand? And my sponsor took that out of my hand. My sponsor, in his beautiful way of putting things to me, and that is a beautiful way to put things to a guy like me because that, to me broke up my emotional involvement and my sadness if you're not being actively sponsored if you are not spending time with your sponsor if you aren't running these things by your sponsor or if you have a sponsor who is not busier than you or more active in Alcoholics Anonymous than you who isn't sober longer than you then I suggest you find one who is because i would not think about that i've been through that dilemma once before and i don't ever want to go through it again and now without any further ado for me it'd be my great pleasure to mention the man who i am betting my life day by day year by year is right my beloved sponsor Clancy. My name is Clancy Emerslin and I'm an alcoholic. I've been profoundly touched by all I've heard up here today. Only one thing, I wish you'd have given me a little more of your time. That would be sincere, that would be sincere but i'm very glad to be here this afternoon i'm glad this is a very very important topic i uh i know nothing in a sense that is more important after sobriety than sponsorship not formal sponsorship necessarily but being of service to others you're trying to help people at johnny's meeting the other night i was recapping the 12 steps and we talked about the 12th step and and that you can't always be a sponsor although what dick says you want People say, I'll be your sponsor. But you can always help. You can find new people who are lost and you can be kindly to them and such dumb things as have a cup of coffee with them and simulate interest in their goofiness and give them a ride home and do these things. I had a lot of sponsors over the years and since I could never identify as an alcoholic deep within me, I they became like people who I thought should help me some to some degree and I had uh different places where I worked I had different needs in Dallas I had a bunch of little kids and one of them was sick so I got a sponsor who was a child doctor and we used him and in El Paso I worked on the newspaper so I Got The City editor of the newspaper to be my sponsor and you just have people who are able to be of service to you and I didn't stay sober in these places nor because I had no concept it was wrong and I think I was the sponsor I had in Los Angeles was a man who uh I never wanted to have any long-term relationship with and he turned out to be my sponsor which I'll get into the details that maybe a little bit later tonight but he got me to take actions in AA, and I developed some begrudging respect for him. And I found myself taking little stupid, dumb actions in AAA that I never would take. They're demeaning, the stupid little things, because I wanted him to like me. I didn't give a damn about AA. It doesn't work for people like me, but I want him to Like Me. And the great thing about AA, of course, is that the actions don't care why you take them. As long as you take them you start to change and he became my sponsor was my sponsor for some for three about three and a half years and saved my literally saved my life and he used to tell me the same old hackney things you got to do these things if you don't get it don't do these Things You'll Get Drunk and Die and I oh yeah don't give me the pep talk just and after he's sober but all over three years he got mad at the Pacific Palisades meaning that he'd found it until they changed the format without notifying him and he got mad at some other things and he stopped going to any meetings i guess he'd begin volunteering at synanon which was a rattle and i said to him you know bob gia should you be going to me and he he was quite testy about it must have been a little i look back he probably was a little sensitive he said you know i taught you how to stay sober i told you these things for god's sakes don't come around and tell me how to do things and pretty soon he got more and more tested I didn't see him but I tried to call him once in a while he wouldn't return calls he got into a little bit of psychoanalysis because of his depression that he was mounting and then started taking medications classic pattern eventually drank and died drunk and the people said to me are you going to get drunk now you're not wrapped too tightly at best and now your sponsor is drunk and dead and I had to tell him no he certainly proved what he said was true you know he said if you don't do these things you get drunk and that convinced me and it did and like John I did not have a sponsor because I was doing quite well by now and I went two or three years without a sponsor I tried out a couple of guys they weren't up to my standards on my seventh day birthday I was the Sunday afternoon speaker at the Southern California Convention and I was working in television I was a promotion director Another guy I had just created, the number one hard rock station in America, KHJ Boss Radio. And I was now working in television and I was slicker than snot. And my wife and children had come out from Texas so I was able to talk about them whenever I talked. Which incidentally was a... I shouldn't say that, I'm not safe to say it here. No one will snitch back home, will they, Linda? But I was doing pretty well actually And I could go out to meetings and say, you know, I don't have my wife and children anymore. I'm alone over at 2618 Oak Street. And people would