Inpatient Treatment as an Expensive Crash Course in Maturity — Courtney P.

Welcome back, my friends, to Hey! Hey! Recovery Interviews. I'm your host, Howard L., and
I'm an alcoholic, sober since January 1, 1988, one day at a time. I'm grateful you've joined
us. Hey! Hey! Recovery Interviews is the podcast where Alcoholics Anonymous members from around
the world share their extraordinary stories of experience, strength, and hope. My guest
on today's show is Courtney P., who I'd occasionally seen over the past several years,
but whose story was mostly unfamiliar to me. One of my earlier podcast guests had suggested
that Courtney's story would resonate well with other alcoholics, especially those who
had tried AA at an earlier age, only to find they couldn't stay sober until they earnestly
started to work the program as suggested. Courtney's backstory is not dissimilar to
those who grew up in tumultuous families in which alcoholism was a part of their lives.
The seeming frivolity and celebratory aspects of drinking cloaked the actual dysfunction
that was occurring in the family. By the time she was drinking on a regular basis in her
teenage years, Courtney's budding alcoholism had become yet another family secret to bear.
Though she was mostly a binge drinker, the negative aspects of the disease were happening
more and more frequently when, at 21 years of age, Courtney checked herself into an inpatient
treatment center in Canada. Courtney was a young, young, young, young, young, young,
young, young. Ironically, despite her emotional gloom and desperate need for help, her family
still tried to dissuade her from going into treatment. Fortunately, Courtney's desire
to get help prevailed over the family denial that she had a problem. She got the help she
needed in treatment and actually stopped drinking for a while. But like many alcoholics who
believe inpatient treatment and some aftercare are an all-sufficient solution, she failed
to truly engage with AA. She found herself in a situation where she could not drink,
and she ended up drinking again within months. It took Courtney many more years of living
in alcoholic despair and emotional turmoil for her to hit bottom. By mid-2014, with a
waning desire to even stay alive, she entered AA and found hope at last. She began regular
attendance of meetings and found a dedicated sponsor with whom she worked the steps. Her
daily surrender to a higher power, combined with a close fellowship of women and regular
service work, brought her to a higher level of self-confidence. She was able to get a
lot of gifts and experience and it was a lot of fun.
She was able to do many things for the program. The many gifts she has given and received
by virtue of her active involvement in Alcoholics Anonymous are proof positive of the change
the program can create for those who are ready and willing to go to any lengths to stay sober.
Courtney's willingness to share her story has been a fine gift to me and I'm thrilled
to be able to share it with you. It's a story that has enough similarities for everyone
to identify with.
How to Turn the Tides Into a Justice
had enough differences to assure even the most skeptical listeners that the program of Alcoholics
Anonymous is indeed effective beyond any shadow of a doubt. As you listen to this episode of
AA Recovery Interviews, I hope you'll find Courtney's story as intriguing as I have.
So please enjoy the next 60 minutes with my friend and AA sister, Courtney P.
I'm Courtney and I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Courtney. Hi. Thanks for coming on the AA Recovery
Interviews podcast today. I'm so pleased that you could do this and it's so nice to see your
smiling face. I haven't seen you in a long time. Thank you so much for having me. Well, I'm grateful
that you're here today. I know you and I, we've met each other and I'm sure we've sat in a few
meetings together over the years, but I'll admit that I really don't know a whole lot about your
story. This should be a very enjoyable interview for both of us. So I understand that you have a
birthday coming up. I do, yeah, on the 25th.
27th, I will have eight years. Eight years. Yeah. Wow. I know. Now, is that eight years,
the first eight years that you've had or did you try the program previously?
I got introduced to the program when I was 21, but it was, there were a lot of circumstances
going on at the time that made it seem like it wasn't for me. So this is my real first go at
sobriety.
And, uh, started when I was 30.
So your sobriety date is July?
27th, 2014.
So what was happening in the early part of July that was leading up to that terrific day?
I don't know if I should say that on here.
Um, what was leading up to July 27th was my 30th birthday. I, that last year had really,
you know, tried to cut back on drinking, AKA go on many diets. That's what I would always say.
