Lee H. on Rigorous Step Work, Early Service, and the Pink Cloud

Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., sober since January 1st, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful that you've joined us.
You know, sponsorship is one of the essentials in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous.
In the 22 interviews I've done thus far, it's been mentioned many times.
In the case of today's guest, Lee H., the role his sponsor has played throughout Lee's sobriety
is especially illuminating in a way I wish every AA newcomer could see.
From the time they first met and throughout the careful working of the 12 Steps
to the point when Lee started sponsoring others,
the importance of having a sponsor and being a sponsor has been brilliantly demonstrated by both men.
Of particular note is the gift of time and attention
that his sponsor unselfishly gave Lee,
even in the midst of building his business and raising his children.
Hearing Lee describe it, it's clear that both he and his sponsor
not only embraced the concept of working with others,
but found the vital activity of sponsorship itself highly enriching to them and the lives of others.
What's more, it's evident that Lee has applied this same dedication to the rest of his program and his life.
With over eight years of sobriety,
and still under age 30,
Lee's captivating story provides lots of hope for younger AAs
and a meaningful reminder of the basic tenets of the program that are so necessary to staying sober.
To me, keep it simple is a mantra which could easily be applied to Lee's daily program.
As you listen to this AA Recoveries interview podcast,
I think you'll agree and find the next hour most enjoyable.
So, welcome to my AA brother and friend,
Lee H.
My name is Lee. I'm an alcoholic.
Hi, Lee. I appreciate you doing this today.
I appreciate you asking.
One of the challenges of doing this podcast so far has been getting younger people,
especially people with single and sometimes double-digit sobriety,
to share about their experiences.
We've had a number of people on here who have been in their 70s and 80s,
and I thought I'd look at the other end of the spectrum,
and that was one of the reasons that I thought it'd be a good idea to have you on.
Plus, I've heard parts of your story before in meetings,
and I'm quite captivated.
First of all, how long have you been sober now?
I've been sober for a little bit over eight years.
My sobriety date is January 7th, 2013.
Did you ever try getting sober before that date?
Was it the first time that you tried to get sober?
Well, I think it depends on what you mean by trying to get sober.
Yeah, yeah.
There was times where I would pick up a desire chip,
but it was only for a certain drug,
or I would go and detox at my parents' house
and do a first-aid, and then I would go to the doctor's office,
and I would go to the doctor's office,
and I would go to the doctor's office,
and I would go to the doctor's office,
and I would go to the doctor's office,
and I would go to the doctor's office,
to never drink again and then be back at it a week later.
But this is the first time I've ever had time in recovery in AA.
Yeah, and eight years is a lot.
Yeah.
Is it safe to say you're in your early 30s or late 20s?
Late 20s.
I'll be 30 in May.
Oh, cool.
Congratulations on that.
Yeah.
I'm so glad to hear about eight years of sobriety.
That means that the better part of your 20s
has been spent around a program of principles,
of love,
and care,
and positive regard,
and acceptance.
Overall, how would you say AA has treated you over the last eight years?
I think AA has treated me, I mean, tremendously well over the last eight years.
I got sober when I was 21
and had really struggled with a variety of pretty hard drugs.
Really?
And was determined that, you know, I was going to drink.
I had turned 21.
You know, this is what normal people do.
They drink alcohol.
And so I'm going to put all that other stuff aside
and watch me control and enjoy my drinking
and was unable to do so.
Found myself couch surfing and stealing food, unemployed, all sorts of stuff.
So for me to be sitting here in a house that I own,
you know, with stability and relaxing on a Sunday afternoon
is quite contrary to...
What I would be doing if it wasn't for AA.
Wow, that's pretty amazing.
Now, you mentioned just now that at 21,
you wanted to do what normal people did,
but yet you had already been engaging in drugs before you hit 21.
When did that start in your life?
That started when I was about 13.
You did that until you were 21 and started drinking,
or did you start drinking before that?
I started drinking before that.
I actually started drinking when I was 13,
and that was the...
Mm-hmm.
I think when Bill talks,
about in his story when he first started drinking in the military
and he says, I had arrived.
Yeah.
That was my experience.
Was it?
Yeah.
I don't think it makes me an alcoholic,
but I was incredibly self-conscious as a child
and really desperate to be cool.
And so when I was at my buddy's house for the first time
and his older brother was having a party
and I got handed Milwaukee's Best Light.
Oh, that's good stuff.
And chugged it in the driveway.
Oh, man.
Yeah.
I had arrived.
What was your body's response to that?
I proceeded to get blacked out that night.
Really?
Wow.
Yeah.
And I'm not sure if that's the allergy
or if that's just adolescent foolishness,
but from the beginning,
my drinking was really characterized by intense intoxication.
Wow.
I've really never been the person that would get a buzz
and be like, oh,
I'm good now.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What is there about that buzz that we have to feel like
we got to keep drinking or doing more drugs to keep it at that?
It always pushed me over the edge every time,
no matter what.
I could never get back to that first buzz.
It was after the first time, man, it was always elusive.
Did you find that in your usage over the years?
Yeah.
I found that I just always seemed to go over the mark.
When I was younger,
I had this big pride in drinking.
And being like a very safe drug user, really.
And to answer your question from earlier,
I think that alcohol really is like my primary issue, I would say.
But growing up in the suburbs,
it was a lot more challenging to get alcohol than it was to get drugs.
Yeah.
You know, it's like a liquid you have to carry around.
You smell.
When you get drunk, you stumble.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So I found myself smoking weed
and taking pills.
And those were, you know,
something you could buy at school, put in your pocket.
It was a lot easier to get away with.
So it was really lots of drug use until I went off to college.
Yeah, I get that.
Well, drugs to me always seemed to kind of sharpen me up.
It was almost like alcohol kind of slowed me down
and slurred out my speech and made me a little bit sloppy.
But when I was smoking grass or doing uppers or even downers or whatever else,
it always seemed like I was operating pretty normally,
even though I was still operating with a buzz.
So, and, you know, you're the second guest in the last several episodes
who said something about the ease of getting drugs
being more so than getting the alcohol.
