Putting AA First to Make Life First Class — Helen M.

Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic, sober since January 1st, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is a podcast where AA members from around the world share their extraordinary stories of experience, strength, and hope.
This is the 154th interview in this podcast series and features Helen M. from London, England.
Helen tracks her nearly three years of sobriety as more than 1,000 days in AA she has experienced one day at a time.
Though she grew up in a home where neither of her parents were alcoholic, Helen suffered mistreatment at the hands of her two sisters.
To cope, she found the emotion-numbing relief that alcohol provided in her early childhood.
With the die-cast for an adolescence of drinking and other addictions, Helen drank herself into the throes of alcohol abuse by her early 20s.
By then, the inevitable consequences of daily drinking took shape in the form of lost jobs, ruined relationships, and physical maladies that are all too common in the disease of alcoholism.
Hitting bottoms along the way, Helen finally found the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous in 2018.
But getting to AA was only half the battle.
Drinking continued to take her down.
In a moment of utter despair, fraught with failure to grasp the program, Helen's path of salvation from drink was illuminated in September 2021.
She was done drinking and proceeded to work the program as suggested, even during the early days of COVID, when she became a meeting maker on several Zoom meetings she attended every day.
Helen's passion and enthusiasm for AA recovery is infectious, as she describes the gifts of the program she has enjoyed.
Working the steps, studying the big book, having and being a sponsor, spiritual awareness, and frequent service work all bolster Helen's place in the program.
Her story bears witness to AA members in their early years of the power of the program, and reminds those with many years or decades of sobriety that the simple path of faith and action is still blessed beyond question by a higher power.
So please, enjoy the next hour or so of AA Recovery Interviews with my friend, Helen.
And an AA sister, Helen M.
Hi, I'm Helen. I am a very grateful alcoholic.
Hi, Helen. Thanks so much for joining me this morning, or this evening, your time, on AA Recovery Interviews.
It's a real pleasure to have you here.
You and I had not known each other prior to a Zoom meeting that we went to.
That's correct.
I had the opportunity to hear you tell your story a little bit and thought it was really wonderful.
And wanted to have you on this podcast as a way to get your message out to others and give them the hope that you've gotten through the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
Thank you, Howard. Thank you so much for having me. This is a great honor to be here today. Thank you.
Now, you're in London, right?
Yes.
The meeting that you and I met in is a London-based meeting.
I never give the names of the actual meetings themselves because for anonymity reasons.
Anne?
Sometimes it might overwhelm a group if they suddenly have a big influx of people because people heard about the group on the podcast.
But I had the opportunity to hear you tell your story, and it was rich and engaging.
And I'm wondering how a person like you ended up in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Sometimes I ask myself that exact question.
But I'm very proud to be a member of AA.
I'm very proud to be a member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
It's absolutely changed my life.
And you've been sober how long now?
I've been sober for, I think it's 1,018 days, which is, if you do the maths, it's two years, nine months, and a couple of days.
So I'll be three years in September.
Oh, very cool. Congratulations on that.
Thank you.
I love the day counters because I have a guy I sponsor who I've been sponsoring for a really long time.
And he always leads by saying,
Thanks to the fellowship and God, as I understand him, I've been sober, I don't know, 12,972 days or something outrageous like that.
But I think it's great when you start talking in days as opposed to years.
It breaks things down into more meaningful units.
Well, I mean, for me, I used to do it, and I still do it every single day, one day at a time.
And then in my early days, my first 90 days, I was doing 90 days.
And then it would be, you know, months, and I would come in every single month and announce my, you know, my next milestone.
And then it was years.
And I still do it by months.
But recently, you know, I turned 1,000 days.
And that, for me, it just blows my mind because that's four figures.
You know, that's four figures.
I couldn't even get one figure.
I couldn't get one hour.
So I did have to actually look on my little app.
Today, my Pink Cloud app, and that always keeps my day count.
So, yeah.
That's terrific.
And the actual date itself is in September?
That's correct.
The 19th of September, 2021.
2021.
That's wonderful.
So you got sober coming in through Zoom, didn't you?
I did, but that is not the first time that I came into AA.
It took me over two years to get sober.
The first time I walked into an AA meeting was on the 31st of August, 2019.
And it took me two years, two years and 20 days to get sober.
What was happening before you came in that first time that would make you want to even check it out?
Well, I knew that I was drinking too much and I had been drinking for a long time.
I first picked up my first drink at the age of five.
And, you know, throughout the years, I mean, I can even go back to that day because I remember it quite vividly.
We were at my cousin's wedding.
And I remember, you know, I was full of fear and I didn't know it at the time.
But I have two older sisters and one of my sisters particularly, I just didn't get along with very well.
And both of them together, I felt that they didn't include me in a lot of things.
There was a lot of bullying going along.
And so I would hide away or I would run away and hide behind doors.
And we were at my cousin's wedding and one of my sisters was teasing me.
And I went and hid behind a door in a separate room.
And that room was empty, but it was filled with champagne glasses.
And I remember that was the first time I picked up a drink.
And then throughout the years, you know, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, I always knew where my dad's alcohol was.
My parents are not alcoholics, but there was always a lot of alcohol in the house.
You know, back in those days, there were those big boxes of red wine and you'd press the little button.
And so I would go along.
And I just, you know, I'd help myself.
But it was at the age of 23, I think, that I then became a daily drinker.
And it just progressed, you know, and I couldn't really have too much alcohol even at that age.
But by the end of my drinking, I was I was drinking about a liter of whiskey, a couple of bottles of wine a day.
And those miniatures, you know, I would have those little miniature bottles because I couldn't make it, you know,
the four or five minute walk back from the corner shop.
I had to have that little miniature.
And I always thought that, you know, those miniature bottles were quite a good way to let the shop assistant know that I only wanted a small amount.
But I found out in AA that actually only alcoholics drink those miniatures.
That's right. That's right.
Some some drink it for portion control, so to speak, so they won't pour themselves more than a shot.
Right.
So your your first drink goes back to age five.
What did you notice when you were a kid and taking those?
The clandestine drinks behind closed doors.
And how did it make you feel?
And what did you think about drinking at that time?
Yeah, I think it made me feel less fearful.
It made me feel a little bit more invincible and a little bit more like an adult, you know, because I knew that adults were able to drink.
And that's what they did.
And and so and I obviously always did it in secret, which added to that fear of being found.
And I never was found out, you know, I was always very good at hiding and keeping things secret.
