Legions in AA Who’ve Never Read the Book or Worked a Step – Earl H.

My name's Earl, I'm an alcoholic, and I am finally Master of the Baskets.
All right.
Right, I used to do that. When I first went to work, when I got sober,
every time they'd send me a, I'd go get my paycheck every two weeks,
and I'd take the envelope and I'd go,
Not enough to live on.
Correct.
How long should one wait before telling a story or being a part of an event such as this one?
That's easy. When they ask you, do it.
Like, I think Don talked about that, you know, we don't come running up here and go,
you know, I'd like to do that.
If you're doing that, you ain't ready.
You know, it's just, it happens the way it's supposed to.
Earl, I stole about $800 worth of stamps from the post office vending machine.
Should I make my amends by walking into the post office to make payment arrangements,
or should I send payments anonymously?
Thanks.
That guy over here went, oh, mail it to them.
And, you know what, making amends is making amends.
If you want to mail it to them, mail it to them.
If you want to, you know, you stole something of value,
and you want to replace the value of that to somebody, great.
If you want to walk in, if you feel that it's necessary for you,
the question I always ask myself when making amends,
whether financial or otherwise, is how free do I want to be?
How free do you want to be?
You want to be free, you know, you're the one that's going to have to answer that.
Look in your own heart.
Quiet the mind, sit still.
The answers will come if your house is in order, right?
Just be still.
The answers will come.
You'll know what you need to do, right?
And if you go into the post office and you say, look, I stole a bunch of stamps,
and somebody hits a button, get the hell out of there.
Get out of there.
My sponsor says, quote, if you get the urge to use, call me, end quote.
However, historically, if I get the urge to use,
I have already decided to use, and the urge is greater than the desire to call.
What to do, what to do.
One of the things that I think is amazing about being,
being sober and getting the urge,
there's a difference, I think, between an urge and an obsession.
You know what I mean?
That impulse to use.
A lot of us find that we have no defense at certain times.
We get the, it's like, gee, I feel like using.
And your mind goes into this strange space where it just goes,
oh, well, screw it now, you know.
Guys, got to go do that.
Don talked about it.
When he was talking,
about contrary action and what you do
and how he deals with procrastination.
And he alluded when he said, you know,
how I deal with procrastination is I pick up the thing
that I'm procrastinating doing and I begin to do it.
I take the contrary action.
I take the action.
It's amazing, it's amazing how attached you are to the feelings that we have.
And if it doesn't feel good, I don't want to do it.
You know, that's the contrary action a lot of times for us,
is doing it when it doesn't feel good to do it.
Calling your sponsor and saying,
I feel like using.
And the sponsor's role in that,
when I'm called by somebody I sponsor and they say,
I feel like using, I say, all right, let's walk through it.
Let's see, you know, what happens if you use.
Let's talk about it.
Let's delay gratification, right?
Because there's the immediacy of that need for immediate gratification.
And if what I do is delay that gratification and think it out,
it's interesting.
It seems that the desire to use will pass whether I use or not.
And it would, how great it is to be able to use.
To be able to get to that place finally where I've had a desire to use,
I didn't use, and the desire to use passes.
And to have my own experience that, that's possible for somebody like me.
There's always that first time that you do that.
Make sense?
Earl, how can I be like you when I grow up?
You presume that I have grown up.
You don't want to be like me.
You want to be like you, right?
Who we find in here is ourselves.
You know, who I've been introduced to in here is me.
I'll guarantee you this.
I don't know who wrote it, and it doesn't make any bit of difference whatsoever.
Who you will find in here is yourself.
And when you do, you will be pleasantly surprised.
You will be pleasantly surprised.
Have you ever been to a city where,
the recovery sounds not so strong?
And if so, what would you recommend for somebody to do
if they found themselves in such a city?
You know, I mean, it's just, it's really funny to me.
The image of that, right?
Of an alcoholic going into a city and going,
going into a meeting in a city he's never been in before,
and looking around and standing and suddenly saying,
I find the recovery here beneath me.
Here's my number.
If you guys want to get it together, by all means call.
Marching out of the meeting.
If I find, if I go someplace and there's recovery that's taking place,
then I'm someplace where there's recovery.
There's recovery taking place.
I don't know what God's will is for me.
How am I going to know what it is for you or for recovery in a city?
Yeah, I've been to places where I think the AA is great and the NA is awful.
I've been to other cities where I thought the NA was great and the AA was awful.
Usually for me, it's when I feel that they veered from the code.
You know what I mean?
And when I feel that there's judgment and a lack of tolerance going on left and right.
That scares me and I run away from it.
That's not because I don't feel safe there and I need to feel safe in recovery.
But what I do is I leave.
I had a home group for a while and eventually I started calling it the mean women in AA group.
Because the women in this meeting were just mean as junkyard dogs, man.
And it was personalities before principles from the opening bell till they said amen at the end of the meeting.
And I just thought that they were being mean and cruel and insensitive to the younger women that were coming into the meeting.
And I thought it was divisive and I didn't think it was bringing people together at all.
And I didn't like it.
And my first reaction was that I was going to start to take them on.
Right?
I'm going to get into it now.
I'm going to bite down on this problem and I'm never letting go.
Right?
And then from the recesses of my brain, I hear the voice of Donald Madden.
The late great Donald Madden.
The original sponsor saying, you know, oh, wonderful.
Look at you.
And I'm like, huh?
We just don't get into it.
That's what we do.
We don't get into it.
We don't.
I'm not getting into the controversy.
There's nothing.
The people that love the controversy, that love the discord, that can't be happy unless there's disharmony, dis-ease around them.
You know, because they have problems.
Other than alcoholism, in my opinion.
Those people that just love to get into it, I'm not getting into it with them.
I agree with Don.
I'm not getting into it with them.
Because that's what they're looking for.
They're dying for me to get into it with them.
So that they can create an identity for themselves for being in opposition to me or him or some other guy.
And that's how they're comfortable.
In opposition to things.
I don't want to get into it.
Because it's not about resolving anything.
It's about being in opposition to.
I don't want to live like that.
So I don't.
I don't dance.
Just let them dance.
If you just let them dance by themselves, eventually they get tired and sit down.
But if I get up and go, I'll dance with you.
You're an idiot.
You're an idiot.
You're an idiot.
You're an idiot.
You're an idiot.
You know, they're just like, this is fun.
And I'm thinking, no, I'm not having fun.
This is miserable.
I don't want to do it.
So I went and got another group.
I went and joined another group.
Have your mean women in AA meeting.
I'm going over here.
How do you continue to feel as though you live in AA and go out and visit the world
rather than live in the world and go out and go visit AA?
And can you elaborate on this?
Well, you're assuming that that's how I feel about it.
And actually, I don't live in AA and visit the world.
To the contrary.
I live in the world and I come to AA.
The whole point of AA is for me to be able to live life on life's terms.
I mean, what I love about it is the guy in AA that talks about it like this.
We get together in meetings and we get together and it's like a football game.
This is the huddle.
You know what I mean?
And we huddle up and we go, okay, remember, we're bodily and mentally different from our fellows.
Ready, break.
We go out into the world.
We go out into the world.
We go out into the world and we try to function from a code of love and tolerance towards others.
We try to get out of ourself and be of service.