cry and tell me how beautiful it was. And then my family came, and all of a sudden here's a whole bunch of kids and dogs and cats. I can't get in the bathroom for days at a time. And I'd go to meetings just trying to look for help, and they'd say, well, you're happy now, aren't you? But anyway, the Sunday afternoon meeting, they had a Sunday afternoon meet, and I spoke, and there was really something. The leader was Ginny G., who was a woman I sponsored, and the first speaker was a guy I sponsored. And the guy who read Chapter 5 was a man I sponsored and then I talked and halfway through the meeting an old woman named Polly Hall who was a one eyed old herodin she came down the aisle with my seven year birthday cake and they stopped the meeting and sang thanks Polly just like seven years ago I was thrown out of a skid row mission with my teeth kicked out and here I am just about as wonderful as they come and I was coming back from that convention late that afternoon my wife was in the front seat and a guy sponsored in the back seat named Tommy O'Mara and I came up to Grapevine which is kind of a winding road and suddenly thought things are really going good down the road they're not going to stay good because there's ups and downs but if I really had a bad time who would I call and I went through a bunch of names and I could not think of anybody up to my standards in Alcoholics Anonymous maybe Bill Wilson at one time but now that he was in Niacin I didn't want to call him I don't go for them dopers it wasn't dope at all but when you're wonderful that's what you think and I thought who could I call I thought people like Chuck Chamberlain Well-known speaker, well-known aide, but just a little too smarmy for my taste. I mean, I remember when I was new living in the backseat of an abandoned car at the club, back at the A Club, and on Easter, oh, our beloved Chuck is going to come on Easter. Who cares? And on Easter morning, he'd come in, sweep in, and people would flock to him. Oh, Chuck, Chuck. And I'd sit in the front row when they introduced him. I got up and left just to punish him. I don't know if the meeting continued or not. But who wants to go to someone and say, oh turn it over to God we're all God's kids. And I suddenly had a sudden thought. I am probably as close to being drunk as I've ever been since the moment I had my last drink. because I'm now about to do something that I watch people do, float off the top of AA. We always talk about going to the bottom but boy they float off to the top. I no longer need to go to AA or meetings. I walk hand in hand with God. And it's pretty touching until one day God gives them a beer and here they come. Now I've got to get a sponsor. And the only one I know ahead of me who is significantly more active than I am is Chuck Chamberlain, as much as I hate it. I'll give the old fool a break. And I called him up that night when I got home and I said, Chuck, this is Clancy Emerson. He says, oh yes, I heard you speak this afternoon at Baker's. I said yeah, I'd like to come down and talk to you tomorrow morning if I could about something. He said sure, come on down to my office. So in the morning I went down there. I was a little less motivated in the morning. I don't want to go down and get some smarmy guy to be my sponsor, but I sat in his office. He said, yeah, sit down here, Clancy. Have a cup of coffee. What can I do for you? I said, well, Chuck, I thought, well he deserves the kindness. I said I've decided to ask you to be my sponsor. And he looked at me and he looked kind of quizzical. He says, oh that's kind of strange, Clancey. I heard you talk yesterday, and I thought you had come down to offer to be mine. I thought, well, maybe he's all right. He's not as nice as they say, but he became my sponsor. And I called him every week for the next 20-some years. I I always asked him what I could do for him I went to his house many, many times I John and I have often laughed there must be 10,000 people in the world who say Chuck Cameron is my sponsor but I was the only one he ever acknowledged and you're half tepid about that you read that book New Pair of Glasses he talks about this fellow in Los Angeles who he sponsors She said, we're glad AA's got a Clancy. We're really more glad they don't have two. That's what you call another enthusiastic recommendation. But I've often thought in all those years I talked about asking questions and giving answers. And I'll tell you something else. I'd rather have my tongue pulled out than say this. but if you really had a day to day pragmatic question that you needed a firm answer to you'd talk to his wife, Elsa who was in Al-Anon but Chuck would give you the merle, you know, here's the thing lovely things, but ifyou really know how can I pay my rent tomorrow you call Elsa here's how you do that oh yeah, I see that now I'll go back and ask Chuck true story, boy I don't want anyone, I don' t want to go out of this room that I ever gave any commendation and admitted taking advice from Al-Anon's. I think the only things he's ever told, he only asked me to do one thing without me asking him about advice. He only askedme to do one thing ever. In 1966, he called me up and said, Clancy? I said, Yes, Chuck. He said, The Dodgers are in the World Series. I said, I know that, Chuck. He said, i need two tickets for Friday's game and it's sold out. Can you get me two tickets? I said sure, Chuck I thought, how in the hell am I going to get two