That's interesting.
Did either of your parents drink?
Nope.
I don't think I've ever seen my mom have a drink.
I think I've seen my dad have one beer in his entire life.
Oh, wow.
That's wild.
So, yeah.
Do you know of any alcoholism or addictions in the extended family
like grandparents or in other generations?
Mm-hmm.
So, I had a uncle who died of alcoholism in the past two years.
Yep.
He was in his 60s and living alone and very poor health.
I have a cousin who really struggled with crystal meth for years and years.
I had a great uncle who died from alcoholism.
Mm-hmm.
So, but it's more so sprinkled amongst the family as opposed to,
because I have friends who, you know,
all of their siblings and immediate family members
really struggle with alcoholism or drug addiction,
but that wasn't my experience.
How about your siblings?
How many siblings have you got?
I have one sister and she is not an alcoholic.
That's cool.
So, you mentioned that this uncle died a few years ago in his 60s
from alcoholism.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Now, did the rest of the family and the people around him
acknowledge that that's what he died of,
or was that just something that you happened to know
because of being in the program and having seen people die from alcoholism?
So, I have a pretty open relationship with my dad,
and he knew for sure.
There was apparently, like, corks from wine bottles
strewn throughout the house.
Mm-hmm.
But it wasn't, like, publicly acknowledged
or even really discussed amongst the family.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because oftentimes, cause of death on death certificates,
you generally never see alcoholism.
You always see liver disease or kidney failure or, you know,
some other cause that if you didn't know the person was a heavy drinker
or an alcoholic, just by looking at the paper, you might never know.
That's why I always like to find out.
I don't think it was listed on the death certificate,
but I do know that he had health problems that were really
exacerbated or created by alcoholism
and also didn't take care of them in large part
due to his alcoholism, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it does.
It does.
So, did you ever make an attempt to approach him about his alcoholism
or was that something that was kind of off-limits?
I wouldn't say it was off-limits.
My dad would talk to him about it at times.
I never had a specific conversation with him about it.
He was essentially a recluse.
Oh, yeah.
So, he was incredibly defensive and withdrawn.
That is a good question.
I've done plenty of 12-step calls,
but usually I'm really hesitant to want to, like, initiate conversations with people.
I wait until it's, you know, asked of me or how did you do this,
something like that.
I think it's incredibly sad whenever there's somebody with recovery
so close in the family.
But that the individual with the disease, the active disease,
doesn't see it or won't acknowledge it.
Or in the case of some people in my family,
we're flat out denying of it whenever I would confront them with it.
So, I mean, you can only do what you can do
and you wait for the attraction to kick in
because promotion usually doesn't get us anywhere, does it?
So, whenever it was that you first started at 13,
you said you were doing it to kind of fit in with the crowd.
Did you run with a particular crowd of guys in junior high and high school?
Yeah, so I actually ran with two groups of people.
One group of friends I had was skateboarding and doing drugs
and generally being bad.
But I also had my group of friends that I was with
in the quote-unquote advanced classes or pre-AP classes or whatever.
And so I would constantly cheat a lot in school.
Uh-huh.
And I would kind of align myself with my friends who were doing well.
And then when I would get in trouble or when I would feel bad,
I would compare myself to my other friends
who were, you know, the more unsavory characters.
Like, don't, you can't get mad at me.
You know, Greg is overdosing on Xanax at school, you know.
So you had both ends covered, didn't you?
Yeah.
So if you were hanging out with a good friend,
good guys, and you weren't doing real well,
by perspective, you were doing way better than the other group.
And if you were hanging out with those guys
and doing better than they were doing,
you were closer to the other group.
That's a pretty interesting balance to try and maintain.
How did that work out for you?
It worked out well.
I mean, it was pretty fun in high school, I think I would still say.
There was periods of time where I would have these kind of lucid moments
where I wanted to really slow down.
Or take breaks.
And I found that I wasn't able to.
But I also had lots of rules about my drug use
that I wouldn't take a certain drug multiple days in a row
because I found that's how people were getting physically addicted
to prescription drugs.
And I wouldn't mix alcohol and pills.
So I had all these rules that I ended up breaking down the line.
But I remember being very proud and kind of arrogant.
Is that because you were so smart
or because you were so scared of the consequences of overdosing
or things not working out?
It's because I thought I was so smart.
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Yeah, that's how I was too.
And I don't know about you, but whenever I quit,
I always knew I was going to start again.
I mean, did you ever feel that way when you stopped
and you figured, well, I'll stop and things will get back to normal,
then I can drink again or then I can use drugs again?
Oh, yeah.
I remember one time after I'd gotten arrested
for weed in 2013, or excuse me, 2009 was when I got arrested,
that I was partying with my friends and smoking
and this was going to be my big hurrah,
my last time for six months or something.
And I can remember halfway through that,
it just dawning on me that I was like,
this is not my last time.
So you got arrested.
How old were you when you got arrested?
18 years old.
18.
So what were the circumstances?
Because lots of people, you know, use drugs for years and never get arrested.
Some people, the first time they use it, they get arrested.
How did that, what was the consequence like for you?
So I was in the dorms at college and I had been selling weed
and somebody else was too.
His name was Leland, interestingly enough.
Interesting.
And so the cops were looking for Leland and somebody,
they said, you know, where's Leland?
And I was walking back from class and somebody pointed to me and like,
oh, there's Lee.
Oh, no.
And Leland isn't your name, is it?
No, it's not.
You spelled your name L-E-E, right?
Yeah, L-E-E.
No land in that Lee, huh?
Wow.
So what happened?
Did they arrest you on the spot or?
So they came up to my dorm and I actually ended up convincing,
them that I was going to be like an informant and work for them
because I had a single Adderall and a single Xanax pill in my wallet.
Wow.
And I knew that if I knew that if they took me into jail,
that I would, they would find it when, when they were doing the intake.
And that would have been a lot more serious charge than weed possession.
Wow.
So did they give you that choice on the front end or was that when you were
brought up in court and offered that, or, or was this something?