But but it was those drinks that made me it took away a lot of my anxiety, for sure.
You had mentioned earlier about being bullied by your sisters.
Yeah.
What did the drinking do to those particular relationships with those sisters?
Well, I would drink particularly when one of them or both of them were being quite mean to me.
And it would just help to numb my feelings.
It would help to, you know, numb out what they would say to me.
It was really just the one sister who was who was the worst.
But I felt that the other sister would, you know, follow her like a little sheep.
And that's how I saw their relationship.
And I saw them very, very close.
And, you know, I'm very close to one of them now, but I'm still not close to the other one.
The one that was that was really mean to me.
And is that since sobriety or since sobriety?
So my middle sister lives over in America.
And I went to see her last year and she's actually very unwell right now.
She she has cancer and it's and it's devastating.
But I went over to visit her last year and I was adamant that I wasn't going to tell her that I'm in recovery.
And I was 18 months at the time, coming up to 18 months.
And I was adamant that I wasn't going to tell her.
And then towards the end of the week, we started bonding over our relationship.
And, you know, one conversation led on to another one.
And it was in the journey back to the airport.
And it was just me and her.
It was just like something came out of me.
And I just started sharing these stories and and just told her that I was in recovery.
And we were both crying.
And I mean, it was it was absolutely incredible conversation and situation.
And, you know, I was just able to make an amends to her.
And I just I'm able to be that sister for her that I'm that I was never able to.
It was amazing.
And I'm going back to see her this September.
I'm flying over initially to San Diego, where I've got a lot of friends in recovery.
My best friend who is in recovery, she's sober for 34 years.
I met her on Zoom starting over in San Diego.
And then I and then I go up to L.A. where my sponsor has just moved back to.
And that's where I'm going to celebrate my three years.
And then I fly up to see my sister and then I'll go back.
One of the greatest gifts in sobriety, I think,
for a lot of people is the reparation of relationships,
even relationships where people haven't been close for decades or most of their lives
can sometimes be ironed out and repaired as a result of sobriety.
Had you not stopped drinking, what do you think your response to your sister being ill would have been?
I would have been drinking and making it all about me.
She was she was diagnosed with cancer when I was drinking.
I remember walking to the corner.
I remember going to the corner shop because I wanted to sort of numb the pain.
I remember going back and forth along the road going, I'm going to go to the shop.
No, I'm not. Yes, I'm going to go to the shop.
No, I'm not. Yes, I'm going to go to the shop.
And I remember calling somebody who is in AA and I spoke to him and I said, I just don't know what to do.
And we spoke on the phone and we prayed together down the phone.
That was one of the most powerful things that I have.
I can remember, but I still made it all about me.
And I didn't get sober then for another nine months.
After that. And I couldn't I couldn't stop for her.
I couldn't stop for my family.
I had to stop for myself.
Yeah. You know, and I'm incredibly grateful that I was given that gift of desperation.
And that's usually what it takes, no matter how many people or how many influences you have in your life until you're willing to want it for yourself.
I think it can sometimes be very elusive.
You had mentioned that your parents weren't drinkers, but they did have alcohol in the house.
What was your family of origin like growing up, especially around?
Your parents and drinking in the household?
My parents are very loving.
I did grow up in a very loving family, apart from my sisters.
My mom doesn't drink.
She'll drink half a glass of champagne at Christmastime.
My dad, he's not he's not a heavy drinker either.
Or, you know, he doesn't he really doesn't drink that much.
But he always has alcohol in the house.
I think a lot of it was given to him over the years as gifts.
He was a he was.
He was a headmaster of a school.
And so he was always given alcohol, particularly whiskey.
And I remember he had this he had this big bookshelf, long, long bookshelf, and it was filled with whiskey bottles.
And over the years, it was me that made my way through them, you know, and and I would I would be very careful to make sure that, you know, each one was, you know, like the gap between just was the same each time.
Every time bottle was taken down and it was just it was just insane.
That must have been tough.
It was tough.
It was.
Because I hear so many stories.
And of course, I've been sober and listened to stories in rooms for a very long time.
And it's always kind of interesting to me when I run into people who talk about loving, happy childhoods, because that wasn't the case for me.
It's often not the case for the majority of people in the program.
And one of my friends who mentioned about growing up in a happy, loving household.
I asked him, I said, how is that possible?
How can someone become an alcoholic coming out of that?
Because my experience was I drank and used drugs because I came out of that kind of atmosphere.
And his response to me was very simple.
He said, because I drank too much beer.
I thought I can't be it.
When you look back on your family of origin, is there any place you can point either to grandparents or other people in the family where you think maybe you picked up the gene from them?
Or was it just something that happened?
Oh, 100 percent.
I mean, my mom particularly, she always used to tell us to put on a brave face, always pretend that everything is OK, even when it's not.
You know, and and, you know, it was in my really dark days.
I didn't know who to turn to.
My mom doesn't believe in mental health.
She thinks it's a fashionable phrase.
But I do think that there are a lot of dry addicts of various types.
In our family.
And I think that my mom has issues around other things.
Since I got sober, I've been learning a lot about my great uncle and about how how much he liked to drink and what he was like when he came home every night drunk and things like that.
And it's interesting.
And I'm just starting to piece a few things together.
I thought that I was the only one.
I thought that I was I was different from everybody else.
But I'm starting to see.
Some patterns for sure.
Yeah, those patterns are it's helpful to be able to recognize those for no other reason than to just give yourself some assurance that it didn't come out of this, you know, outer space.
It's something that was running already running in the family when when we got here.
That's kind of how it was for me.
Neither of my parents drank, but there was plenty of addiction and other mental health issues in the family, you know, going back probably generations.
And, you know, you hope that it skips a generation or two along the way.
But.
My feeling is that as long as it's better in our generation than it was in the last, there's hope for everyone.
I remember when I was in therapy, when I was in serious depression and serious drinking, and I remember putting my parents on a pedestal and I would say, you know, my mom is the strongest person that I know.
And she never talks about her feelings.
And I've never seen my mom cry.
And I remember my therapist looking at me and saying, and is that is that strong?
You know, and.
Because my mom would, you know, she doesn't talk about her emotions.
And so I do know that, you know, if I become a mother, I would definitely allow my kids to show their emotions and feel their feelings because we weren't allowed to do that as children.
We're still not allowed to do that as children.
I remember when my sister was diagnosed with cancer and we did a big family Zoom and I started crying and my mom said, right, stop crying.