I'm like, Oh, I'm on a diet. I can't drink, you know? Um, but then an event or a birthday or
a trip would come up and I would fall off the wagon and kind of started to see that I had no
control over what happened truly when I took a drink of alcohol. So when I was coming up on my
30th birthday, I had previously planned a trip to Mexico with friends and I was really anxious
about it because I knew I wasn't going to be able to go on that trip and not drink. Um, and I hadn't
been to AA or anything. And, um, and so I went on that trip and it was just insanity and a lot
of blackouts and parts of the trip. I don't remember. And, um, and I was with a group of
friends who partied like I did too. So we each kind of took one.
One for the team being the center of attention on the shenanigans, I guess. And, um, and when I
came back from that trip, I had sworn off alcohol. I was like, okay, that was it. I'm done. And then
three weeks later, so around the 27th, I, uh, or the 26th, actually, I went out, uh, to my pool
and a friend brought beer and I went ahead and had one, uh, because I, I had no defense against it.
And, um, that led to my final blackout and had no idea I would be going to AA the next day. But,
um, when I was laying by the pool with a friend, uh, I asked him like, do you ever just feel like
you're swimming against the current and you're just so worn down, but you don't know what else
to do. And, uh, then I went on to party the rest of that night and the next day I got sober. So
when I was 21,
I was living in Austin. Um, and I was feeling really depressed, but also was experiencing a
lot of blackout binge drinking. And so I woke up one day and, um, just kind of as a culmination of
all the things that had led up to this, this particular day, I reached out to my parents
and asked for help. And, um, long story short, I ended up in treatment in Canada, uh, about a week
later.
Why Canada?
Because it, my, I guess the, the sentiment in my family is that if I left the country,
no, no one in America would know I was an alcoholic.
I've heard people leaving the city or leaving the state, but, uh, so you went to Canada for
treatment. What was that like?
I did. I went just outside of Montreal. Um, my mom had heard a friend went to this place and
she learned how to drink wine like a lady after leaving there.
So that was the hope for me. It was very surreal experience. It was not a fancy place, but, um,
they were pretty focused on 12 steps from what I can vaguely remember. And they took me to some
meetings in the outskirts of Montreal, where it was like a lot of old French speaking men
smoking cigarettes. And I was this 21 scared girl. And that's,
where I got introduced to the 12 steps. All the meetings were outside of the treatment center. We
hopped in one of those, uh, vans and went. So, so did you have to detox when you got there?
I did not. Um, I was not necessarily having like, you know, blatant physical withdrawal from
alcohol. I've always been kind of a sporadic binge drinker. Um, and so there was not a detox
necessary.
That was happening up in Canada. How many years before?
Before you came into AA.
That was nine years before I came to AA in America.
What did you think about AA when you were sitting in those early meetings?
Oh, I thought my life was, I, it gave me hope. And also at the same time felt like my life was over.
In what way?
I think just being so young and afraid to really submit to these ideas.
Was very overwhelming for me. Yeah. I just, I hadn't had, I think enough consequences.
And I had been through a lot of like outward circumstances. So it was too,
my alcoholism was disguised in those things.
So as you were sitting there in those first meetings, feeling like
encouraged, but discouraged at the same time, do you recall what things you heard in those early
meetings?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
stuck with you through the nine years so that when you finally got to AA, you were informed
differently than somebody who was coming there for the first time?
Well, I learned a lot about the disease of alcoholism and that it is a disease and I could
see it in other people in my life. I just couldn't see it in myself. And so actually about five years
after I had been to treatment, I came out and we called it basically an expensive maturity
lesson for me. But even, you know, in my family, nobody thought I was an alcoholic, but my little
brother was kind of starting to really experience the heavy consequences of drinking and drugs. And
I knew how to spot that and to at least articulate to my family, you know, what I was seeing in him.
And then, so five years after I got out of treatment, he went into treatment and was able to
get.
Into long-term sobriety that at that time. So that kind of increased my exposure to AA,
seeing him go through it, but I still was in very much denial that I was like him.