That the police allowed you to do?
This was me being very intoxicated and crying and trying to negotiate this.
Yeah.
And so they agreed to do that.
And then I called my dad and ended up getting a lawyer and I never
spoke to the cops again after that.
The lawyer said that, you know, this is not going to happen.
Sounds like a pretty close call for you.
Huh?
Had a lot of those.
Yeah.
Was that the first and last time you were arrested?
That was the first and last time.
I definitely like to keep it in mind that I'm not like living in fear, but I
do have a healthy respect for the disease and I've known, I've known people that
have had long-term sobriety gone back out and incurred some really serious
consequences.
And so that is hopefully my last time.
Yeah.
Getting arrested.
But I also know that I'm not immune.
Yeah.
Why do you think that is that, that when people slip, they go out and
things get so much worse so quickly?
I'm not sure.
I think that, I mean, a component of it is the disease.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
The, the allergy, the obsession.
Yeah.
But I think that there's also sometimes what I imagine is a tremendous amount of
shame and people feel alienated from the life.
The life that they had beforehand.
And so it's kind of like a, maybe a traumatic response that people start using
really, or drinking extremely heavily.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess I've seen that over the years too.
People, not only do you get drunk, but you also have thrown away whatever you
had previously, whether it's sobriety, whether it's a job or a relationship or
whatever.
So my guess is it probably does compound, but you haven't had to go out over the
eight years that you've been.
Sober.
So you've, you've, you caught that message correctly, I guess, early on.
You mentioned, uh, college a few minutes ago.
Uh, so, so you went from high school on to college.
Did you go through all four years?
I went through all six years, six years.
So am I thinking advanced degree or just a slow on the uptake?
What, which one?
Slow, slow on the uptake.
I ended up getting an advanced degree in recovery, but.
Did you?
Wow.
Yeah.
But when I was drinking, there was lots of taking semesters off to quote unquote
work, which I did, but it was really just kind of what, what Dr.
Bob talks about that cycle of having enough stuff to get loaded so that I could
work so that I could make money to get loaded.
So you got sober at 21, which meant that what, two or three years of your college
experience was pre sobriety.
When you finally got sober, is that what kind of led you to the decision to major in or
go towards an advanced degree in recovery and the recovery field?
Uh, I think so.
Even, even before getting sober, I was intending on being a psychology major, oddly enough,
because I had a therapist since I was like a kid and I just saw, I just saw his job as being
like really relaxing and kind of like cush.
It was just like, you get to sit there in an office and chat.
Yeah.
I've learned a lot more than that, but yeah, but I think I was really desperately trying
to figure out what was wrong with me.
I see.
Yeah.
Were you in therapy when you got sober or before you got sober?
I wasn't before I got sober.
My therapist, uh, fired me because he said until you, until you get sober, you're going to get sober.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're like, we can't do anything really productive in therapy.
Really?
Wow.
It was just me being resentful and projecting onto other people and my parents, blah, blah, blah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.
I get it.
I get it.
I had a therapist who was a psychologist many, many years ago.
And at the time I was still drinking, this is before I got sober.
And so many of the problems I brought to him on a weekly basis were wrapped around my drinking
and smoking dope all the time.
And you know what?
He, he never, and all the time I went to see him, he never confronted me on it.
He never asked probing questions about my alcohol or drug use.
At the end of each session, he'd say, keep coming back.
This is working.
And bring your checkbook.
So lead me up to what happened when you finally got sober.
What was life like leading up to that point?
And what was, what would you consider your, your moment of clarity?
Or your turning point in your alcoholism to finally get to AA?
The first time I ever got a desire chip, I was probably 20 or 19.
I was really addicted to opioids and had a friend who had gotten sober in AA.
And I was really happy for him, but that's because he was an IV drug user.
It didn't apply to me.
So I bounced around between a lot of different drugs.
I was smoking that fake weed.
K2.
Oh yeah.
Uh, was terrible.
That's nasty.
Yeah.
I was on, uh, bath salts really heavily.
And that led to me going to rehab for the first time.
Um, I actually had like a spiritual experience when doing bath salts.
Um, it was this music video I was watching at the end.
And there was like a sermon, um, cause the, the artist was like dying or whatever in the
video.
And it was some sermon where they're talking about that if you die before the treasure
inside of you is released to the world, the world won't be as bright as it should be.
And I was pretty suicidal and really out of my mind, psychotic at that point, but watched
it a bunch of times.
It was crying.
And that led to me going to treatment for the first time.
Wow.
You know, I've never heard a music video having that kind of power.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
To get somebody into treatment.
That's wild.
Was that a decision that you came to on your own or was that recommended to you after you
told people of your experience with the video?
I told my parents about my, uh, my bath salt use.
They knew that I had, I'd been doing them and I'd already moved home, but, uh, they
didn't know I had started using them again.
Yeah.
That led to me going to rehab for the first time.
Mm-hmm.
As I said earlier, I really wanted to quit doing these harder drugs.
Sure.
But I was 21 now.
And so I'm just going to drink and smoke weed and that'll be the normal, the thing
that normal people do.
Right.
Right.
I was livid that my parents wouldn't let me drink in their house and smoke at their
house.
And this was because they were squares and blah, blah, blah.
So I left their house and went back to San Marcos to visit with friends and stay with
them and to prove to my parents and myself.
And I was like, I'm going to quit.
I was like, okay, I'm going to quit.
So I left, I stayed with my parents.
I was like, I'm going to quit.
I was going to quit.
I was going to, I was going to get a job, get an apartment and all that stuff.
Wow.
Ended up being completely unable to do so and having a little bit of knowledge about
what AA was.
Um, I would, you know, wake up and be really determined to work on a resume or something
that day and make a mental note of like, I'm not going to drink today.
Yeah.
kind of begrudgingly be going to the liquor store at about 1 PM. And over the months that
really started to wear down on any confidence that I had. So I went back to my parents' house
and unbeknownst to me, they'd been going to Al-Anon. So I was trying to finagle my way back
in there with them. They said, you have to go to rehab. I refused. And they said, all right,
then get out. And I didn't want to get out. I was scared. So I said,
they called my bluff. They called my bluff. And I was like, okay, I'll go.