We try to bring unity, service, and recovery, mind, body, and spirit into each thing.
We do our deal in the world.
We come back at the meetings.
How are you doing in the world?
Doing great, man.
You know what I mean?
No wreckage.
Did this, did this.
They're going, how are you doing?
How are you doing?
How are you doing?
So, I mean, the principles of AA go with me everywhere I go because that's how I choose to live my life.
But I come to AA on a regular basis.
I touch base.
I check in.
And it happens not just when I go to meetings.
It happens.
It happens all day long.
I'm talking to this guy's sponsor on the phone between going here and going there, checking in with my sponsor,
Sobriety Brothers.
We're on the phone talking.
We're doing this and that.
So I'm in the arms of my fellows all day long.
But I go out there and mix it up with them.
That's what I do.
Without having to announce every step of the way that I'm in AA.
Okay.
I was told that the greatest thing I could share was my pain.
What is your pain?
Please be specific.
I'm kind of an upbeat guy.
And I like sharing solution.
But I don't mind.
I have no objection to sharing my pain.
A pain that I'm experiencing.
Here's a perfect example.
I'm currently having an experience in my life.
Where a long-standing relationship in my life is at a crossroads.
With a fellow member of Alcoholics Anonymous.
I feel hurt.
Betrayed.
Broken hearted.
Over some recent events.
And soon to be resolved, I'm sure.
And.
Faced to the point where my wife was saying.
Man, you just haven't been yourself for a few days.
It's about this thing, isn't it?
And I said, yeah.
I'm not getting.
I'm not.
I'm losing sleep.
I'm going over and over and over and over and over.
But here's the solution to that.
Here's the recovery to that.
Everyday life experience that we've all had.
Is I'm not laying awake thinking about what he's done.
And how I'm going to make this about him.
And this and that.
I'm laying awake thinking about.
Is my side of the street clean?
Have I done anything to offend?
Have I aroused jealousy or suspicion?
What's my part in this?
Is my side of the street clean?
I'm not taking his inventory on this.
I'm taking my own.
And I'm going to take my feelings.
And I sought the counsel.
I called my sponsor.
And I said, here's my problem.
Here's the tools that I'm thinking of putting in place.
Do you have any thoughts?
He said, yes.
This, this, this, and this.
And I said, I'll do as you suggest.
I've spoken to a couple of other individuals about this.
Who've given me some very specific suggestions.
Which I have taken to heart.
And I will utilize in addressing this situation in my life.
And I'm just going to let it be what it is.
You know, my job is to show up and address this.
In as honorable a way as I possibly can.
The outcome of this is not up to me.
I got to just stay in this.
So, there you go.
There's some pain.
And there's what I'm doing about it.
And if you'll notice, I'm having a great weekend in the face of that.
Are we in danger today?
Are we in danger?
I can't read this one.
Anybody know their question?
We're in danger today.
I'm an explosion?
Does anybody know this?
Anybody's question?
Nobody wants to own this question?
All right, I'll table that question.
I can't read it.
How do you talk to adolescents about alcoholism?
Very directly.
Very honestly.
Very simply.
It's like I talk to adults about alcoholism.
I'm particularly.
I have a high degree of admiration for an adolescent wrestling with their alcoholism.
I find any adolescent that comes to me and says,
Hey, I'm, you know, 15 years old and I'm trying to get sober.
Right off the bat, I'm amazed.
And have amazing respect for that.
I mean, at 15, I was.
Are you kidding me?
At 15, no way did I possess the consciousness required to begin to even.
To even begin to wrestle with my alcoholism.
So for an adolescent to be addressing that, I think, is remarkable.
So I approach them with a great deal of respect.
And I treat them with respect.
One alcoholic talking to another.
I don't talk down to an adolescent about alcoholism.
Because if he's got alcoholism, I mean, that's a 15-year-old with 80-year-old eyes, most likely.
You know what I mean?
That's not your standard 15-year-old.
So, with respect.
With respect.
With respect.
That's the explosion one.
Well, I'm talking about the explosion of a guy that wanted to have sex with his wife at two years.
I'm.
Somebody will be contacting you to come up here next year.
That's.
What guidance would you give to guys who have been in and out.
For years.
What if they go in and out so much, they stop telling the group?
How do we address this?
Address it?
I'm being careful.
Here's what I think about people who go in and out and in and out and in and out.
I think that they are people.
That go in and out and in and out and in and out.
That's what I think.
And if they come in and say, I have a desire to stop drinking.
Would you help me?
My answer is, absolutely.
Extend the hand of AA.
I don't know.
Like I said, I don't know what God's will is for me.
I don't know.
How am I going to know what it is for them?
I've seen guys go in and out and in and out and in and out for years and get sober and come to no long-term sobriety.
Seen it a lot.
I've also seen guys go in and out and in and out for years.
I've also seen guys go in and out and in and out for years and get sober and come to no long-term sobriety.
I've also seen guys go in and out and in and out for years and ultimately die as a direct result of their alcoholism and drug addiction.
When a guy comes in through that door and says, help, it is my job to extend the hand of AA.
That's it.
Let's start working here.
Let's get a big book.
Let's start reading the book.
Give me a call.
We'll talk.
That's it.
That's it.
I pass judgment on that.
One alcoholic judging another is the stupidest thing I've ever heard of in my life.
I am in no position.
I mean, how am I?
You've heard my story.
How am I going to say, you got drunk again?
How could you do such a thing?
I am in shock.
No.
Am I going to say to the guy, I think possibly you might be in danger of getting comfortable going in and out and in and out and in and out.
To me, that's a terrifying concept.
And I think each time you do that, the presumption is that you're going to get back every time.
You might not.
I've seen those guys too.
In and out, in and out, in and out.
Coming around meetings drunk suddenly.
Not cleaning up.
Coming in drunk and going, you know, I can't get sober.
A guy I got sober with, Jimmy Atherton.
God bless him.
He's been around AA as long as me.
Died last year.
And I remember seeing him two weeks before he died.
Out in front of a meeting, 7.30 a.m. meeting.
Jimmy walks up.
He goes, ah, there's Earl.
Earl loves me.
He won't judge me.
And I said, you're absolutely right, Jimmy.
I love you and I won't judge you.
But.
But you look like you're dying.
You look like you're melting.
It's so bad.
Because his liver is so bad.
He'd drink, shoot dope, go to the hospital, stay in the hospital for a while,
get out into a sober living house, drink, shoot dope, right, go back into the hospital.
And that was his little triangle.
His world had shrunk to, you know, a week here, a week here, a week here.
Back out a week, over here a week, recover.
And 80% of his liver was gone.
And I just said, what you're doing doesn't seem to work and you don't seem happy at all to me.
And he goes, I'm a miserable man.
And I wish I'd die.
Two weeks later he did.
And he didn't overdose.
His body just said, that's it.
Can't do it anymore.
His body just shut down.
Just shut down and died.
So the in and out and in and out, rough, that's rough turf, man.
It's rough turf.
I don't have what it takes to do that.
The guy's in and out and in and out.
My job is let's go to a meeting, work the steps, let's get you a sponsor.
I'll sponsor you.
You'll get that guy to sponsor you.
We'll do whatever you want.
We'll do our part for you.