Let's focus on the next thing.
And my sister said to me, Mom, she's allowed.
My sister then went into surgery and then came out.
She woke up.
And the first thing she texted me was, did you allow yourself to cry?
And I just thought, what an amazing thing, you know?
Yeah.
So somewhere along the way, there's this intuition in your family that it's OK, irrespective of what your mother says is the rule.
Yeah, I get that.
That's got to be kind of tough for you when you were a kid to not be able to show those emotions or always having to put the best face.
on what might not be such a great situation.
Absolutely.
You mentioned those being issues that you dealt with in therapy.
And most of us, myself included, for years and years have been involved with therapy.
It's a good adjunct to the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
It's not a replacement for it, but it's certainly very helpful.
At what age and at what point in your life did you start availing yourself of therapy?
I had had a very nasty breakup.
With what?
With somebody.
It was mid-30s.
Uh-huh.
And he was quite a manipulative person.
And all of my confidence just was shattered in myself.
And I would wake up and I would drink.
And I just didn't want to wake up anymore.
And I remember going to therapy.
But because I was drinking, you know, not much was really going in.
And there were periods of time when she would even say, you know, I don't think it's right that we carry on.
Until you can sort your alcoholism out.
And she did try to get me into AA.
You know, but when I got sober, that was when I came back into therapy.
And that was when things really helped.
You know, doing therapy along with my steps and having my sponsor as well was just incredible for me.
And then I went from having weekly sessions to every two weeks and then every month.
And then.
You know, now I don't have therapy sessions.
But I do know that she's always there if I need her.
It's so important, too, for us to know that the therapists are sympathetic to and understanding of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
I went to a psychologist very, very, almost before I stopped drinking, but a few years into it, where he never brought up the fact that I was drinking too much.
We talked about everything but that.
It seems like we talked around the drugs and alcohol.
And in a lot of ways, that kind of did me a disservice.
Had he ever faced me down with the fact that I was using and drinking, I don't know, I might have gotten sober sooner.
Things, you know, I might not have experienced some of the pretty negative things that happened as a result of continuing to drink and use drugs.
But he used to say, keep coming back, bring your checkbook.
Yeah.
So what were your school years like with regard to drinking?
I went to boarding school.
I went to boarding school at the age of 11.
And while I was at school, because I was away from my sisters, I didn't have that feeling that I needed to go and pick up a drink every time I had any fear or anxiety.
It was only when I came home and my sisters were there.
So actually, I did quite well at school.
I got good grades.
I was an all-rounder.
I was very sporty.
I was into my theatre.
And academically, I was very strong.
Then when I left school...
My dad, you know, being the headmaster that he is, wanted me to go to university.
But I wanted to get into drama school.
And I had a couple of years, two or three years in between school and drama school where I was working.
And I started earning money pretty quickly.
But it was really when I got into a relationship with a guy who...
I know we're not really meant to say that other people are alcoholics.
But I do believe that he is an alcoholic.
And I remember knowing at the time that I was drinking too much, but being in complete denial that I was an alcoholic myself.
And in order to help him get sober, I did manage to stay sober myself for nine months.
And it was after we broke up that, you know, and I felt trapped in that relationship.
So trapped for two years.
And I finally plucked up the courage to break up with him.
And from that day, I drank every single day.
I remember coming home to my...
I was living in Spain at the time, doing a theatre tour.
And I brought home like four or five bottles of wine for all of us to share.
And from that day, I drank every single day.
You know, after drama school, because that was my thing, I really wanted to go into acting.
But I think because, you know, there's not much money in acting until you get quite big.
And I needed other jobs to pay the bills.
You know, academically...
You know, being at school and everything helped me get good jobs.
And I was earning good money, but I was spending everything on booze.
Everything.
And I lost my motivation and determination in life.
And my acting career really went down.
It's just incredible how powerful this thing is.
It just takes over you.
My life was completely unmanageable.
You know, and then towards the end, I just couldn't even get out of bed.
Isn't it ironic how it helps you survive for so many years, but then it kind of flips and you struggle to survive.
And you're not able to survive without it.
You mentioned about the sisters.
It sounds to me like when you were at home, there was a lot of anxiety and fear and all the other things that would make one want to drink to escape their feelings.
But you went to boarding school at 11.
I've interviewed a number of different people who went to boarding school for their grammar school and high school and that sort of thing.
And some found it really helpful to be away from the family and the house and what was going on at home.
Others.
Felt somewhat abandoned.
How did you feel about going to boarding school?
I really enjoyed it.
I really enjoyed it initially.
But then when I hit 16, I think it was, I then developed an eating disorder as well.
So that was when things, you know, I started to enjoy things less.
But as a majority, I really enjoyed boarding school.
I just really enjoyed being away from home life.
Even though, you know, I was still looking at my parents as, you know, putting them on a pedestal.
And I loved being around my parents.
It's only, you know, since I got sober and well, no, before that being in therapy that I realized that I wasn't able to show my emotions at home.
But it was really my sisters that I wanted to get away from.
Yeah, I get that.
That's kind of tough.
When you mentioned about the eating disorder, many of us, of course,
have co-addictions, whether it's alcohol and drugs or alcohol and eating disorders or gambling or debt or sex or whatever else.
Absolutely.
Did you identify your eating addiction before your alcoholism or did you see one relating to the other from the start?
Obviously, I started drinking first because I was young.
I was five and I was always a very good eater and I was always very active.
But my eating disorder, because my mum has issues with food, that was the thing.
Ever since I can remember, she's always been on a diet or been in Weight Watchers and everything in Weight Watchers is done by points.
And I can almost I can pin that point when I remember looking in her Weight Watchers book and seeing how many points I was eating, you know, at the time.
And I was only 15, 16 and being shocked at how much I was eating.
And that's how my eating.
Disorder kicked in.
I remember then when I was around about 19, 20, something like that.
I remember thinking, well, you know, if I substitute my dinner for a bottle of wine because liquid is going to be easier to digest, then, you know, so that's how it kind of started to progress until it then became a daily thing at the age of 23.
Yeah.
So really booze after a while, you know, was my was my morning.
Breakfast, lunch and dinner, you know, and everything in between.
I was a 24 hour drinker.
So it also became the gateway into your eating addiction then.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I have cross addictions.
Drugs was a huge part of my story as well.
Food, obviously, I doubled in gambling a little bit.
I mean, I could have gone into a lot of fellowships.