Wow. Wow. What a gift that was.
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, especially the fact that they went to Al-Anon. How long have they been going to Al-Anon
at the point at which all of this happened?
So I think they'd been going to Al-Anon for probably about six months.
Really? Wow.
Yeah.
They didn't get...
They didn't get sponsors or work the program, but they did learn to establish some boundaries
with me, which was, I needed that. I was out of my mind.
So that little bit of knowledge that they got from Al-Anon really came in handy when
they faced you down with the prospect of either doing something about it or just being kicked to
the curb. Wow. And so you made a decision that not everybody makes. I mean, I've interviewed a
lot of people who took the kick to the curb instead of stopping, but it sounds like that's exactly what
you needed at that time, huh?
Yep. And interestingly enough, I had this big fantasy in my head about that if I could,
for some reason, $40,000 a year was this big thing in my mind. If I can make $40,000 a year,
I can support my drinking and have stability. And the only problem is I don't have a job.
So my going into treatment...
Right.
Treatment last time wasn't motivated by actually wanting to get sober. It was motivated by,
okay, I need to get a handle on this and take a break until I can get a college degree.
And then I'll be able to support my lifestyle.
Hmm. So that thinking led you to believe that you would someday be able to go back to the
lifestyle that involved being able to drink socially or like a gentleman.
Mm-hmm.
You went to...
You went to rehab. Was that an inpatient program you went to?
Mm-hmm.
And how long were you inpatient?
For 30 days.
30 days. And then did you do the outpatient, the SOP after for a period of time?
I did.
For how long?
What, six months?
I did outpatient for three months, and then I was in sober living for about a year and a half.
Wow. Wow.
Yeah. That was really crucial.
What was that experience like?
Sober living was...
Extremely beneficial.
First of all, what led to me like actually taking the program seriously was when I was in rehab.
Uh-huh.
I was one of the youngest people in there.
Uh-huh.
And this was my second time in treatment.
I'd been arrested once.
Mm-hmm.
And I saw all these guys in there who, during groups, you know, everyone's all gung-ho and working out a bit.
Yeah.
But when it comes time to take a break and smoke cigarettes, everyone is...
This is stupid, and here's my plan.
I got this.
Mm-hmm.
And I could just tell how delusional these men were.
Really?
Yep.
I was like, you know, Adam seems to seriously have a problem with this, and he's not just going to leave here and magically be able to muster up the willpower to turn it around.
Uh-huh. Uh-huh.
And thank God for those men, because they really held a mirror up to my face.
And...
You know, this is me, and I'm just getting started on this kind of merry-go-round.
Wow.
Mm-hmm.
In the sober living arrangement that you were in for a year and a half, was that one of those where the men watch out for each other and take care of each other?
Or was there somebody from the outside?
Were you guys involved with any people from the outside or AA groups coming in or anything like that?
So we didn't have AA groups come in, but we did have...
We were required to get a sponsor.
Uh-huh.
Work the steps.
Yeah.
For some reason, I was very enthusiastic about it.
Really?
Yeah.
So realizing the seriousness of my condition, there was guys that came to treatment that were in AA.
Yeah.
And I got a bunch of people's phone numbers, ended up picking somebody, worked the steps with them.
So you guys would get together and go to a particular AA meeting together?
Mm-hmm.
Three to four times a week.
Uh-huh.
At the beginning, it was going to lots of meetings or going to...
Going to IOP.
And we had chores and we held each other accountable.
That was a really big thing.
Mm-hmm.
For somebody that was as kind of rebellious and didn't want to listen to anybody, I think that was super important.
Yeah.
When you're supposed to make your bed, that means make your bed.
Pretty cut and dry, isn't it?
Yeah.
Pretty easy decision.
You either do it or you don't.
Which to me was profound.
And I was like, oh, this is like a cheat code for life that if you just do what you're supposed to do,
that things generally go smoother.
That aha moment when you realize that if you don't drink, you won't get drunk, right?
Mm-hmm.
Let me ask you about something I've never quite understood.
Maybe you can give me some perspective on this.
Because I didn't go to treatment myself.
I went to a family week and came back and learned enough during that week to know that I had a problem,
but didn't start in AA for about three or four months.
And I go to a number of different meetings, and especially the men's meetings.
I go to one in particular.
That gets a lot of guys that come in from halfway houses,
or they're guys who come in from sober living places into the meeting.
And they come on a regular basis.
And not only do they get known, but they actually start to do like service work.
And of course, their lives are improving slowly if they're doing the work in the halfway house.
And they keep coming.
They keep coming.
They get to be a regular at the meeting.
And I've always looked forward to seeing them.
And then they get out of the halfway house, and I don't see them anymore.
And I'm curious, from your perspective, do you know why that happens or why that may be the case
for people not coming back to a meeting that they may have been part of for a couple years?
I think a lot of that has to do with some people have reservations.
Really?
I think so.
I know I had friends that I was in sober living with that wanted to stop and wanted to get their life together.
But I don't know if they sincerely...
I don't know if they sincerely would answer yes to the question of, you know, are you done for good and for all?
And it's not a personal accomplishment or because I'm quote unquote smart or whatever that my answer was yes at that time when I was asked that.
So I think I'm just lucky in that regard.
But there's also a dynamic I see where...
Because there's other like recovery organizations and stuff like that.
But if people are more invested in that than they are...
Then whenever they leave, let's say, this sober living place or this collegiate recovery organization or what it may be, whatever it may be,
they just don't seem to make the transition into I'm an AA member and working in an AA program.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's...
I'm a person that lives in X halfway house or is part of X organization that goes to AA and is involved in AA.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
When did you first consider?
Did you consider yourself a member of AA?
I think I considered myself a member of AA whenever I got to my amends.
So it took you to your eighth and ninth step to really feel connected to AA.
That's interesting.
And you mentioned that you had to get a sponsor in the sober living house that you were at.