God willing, you'll do your part and you'll stay sober.
If not, it's not for me to decide.
Would I talk about profanity a little bit?
Good, bad, he's asking.
Me?
Don't have a problem with profanity at all.
Don't have a problem with it.
How I do it is if I see children in the room, I watch it.
Out of respect to the child and the parents.
That's it.
I mean, I just come with courtesy.
You know, if they say to me, please don't, you know.
I have a defiant nature.
And I think a lot of these questions, a lot of these questions are about
kind of, kind of, just kind of ease up a little bit on the defiance
one can find in an alcoholic such as myself.
My sponsor, Donald, used to have a Sunday night group.
And he called me up.
He called me up one day and he said,
I'm having a Sunday night group at the house and you have to be there.
And I said, well, see, now you went and screwed that up for me.
Because, you know, I would have loved to have come to that meeting.
But now you told me I got to come, so I ain't coming.
And I can't repeat what he said because
it was extremely, there was a great deal of profanity in the sentence.
So I wouldn't go.
So he would start the meeting.
Every Sunday night, letting the people in the group know where everybody was.
If people were out of town, he would announce that so no one would worry about
anybody in the group.
And he would say, welcome to the Sunday night meeting.
Stephen is in San Francisco.
Christopher is in Texas.
And Earl is in defiance.
Every week, he would do this.
Right?
That was his way of saying,
Earl is a member of this group and we're not letting him get away with this.
We're just going to keep poking at him, right?
And it's true.
I'm defiant by nature.
And I love the idea of getting the dukes up and, you know,
being, like I said before, in opposition to stuff.
And it's so easy how quickly and readily I am willing to jump into the fray.
And one of the things that Alcoholics Anonymous is absolutely famous for
is controversy.
We've had controversy.
We've had controversy in AA since there was three members.
What do you mean we're doing that?
I don't want to do that.
What the hell's wrong with you two guys?
Here we go.
And it's always been that way.
Right before I came in in the 70s, late 70s in L.A.,
everybody was suddenly hypoglycemic.
There was just a big furor about hypoglycemia.
After that, it was the inner child came in.
Everybody was flipping out about the inner child thing.
I went to a meeting today.
And if I had been new, I would have thought all you need to get sober
is a teddy bear and a hug.
And ranting and raving about these people over here.
What's the matter with these people?
And when I'm done talking about them, I'm getting after these idiots over here.
What's the matter?
And it's just whirling stuff.
You know what I mean?
And you're the new guy in the back going,
Teddy bear? Do I need a teddy bear?
You know?
Somebody hug me quick.
Just losing our minds, right?
You know, the bleeding deacons.
And, you know, now it's antidepressants.
Damn, these people are not sober.
And I think, what are you?
I'm a retired plumber.
Oh, well, I'm going to take my medical advice from you.
Thank you very much.
What the hell's going on, man?
Right?
I mean, and I got lots of opinions on yay or nay,
or I think that's okay,
or that's not okay.
And everybody else got their opinions about that stuff, too.
And it's all big controversy around AA.
And, you know, what about the guy going in and out?
What about, you know, men's groups and women's groups?
I don't believe that's in line with the traditions.
And, you know, gay AA?
What's the matter with those people?
Why don't they just come to AA?
And all you druggies, for Christ's sake.
How many people in here use alcohol only?
How many?
Boy, that's a tiny-ass conference.
If you're the one who's using it,
you're the only ones in here.
And you know what?
I'm a drug addict.
Yeah.
And you know what?
When I go to CA to speak, I identify,
my name's Earl, and I'm an addict.
When I go to Alcoholics Anonymous,
I don't care how many people in here use like me,
use drugs like me.
When I come in here, I say,
my name's Earl, and I'm an alcoholic.
For one simple reason.
Those guys are here.
Those guys are here.
Respect.
Respect.
I respect my elders today.
I go to speak at a meeting, and they say,
Scott said to me when he said,
will you come out here and speak,
and you don't need a tie.
He made a point of telling me,
you don't need a tie,
because he knows if nothing's said,
I'm going to bring one.
I'm going to bring a suit and a tie,
and I'm not a suit and tie boy,
but I will bring a suit and tie
to show respect to my elders,
and I'll do it until the day I die.
Is that evidence of my respect for AA?
In my opinion, not nearly as much
as how I live my life.
That's my respect for Alcoholics Anonymous,
how I walk out the door and try to do things
during the course of a day.
But this controversy thing is just crap,
as far as I'm concerned.
It's all crap.
It's all outside issues.
You want controversy?
Here's what I think the controversy is
in Alcoholics Anonymous.
How come there's so many people
in Alcoholics Anonymous
who've never read the big book?
Legions of them.
How come there's so many people
in Alcoholics Anonymous
who've never worked a step?
Legions of them.
How come there's so many people in AA
that don't have a sponsor,
don't understand what a sponsor is?
How come there's so many people
sponsoring people
that have never worked a steps?
What are they saying to them?
And I think as AA members,
if what we do is we go out
into Alcoholics Anonymous,
function as members of AA,
as outlined in our text,
our program,
work the 12 steps as outlined in the book
with the aid of a sponsor,
have an experience as a result
of working those steps,
turn around and start giving that away
to these other guys.
Just that.
Not having to pretty it up.
Not having to bring in all this other crap.
But just stick to this.
Stick to this stuff.
All these other things
that are so controversial
just kind of seem to disappear.
Because it's a non-issue.
Somebody says to me,
what do you think about antidepressants?
I have no opinion on that.
Just what AA says.
You want to talk to me outside?
Maybe I'll get into it with you.
Maybe I won't.
Right?
But I won't do it in here.
Not in here.
And I agree with Don.
I don't want to get into it that much.
But the only thing
that ever got me up in a meeting,
was when they were passing around some stuff
because they were thinking about changing
the 164 pages.
That shot me up out of my chair
like nobody's business.
I was like, no, I'll quit my job
and go on a rant
that lasts until
that gets put to bed.
I ain't laying down for that one.
You want me to take this story, do that story?
You want to touch that 164?
I don't think so.
And you might roll me out of bed
and get me riled up if you go anywhere near
his opinion.
That being Silkworth right over there,
the doctor's opinion.
Anyway.
What do you suggest about helping a newcomer
who only goes to one meeting a week
and doesn't call anybody?
I like that question.
I get into trouble about this
all the time.
A guy who's a sponsor
used to call me up.
He'd say, hello?
And he'd say, Earl, it's...
We'll call him Ted.
Earl, it's Ted.
I'd say, what is it, Ted?
I'm afraid.
Yeah, I can hear that in your voice, Ted.
Ted, I've got to ask you.
It's like
2.30 in the morning.
Well, Ted,
did you go to a meeting today?
No.
Have you read the big book?
Have you got on your knees and prayed today, Ted?
Have you read the big book?
Have you gotten out of yourself
and been of service to anybody else?
Have you done anything
to defend your recovery today, Ted?
Well, no.
Well, I was good talking to you, Ted.
Click.
Hey, people,
how can you do that?
Poor, suffering newcomer.
Ted has nine years.
Poor, suffering alcoholic.
Poor, suffering alcoholic
in the bed, paralyzed with a fear,
and you're going to talk to him like this.
He'll go, time out.