tickets if they're sold out there? And God a light bulb appeared over my head with a a guy I sponsored named Byron Walleen who's just been sober a few months. He's kind of an executive. And he told me, he told somebody he had two tickets to that game. So I called up Byron Walleen. I said, Byron, this is Clancy. How are you doing, son? I said I want to test you on something. It's going to seem like an awful lot, but it's, you know, you know your two tickets for Friday behind third base. Could I have those tickets? And there's a stunned silence. Yeah, I guess so. That's right. You're going to stay sober a long time, Byron. And he did. I sat next to him at the meeting the other night. He's been sober for 35 years, so it did work. Once he stopped giving me tickets, we're going, I'm going and take them to the steps. But I went down and gave, here's your tickets, Chuck. He said, how did you get them? And that's, he never asked me anything more after that. That was great. But I'll tell you something. I think, in my opinion, sponsorship is wonderful to have a sponsor. But it is even more wonderful after you're sober to sponsor people or at least help people because as much as you can take in peggy just talked about it you know that old simile of water pouring in and if none pours out that's right that's what happened what caused the dead sea because there's rivers rolling in there's no circulation of the water it just dies and i don't there's an old truism in education you never really learn a subject until you begin to teach it and when you begin to teach then you have to put it in your own framework of reference and then you have to and I've a lot of times I've been talking to people about things especially years ago and said oh that's what that means I'm explaining it to them and I suddenly understand what I've been believing unless you're just going to pair the equipment there's a years many years ago when I was still in private business and I used to work in promotion helping teach salesmen how to go out and do things and so on I haven't talked about this for a long time but we had a five step program it was an old five step sales learning technique and the first thing there are five laws if you want to make a sale and one is this if you wanna learn the subject matter to learn the product One, shut up. Now you wouldn't say that to a salesman, you'd say that to an alcoholic. Shut up. Don't tell us what you think because you don't know. Just shut up! Secondly, listen. You say, I can't help but listen to all this. I'm sure you can help. All of us have sat and listened to advice by the hour and not heard, couldn't repeat it five minutes later. Just uh-huh, uh-uh, uh‑huh. Listen to what they're saying. And the third one is Remember it. Try to find something that you can identify with, especially in AA, but in learning a product, remember it. Leave there remembering something that's useful to you. Remember it! Fourth thing, practice it. Try it. Try what they're telling you. Do it. If your sponsor tells you, I remember one time my sponsor told me not to steal newspapers out in front of the AA club off the newspaper rack. They were wide open then. And I remember thinking, but I worked for newspapers and they owe me something. I'm down and out and I remember one day just going, take the newspaper. No, I'll put it back. Why should I do that? Goofy. But do what they're telling you. And all this is very important. Don't argue with someone who knows more than you do. Listen to what he's telling or she's telling you remember what they're telling you the best of your ability practice what they're teaching you and the fifth one is the best one of all teach it to somebody else when you begin teaching it you're going to reach levels within you that is not possible to gain on your own and that's why it's so important, that's what the book says action is the magic word when all else fails you work with another alcoholic you don't meditate, you don' t sit down and write about it I feel bad today, I think I'll write maybe you'll learn something oh, I didn't know I could write I'm not putting it down just in my viewpoint there's a school of thought that has you write incessantly I would much rather have you go up and be kind to some goofy newcomer that is more what AA is about to try to take some action to get out of self Why is sponsorship so important? I'll tell you. John and Dick here, folks who I sponsor, when I'm thinking about those sick pukes, I'm not thinking about this sick puke. And that's the name of that story. When I'm talking about them, I'm now thinking about me. And the water starts to flow out a little bit. It really goes out. I don't know anything more. i uh i've had the opportunity over the years to sponsor some people and some been successful in some cases unsuccessful and others it still hurts me i had a guy that i was responsible for 35 years just fired me a few weeks ago because he's floating out the top of aa we weren't up to his standards anymore and really kind of smart i don't i saw it coming for a long time it didn't break my heart but it was sad i uh have seen people that i sponsor who don't want to do it many, many years ago chairman of the physics department of Caltech decided if one more drunk couldn't hurt him he'd choke to death on a piece of meat in a restaurant and you think what did I do wrong what more should I have done but there's just all you can do is make it available all you could do is allow