Did you get a sponsor right away or what was that?
What did that look like?
So I got a sponsor before I left treatment, which was another really valuable thing.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
I remember being in treatment and reading the first 63 pages and trying to find four things that wouldn't keep me sober.
But I had a list of about 20 guys and I had this huge fear that I was going to like turn into whoever I asked to sponsor me and was making like way too big of a deal out of it.
And so I shared about that at a meeting about this kind of conundrum I was having.
And then my sponsor, Toby R., at that time, shared after me and said something that, you know, wasn't exactly my experience and, you know, whatever.
But he had experience and strength and hope.
And I could tell that he had been in a really dark place with it, like I had and was hopeless, but had gotten out of it.
And after the meeting, I was looking for him and he was looking for me.
And.
I found him and he said, let's work the steps.
And I said, OK.
We'll be right back.
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The big book podcast is read by Howard L., who received no compensation for this vital service work.
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And we're back.
You mentioned earlier that you didn't feel really.
A member until you had done your eighth and ninth step.
What was it like before you did those steps going to AA meetings?
Did you feel a little disenfranchised or do you feel like an outsider?
What was the feeling?
I had like a really strong pink cloud.
You could say.
Yeah.
And so I was I was absolutely loving it.
Really?
This was, you know, on the tail end of me having gotten a fake sponsor six months prior.
He asked me to read.
The doctor's opinion.
And I didn't.
When we met up, he said, what do you think of it?
And I said, it's good.
So I was just really excited about the idea that my life could actually change and that
things were getting progressively worse in my life, mostly because of my drug and alcohol use.
Of course.
So going to meetings and hearing people share and their experiences, particularly with people
who are kind of more solution focused, that was really engaging to me.
And so I love that.
So you were on a pink cloud for how long?
I'd say about five months, six months.
That's about right. That's about right.
Yeah. What did people tell you about that?
Just that it enjoy it while it lasts because it would it would pop.
Yeah. Yeah.
I remember I remember my buddy Kevin in the
the sober living house was having like a bad day one day and he was sad.
And I was probably, you know, all of forty five days sober.
I was just like I couldn't comprehend.
I was like, Kevin, what is there possibly to be upset about?
Yeah. Yeah.
That's why he was like six months sober.
And he said, oh, just just wait. You'll see.
That's interesting.
You know, as you're talking about your
experience in the sober living or halfway house that you were in, were there men at
that facility that you felt were in it just till they could get out and didn't
really have any engagement with the A.A. program or were most of them involved?
To a reasonable extent, there was
definitely people who were just in it for other reasons.
But yeah, luckily, I went to a place that was known for being super strict.
And so people would get kicked out like very quickly.
Really? Yeah.
Just for.
Guilfulness or not following the rules or dishonesty.
And so I'm extremely lucky that I went to a place like that and not
kind of a flop house where people are drinking and doing all sorts of stuff.
Were they doing random U.A.'s or anything like that?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Sounds about right.
When you look back, because this is going back, what, eight years ago now, a little
bit more.
How many of those guys are sober today?
Do you have any idea what percentage of those guys made it and were able to stay
sober long term? Probably about five or 10 percent.
Really? That low, huh?
Wow. There's been there's been several guys that died, too.
Really? Yeah.
When you would run into those guys on the street or did you ever did you ever see
them after that while you were working your A.A. program?
And they obviously weren't.
Did you did you have any interaction with those guys?
Not just in public.
I would see them when they would come back in and out of A.A.
And there's there's been friends I've had
that, you know, are now like two or three years sober or something.
So, oh, that's cool.
We lived together.
They started drinking again.
But then after, you know, a couple of years came back in.
Well, that's always gratifying, isn't it?
When you when you see a guy who you were around early on and maybe he slipped,
maybe even a couple of times and he comes back, that's that's a pretty hopeful
feeling, isn't it?
Mm hmm. Yeah, I know it is for me.
Any time I've seen men who, including men I've sponsored, go back out.
And fortunately, I haven't had a huge number of that happen, but it's always
gratifying when they come back and sometimes they just have to start over.
Sometimes they need to do more work.
So your sponsor, he had you working the steps.
What was doing the fourth and fifth step like for you?
So I got told initially that we were going to work the steps with the
direction of a drowning man.
Yeah, the goal was the goal was going to be to work the steps quickly.
Right. And so after my third step decision,
Toby emphasized that it said next, we launched out on a course of rigorous
action. So I think he said that we were going to do the fifth step in two weeks.
So there was there was no kind of discussion about, you know, take as long as
you want. Wow. Anything like that.
It was, you know,
put the pen to paper.
Now is not the time to lollygag.
Let's get this done.
Did he actually show you how to do it or did he just point you to the book?
He showed me how to do it.
Yeah, he kind of in like a spiral notebook, like jotted out like a mock four step.
And so I wasted a bunch of time trying to
take like rulers and make like a perfect grid.
And the guy, the guy that owned the Sober Living House,
he figured that out and gave me some like printout versions and was like, you know,
cut the crap.
That's great.
I love it when guys think that they can do it with a Microsoft Excel spreadsheet or
something like that, there's something really visceral about doing it with a pencil
and paper, isn't there? Absolutely.
It feels more like spilling your guts, doesn't it?
Yeah, I had a super cathartic and healing experience writing my four step.
Really? Surprisingly enough. Yeah.
I know some
people meeting and meetings talk about it and it's really challenging and draining.
And that was not my experience.
Did you feel like you got to everything you needed to get to in that first in that
fourth step? Mm hmm.
The most important stuff was not racking my brain and trying to think of stuff that
was not coming to mind. Toby emphasized that the most important
stuff was the thing that the things that immediately come to mind that you don't
want to talk about. Uh huh.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's that's kind of a psych out right there.
You know, think of the things you don't want to talk about and put those down first.
I always tell guys whenever we're doing the fourth step, first of all, I do exactly what
your sponsor did and I sit down and show them because the book is I always was confused by that.