Ted has never gone to regular meetings regularly.
Ted has never gotten out of himself
and sponsored anybody else
or worked with anybody else.
He doesn't have anything to give him.
He's never worked the steps.
He has refused to do anything
and he has been absolutely miserable
the entire time he's been there.
He has managed somehow,
inexplicably,
not to drink this whole time.
And what am I going to do?
Am I going to give Ted the message
that this is okay?
It's okay, Ted.
Let's talk about it
because, you know,
when you haven't done anything
all day long
in defense of your own recovery
and at 2.30 in the morning
you think it's a good time to call me,
I'm going to promote that thinking, Ted.
I'm going to give you the impression
that on some level,
this may work.
That this plan you're executing
may somehow at some point
relieve you of the painful nature of your life.
I'm not sending Ted that signal.
I'm sending Ted the signal
based on my experience.
If you want to feel different, Ted,
you've got to stop doing the things
that are causing you to feel this way.
Get up in the morning,
go to a meeting and call me back.
But if you don't want to go to a meeting,
don't call me.
If you're not going to spend,
make any effort to defend
your own recovery,
why are you calling me
and expecting me to put my time
and energy into your recovery?
And also, Ted, frankly,
if your alcoholism hasn't beaten you
into a state of reasonableness,
how the hell do you think I'm going to?
Your illness is far more powerful than I am.
Okay.
The next day, Ted calls,
he's been to a meeting
and magically feels a little better.
Got up, got up,
got took a shower,
shaved, got dressed,
went to an AA meeting
and called his sponsor.
This day was looking fundamentally different
than the day that had thrown Ted
into this maelstrom of pain
and self-centeredness.
It works that way.
So that's what I'm going to tell Ted.
I'm not going to encourage Ted
to talk about it.
What is a suggestion in dating
for guys with less than 30 days?
Or not completed the steps.
Two very different scenarios.
Two very different scenarios.
Dating in your first 30 days.
I would respectfully suggest
that in your first 30 days,
if you're thinking about,
anything other than this,
you're teetering on the edge
of the precipice.
You're in trouble.
Trust me when I tell you,
she'll be there.
Whoever the hell she is.
Right?
I mean, it's like the guy
going to the meeting.
And besides,
if you're under 30 days, man,
how good a picker have you got
picking some girl?
You know?
You're out of your mind.
Gee, I wonder what you're looking for.
Right?
It's that deal where you look across the room
and your eyes meet hers, you know?
And you think to yourself,
well, she could fix it.
She could definitely make everything okay.
Right?
And you're watching her like a hawk.
And then in the beginning,
you need to say,
with those in their first 30 days,
please raise your hand.
Certainly her hand goes up
and her sleeve falls back
to expose the hospital band.
Isn't she a sir?
Do yourself a favor.
Look around the room for a sponsor.
Stop looking at her
and get a sponsor fast.
Get the guy sitting next to you.
I don't care if he's even awake.
Wake him up.
You're my sponsor.
Why?
Because I want her.
Why?
Got a reason as any.
All right.
Or haven't completed the steps.
I think you do yourself.
Look, there's a lot of mythology in AA.
You know?
If you're in LA,
you shouldn't get a relationship
in your first year.
Flight to New York, it's six months.
I'm going to figure Chicago,
nine and a half, ten months probably.
What the hell do I know?
Right?
I mean, it's just,
these are guidelines.
I've never met anybody
who didn't get in a relationship
in their first year
that had the option
of getting in one.
Right?
I'm not getting in a relationship
in my first year.
Who's that?
Just shiny.
She's shiny.
She's shiny.
Or that little wasp,
the waff, the perfume goes by
and we just become just, you know,
three-toed troglodytes.
You know?
Smell good, must have.
Bring it out all your best charm
because you've been out there
slamming dope and drinking like a madman.
You're a clever, charming guy.
You walk up and go,
me like you.
Just avoid a lot of pain and suffering, man.
Just stick with this for a little while.
That's going to be there.
You see the women walking around
in the meetings, right?
Yeah.
Look at them all and go,
no, no, I don't.
I'm unaware of females in a meeting.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Get into the steps, man.
Catch the buzz.
Catch the buzz.
And when you date,
my criteria for dating
when I was early in sobriety,
a year, two years, three years, four years,
was as long as she's got a sponsor
and working the same time,
she's going to be there.
She's going to be there.
She's going to be there.
She's going to be there.
She's going to be there.
She's going to be there.
She's going to go in the steps,
going to regular meetings regularly.
I'm going to stay out of her program.
I'm going to work mine
and date her and get to know her as a human being.
She tells me she stopped working the steps.
She hadn't been to a meeting in a while.
She's not talking as much.
Now I've got to, ooh, ooh.
I don't want to date untreated alcoholism.
Been there, done that.
Thank you.
No.
Had a woman I've been with for years
decide she got sober when she was 14 years old
and she decided she was going to drink
like a normal human being.
I've known her for a while.
had never perceived her as a normal human being.
She got drunk, I got an apartment.
Boom.
Another woman I was dating,
I found out that she'd been using a little of that morphine-based cough syrup
for a slight cough she had.
And I said, are you out?
And she said, yes, that was on a Sunday evening.
Tuesday afternoon, I was putting the sheets on the bed in my new apartment.
I got the hell out of the way.
Both times I got out of the way was a really good idea.
Really good idea.
Now, if you focus on the dating, you've got a bad plan, I think.
Can you give a picture of how sponsorship has changed for you,
both in how you sponsor and are sponsored?
Yeah, that's a great question.
Sponsorship.
How I've been sponsored is,
I took enough of a beating out there, I don't need a hostile sponsor.
That's just me.
Some guys love the ass-kicking, yelling, screaming, angry, hostile sponsor.
I don't got any need for that.
I looked around, I find a sponsor.
My picker was broken.
It's a God shot that I got the sponsor.
I got out of the bed.
I got the late, great Donald Madden,
who loved me when I needed loving,
and got to know me.
It went way beyond the call of a sponsor.
The responsibility of a sponsor, in my opinion,
is to take an individual through the 12 steps.
It's in the book.
To expose them to an effective use of the fellowship
of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous
as an avenue through which those 12 steps can be realized.
That's what a sponsor does.
Donald Madden, and a lot of guys go far beyond that.
I remember Scott and I were talking about it.
Saturday night, Ohio Street,
was a big, young, crazy meeting in L.A.
for many, many years.
Still is.
I was going to four meetings a week at Ohio Street.
Donald had decided that,
the Saturday night, Ohio Street meeting
was slipping a little bit.
When the next elections came,
he just took him and all the guys he sponsored,
and we went in and voted him in secretary
and took over the meeting.
I had the cleanup commitment.
I had the cleanup commitment
because I still wasn't talking to anybody,
and I didn't want to talk to anybody.
I could hang in the back, not talk to anyone.
10 o'clock, the meeting's over.
10, 15, everybody's out of there.
I could clean up the joint, lock it up, and go home
and didn't really have to deal with any other human beings.
One night, I'm standing in the back of the meeting.
The main speaker's up there.
He's flailing away.
Donald looks back.
I'm standing in the back of the meeting,
and I'm just caving in.
I'm done.
I can't do this anymore.
It's all too difficult for me.