But for me, you know, the first drug that I picked up was alcohol.
Yeah.
And the last drug that I put.
Down with alcohol.
And for me, Alcoholics Anonymous has has really helped with every aspect in my life.
Do you feel like Alcoholics Anonymous then has a dress help you address the other addictions?
One hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
It's because people allowed me to respect myself and showed me how to respect myself.
And I think, you know, because it's an honest program, I really had to start getting honest with myself.
Can you walk us down the path?
A little bit from when you graduated from high school and the thing you mentioned, some about acting jobs and doing other things to support yourself while you were pursuing that.
Can you tell me a little bit more about that and what that time frame was like before you actually came into AA?
Sure.
So I left school, it would have been at 18, and before I was drinking daily, I think I was battling more with my eating.
Mm hmm.
And then at the age of 23, I was, as I said, I was, I was away in Spain and I was traveling with a theater company.
And then, you know, my acting career never took off, I think, because, you know, my motivation went down and I needed I needed jobs to help me pay the bills.
And I would always gravitate to hospitality.
So, of course, in hospitality, you know, there's always a lot of booze.
And, you know, very quickly.
I learned to put whiskey in my morning coffee or finish off other people's drinks.
I always knew where the cameras were, so I wasn't caught doing things like that.
And, you know, I still carried on here and there with my with my acting.
But even acting, you know, going on festivals or whatever, there's there's always a lot of alcohol.
People are always drinking.
You know, it's it's not it's not great for a potential alcoholic.
And I got a very good job working in a restaurant in central London, you know.
And looking back at that, I mean, I was suspended from work for what they didn't know it was to do with alcohol.
But I know that it was to do with alcohol.
And I left that job and said, right, all I'm going to do is is act, you know, and I'm going to put everything into my acting.
But I couldn't because I was just drinking, you know, the whole time.
And so I actually completely ran out of money.
I ended up, you know, how it talks about, you know, sordid places in the big book.
And I ended up in a restaurant.
And I ended up in a restaurant.
ended up going into a strip club and I was working in a strip club for years. Um, and I was earning
very good money, but I was spending every penny, every single penny on drugs and alcohol. Um, and
I remember, um, I was, I was 36 and I was lying in bed. Um, God knows what time of the day it was.
I never knew what time of the day it was. And I remember lying in bed at night and I saw on
Facebook, somebody had posted that they were two years sober. And I didn't know this person,
but for some reason we were, we were friends on Facebook and I messaged him directly and asked him
how he, how he did it. And he said, um, AA. And, um, I went into my first meeting and I was 36
and it was on the 31st of August, 2019. And I can picture it now. And that's, you know,
that's not my sobriety date, but that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's,
that's the date that I admitted that I have a problem. And then when I got sober in, uh, 2021,
that's the date that I accepted it. Um, and I remember, I remember walking into that meeting
and the lady who chaired was talking about like this internal tremor that she had.
And I suddenly related because I had this internal tremor constantly. I hadn't, I hadn't physically
been shaking at that point. You couldn't see it, but I had this internal tremor and I always,
I always put it down to anxiety and it would wake me up in the middle of the night. I felt like I was
shaking like anything, but I wasn't at that point. And so I would drink to calm my anxiety, you know,
what I thought it was. And, uh, and I started, I started relating to things. And, um, I remember
they shoved a big book in my hand, um, and they wrote the date in it and they just said, keep
coming back. And I kind of flitted in and out of AA for, um, about a year.
And this is pre COVID we're talking about right now.
Yeah.
Just, just before COVID. And I went to a lot of meetings. I did. I actually really enjoyed going
to meetings and I got a week of sobriety because I was staying up with my parents and I came clean
to them that I, that I was in AA.
What was their response?
Yeah. They didn't take it very well.
Why not?
Because of course, you know, a daughter of theirs could be an alcoholic. Right. Um, and my, I
remember my mom said to me, well, you know, this, this stops now, right. This stops now. And, uh,
and then she told my dad,
and I went off to a meeting and I came home and they were both sitting at the table. And my mom
said, I've, I've told your dad. And I just went, Oh God. Um, because I was, I told my mom, um,
because I was so worried that they were going to find out how much of dad's whiskey that I was
drinking. Right. They'd been given this, um, bottle of vodka by somebody. It was a two liter
bottle of vodka. And I drank the whole thing and then obviously filled it up with water.
And then, uh, before they noticed, I would fill it up with vodka and then drink the vodka and then
fill it up with water and all that kind of stuff. And, um, and then my mom had smelt it and realized
that it wasn't actually vodka and it was water. And, uh, and so, you know, my, my dad, uh, was
very shocked and he didn't really say an awful lot, but my mom would say to me things like,
right, well, this, this stops now. And, uh, she said, we're, um, we assume that you're not on
drugs. And I, and I just went, I just lied. And I just said, no, mom, you know, and in my head,
I was thinking, well, you know, if that helps me, I'm going to do it. And I just said, no, mom,
fine. You know, the next day she said to me, she gets, she gave me a big hug. I remember that she
did give me a big hug. And then she said to me, I don't think you'll relapse. And that was really
her just saying, I don't want you to relapse. You know, over the years, it's been amazing
how much they have, how, how, like they've grown in their acceptance of this because even last,
the Christmas that's just gone, we went out for, um, we went out for lunch,
and they said for the very first time in public, the words AA. And, uh, because normally they would
say, you know, are you, my mom would say, in fact, my dad actually doesn't really ask me anything
about it, but it's my mom that she'll say to me, you know, are you, um, you know, are you still
going to your meetings quite quietly? And I'll say, yes, mom, I go to my meetings of alcoholics
anonymous. People might be listening. Right. Exactly. We'll be right back.
My friends, if you're enjoying AA recovery interviews, I invite you to check out my
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you're going to love it. And we're back. What did she mean by when she said this stops now,
was she talking about AA or drinking or what? She was talking about the drinking as in,
I have to stop drinking.
Right now. So she thought it was sufficient enough for her to just tell you to stop,
even though here you were going to AA because you couldn't.
Absolutely. You know, and, and then, you know, it was a year after that,
that I did actually call them, I was in a really, really bad way. And I was living down here in
London in this flat, and I called them. And they came down and picked me up, you know,
my parents were in their 70s. And they drove down, they picked me up. And they took me home.