But one of the things that I realized early on, and it was this way for me,
was if I knew I was going to have to do a fifth step, if I knew I was going to have
to tell somebody something from the fourth step, it would subconsciously make
me forget about it or justify it as something that wasn't fourth step worthy.
And so I came up with a way to kind of psych myself out.
And my sponsor had me do this.
And I've done it with guys I've sponsored seems to work pretty well.
And that is do your fourth step as if you
were going to throw it out or shred it or burn it after you wrote it.
You know, in other words, do your fourth step as if there's no fifth step.
What would you write down if you knew that you didn't have to talk to somebody?
It can be a way of just kind of
getting to a few things that I might have been a little bit too ashamed of or
felt like it wasn't something they needed to know about me.
And it worked out, worked out pretty well.
But I'm glad to hear you talk about having
a good experience with the fourth step, because most people dread that.
How was your fifth step?
My fifth step experience, honestly, was kind of underwhelming, wasn't it?
Yeah. And so I think I just had this big expectations that Toby was going to do a
backflip.
Like, throw me a party and give me an attaboy.
Wow, that's the most brutally honest fifth step I've ever heard.
He seemed
thoroughly undisturbed.
Uh huh. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, that's that sometimes that's
part of the strategy of the guy listening to a fifth step is that if you show too
much excitement about it, it means that that other guy's ego is going to blow up.
And I've always thought it's better to just listen and say, uh huh.
Than you're kidding or whoa, how do you like, you know, I mean,
that's because that feeds right into the thing that is so dangerous for us.
That unabated ego, unabated.
Absolutely. So you went from the fifth step.
You did your sixth and seventh.
So when you got to the eighth, how did you go about doing your eighth step?
So my fourth step actually had four sections to it.
It was resentment, fear, sex, inventory, and then a separate list of.
People that I or institutions that I was not resentful against, but that I had
harmed. Yeah, because I think, like you said, in the big book, it's kind of
confusing in step eight, it says we return to our list.
We made it when we took inventory.
Yeah. But there were people that I was not
resentful of that I had harmed greatly. Sure.
And so my my eighth step was simply my resentment list.
People on my sex inventory plus the harms list.
Did you go over it?
With your sponsor before you started going out and doing the ninth steps?
Yep. He and I determined together which amends would be harmful to the other
person to make or harmful to other people to make, which ones were warranted.
Toby, Toby was a great sponsor.
I'm so grateful for all of this guidance because he asked me, you know, let's say
you steal someone's TV, how do you make amends?
Then I said, you go and sincerely apologize and explain, blah, blah.
I said, no, you give them their TV back.
Yeah. Start at the beginning.
Start start with what's most important.
Yeah. And so I was tasked with making a list and being as specific as possible.
The ways in which I had wronged them,
because if they experienced it, then they know better than I do.
So I don't just say, oh, I'm sorry for being rude.
What did you say? What did you do now on those that you had on that?
The list, let's say those may be more towards the top of the list.
Did you have any ninth step amends that
were not accepted or were treated with hostility?
I don't think so.
No, there was people who didn't respond.
You mean wouldn't call you back or just wouldn't give you the time of day?
There were some people that wouldn't.
I made like a Facebook account to find these people and I would present.
It was something that I had crafted with Toby.
It was something that I had crafted with Toby about, like, here's in a general way
what I'm wanting to do and talk to you about.
Right.
If you're willing, like, let me know and I can come to you.
And I had some people say, I'm not interested.
Or, you know, you could tell they read the message, but they didn't respond.
That's interesting.
I hadn't ever really considered the technology aspect of it until you just
said it just now about actually making a Facebook page or using some other part
of the technology to try and either find people.
Or invite them to the process of you making an amend.
Were there any amends that you had to kind of rehearse going in?
Or were there any that were really caused you a lot of trepidation and fear?
So I pretty much rehearsed all my amends going into them.
I actually had like note cards, like an index card.
And I would write on the back like what I had done specifically.
And so I would go in there kind of so that I could really
try to specifically say what I'd done.
I remember being scared when I was making amends to businesses that I've stolen.
Yeah, that was that was a big thing.
How were those received?
Bizarrely, kind of.
I think that
the you know, the twenty five year old manager is usually not
prepared for some shoulder length hair, twenty one year old to come up and say,
hey, I stole five hundred dollars worth of jalapeno and cheese sausages.
I need to make that I need to make this right.
How can I how can I pay this back?
There was generally some H.R. policy or
something that they couldn't just take money, oddly enough.
And so I was usually directed to some like charity they had at the kiosk.
It'd be like you can buy five dollars for St. Jude's or whatever.
And so I would purchase that amount worth
of.
Yeah.
Like charity things, that's kind of a cool way to do it, because not everybody that we
go after with the ninth step is going to be prepared for us to do it in the way
that would be most beneficial for us, but we still have to proceed as if it's going
to be and then they take it as they're going to take it.
The twenty five year old manager, whomever
he doesn't know from a perhaps or maybe he does.
And
sometimes the expectation is that if I've been
wronged, that guy who wronged me is going to make amends.
Did you find any of those cases with people
who are just kind of where they said, I've been waiting to hear from you?
I didn't find anybody that said that they were waiting for me.
I did have
I did have a friend who is now sober.
I made amends to him and he was, you know, don't worry about it.
And then also, like, showed me his new bong.
And this is when my dad,
like, I still wasn't driving, so he drove me up to Austin, San Marcos to make a host
of amends and my dad's like sitting in the car in the parking lot.
And Evan hands me his bong.
And I was like, you know, two months sober and I was like, oh,
it's like, OK, like, cool. Thanks, man.
Well, that could have that could have
busted your sobriety right there if you weren't careful, right?
Yeah. I remember being really freaked out by that.
You did your eighth and ninth step.
And then, of course,
I would assume you worked through 10, 11 and 12.
When did you get your first sponsee and did Toby have you on the lookout
for somebody once you had completed your your 12 steps?
Yeah.
So I was actually told that I was supposed
to be sponsoring as I was working on my amends.
Really? OK, cool.
Yeah, because then because then the book says something about
we commenced upon this way of living as we cleaned up the past.