them to realize you can trust me I hope you'll do that because if you can trust me then we can communicate if you don't you can't trust me and the last thing I'd say we're talking at noon today at lunch I'm talking to a friend of mine here and something we just take for granted but it isn't make sure your sponsor is an Alcoholics Anonymous make sure that he is practicing and preaching the AA that's in the book not some psychobabble not some crap that some counselor told him or not some far away writer is telling him but make sure that your sponsor is doing what AA says then you will do what AA says and you will be here to teach someone else to do what AAA says and your life will become rich thank you okay at this time we'll be taking questions from the audience mike's right up here in the front anybody want one more thing i'm going to say this bill wilson in his writings once upon a time said have question and answer meetings but never go too late to miss the kickoff Tell those people we're not passing the basket. Somebody say pass the basket and roll these. Microphones available if anybody likes. Hi, my name is Dorda and I have a question. Some of the ladies that I sponsor are very young and in their mind they feel that the other drugs that they're using, they need to address as much as the alcohol and I would like to hear what the people on the podium think on that. Dort and I actually spoke about this briefly yesterday she is talking about people who come into Alcoholics Anonymous who are addicted to both alcohol and drugs. Is that not the case, Dort? And Dort has no experience with drugs, nor do I. However, if I sponsor someone who has that dual addiction, generally speaking what I ask is that they talk to someone that I know who hasthat addiction as well. However if I'm going to sponsor them then and I will see them at meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous. Generally speaking, there's a question I ask. I don't know if it's right or wrong. I mean, we do this, all of us, this is a trial-by-error thing. I ask them, if there was no marijuana, would you have, and of course they all drink anyway, what if there were no drugs in this world? What would you Have done? Well, I'd drink. Okay, then if you want to stop drinking, I can help you if you want to stop stay stopped then Alcoholics Anonymous can help you that's the way that I deal with it I don't know about any other fancy stuff next I'm an alcoholic my name is James oh my question is this what do you do when you ask a person to sponsor you and they agree to sponsor you, but then when you call a particular sponsor after a month or so and they don't return your call. I get the easy ones. Get another sponsor because you don't have one. My name's Charlie i'm an alcoholic um what do you think is uh amount of time as variety to sponsor someone how long should you be sober i think if the guy's got two days and you have three you can sponsor him that's it There's no time limit to helping somebody in Alcoholics Anonymous. I mean, one of the things that we should do before we ever get thinking, we should get the word out of our heads that we're going to sponsor this person. Our business is to help people. If we can help them by being their sponsor, fine. If we help them getting them a cup of coffee, that's fine. If we could help them taking them to a meeting, that' fine. We can help them by answering a question out of the book, that's fine. But it doesn't necessarily have to be an official title given around. We help people. A lot of times when you're new, you can take people to the message even though you're not the message. And that's basically what it is. If you've got more time than the other guy, you could help him. Thank you. Hi, my name's Karen. I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Karen. I just wanted a couple of comments on men sponsoring women and women sponsoring men. That's a very valid point. I sponsor a number of women. I have never sponsored any woman who came in new. i've sponsored people who were sober a while and could not find other women would not or could not sponsor them and i think the way that works is this this is my own belief but i bet i can corroborate i think medically no sense but alcoholic women have a tendency to be dominating personalities. Even if they do it with envelopment, it's like it's dominating. I take control. Alcoholic men have a tendency to be dependent people and weak people even though they talk brusquely and yell and holler. When men sponsor women, they have to really go the opposite way from their weaknesses. If I indulged my weakness, I would have a hell of a time with Miss Karen, I'll tell you that. But the women I sponsor are very, very strong women who are very active members of AA. They're not children, they're grown-up ladies, and they're women who have been many times sponsored by somebody else and been fired. As a rule, I would always recommend men do not sponsor women. I'd recommend that, and if you're going to sponsor women, you've got to really be careful that you remember the rules now women sponsoring men i have never seen that to be terribly successful because that goes to the weakness in each the dependent boy and the mama you find that a lot in alcoholic marriages where you hear the woman say i'm sick of being his mother and i'm that's why alcoholic find alcoholic women sponsoring man often very often devolves into a mother-son relationship which is sick for both of