Yeah, I get it. So whatever you had gotten from treatment to that point was sufficient
to be able to see what was going on with him and make some recommendations to your family about
that, huh? Yeah. So you were 21. What had gone on in your family of origin that may have predicted
that you would end up in treatment at 21? I grew up in a family that it was very celebratory
and that involved a lot of alcohol. And I think the, the hard years of my teenage life that led
to that when I was 21, um, in high school, I experienced my parents going through a very
tumultuous divorce and dealing with their own battles. You know, I have a little brother,
who was kind of navigating his disease and I had, uh, several family members pass away
and some other just traumatic, you know, events that occurred to kind of take me
to a place where I think by the time I was 18, I can just remember feeling like
I didn't care anymore if I lived or died really is where all of that kind of led me. Um, and so
in survival mode, you know, I, I would sleep a lot during the day. I would, I was so lost when
I finally went off to college and got out of the house. Um, I slept and then when I wasn't sleeping,
I got up to drink and it was social, you know, I was around other people, so I wasn't drinking
alone, but, um, it was a problem. And looking back, I can see what a problem it was, but
just, it was, there were so many,
circumstances that kind of led to that despair that, um, it was hard to pinpoint what it could
be. And that was kind of a big part of my journey is like always trying to find what's wrong with
me. Like, what could it possibly be? At 18, you're, you're thinking it doesn't make any
difference if I live or die. Uh, and that is a very, you know, a very serious way to, to think.
Had you any other coexisting issues with depression or other things that may have
contributed, do you think, or was it pretty much all the alcohol and, and whatever else you were
doing? I think it's kind of like chicken or the egg, you know, it's like, um, I definitely was
suffering from the family disease and, you know, growing up in the home that I did and
definitely battled with depression. Like I have definitely had my struggles there,
but I was not able to even begin approaching like what needed to be untangled with all of that
before.
Yeah, that's, that's a tough thing. And I didn't get into any serious therapy for the depression
until I'd gotten sober. And what I've come to find out is that there are very many people in
the program who suffer from clinical depression. And it's ironic that we would turn to a depressant
to deal with depression. Uh, yeah, it sounds to me though, like there's some family history.
I think there's probably a long line of alcoholism in my family.
Um,
hesitant to, you know, I think to thine own self be true. So they'd have to label themselves as
that. But yeah, so it's kind of confusing on how to talk about their story. But mine is I was
diagnosed with PTSD as a result of some things that occurred when I was young. And, um, that
led to depression and that led to alcoholism. Yeah. Yeah. That's tough. I'm sorry that you
had to go through that. Thank you. When you were a kid, did you see any outward manifestations of
people's dreams?
Drinking that concerned you or what did that look like when you were, when you were a little kid?
When I was a kid, it was kind of confusing because on the outside, we
appeared as a very happy, you know, good looking, successful family, I guess. And then
behind closed doors, there were, you know, um, blackouts, passing out, hangovers, anger,
um, just a lot of confusion, all the passive aggressive, you know, and blame and just pretty
toxic environment. But that would occur and coexist with being told, no, we are great. Everybody
thinks we're great. And it mattered. All that matters is that the outside thinks we're okay.
It doesn't matter what's going on inside. So that was just at least how I internalized all of that.
Yeah. Keep the family secret at any cost.
Exactly. And I think that's why even like talking about this right now feels uncomfortable because
it is a family secret. You know, it's, it's hard to, uh, feel like I'm going against that in some
way. I think that that kind of wiring is hardwired into our personalities and into our psyche.
Yeah.
Even decades later, we're still feeling like we need to hide stuff, even when the people aren't
around. I mean, both my parents have been deceased for quite a while and there's still times that
things trigger me into the old way of thinking. But yours is a very similar story. If you've
listened to some of these other interviews, it's a very similar story to a lot of people that
they go through this as kids and that same secret setting process takes place so that when they have
the first opportunity, meaning people like me or you or any other alcoholic, when they have the
opportunity to take that first drink or drink, it's a very similar story. And I think that's
in my case, I was expectant and hopeful because I knew how miserable I was feeling.
What were you feeling when you took your first drink and how old were you?
I think I was in sixth grade.
So about 12?
12, yeah. I think so. And, uh, the way I kind of think back on myself is I was such a baby Al-Anon,
you know, I was so, I was, I'm the first child, you know, I saw and protected my brother from a
lot of things. And, you know, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was,
And so when I took my first drink, what I knew of alcohol is that I needed to do my best to
control it. And that if, that I should, I guess the, the sentiment or the idea I had around
alcohol is like, I should be able to drink a lot of this stuff and not have any and not be drunk,
you know, like just drink, drink as much as you can without, without getting in trouble or without,
um,
um, you know, losing control. What was your expectation of the outcome though? Uh, when,
when you, when you drank, how did you expect to feel when you were drunk?