So.
So I was sponsoring someone at like three months sober.
Really? Wow.
That's amazing.
Yeah, I've heard people say, well, you know, I've only been sober three months.
And then the response to that is, well,
then give them three months of experience that you've got, you know.
And so what was that like sponsoring when you first got your when you got your first
sponsee? It was rewarding.
I don't think I mean, in hindsight, I was doing a terrible job.
I was I was essentially trying to, like,
convince this person that was addicted to Adderall that they were an alcoholic
and they were adamantly like, I don't have a problem with alcohol.
And I was like, yes, you do.
But I was sincerely trying to help.
Wow. So it was someone that was in the same sober living as me.
Wow. OK, so three months into your program, you're you're talking to this guy
and you weren't able to get him to see the light, were you?
Nope.
But I've talked to him like in years since then, and he's had a lot of problems.
And had gotten was getting sober again.
So I try to really guys I've worked with stay in touch with them, even if I don't
hear from or go out, they go out drinking, I'll send them like a text like once a
year, just like, hey, Dustin, hope you're doing well, man, thinking about you.
So how many guys were you sponsoring at early on?
I think that ever since I've been sober,
I've pretty much sponsored at least one person, if not two or three.
Wow. Yeah.
And that was something that was impressed upon me by Toby.
And I'm really grateful for him in so many ways.
But whenever he first was working the steps with me, he had he was married and had
two small kids and owned a business and it really impressed upon me that this is
not just something that you do like when you have free time or,
you know, if you can get around to it, this is someone who had a very full life
and still prioritize this.
And so it's kind of impressed upon me that if you're ever too busy to not be
sponsoring at least one or two men, then something's wrong with your priorities.
Yeah, I get that.
In fact, my sponsor told me that it was
unlikely that even if I had three or four men, that it's unlikely they would all
call at the same time on the same day, you know, and some would be more responsive
than others and you had to help who you could help when you could help them.
Yeah, that's great.
So did you ever feel discouraged when you
were sponsoring men who weren't able to get sober?
At certain times I was.
I think that
at certain times, especially if it was
someone that I had been working with for like a year or two.
But it was also taught to me that you're
supposed to be constantly seeking out other men to help and sponsor because the
actual follow through rate is so low, the percentage of people that I've, quote
unquote, sponsored as in they've asked me to sponsor them.
Versus fifth steps I've heard is probably only about 20 percent or 10, maybe.
Yeah, that's that's about right.
That's that's been my experience, too, that there are lots of guys who start out all
gung ho, but the the real ball buster, so to speak, is
the fourth step and the willingness or unwillingness to do it.
I'm never too hard on men who won't do it.
I always just say, don't expect to move
ahead if you're not willing to to do that particular step.
And sometimes they'll find a different sponsor.
Sometimes they'll actually get down to doing the work.
I'm assuming that you've had men you've sponsored who are now sponsoring.
Have you met any of your grand sponsees or great grand sponsees?
What's that been like for you?
So I have met a grand sponsees and I've had them over.
That's been that's been really cool.
Just the idea that, you know, time that I spend helping somebody can still be paying
dividends.
Yeah.
And then later, you know, like a very large ripple effect.
You know, talking with you today, Lee, has just the energy of talking to you.
Now, I see a man who appears grateful,
somebody who, if I didn't know better, I'd swear, enjoys his sobriety pretty well.
Is that a reasonable way to think?
Yeah, I would say so.
At the same time, I think that it's
striking to me that I haven't talked about God or the spiritual component
throughout this interview.
That was coming.
Yeah.
Something that's dawned on me in longer term sobriety, though, is that sometimes I
can get overly focused on like the mechanics of AA and not like the spirit of it.
And I've had close calls in longer term
sobriety with essentially being a very involved member, but kind of getting dried
out emotionally. Yeah.
Yeah. So let's talk about the spiritual end
of the program for you. What's that been like?
And how has that changed over the years that you've been sober?
So I think that it's I was militantly atheist whenever I first got in here and
had this narrative that life is meaningless and you blah, blah, blah.
I really identified with the phrase good orderly direction.
And that was something that when Toby said we're going to take the 12 steps to go
from a drug and alcohol centered life to a
God centered life, that was something I was willing to do.
Oddly enough, though, for for a number of years, probably the first five or six
years, I still had this very kind of static relationship with God that
if I'm doing the deal and on the beam, then God's got my back.
If I'm not, then God is kind of just
standing aside, waiting for me to get my act together.
It wasn't until about
five or six years sober that I really started taking a look at that and
moving away from seeing God as being this more kind of it wasn't just like a
functional or transactional relationship, it was actually like the idea of God
being loving and caring and wanting a relationship with you.
That's a beautiful way to think, too.
I mean, and that that shows real a real
transition for you from that atheistic frame of mind to one where you're willing
to place your will in life in the care of of a higher power.
I always used to think that early on that the good stuff that happened
in my life was God working in my life, but the bad stuff was something else.
And then somewhere along the way, I got disabused of that notion to realize
that the good stuff, the bad stuff and all stuff is God's realm.
It's not for me to decide when and if God works in my life.
I'm not trying to wake a sleeping giant every time I need him.
And that's a
nice realization to come to after a while.
Sounds like you had the same sort of feeling, huh?
So one of the things that happens is that people get sober and even in meetings,
we go to meetings after meetings and people, the majority of time that we speak
and talk, we're talking about the what it was like and the what happened part.
Over the past eight years, can you think of some times where your
sobriety was really, really challenged and how did you get through those times?
So I think a big thing that's
stands out is when I was about a year sober, I was very much working a program
like all three sides of the triangle didn't want to drink, but also was
becoming extremely depressed and was experiencing some suicidality, too.
But I had this pride of, you know, I work the steps.
I'm in AA. I don't take meds or anything like that.
And so it wasn't until I talked to my mom about it and she was very
upset that I kind of got the humility to go see a psychiatrist, which has been
wildly beneficial for me, but I think that had I gone on long
enough in that state that I would have drank again.