I've got that, and what's the use going on?
I'm collapsing into myself,
and I'm just paralyzed in the back of the meeting.
Donald looks back, and he sees me stand there.
He gets up, walks up to the front of the meeting,
to the podium,
where the main speaker is in the middle of his pitch,
taps the main speaker on the shoulder.
The main speaker just goes,
just a minute, steps aside.
Donald goes to the microphone and goes,
and I'm in the back of the meeting,
and I just went,
and he said, we're having a meeting.
I went, right, right, meeting.
Just pulled me out of my head back into the room,
stepped off the podium.
The speaker came back to the microphone,
just kind of like, what's going on?
What the hell was that?
Everybody in the meeting's going, who the hell's Earl?
I'm in the back going.
That's the sponsor, and I'll tell you another thing he did.
I mean, that was an example of Donald, right?
I mean, he loved us.
We were family.
There was, you'd go to the big Thursday night Brentwood Beginner's Workshop,
and you could look, and there was Donald's row.
You could always spot the row.
John Doeg, the six-foot-eight gay homicidal maniac.
You had the angry nun.
You had a Loma who always believed all anyone ever needs in life is God and proper accessories.
Just this lunatic row, and I'm sitting down there, you know.
There's deeply disturbed people who have
been assigned to watch me.
He got this row, right?
And there we were.
I mean, I remember at that same Saturday night meeting, my commitment starts at 10.15, right?
And I'm out there on the loose after, you know, I've gotten a job painting houses, you
know, trying to wear me out all day long.
That was the goal of that job, right?
Just wear them out and send them to a meeting, right?
So I just paint, you know what I mean, until I hit a corner and just turn and paint.
You know, which was great.
Just Navajo white on Navajo white, man.
You know, I mean, just this blank screen and all this insanity pouring out on it.
And they'd say, go to a meeting.
Right.
Drop the brush.
Right?
And I get out of work and it's really early.
And I'm nuts.
I can't be alone.
I can't be alone, you know, out among them.
I'm going to hurt people.
You know?
And I've got to go to the meeting, and I know they're there.
They're there at like 6 o'clock for the 8.30 meeting.
There's guys that show up at 6, open it up, air out the building,
get all the pews all set up and the chairs set up, get the coffee going.
And they all have commitments to do that.
And I'm going to go there because I don't have any place else to go.
I know Donald's there and the guys are there, but I'm worried about the guys.
They all know my commitment's at 10.15.
They all know if I show up there early, they know I'm a loser.
They know, I mean, in my head, I'm a loser.
The imagined insults, these are the worst.
And I'm getting ready, and I realize, here's what I have to do.
Earl's best thinking.
Here I am at work, thinking it through.
Well, I'm going in the door, and the first guy that says,
what the hell are you doing here at 6 o'clock?
I'm decking him.
No one else is going to wonder what I'm doing here.
This is my brilliant plan.
So as you can imagine, I'm as jacked up and crazy as a human being can get,
marching through the back door of that building, right?
And here I come in, and Donald sees me.
And he goes right up to the podium, and he says,
Earl, it's 6.22, and you're late.
You see what he did?
He went.
He just saw me, and he knew.
He's crazy, and he needs to be with us, and I've got to make it safe here for him.
And he went up there, and he said, it's 6.22, you're late.
This is 23 years ago.
And I remember that it was 6.22.
That's how he cracked me open, was doing those things,
that kindness that just cracked me open.
He just made it safe for me to be here.
He just.
He just announced to everybody that he wanted me here at this time.
And I remember just looking at him and thinking,
how do you know?
He knew because he was an alcoholic
that he'd been relieved of the self-obsession that is inherent in our lives,
and he was available to be there to see what was going on,
what was going on with me.
And he came to my aid.
He came to my rescue.
Donald Madden, I miss him every single day.
He died July 25th, 1995.
And I miss him every day.
I had a sponsor, and I thought, well, I see, because I thought he was dead.
Donald Madden's not dead.
And I know how I know.
A couple of years later, I gave a guy I sponsored a cake for 11 years,
and he said, I want to thank my sponsor, Earl H.,
for showing me the path, showing me the way to recovery.
I want to thank the late, great Donald Madden for showing him.
I just started crying because I thought, there it is.
There's the human chain.
There's the humanity of this that my alcoholism always robbed me of.
There's the connection.
There it is.
He knows about Donald, the history of who we are, our lineage.
I'm a product of the late, great Donald Madden.
He's a product of Norm Alpey.
He's a product of Chuck.
He's a product of Bill.
I mean, there it is.
That's my lineage.
Those are my boys.
That's how I go back.
I'm bound to these people by a spiritual path.
Sponsorship is an intimate relationship.
That's why, as a general rule,
men sponsor men and women sponsor women.
Was Donald Madden a big, giant, flaming, flamboyant homosexual?
You bet your bottom dollar he was.
He flew through a room like nobody you've ever seen.
Thanks.
And I'm a hopeless heterosexual.
Was that a problem in our relationship?
Absolutely not.
Absolutely not.
Do I know women that sponsor men and men that sponsor women?
Yes.
On occasion, it's not a problem.
On occasion, it is.
So, there's all of that.
And that, of course, Billy Barty couldn't read that.
Anybody want to lay claim to that one and tell me what it says?
No.
I'll hold on to that one.
I have been at the same job for three years
and with the same woman for the same.
My question is, how do I stop the feelings I have
to run and quit both of them
before I feel stuck in a rut?
Because I feel stuck in a rut.
Well?
Again, these are the kind of questions that, you know,
there's so much information that I don't have about that,
you know,
that to give you a specific or, you know,
a specific answer to the question, it's difficult.
Thank you.
New drinking.
I always think in these kind of situations,
if both things, I'm feeling like I'm stuck in both my job and my relationship,
thinking, okay, what's the common denominator here?
Probably me.
And what I need to do is maybe,
who can change these things up is me.
Maybe I approach these things with a new attitude.
Maybe I look for ways to enhance the relationship.
Maybe I look for ways to go to work
with an attitude of being of service rather than, you know,
how do I grind this out, get my check and get out of here
with the lease?
Possible effort.
Which is the way a lot of us approach a job, right?
Is to, for me to reframe my thinking,
it's a great use of the program and what we learn here
because what we get, one of the things we get back here
is the power of choice.
I can choose to do things differently.
As a matter of fact, it can get very, very intense in your life,
choosing to do things differently.
As an example, I bought a house with my wife.
First time I bought a house.
Bought this little house.
Love the house.
Moved in.
Thought, I'm a homeowner.
Got neighbors.
What am I going to do about that?
And I have a front lawn.
I'm looking around.
Everybody got a front lawn.
Lovely lawns, right?
Going to have to, clearly going to have to keep up the front lawn
because that's how you spot the alcoholics and drug addicts, right?
Beautiful lawn, beautiful lawn.
Dead lawn, beautiful lawn, beautiful lawn.
There they are.
They're there.
There's the dead lawn, right?
And it's got this like hose and this stuff in the front of the house
and I've seen other people do it.
You turn this thing on, you take the hose, you throw the water around.
You know, you water this stuff, right?
Fine, I'll water.
So my wife says, what are you doing?
I said, I'm going to go water out here.
She's like, all right, this ought to be good.