And that was the first time,
that I was physically shaking. I remember my mum gave me a, you know, a cup of tea
to hold, and I couldn't hold it. And she was spoon feeding me and everything. And,
and they, they were asking me about it. They were asking me how much I was drinking. And
my dad was, was reading a book, and he didn't really look at me. But my mum was very gentle.
And she, she had me sort of lay on her chest, and she was stroking my hair. And she was very,
very gentle with me. But I was in,
in such a bad way. My withdrawals were so bad. And I remember having to wash my bedsheets,
you know, for like three or four days. And then it was the following year, when I was sober,
that we went out for lunch for Christmas. And my dad said, Right, what are we all drinking?
He said, Helen, are we having, do you want some wine? And I said, No, dad, I don't drink anymore.
And he said, Don't you? Why not? And I, I was shocked. And I, and I, and I, I couldn't, I couldn't
quite fathom how he couldn't remember what I had been like, you know, that image of me. And I was
completely unrecognizable. I mean, I was, I was purple, my eyes were bloodshot, my skin was
crusty. I was about three or four sizes bigger than I am now. I was just a mess. And he couldn't
understand why I wasn't drinking. And, and, and then he would, he would tell me about this
Christmas cake that he had made. And he said, Oh, you must have some, I'll send some down to you.
And I said, Yeah, but don't drink.
Dad, does it, does it have alcohol in? And he said, Oh, yes, lots of it. And I said,
well, then dad, I don't, I don't want it. And he said, but it's Christmas cake. You know,
when you're not an alcoholic, it's difficult to understand. But I know personally, myself,
I can never safely pick up a drink.
That's, that's right. And it's a frame of mind that you really don't get until you're either
in the rooms or are really truly understanding of the people who are in the rooms. And they don't
understand alcoholism. They may not think it's a very big deal for you to take a drink or to eat
a piece of cake.
Brandy soaked fruitcake or whatever it is that your dad was making. But that slips off your mind
very, very quickly, don't you think? Absolutely. I mean, I just I don't play with fire at all. I
mean, when I'm, you know, I'm very happy now to, you know, go out to birthdays and parties and
whatever it is. But I, I don't like really being in big crowds anymore around people who are
drinking and getting more and more drunk. You know, I always have a get out clause, you know,
and when I'm with my family, and there is a lot of alcohol around and now everybody in my family
knows that I'm in AA. But like every time there is an event like Christmas, I will always put a
little colourful ribbon around my glass so that I know that it's mine and everybody else knows that
it's mine. And, you know, nothing goes in that glass. I just I'm very careful about what I put
into my system. You know, when I'm when I'm out at a restaurant, I will always ask if there's any
alcohol in anything that I've ordered. Even then you have to be pretty careful.
My wife has always been the taste tester for me. Right. Every now and then, you know, especially
around the holidays. The most innocuous little treats might be rum balls, or they may be brandy
soaked, or they may be, maybe they were cooked with alcohol. You know, it's just playing with
it. And I can't afford that kind of thinking. Yeah, I can't afford that either. And my
boyfriend's the same. He'll do little tasters as well to make sure and but you know, when I'm in
if they say you any allergies, I will say I'm highly allergic to alcohol. And when you say
that you're highly allergic to something, then they'll go back and check with the chef,
you know, make sure you know, and it's always the chocolate brownies. Why do they have to put
alcohol in the chocolate brownies? It just totally ruins them. But yeah.
Because they have to put alcohol in everything. That's probably why
things it sounds to me had gotten pretty much out of control in between the time you first went
into AA in 2019. Yes. And your sobriety date, your current sobriety date. Can you walk us through
those that period of time? I guess it was less than a year or a year and a half to Yeah, two
years. It took me two years and 20 days. Okay. And I remember so before COVID hit, I was going to
a lot of in person meetings. And then when COVID hit,
um, I really plummeted. I really, really plummeted. And in what way did you plummet
drinking wise and using and I would have, I would have alcohol delivered to the door.
What was lacking from your first exposure to AA that made it possible or made it
easy for you to pick up that drink? I didn't want it enough. I came into Alcoholics Anonymous
in 2019.
And I just thought that, you know, I could go to a few meetings. And, you know, I would just be taught
really how to drink like a normal person. And I just wanted the consequences to stop. And, and I
remember seeing all the scrolls on the walls and seeing the steps. And I just, you know, I just
thought that it just looked like too much work, you know, and I wasn't I wasn't willing to put the
work in. And I saw the word God and I just kind of just wanted to run away. And, and I saw the steps
and I thought that most of them didn't even apply to me. And I just thought I could just come to some
meetings.
I didn't want it enough. I didn't I didn't have that willingness to go to any lengths. I was
willing to go to any lengths to get to get a drink, right and to get a drug. But, but I wasn't willing
at that point to go to any lengths. And people would give me their phone numbers. And, and I was
handing out my phone number to people. And I all these numbers were ringing me that I didn't
recognize. And I didn't want to pick up the phone, you know, to anybody. Because I didn't like the
question, you know, how are you?
Because I never knew how to answer that. Because I'd always numbed every single feeling and emotion
that I had with alcohol. And I didn't like the the question, you know, how long have you been
sober now? You know, because I wasn't I was still drinking. And I kept ending up in hospital. And I
was always on a drip. And that would always make me feel a lot better. And the doctors would always
say to me, you know, you're, you're drinking dangerous amounts. Try and reduce, you know,
but don't stop drinking. And when you tell an alcoholic to not stop drinking, you know, that's
like gold dust, right? So I carried on drinking. And, but I was never able to reduce my drinking.
And then eventually, I went into hospital. And I said to the doctors, I need more than just
medication, I need to speak to somebody, they brought down a guy from the alcohol department.
His name is Charlie, and he won't mind me saying his name. And he sat with me, and I was pouring
my alcohol. And I was like, I need to speak to somebody. I need to speak to somebody. I need to
get my heart out. And I was just crying and sobbing. And, and he explained that he's in
recovery himself. And he we were just sharing stories and relating. And it was the first time
that I had any sense of hope, any sense of hope at all. And he was so gentle with me. And I
remember saying to him, Am I gonna die? And he said to me, not on my watch. And he never gave
up on me. And we're still very good friends to this day. And he told me that during lockdown,
AA had moved on to zoom.
And so when I was released from hospital, I came home, and I woke up the next morning.
And I had a text message from Charlie. And he said, Hi, Helen, it's Charlie from the hospital.
I hope you're okay. And as promised, here is the link for all the AA meetings on zoom.