So that was extremely challenging.
There's also been a time wherever I
have talked to a good friend of mine who had time sober, started drinking again.
He was.
Partially working in the addiction field, too.
Yeah. The whole thing about like there's hard drinkers.
Sure.
And this guy said, oh, you know, I don't think you're an alcoholic.
I just think you were probably a hard drinker.
And I said, well, maybe you're right, but I'd rather not chance it.
Yeah. For some reason, I got it in my head that
the fact that I had even entertained that verbally meant that I was not done.
And therefore, you know,
if I'm not done, it's just a matter of time until I drink.
Then I might as well just drink now to get it over with.
It got just very kind of hysterical thinking quickly.
Wow. And so, yeah, that was at about six years sober.
But I've had I've told my story and I've
had people like you were saying that got sober young and multiple people have told
me that at times you will question your alcoholism when you get sober young.
And so the answer is to
keep doing what you're doing and do the next right thing.
And you don't need to go back and hyperanalyze everything.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's a good way to think of it.
Can you think of any times where things got really good for you and perhaps you
felt like you didn't need AA as much or as frequently?
So luckily, no, I was also it was really
impressed upon me the whole like getting a home group.
Oh, yeah. And a service commitment.
And so I went to the same Tuesday
night meeting every week for six and a half years.
And I probably only missed like five times.
And it was really important that, you know, like except for some really extreme
extenuating circumstances, you go there and did you do service work there?
Like, were you the secretary and the coffee guy and
chairperson, intergroup rep, treasurer, all that stuff.
Cool.
Well, you know, you've pointed to some
really important facets of a well-worked program and the fact that you have
a home group, I think, is absolutely critical for anybody.
People need to know other people.
And sometimes I get a little concerned when I see a man coming in.
He comes in right when the meeting starts.
He leaves right when the meeting is over.
And the only thing he picks up from the
meeting is what's been shared in little three to five minute segments.
But he doesn't get to know anybody.
And it amazes me that even in meetings I've been going to for years, there are
still men around who I've been going to this.
The same meetings for all those years who still don't know the names of the guys
who, like them, have been going to that meeting a while.
And I'm thinking, you know, what is there
about just sticking around and socializing for a few minutes?
That's so hard. But, you know, maybe not
everybody's into that sort of thing, but it sounds like you get it.
I think that was at the outpost meeting
one time that I heard someone say that, you know, you're really in AA whenever you
go over to somebody's house.
That is very, very cool.
And when you meet their wives and families,
being able to get to know those guys and know their families, it's like you said,
it's a great way to feel really super engaged in the program.
As we wrap up, I wanted to just ask you
about your opinions on using Zoom as your primary connection.
What's that been like for you?
So I think that as you'd asked earlier,
that was the time where I ended up having going to the least amount of meetings.
There was a period, especially towards the beginning,
where so much of my program was really had to do with my home group.
And then I had, you know, H&I commitments at a detox and that like a shelter.
What what used to be this very dynamic
thing where I came early and was service and stayed late was just logging in 30
seconds before my home group started logging out right after.
And that's when I got kind of a bit more
squirrelly and realized that I really needed to be stepping it up.
And so I've enjoyed it.
There's been good and bad components.
I found that I had to be really intentional
and disciplined about not texting, not having my phone out, logging out of iMessage.
I actually started going to in-person
meetings probably about like four months ago.
Oh, that's cool. Yeah.
And reverted like almost exclusively to that because there was just
something that was it's very intentional if I have to drive somewhere.
But it's so easy if I'm just telling myself, oh, I'll hit this 8 p.m.
or I won't and I'll decide at 7.55 whether or not I do.
That's interesting because a lot of people feel like they've stepped up their
meetings. For me, I like not having to drive.
But, you know, I'm I'm very much of a live meeting kind of guy.
But I'm still waiting for things to settle down a little bit with this whole
pandemic. But I am looking forward to getting back to meetings, especially meetings that you're in.
I've really enjoyed getting to know you over the years that we've known each other.
We've had an opportunity to go to some meetings together.
I really appreciate you doing this.
You strike me as a man who's working a very strong program.
And the things that you've told me today about how you've dealt with good times
and some of the some of the bad times have been really powerful.
I can see somebody who has a really
wonderful future ahead of them by doing what you said earlier.
And that is making your sobriety your number one
priority. That is the key to it all.
I know that you were a little bit nervous about doing this today, but you've done
a marvelous job. You really have, Lee. And I want to thank you for doing this.
I love you and respect you as a fellow brother in Alcoholics Anonymous, man.
You're you're a good person and I love the way you work your program.
And spending time with you today,
getting to know more about it was just a double treat for me.
So I love and respect you too a lot, Howard, and especially
your engagement for being in long term sobriety.
That's something that I really look up to and aspire to,
that I want to continue to be of maximum service, hopefully decades from now.
And so it doesn't have to be that, oh, I get sober and then, you know, I get,
quote unquote, busy and AA becomes something that I just barely do just to check a box.
I appreciate you saying that.
Like it is for me.
It doesn't preclude the possibility that life will get very,
very busy for you along the way in sobriety.
It was that way for me having three children all within like a five year period.
They're all just like a year and a half apart.
And that whole, you know, the babyhood and childhood,
that was a really stressful, busy, busy time.
And I still had to find a way to make my program a priority
without feeling guilty about it, because it's really easy to think, well,
I'm going to a meeting.
So that must be
I'm neglecting my children.
Well, no, it just means that I'm going to a meeting.
So, you know, enjoy that.
You're still single.
Are you single?
I'm engaged, actually.
Oh, you are. Congratulations.
Coolness. Wow.
Thank you. Yeah.
So things have been fantastic with her and with career stuff and with.
Yeah, yeah.
Immediate family, just lots of different ways in which I'm grateful
to be able to do this and have stability and purpose.
Talk about a blessing, man.
You know, that's a real gift.
I've seen them illuminated today in this interview, and you're a good man.
Many thanks for doing this, Lee.
Absolutely.
Well, there you have it, my friends, another AA Recoveries interview show.
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