Turn on the water.
I'm out there throwing the water around.
And all of a sudden, I got these sick, my street looks like upstate New York.
It's like you don't even know you're in the city.
It's got this archway of white sycamore trees on the street.
It's just beautiful, right?
And I'm watering.
And all of a sudden, the sun is coming through the trees and it's hitting the plants, you know,
and the water's kind of sparkling, you know, on the plants.
And I'm kind of thinking, well, this is kind of cool.
And then I have this thought, if I'm not mistaken, this stuff is alive.
These plants.
And if I vaguely recall college, these plants are breathing in carbon dioxide.
And breathing out oxygen.
I, on the other hand, am standing right here, breathing in the oxygen and out the carbon dioxide.
We got a little thing going on here.
I'm catching a little buzz now.
It's like, all right, here's a little more for you, my brothers.
Here's a little more for you, my sisters.
I'm getting into this.
My wife comes down and goes, what are you doing?
I'm catching a buzz with my friends, honey.
Look at all these guys.
Look at all these guys out here.
We're having a ball.
She knew this was going to happen.
She just, you know, she just goes, well, you got some more friends in the back when you're done out here.
Go, if we get back.
I'm like, yeah!
I'm in the back.
But I'm out there in the front watering the lawn.
Guy drives by, sees man on lawn watering plants.
Not what is happening.
What is happening is there's an alcoholic out on the front lawn hanging out with a few of his friends and catching a little buzz.
Here's the thing.
Either way.
Today, I got to go water the lawn.
Right?
If I want to have a nice lawn and nice plants, I got to water the nice lawn and the nice plants.
So I can choose.
Do I have to water the plants or do I get to?
My choice.
Can I catch a little buzz out here and do the amazing thing, marvel in the ordinary?
Marvel in the ordinary.
Can you imagine how free we're getting now?
What kind of buzz is available to us now?
If we're marveling in the ordinary?
I mean, I used to have to hear a bullet go by to think I had an interesting evening.
You know?
Because I was so dead inside, I couldn't do anything else.
That's why Scott, you know, tried to get to the moon in his plane.
You know what I mean?
Desperate need of catching a little buzz here.
You know what I mean?
Right?
I mean, this is what we're doing, you know?
In here, I can feel again.
You get cracked open by guys like Donald Madden, guys like Cherry, you know?
The guys that we all look to that are around here that help crack us open
and allow us to come in and be a part of something bigger and beyond ourselves, right?
And to be able to marvel in the ordinary is a tremendous thing in life.
To now know that I can catch an amazing buzz talking to a guy with 53 days
or I can see a face of a guy that looks vaguely familiar.
We talk and something.
I can see the smile on this guy's face over here and his last name's Hightower.
And I think, got to be related.
Two stocky guys named Hightower, drunks.
We're related.
Got to be a connection.
Having a good time, right?
Doesn't take a lot.
And this is the thing.
There are no ruts in my life.
None.
None.
Because I'm catching a buzz on a daily basis, man.
It's wherever and whenever.
It's wherever I want.
You use the meditation in Step 11.
You can close your eyes, breathe in, breathe out,
and come out of that looking out of your skull from a different angle.
Right like that.
Catch a buzz.
Be open and available to so much that's going on in life.
That's a remarkable thing for people that were dying one day at a time
to have access to something like that.
I don't have any ruts and I'm never bored.
And I'll tell you why I'm never bored.
I'm not boring.
If you're walking around saying, I'm bored.
I'm bored.
Careful.
Somebody's liable to point out the obvious there.
If you're bored, it's because you're boring.
You can't blame it on anybody else.
If you're sitting around going, I am bored.
Expecting somebody to jump up and go, well, we got to do something about that.
Fred is bored.
Let's get a band in here.
Let's do something.
Let's take him somewhere.
That's on Fred.
If you're bored, get up.
Go out there.
Talk to somebody.
Engage in something.
Find something that you're interested in.
Pull yourself out of the boredom.
How do you build a solid home group?
Get a coffee pot and a big book.
Sit down and do what's suggested in the big book.
That's how you build a home group.
Call a central office.
Say, I want to build a solid home group.
Any suggestions?
They'll send you a packet.
Do what it says.
See, that's the cool thing.
It's like we're not looking for some new, wacky, great angle to suddenly make it interesting again.
Where you want to find the solid home group, where you want to catch the buzz,
where you want to experience the freedom is right down.
The middle.
Chop the wood and carry the water.
Go to meetings.
Get a sponsor.
Work the steps, as outlined in the big book,
and then freely give away what has been freely given to you.
If you stay in the...
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been hearing nothing but that.
Have you got anything else?
Nope.
Don't need anything else.
Anything else would confuse the issue.
You do that and a life will come up around it.
We fully expect you to manifest this however you deem appropriate.
You got a criminal defense attorney here.
He manifests in that realm.
There's a doctor in here, right?
There's pilots and there's...
I'm sure there's probably a gardener or a painter in here.
There may be an accountant or a songwriter or a poet or a director or whatever.
Manifest this your way.
But this is the foundation upon which we stand free men.
That's what we're building.
We're building the foundation.
We ain't picking...
We're not picking out the drapes.
We're building the foundation.
Some of us as alcoholic go to church.
We should not quote the Bible.
Please tell us why.
I don't go to church,
so I don't know if I'm the guy to answer that, but I will.
I don't know.
I will say...
I'm all for going to church.
All for it.
Just like the book says.
A lot of people get a lot out of church.
And we shouldn't be so elitist in our stand that we think we got something better than they got.
We got this and they got that.
What I do know about Alcoholics Anonymous is whatever your faith is, bring it.
You have a profound faith, bring it here.
There will be no conflict.
There's no dogma here.
Bring whatever you got and bring it on in.
It'll fit just fine.
And absolutely, you should quote the Bible whenever you like.
As long as it's not here.
I'm not saying don't quote the Bible.
I'm walking in my room, you can say,
you know Earl, it says in the Bible,
absolutely fair game.
Absolutely fair game.
And I might be very interested in what you have to say.
Usually, yeah.
We just do this here.
We just do this here.
And you bring your faith.
I mean, I have a certain faith that goes possibly beyond what's in Alcoholics Anonymous.
Maybe, maybe not.
And when I'm in Alcoholics Anonymous, that washes over who I am and what my faith is.
It washes into that.
And that's beautiful for me.
I do not have to convince you to do it my way.
I had a guy in a meeting one time say to me, essentially,
essentially,
Hi Earl, I'm a Lutheran.
And I said,
How nice for you.
And he said,
You know,
you're not Lutheran, are you Earl?
And I said,
No.
And he said,
You know you're going to go to hell?
And I said,
That's about as far as this conversation is going right there.
We're going to cut that off.
And I got nothing against Lutherans.
I don't.
Not a thing.
But I don't do that in here.
That's me.
I don't do it in here.
Want to talk about it out there?
Great.
Want to talk about antidepressants out there?
Great.
You want to talk about,
Republicans and Democrats out there?
Great.
You want to talk about George Bush out there?
Let's have at it.
Not in here.
Why or how does the disease progress in us,
even after sometimes,
some long periods of sobriety?
Really a question of science.
A medical question about certain things that happen in the brain
that I'm not really going to address
because I'm not a professional in that field.