Oh, I just remember feeling that sort of sense of oblivion, but like a nice one, a nice oblivion,
you know, just the release of worry, the feeling of being connected to the people I was doing it
with. And, um, and then in a way, like a, a connection with my family.
So when you took that first drink or those first drinks, what was the initial feeling that you had
as you were getting drunk for the first time? Uh, well, I remember it feeling warm. I'm pretty
sure it was Jack Daniels and Coke. And I remember enjoying it. I liked getting away with something.
I liked that.
Did you have any immediate consequences from, from drinking? Did you get sick?
I didn't get sick the first time I drank and a friend of mine did, and I was able to help
the friend. And so I kind of remember being like, Oh, see, I can do this.
The next day, did you remember everything that had happened or did you black out?
I don't think I blacked out. Um, I was dipping my toe in the water
and I did that a few different times at a young age. My first consequences in middle school
uh, I actually got caught smoking pot behind some tennis courts with a friend who is now
has several years sober as well. And I did start to have some consequences and would swear off
or turn my life over to Jesus or whatever was asked of me to repent. I mean, I just learned
that that's how you get out of trouble. If people know you're giving it over to Jesus, you're going
to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're going to, you're
going to get out of trouble. So that became a good alibi for me and later on too.
So you, you tried the, uh, the religious approach first as a way to kind of talk yourself out of it.
Uh, it was more just like a get out of jail card. It was like, uh, there were a couple
different times, like in high school, we got pulled over, uh, and there was beer in the car.
The two guys that I was in the car with got in trouble, but I pulled the cop aside and told him
I'm a good Christian girl and that I will never do this again. And, uh, and then again, I went on
a, like a young life ski trip and, um, got caught smoking pot again and gave my life to Jesus. They
didn't call my parents, you know? So I just learned as long as I, as long as I, uh, repented
that I could manipulate people. Did you see it as just a way to finagle the system and be able to do
what you wanted to do and get away with it? Or were you earnest about your desire to want to
do whatever it was they were asking you to do? Uh, I mean, I think I mostly just didn't want
to get in trouble, but there were, there's a part of me that wanted, I mean, I was for a long time
sort of a little perfectionist. And I think the Al-Anon in me, like, yeah, I really did want to
be good, but I was very attracted to rebellion and getting rid of it. And I think that's, I think
that's, I think that's a really good way to get away with things. And so. Now what, what kind of
crowd were you hanging with in, in high school? I was kind of able to be friends with anybody,
but I liked, I liked people who partied and had a driver's license. I was young for my grade, so
I loved driving. So I would offer to drive people's cars and, um, go party with them. But yeah,
I was with the party crowd. Were you like a designated driver? Yeah. Sometimes I would
offer to be the designated driver, but I'd be,
I'd be like 14 years old, you know? Uh, so I just liked getting away with stuff and freedom and
like what seemed like freedom to me. And so I would drive my friends to go party and then I'd
get to drive the car. Wow. That sounds like, that sounds like a lot of fun. It started out pretty
fun. Yeah. And I, it's funny, there's a handful of my friends that are sober, you know, from that
group. And yeah, but I had a lot of friends and I had a lot of friends at different schools,
and I could kind of like move from crowd to crowd. And I think I liked that now looking back,
like I, if I messed up in one area, I could go hang with other people that weren't mad at me or,
you know, just kind of, um, but I did like having a lot of different groups of friends and
like Dazed and Confused was a popular movie at the time. And so that's kind of how I envisioned
living out my life. And those were my, um, you know,
my idols back then. How did you do in school? What was your schoolastic life like?
Kind of interesting. I, I made it through school, but there was a lot of stuff going on at home when
I was in high school. And that's where I really started to struggle in school. I was able to kind
of pull it through. Like I would go a whole semester, not turning in homework. And the
teacher would say, if you can get an A on your final, like we'll give you a good grade. And I
would be able to do that. I was always,
smart, but I did not have it in me to apply myself or, or the discipline or the, just the
ability to like sit with myself for very long. And I got prescribed Adderall in high school too.
Is that for ADD?
Yeah. I became a little, a little machine. I, I didn't do my assignments, but I was smart enough
to excel when I needed to. I get it. Yeah. I wasn't functional. I was really struggling, but
I wasn't, I wasn't daily drinking or, you know, I think that the emotional aspect of alcoholism
had definitely taken hold, but the physical had not.
Did you ever identify with family patterns? Did you give any thought to that at the time?