And I remember looking at this message. And I was thinking, Oh, my God, like, normally, when you get
sent away from hospital, they just sort of wish you all the best. And here was somebody who was
genuinely wanted to speak to somebody. And I was like, Oh, my God, I'm going to die. And he said,
help me. And, and so I got into AA on zoom, I went to a meeting, and he was there. And from then I
just started going to all of these online meetings, you know, but it wasn't consistent. I wasn't every
day, you know, but I was still coming back. That was the one thing that I was doing. There was a
meeting that I that I liked, and it is now my home group. But I wasn't going every single day. But I
was seeing all the same people, you know,
and but it still took me from the minute that I started coming into zoom, it still took me another
year, you know, I was drinking every day, but I was having these big binges of, you know, a liter
of whiskey, a few bottles of wine every single day. And eventually, and I was still going into
hospital. And then eventually, I just thought, I just can't do this anymore. I was done. I was
given that gift of desperation. And, you know, and I knew that there was only one place that I needed
to be, you know, my therapist hadn't got to be there. And I was like, I'm going to go to the
hospital hadn't got me sober, even though I'm incredibly grateful that I met Charlie,
you know, that there was just one place that I needed to be. And I came back into Alcoholics
Anonymous. And when you were hospitalized, what were you hospitalized for?
For alcoholic poisoning? Yeah. And it was really only in the last few times that I was there that
that my liver had gone, you know, off the roof. And because before that, like my bloods,
my blood counts were always,
kind of under the level, or they were always regarded as, you know, okay. And so that in itself
allowed me to carry on drinking. In my head, I was thinking, all right, well, then I'm not really
that bad. So then I would just carry on drinking. But it did scare me when my liver went off the
rocket. I was always told, you know, that Jägermeister, I don't know if you have it over
there in America. Right. So Jägermeister, I was told has digestive ingredients in special
digestive ingredients in right, so which might be true, right, if you have like a teaspoon of it or
something. And, you know, I had a really bad stomach ache, I think, because, you know, I was
drinking too much. And so I decided to get myself a litre of Jägermeister. And I made my way through
it. I drank a litre and then I couldn't understand why I was throwing up and, you know, why it was
hurting even more because it was meant to be good for my stomach. So then I had a second litre,
right, of Jägermeister. And,
and then ended up in hospital. And I mean, I was just throwing, I just couldn't keep anything down.
And this was the time that I decided not to tell Charlie that I was in hospital and thinking that,
you know, I didn't want to let him down, you know, and I came home and I woke up the next,
or I think it was probably two days later when they let me out. And I woke up and there were
two missed calls from Charlie. And I was like, oh man, how does he know? You know, and I, and he
said, well, it's my job to know who's come in for alcoholic poisoning. But they,
they made me go back the next week to have further blood tests to see about my liver.
Unfortunately, you know, it had, it had gone down. And so Charlie and I
sat and had a cup of coffee and, and I just, I remember saying to him, you know, I'm really
trying, I'm really, really trying. And he said, he, he would say to me, don't try, just do.
And he said, trying means all you're doing is trying your best to keep drinking rather than
doing what you can to stay in recovery. He said, don't try, just do.
Yeah.
It makes a lot of sense. And it's, it's the thing that, that we need to hear. You're essentially
going to meetings. You have the desire to stop, although you're not stopping during that one
year period. When you were called on in meetings, I'm curious, what were you saying? Though you knew
that you were drinking, maybe everybody else also knew. What sort of things were you talking about
to get the onus off of you? Or were you just out and out lying about not drinking?
Well, this is an interesting one. I've been trying to remember this myself. I don't remember
people sharing their day counts. Now, whether or not that was because I came into
meetings late, I don't know. And I don't really remember. I definitely remember sharing.
And I just remember people saying, you know, just keep coming back. And I didn't know that they knew
that I was drunk. I thought that I was being quite, you know, clever about it.
And I remember coming into the meeting that is now my home group. And there's a breakout room at
the end, a women's breakout room, and there's a men's one as well. And I was in the breakout room
and my now sponsor said to me, Hey, Helen, you know, it's really good to see you. And, you know,
just how, how, and I was quite energetic. And she said, you know, how long have you been,
how long have you been sober now? And, and I was like,
I don't know, maybe like a month. And I had like a gin and tonic in my hand. And,
you know, I remember being asked to read the preamble and I asked to do readings.
But I think it was really only in the in-person meetings that I was sharing. I don't really
remember. It's all very fuzzy, but I don't really remember sharing so much. And I definitely don't
think I did a day count because I had no days. Well, Zoom certainly made it possible.
And still does because there are a lot of Zoom meetings still going on. Zoom made it possible
for people to be able to be doing all kinds of things while it looks like they're okay on Zoom.
Do you think you could have gotten away with what you were doing had you been going to live
meetings during that year? Well, I mean, I remember one of the in-person meetings that I went to and
I was drinking in the toilet beforehand. And then there was, I think it was a 90 minute meeting. And
I would go to the toilet and I would drink. And I mean, people, and I remember going to a meeting
and a lady saying to me, you know, have you had a drink today? And I, and I, I kind of was a little
bit shocked that she'd said that, but I just said, I said, yes. And then she said, yeah, I can smell
it. I was like, wow. And then I didn't like people getting too close to me. I was definitely being in
the comfort of my own home during lockdown, especially when things got really, really bad.
I still didn't have that willingness to go.
Without, you know, had there been in-person meetings, I wouldn't have really had that
willingness and that energy to go out to, to, to meetings. I definitely was doing everything on
Zoom, but then having said that, Zoom was the thing that saved my life.
Yeah. It's, it's interesting how it cuts both ways for you and your story that it was the thing that
allowed you to hide out. But then again, the third tradition, the only requirement for membership is
a desire to stop drinking. One of the earliest interviews I did was with a woman who was
drinking for five years.
Uh, while she was going to AA meetings almost daily. And then finally she stopped, but she
satisfied the requirement. She had the desire. She said, I always wanted to stop, but I just
kept drinking. During this period of time, were you seeing somebody during that one year period?
So I was with my boyfriend. We'd been together for five months before I got sober.
Okay. So he saw, he saw the behavior. Did he take you to the hospital?