What I can say this is,
it is true.
Didn't understand it at all when I was new.
And they said,
It's a progressive illness, Earl.
And if you stop drinking for 25 years
and you start drinking again,
it'll be as if you never stopped.
My immediate and heartfelt reaction to that was,
That is crap.
That made no sense to me whatsoever.
And then I stuck around.
And I saw it happen to man after woman
after man after woman
after man after woman.
And I'd ask him,
You know,
Bob went out.
Where'd he go?
That was me in the beginning.
Where'd he go?
He's drinking.
What do you mean he's drinking?
He was in a meeting with us last week.
Well, yeah, well, he's drinking this week.
I'm thinking,
I didn't even know you could do that.
What are you telling me that for?
I think we should shoot Bob.
Because Bob is scaring the crap out of me.
No, Earl, we're not going to shoot him.
But when he comes back,
we should talk to him
because he's out there scouting the now
and we should see how it's going.
All right.
So we waited a couple of weeks
and Bob came back.
He's back.
We ought to get over.
So we go to Bob and we say,
Bob, you were drinking?
He goes, yeah, Earl, I was drinking.
Well, apparently,
we want to know how that went.
Oh, Earl, it was nuts.
It was like falling off a cliff.
I said, did you have any fun at all?
He says, about 20 minutes.
How long were you out?
Three weeks.
Those aren't good numbers, Bob.
Even I know that.
And I said, was it like you never stopped, Bob?
He said, yeah, and then worse.
I mean, alcoholic after alcoholic after.
Just if you don't believe me, stick around.
And when they go out and come back,
go ask the guys that are doing it.
What's their experience?
What I hear the great majority of the time is
it is progressive.
It is progressive.
As the book says,
it gets worse.
Never better.
No one has ever come back to me and said,
Earl, I went out for the weekend,
and it was fabulous.
I'm resting up and going out again next weekend.
You're welcome to join me.
Nobody has ever said that.
And I can't tell you how happy I am that they haven't.
What is the biggest change in the way you see AA today
as opposed to when you came in?
It's an opinion.
Unlike the rest of this.
What do I see as some of the big changes in AA?
Well, I think that some of the changes in AA that I've seen
have to do with outside influences that have had an effect on AA.
I think there's been a tremendous amount of public education
as regards alcoholism and drug addiction
in the United States, in the world,
primarily in the United States.
And I think that there's been a raising of the bar, if you will,
in terms of a slow but persistent reduction
in the stigma of alcoholism and drug addiction
in the community.
As a result,
I think a lot of people get to AA
much earlier in the year.
In the continuum of their alcoholism.
You know what I'm saying?
That I think that a lot more people get here
who are not low-bottom alcoholics of the hopeless variety.
We get a lot of people in AA
are willing to come to AA
because there's no real stigma attached to it anymore.
I mean, there's much less of a stigma attached to it.
Are willing to come to AA
having gotten a DUI
or having gotten a little bit of a scare
or, you know,
you know,
you know,
the woman who's recognized,
oh my God,
I was under the influence
driving my kids to school
and that's it
and I'm going to AA.
Whereas,
I don't think as much of that
higher-bottom entry into AA.
And don't get me wrong,
I'm not one of these guys
that thinks
the lower-bottom alcoholic
is in some way, shape, or form
a better alcoholic
than the high-bottom guy.
If you think about it,
the guy who comes in here
having created much less wreckage
clearly is the smarter of the two.
Clearly is the guy
who got the wake-up call,
had the consciousness available
to wrap his head around
the need for change
far earlier than the other guy.
Good for him.
No, you know,
I'm not a guy who figures,
ah, you didn't suffer enough.
Get your ass back out there
and bleed.
I'm not one of those guys, man.
If you're here,
wow, that's amazing.
You think you got alcoholism?
You came here?
Unbelievable.
Glad you made it.
I don't care if you drop,
you know,
you know,
had a little sharing of tea,
dropped the cup by the pool,
broke the cup,
and come screaming into AA.
Fine.
Take a seat.
It's not for me to judge
what got you here.
I'm the one that's supposed
to be thrilled you did.
That's all.
Right?
So I think that we have gotten
over the last 10, 15, 20 years,
we've gotten,
AA has really swelled
in its numbers.
And it's my sense of things,
just my sense of things,
that AA is shrinking a little bit.
And rightly so.
Because what you gotta do
to stay sober
if you're an alcoholic
is simple,
but it ain't easy.
And if the beast waiting for you
ain't there,
that's a big, bad, hairy,
mean, mean creature,
it's a little easier
to slide on back out.
You know?
I mean, you know,
it didn't really get that.
You know, it's much,
I mean, those of us
that have seen, you know,
complete mayhem in our lives
are prone to saying,
you know, I think I've overreacted
coming to AA right away.
Can you imagine the guy
who really hasn't suffered
any real consequences
of a substantial nature
who's come in?
How much easier it is
for that guy to go out there
and try it some more?
And I also think
that AA on a profound level
has begun to go underground again.
I see this incredible surge
of meetings in people's homes.
Six, eight, ten, twelve people
getting around the fireplace
and going over the big book together.
I see so many people
and so much of that
taking place.
Not in the meeting directories.
It's not,
it's going underground again.
There's a tremendous
underground AA
that's growing and building.
I also think that
the IKIPA organizations,
the young people in AA,
is a remarkable organization
doing remarkable work.
And I think that they,
as much as anyone,
are responsible right now
for some of the more
positive numbers in AA.
Those are my,
my thoughts on how
I've seen it change.
I've also seen the average age
in AA plummet
over the last 25 years.
When I got sober,
I was 28 years old
and I was the baby in the room.
Average age at Ohio Street
was probably 48, 50 years old.
Now I go to Ohio Street
and I'm 53 years old
and I am the old man in the room.
You know what I mean?
They're skateboarding in.
You know?
You know?
And I feel myself reacting
like an old man.
You know what I mean?
When guys,
when guys come skating
and come up,
you know,
and they look at me
and they go,
what's up, dude?
And I'm like,
dude?
Who you calling dude,
you little?
Oops, sorry.
My name's Earl.
How you doing?
How's it going?
What is the hardest thing
you ever had to do in sobriety?
Bury my sponsor.
I've been divorced.
I've had,
I mean,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
a lot of,
You know who you are.
You're an idiot.
I'm not reading that one.
It's got nothing to do with this.
Nothing.
More?
Done?
What do you want to know?
Some of these?
Clean up Don's mess?
You had mentioned,
you had mentioned
the 12 columns
and the four steps.
Oh,
me and Howard Pollins.
Well,
this is,
this is fun.
We got,
there's a guy in AA.
A lot of you,
do you know Howard P.?
Yeah.
Right?
Great guy.
Great message.
How long is he sober now?
35,
something like that.
Great guy.
Kind,
gentle,
funny.
He's a scientist,
right?
Howard P.,
Howard Pollins.
Lives in Arizona.
Great guy.
Howard,
somewhere in the last few years
decided
that there,
first I'll tell you what I believe.
I believe in the big book.
As Don discussed,
there are three separate inventories
of four columns each.
There is the resentment inventory.
First column,
who do I resent?
Book tells you what categories go in there.
Second column,
why do I resent them?