them i uh i don't recommend that either i i the the idea of men's sponsor men and women sponsor women that is absolutely correct but also at the same time i know some women who would be dead if some strong man hadn't been there to push it i remember a woman that i sponsored years and years ago she's still sober 35 years i guess but she always used to talk saying my sponsor i went through all these women sponsors and i keep pushing them pushing them trying to tip them over and every day i pray i hope i can't tip them it's a funny thing because they're looking for some strength i i don't know how to say any more clearly men shouldn't sponsor women but some men sponsor women. Women should not sponsor men, and some men are sponsored by women. I think it works best when men sponsor women rather than women sponsoring men. Hi. My name is Karen. I'm an alcoholic. And in my sponsoring of women, I've been taught that one of the primary things I do is to take them through the steps, and that's one of the requirements I have for my women is that they have to agree that they're interested in working with steps for me to work with them. My question is, I've had women when we get to the fourth step, they are not entirely sure they want to do it or when they get to the ninth step, there not entirely they want do it and my question is if my role is to be useful to them how long should I sort of wait with them and talk to them repeatedly about the importance of the fourth steps before I say you know what if you're not interested doing this i can't sponsor you and the same thing with the ninth step how long do i continue to talk to them and hope that they will change their mind before i say you need to that i can't work with them well my thought would be how long do you want to be in pain if i i will wait for a while but if they keep screwing up because that's what happens when you don't do a four-step and you don t get around to doing your amends you'll keep repeating the same dumb actions over and over and make more wreckage if I see that happening I won't wait too long and it's fine with me if they get another sponsor it's not like a popularity contest you know it's not like having a bunch of I mean it'snot like I'm seeking out people to abuse by saying you better get done your four step you better start making these amends however I think there is my sponsor said to me a long time ago if it's working for you and it's working for me, it's sponsorship if it is not working for you and not working for me it's not sponsorship and it is not good and I think that if they buy the fact that I have done a four step and I have made my amends if they see me feeling better for that then if they can't see me feeling better for that then they need to get somebody in whom they can see those results. Because otherwise it's just indulging self-pity, it's indulging guilt, it's indulging feelings of low self-esteem, and it's indulging shame. And I'm going to do it. If they get it done or else. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with us. Because the gentleman was talking about what sponsors, as monkeys see, monkeys do, that you follow what your sponsor tells them to do and you become like them. How do you know if a sponsee is actually learning from you or just mimicking you just to get by? And the two-part question is how, as a sponsor, are you showing them, trying to separate your views from alcoholics' anonymous views? That way they get a better foundation. in my my experience when i'm working with people how i know that they're following the instructions that i give them is because to sponsor somebody who really wants to be sponsored and doing this thing is the easiest thing i ever do the hard ones are the ones who are always in the i don't quite know or what do you mean by that or or I don't have time, or blah, blah, blah, bla, blah. And that's, you know, I think sponsorship basically, when you ask somebody to be your sponsor, I think the first thing you should do is resign from the debating society. And what was the second part? The second part is how do you, well, I Think you already answered the first part, which was how do we separate your opinions from the opinions that's in the book? Because sometimes some sponsors focus more on the third step and accidentally try to convert them instead of like sticking more into what the book says it's sometimes opinions sort of clash a little bit I just watch and see what happens I mean my dearly beloved sponsor who passed away Norm Alpe used to have a saying that's absolutely and totally relevant at this time he said what you are speak so loud i can't hear a word you say that's what he used to say and that's basically what it is i mean i mean you watch i mean you can sit in any meeting of alcoholics anonymous any meeting about call it anonymous where's the foxhall group in bellevue or it's in the pacific group on wednesday night whether it's the bellflower group on my you can set in a meeting of alcoholic synonymous and you don't have to guess if you open your eyes who's doing it and who ain't doing it i mean And the ones who are doing it seem to have a little step about them. They seem to be a little livelier. You can always spot them. They've got mops in their hands, you know what I mean? Or they're picking up chairs or they're making coffee or they'RE doing whatever they're doing. I mean, that's the easiest thing in the world to do, but you've got to be in AA meetings to see.