No. So interestingly,
um, because we didn't even live in the same city, I was quite, I was quite careful, uh, when I was
around him and he rarely, rarely saw me drink. He saw the after effects because there were a couple
of times that we were planning to go away and I, I would cancel the holiday and then I would rebook
it and then I would cancel the holiday. And, and then I would get there and I just looked horrendous,
you know, because I was, I was just so hung over. Um,
in my final binge, I remember being on the phone to him and he said to me,
is there something that you want to tell me? And he was so gentle with me. And I said, yeah,
I've been drinking. Um, and I think, I think I told him that I was an alcoholic, uh, after about
a couple of months. And, uh, and in this final binge, you know, he, he was living in Birmingham
at the time and, uh, and he came down to London and he knew that I had been drinking.
He kind of had a sense of what he was coming to, but I don't think he was really prepared for it.
I mean, my flat was a mess and I just looked horrendous and he walked in and he just, he sat
next to me and he just took my hand and, you know, he said, is there, is there any more alcohol in
the house? And I said, yeah, there's half a bottle of wine on the balcony. And he, and he just, he
said, okay, I'm just, I'm going to, I'm going to throw this away. Okay. And it was the first time
that I was willing and prepared to drink. And he said, I'm going to, I'm going to throw this away.
And I was prepared to have alcohol thrown down the sink because I was done. I was absolutely done.
You know, I hadn't showered for about two weeks or cleaned my teeth. I didn't do those kinds of
things when I was drinking and my hair had been up in this really kind of messy bun. And, you know,
it was so glued together with alcoholic sweat that I couldn't get it out. And so he had to
physically cut this massive chunk out of my hair. I couldn't stand up. He had to like shower me in
the, I was sitting in the bath and he was showering me and, you know, and,
for the next like three or so days, I was just throwing up, dry heaving, shaking, all of the
above. And, and he kept saying to me, you know, do you think that you should go to hospital? And I
was like, I'm just going to ride these out. You know, I just want to ride them out. And I, and,
you know, for a very long time, I was quite ashamed that he had seen me that way. But actually
looking back, I am so grateful that he did see me in that place because he can see now how bad it
got.
You know, and, and, and why my recovery comes first.
Well, it takes a lot of trust to, to let somebody help you like that, especially when you're at the
very end. And, you know, the, the fact that he helped you when you needed help the most,
I think says a lot about your willingness to do what the very next thing was you needed to do,
like stop and then go back to AA. So all this was going on prior to the 19th of September
of 2021.
So that last drink, you told us about that a little bit earlier,
that period was really rough until you came back in. So you've been sober now a thousand.
And 18 days.
Tell me about that period of time and what you've been doing to strengthen and support your own
program, but to be of service and to work the steps and so forth with regard to working the
steps and having a sponsor.
When I got sober and I came into that meeting,
which is now my home group coming in and saying, I'm Helen and I'm on day one. And people were just
so, so grateful to see me, see me alive. And, you know, and just, just seeing and hearing people
applaud that I was on day one, because I'd never said that before. And I remember being in the
breakout room afterwards with the, with the women. And I remember sitting on my couch and I had this
like sudden sense that I was going to be okay. And I feel that it was at that point where,
where the desire to drink was lifted. You know, that was the miracle that I had never experienced
before. And I got to bed sober that night and I woke up the next day and I couldn't wait to tell
people that I was on day two. And I came in and I said, I'm Helen, I'm an alcoholic and I'm on day
two. And people were cheering for me. And, you know, it's the group of drunks that initially
were my higher power and, and just helped to keep me sober. You know, and when I was,
when I was a week sober, I was a week sober.
I was asked to read by an incredible lady, um, called Nikki and she's, she's passed on now,
but, um, you know, and we all miss her, miss her so much, but she was my grand sponsor,
um, eventually. And, uh, she asked me to read page three, three, seven of the big book. And
it's in the chapter crossing the river, a river of denial. And, uh, the paragraph says I got deeply
involved in AA service because you told me if I did, I would never have to drink again. You said,
as long as I put AA,
first in my life, everything that I put second would be first class. This has proved to be true
over and over again. So I continued to put AA and God first and everything I ever lost was
returned many times over. And I remember when I read that and, um, and it funnily enough,
it was in the big book that I had been given on the 31st of August. And I had never opened that
book until that day, two years. And what would it have been? 27 days.
Right. I opened up the book and I, that was the first thing that I read, right. It was like a
light bulb moment. And I was just like, all I had to do was put my recovery first. And from that
moment, you know, I threw myself in. Um, and I was, I was doing all the suggestions. I got myself
a sponsor. I did everything. And I still do everything that my sponsor tells me to do.
And she's taken me through the big book word for word, you know, and service is a massive,
massive part of my recovery. Um, I mean, I go to so many meetings,
a day, my sponsor said to me, you know, put as much work into your recovery as you did into
your drinking, you know? And, um, and so I, I do an early morning meeting. I do my home group at
one o'clock. And then, um, because my sponsor actually, uh, as I mentioned before, she's moved
back to LA, we were trying to find a meeting that would suit both of our time zones. So I go to a
3 PM meeting, which is 7 AM for her and, you know, a splattering of others here and there,
and I'm always doing service and I love it. You know, I'm always involved. I'm really
got deeply involved in, in AA service. But for me, like the, the biggest service that I can
ever do in any day is, you know, is to be of service to another alcoholic. That is,
that is my passion. That's what I love to do. Yeah. Once you get the program,
once you're staying sober, once you're doing the things you need to do that,
practicing the principles and all our affairs and, and, uh, you know, being there for the
alcoholic who needs you and wants you, those are so extraordinarily important. You mentioned
that, uh, that you do a lot of meetings are all these zoom or what, what percentage of the
meetings you go to now are in-person live meetings. Most of the meetings I do are zoom,
um, because I work from home and I have, I have a very busy job and I do mainly zoom when I do
in-person meetings, it's normally because I'm chairing. Um, and I love doing that, you know,
and I, and, uh, I do love going to in-person meetings. I really, really do. Um,
but I also really enjoy the zoom meetings. I just, I really enjoy the connections that I have
all over the world. You know, I've got friends now all over the world. I never feel alone because
I've got people on the other side of the world who are still awake. You know, if I wake up in
the middle of the night and I've got anxiety, you know, it doesn't happen often when I was,
I turned a year sober and I was overthinking things and things just got a little bit too
much for me. And, and I remember having anxiety for the, for the first time,
really, since I got sober and it wasn't about drinking. I didn't want to drink.