Third column,
what areas of my life
are affected by this resentment?
Seven things to choose from.
Right?
Fourth column,
what's my part in it?
Four suggested things to look at.
Right?
Right there.
And there's resentment.
Fear,
essentially the same.
What am I afraid of?
Why am I afraid of it?
What areas are affected?
The whole thing, right?
Sexual inventory,
four columns.
Very different.
It's not who have I slept with,
who have I harmed sexually.
It's a very different category
than we might think.
I fill that out.
Four columns.
I've got three columns,
three inventories of four columns each,
12 columns.
Howard, in the last few years,
and Howard was one of the first guys
I ever heard up at the podium
when I was brand new
talking about that.
At some point,
Howard decided that this isn't correct.
And based on his deeper consideration
of what is going on in the big book,
that there are not three inventories
of four columns each.
There are four inventories
of three columns each.
Ooh.
Big controversy, right?
And so me and a couple of my friends,
me and this other guy, Steve,
we're 25,
we're both 25 years sober.
We thought,
well, we've got to mix it up with Howard.
We've got to find out
what the hell he's talking about.
So we're coming up and going,
Howard, what the hell are you talking about?
We just decided
we're going to have fun with it, right?
So we're acting like
we're all up in arms about this.
But it didn't work
because he knows us.
He knows we're just screwing around.
Trying to create controversy in AA.
Jesus.
And he said, yes,
there's resentment inventory,
the fear inventory,
as we've previously known.
The sexual inventory, certainly,
should remain on the table.
But we are adding an inventory
on selfishness and self-centeredness.
That, we think,
is the root of our troubles,
which is in the book.
Hell of a good point, right?
And he feels that the fourth column,
when addressed in selfishness
and self-centeredness,
addresses what our part,
in fact,
is in this,
as a result of this selfishness
and self-centeredness.
That that column,
that fourth column
of the three inventories,
is moved into, essentially,
a fourth inventory
on selfishness and self-centeredness,
and therein lies the deal, right?
So, either way you look at it,
you got 12 columns, right?
And what we're doing here
is splitting hairs.
I'm a traditionalist.
Howard is launching off
into this new thing.
And we ended up
in a conference together.
And I would say to him,
and whoever Howard would walk by,
he'd kind of give me a little look, right?
And I'd go,
three inventories, hot shot.
I don't care how long you're sober, big boy.
And every time he'd walk by
and he'd look at me,
as he's walking to the podium,
he'd look over his shoulder at me
and he'd go,
and he'd walk to the podium, right?
Shut up, you little pipsqueak.
There's four.
Back and forth and back and forth.
This is the big controversy.
This is two guys in AA
going back and forth
and back and forth
about proper way to do the fourth step.
What controversy.
The great debate, right?
A couple of alcoholics deciding
on how we're going to get free, right?
It's a great,
debate.
I'm learning things.
Arguing with Howard.
I think Howard's having a lot of fun with this.
It's all it is.
I think that's the big whoop about Howard.
And I love him to death.
He's a great man
and I love the way his brain works.
So it's all in good fun.
More?
I met a lot of guys
who have been in AA a long time
and are never happy.
I'm very grateful for AA.
Thanks.
Me too.
I couldn't agree with this guy more.
And you know what?
You'd have to ask them
why they're so unhappy.
I don't know.
I don't know that everybody's goal in life
is to be happy.
Some people don't seem to.
It's not big on their list.
Different strokes for different folks.
What do we got here?
How do you respond to a sponsee
who is or believes himself
to be a confirmed atheist?
He attends daily meetings,
is sober for a year,
but will not participate in the steps
due to their focus on a God
he does not believe in.
Thanks.
Great question.
Ripe for controversy.
I will not shy away.
First off,
a sponsee who believes
himself to be a confirmed atheist.
If somebody says to me,
I'm an atheist,
I say,
okay.
I'm not.
Now let's open the book
and work the steps.
I can't do that.
There's God everywhere.
No, we can do the steps.
And I tell them about
the great, wonderful,
late Gloria Scott
who died 23 years sober
three years ago.
Gloria Scott,
was a
just
an insanely committed
atheist.
She said,
if there's a higher power,
it's Neil Young.
That was her.
And when she died,
she stayed sober for 23 years,
never would say the Lord's Prayer
at the meetings.
She'd hold hands with us
because she loved us.
She'd hold hands with us.
She wouldn't say the Lord's Prayer.
Nobody took offense to it.
Donald,
she was sponsored by Donald.
She saw what I had with Donald
and she said,
I want what they have.
And she came and she said to Donald,
you don't know who I am,
but I want you to sponsor me.
He said,
oh, I know who you are.
Sit down.
And she said,
that's my guy right there.
I love that.
And he sponsored her
for probably 10 years
and she and I became very close.
Gloria never drove a car.
And we had guys
who would go and pick her up
and take her back
to and from work
and this and that.
And she became like
our sobriety sister.
And Donald always said,
one day we're going to get you
to say the Lord's Prayer.
Just say it with us.
We know you won't mean it.
We know you don't believe in it,
but you'll say it with us anyway
just so you don't have
to separate yourself out
and you can just go ahead
and be a part of.
Right?
And when Donald died,
Gloria came to Donald's memorial
and she held hands with us
and said the Lord's Prayer
at Donald's memorial service.
That's the only time
she ever said it.
She said it for him.
And when she died,
there was a memorial service for her.
And we were all there
and there was a guy that got up
and said,
I know Gloria was an atheist,
but I also know that her,
if ever there was a life
that was a beautiful example
of love and service to others,
which I can't think of
a better definition
of a spiritual life,
it was glorious.
Glorious function in life
was love and service to others.
Our code of love and tolerance
was very important to her.
And Gloria was instrumental
in sponsoring and helping
a great number of women.
I mean, and the range of women
that she dealt with
was remarkable.
Gang bangers to bankers.
You know what I mean?
Who flocked to Gloria
and her love of AA.
But she was an atheist.
I used to,
when I got here,
I was telling Donald
that I was an atheist
and I would go on about
God this and God that.
Rah, rah, rah, rah, rah.
And one day,
at one point,
Donald looked at me
and he said,
Earl, you can't be mad
at a God you don't believe in.
Yeah.
And he loved doing that to me,
by the way.
I just looked at him
and went,
I gotta go home.
What is that?
How do you do that?
And I realized
that I did have
a relationship with God.
It was just a bad one
based on my bad attitude,
my judgment,
my lack of clarity.
But if you got a sponsor
who's an atheist,
my thing is, okay,
he says he's been sober for a year
but he will not participate
in the steps,
I would suggest to him
that you don't need to
necessarily believe in God
to begin to wrestle
with the steps
as outlined in the big book
of Alcoholics Anonymous.
And I would say,
make a beginning.
Your atheism is documented.
Now let's wrestle with this.
And see if he's willing
to do that.
If he's not,
I would suggest
that there is a contempt
prior to investigation.
In the back of the book,
Herbert Spencer says,
the only thing
that will keep him
in an everlasting ignorance
is contempt
prior to investigation.
I'd just chip away at him.
That's what I'd do.
It can't feel good, man.
It cannot feel good.
Shaking your fist.
I'm sober.
I'm in A,
but I'm not working the steps.