I didn't really know her at the time, but I, I messaged this lady over in, um, San Diego and,
you know, she helped me and we spoke for about 45 minutes and then, you know, and then we spoke the
next day and now she's become my best friend, you know, and that's who I'm going to go and see over
in San Diego in September. Oh, that's wonderful. Exactly. I mean, zoom for me has really been
phenomenal. It's been, it's been a huge part of my, um, AA journey in the sense of connections
as well. Speaking of those connections, what, what has your connection been with
other women as their sponsor? I love, I love being a sponsor. Um, it was funny when I was
going through my steps and my sponsor would say to me, you know, one day when you're a sponsor
and I would just kind of freeze and I was like, I'm not ready to do that. You know, I'm not ready
to be a sponsor, but you know, it was before I finished my steps. I think I was still on step 11
or 10 or 11 and somebody asked me to, um, sponsor them. And I was, I was really hoping that she
would, and I was ready for it. And I was like, and I asked my sponsor and, uh, and I said,
she's asked me, you know, is it, do you think I'm ready? And she said, do you think you're ready?
And I said, yeah, I think I'm ready. And she was like, I think you're ready. I just, I love it
being able to help someone and take other women through the big, but when I was, when I was so
helpless myself.
It's just a miracle. I mean, that is, that is one of the biggest gifts that I can actually
help other people. It's had its ups and downs. Um, tell me about some of the downs, uh, because
I think what people are most, one of the things that's so important to people sitting in AA rooms
or being on AA zoom calls is especially when somebody who was sharing has, you know, years
or decades of time, there's the, uh, assumption that their life must be going pretty good.
Cause they're still sober after all this time, but everybody's life always has its ups and downs.
And the question is, how did you stay sober during the downs? And can you point to a particular
incident or two where your sobriety really got tested and your desire to stay sober or stay alive
prevailed? Yeah. So I've had a couple of things recently. The first one I'll speak about is,
um, outside of AA, um, I'm going to go back to my sister who has cancer and, you know, that's,
that is a very difficult time for all of us, you know, but not once since I got sober, not once
have I thought about picking up a drink on that, you know, and, um, and she's not, I mean, I, we
don't really know how long she's got left, but, um, you know, she didn't even think that she would
be with us even last, uh, April, you know? And so when I go over and see her in September, that's
probably going to be a big deal. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,
the last time that I see her, you know, and, um, she's one of my biggest supports now,
you know, she really is. And it's, it's incredible since I got sober, I have never wanted to pick up
a drink over, you know, that situation. Um, however she, you know, however much she is
declining, so to speak. Um, but man, she's a fighter. She's incredible. Um, but then recently
I will talk about a situation. I have, um, I had a sponsee up until very recently,
um, who is very, very unwell and she has a lot of outside issues and it's not even that,
that was the difficult thing. Um, but you know, she did get up to, uh, two months of,
of sobriety, completely clean and sober. Um, and you know, it was, it was very draining,
not that she was a burden at all. I'm not saying that at all, but my emotional sobriety really
started to get out of balance. And, um, I was finding myself quite exhausted and getting
physically unwell myself with sort of tension, headaches and things. And the reality is that she,
when she relapsed after two months, it was evident that she just wasn't willing, you know,
and she didn't want it enough. And I did see a big change in her when she, uh, when she relapsed,
she, she had this gear shift and,
um, and I was, I was very, I would, you know, and I said, I was happy to carry on sponsoring her.
Um, because at that point I didn't know if there was any more that I was able to do for her. Um,
but since then, you know, it's, it's, that willingness has kind of declined and it's,
and it's, and it's devastating to see, you know, the illness. And, you know, I was told that God
doesn't put two people together to only help one of them. You know, this whole situation has helped
me to realize why I never want to pick up another drink.
Yeah, that's very, very true. And especially when we talk about the importance of sponsorship,
sponsorship being about keeping the person who's sponsoring sober while teaching the person who's
being sponsored, how to sponsor other people. Uh, and, and the fact that you were able to deal with
that very heartbreaking and disappointing situation, but not drink yourself and be able to see,
the gifts in that otherwise very tragic situation to me, anytime I hear anybody expressing in that
way, I feel very uplifted and very confident that their personal sobriety is probably fully intact
and really moving forward in a very positive way. So I think that's something that people
need to hear more of. And that is I sponsored someone who didn't stay sober, but I stayed sober
and until the next person I sponsor, and then we'll see if they stay.
Sober, but I'm not going to drink. To me, it speaks to the strength and the working of your
program that you are doing the things that you need to do to stay sober and to be of service to
other people. And that that's a wonderful place to be. It's, I'm just incredibly grateful. You
know, I've got a very strong sponsor and during this whole process, you know, I've had to revisit
like steps three and step seven and do steps, uh, you know, the step three prayer, the step seven
prayer, you know, step three. I mean, you know, how, how can I be of use to anybody when I am in
such bondage with myself? Right. So I've got another sponsor who is, she, she absolutely
goes to any lengths, but she's, she's got struggles, you know, in her life. And I was
having to make sure that I was, I was being of maximum service to her. That's my one and only
job, right? It talks about it in the book to be of maximum service to God. Right. But I have a
purpose today. This is, I never knew that I had a purpose and I always wondered,
why, why am I an alcoholic? You know, not what makes me an alcoholic. I know now, you know,
I, I'm allergic to alcohol. I have that abnormal reaction. I know about the mental obsession and
the, you know, phenomenon of craving and all of that. And, but I, um, I've always wanted to know
why, you know, and it was, it was when I finished my steps and I became a sponsor, you know, I,
I started to realize maybe, maybe this was always part of the plan. This was my higher powers plan.
Maybe I was born to be an alcoholic and maybe I had to go through, you know, a lot of pain in my
childhood and trauma and, you know, all of that dark times and everything. Maybe I had to do that
so that it brought me to the gates of insanity and death and suicide attempt, all of that kind
of stuff to bring me to the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous so that I could go through the 12 steps
just so that I can help another alcoholic. Like that is my purpose today. And a great demonstration
of God working in our lives is everything that you just said.
What a gift.
What a gift it is. And it's in, in, and you work an extraordinary program and I've really enjoyed
talking with you today and having you share your story on AA Recovery Interviews. I honor your
sobriety and I wish you many, many more days and weeks and months and years. And I appreciate your
spending the time with me today.
Thank you so much, Howard, for asking me. What a gift to be able to sit here today.
Again,
many thanks for doing this.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
Well, my friends, that's a wrap for this episode of AA Recovery Interviews.
Thanks to Helen M. for sharing her story. And thank you for tuning in. If you enjoyed
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