I did not have much consciousness or clarity. I, I always thought of myself as a deep thinker,
but when it came to like self-awareness, it always seemed like depression,
I was not resonating with alcoholism.
So this is going on. Were there very many consequences,
jails or school or that sort of thing?
Well, with school, yes. I mean, I could not maintain good grades. I could hardly go to class.
I did not go to jail. Like that same first thing I noticed when I took my first drink was like,
oh, I can help other people. And I can,
I can look a cop straight in the eye.
I can look straight faced and pretend to be sober. And so I really liked that about myself and
almost would consider that a challenge when I was drinking.
One thing my mom told me was to be able to drink the boys under the table.
There was a story about her, like getting pulled over for drunk driving and walking a straight
line in a handstand. Those were the kinds of things that were celebrated in my family,
you know, like that rebellion, the getting away with whatever and,
and making it a charming,
But it's just a dipliral, chronic social MPR.
Because what comes first is our reaction to this so-called
Why it is,
The past.
and our reality breaking story. And so those were my aspirations. I wasn't going to get in trouble.
I knew how to be the life of the party. And unfortunately, sometimes I would embarrassed myself
and I would blackout and I would have those kinds of damaging things happen.
But I was raised in delusion so I had no clarity on what...on myself at all.
Yeah, that's interesting that you say you were raised in that kind of atmosphere and yet it's
the very people in this building then,
in that atmosphere who wanted you to go to treatment? They didn't want me to go to treatment.
They didn't want you to go to treatment? No. That's why I went to Canada. I wanted to go
to treatment. I knew some, I, it was always me saying like, something's wrong with me. And they'd
be like, nah, you're fine. You're just dramatic or you're just emotional or whatever. Um, when I
actually did get sober this time, I went to lunch with a family member and she was like, you're
really not an alcoholic. Like, we'll just get you a life coach. And I was like, let's just see if
this sticks. Like, let's just see. Uh, definitely nobody was wanting me to go to treatment or
anything like that. What were the final couple of years and months like before you turned yourself
into treatment in Canada? Uh, well the treatment in Canada, that was when I was 21. That I had
gone off to college. My parents had gotten divorced. Like I had been through like a few
pretty traumatic experiences. I had been through a lot of things. I had been through a lot of
traumatic things, uh, and just had completely lost myself. And I just felt like I was drowning
all the time. And like knowing in my heart, there was something better for me and not knowing how to
go about living. Like, I just didn't know how to live. And one morning when I finally woke up from
a blackout, like, and I had started blacking out pretty regularly in college to, to the point where
like one time I didn't have a Halloween costume and I was like, I'll just be,
blackout girl. Cause I know that's going to happen, you know? And it was like, okay.
What does blackout girl look like?
You don't have to wear one. You just go as yourself. Uh, yeah, that was my superpower.
That's the first I've heard that costume. That's wonderful.
I knew how to celebrate my demise. That is one thing I guess I had learned. And at that point,
enough had happened where, you know, when you're a young girl and you're in college and you're
drunk, uh, you cannot guarantee your own safety.
And I had been in situations where I had been taken advantage of and not been able to protect
myself. And your self-esteem just becomes obliterated. And by the time I asked for help,
like I had been through some pretty bad stuff. And so, but all secret, all secret. And so
my family's, you know, saw the picture of me. They, they wanted to believe. And when I was
feeling messed up and I was,
asking for help, it was hard for them to conceive that I was as far down feeling as I was.
So you had to feel that yourself. You weren't really getting a whole lot of support from your
family. No. Confirming that some of the issues that were family oriented and not a whole lot
of help, I guess, dealing with the aftermath of some of those horrible situations that you were
in. Yeah. When I went to treatment, I remember in our like family session, it was the first time my
parents had been in the same room since they had started.
They're divorced, I believe. And it was very toxic. And, and I remember the, the guy who ran
the program pulled me aside and he was like, you've really got to orphan yourself from these
people. Like you're an adult now, like you got to find a way to go get healthy. But we were so
enmeshed and I didn't know how to do that. And I, yes, at age physically, I was 21, but really
mentally, I was such a child. And, and so.
Helpless in a sense with how to do that. So it was like, I don't know what to do. And
my family's sentiment was one I hear often is like, you know, pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, get some discipline, go to church, get a job, you know, do what you have to do and stop
being, stop having a problem.
Well, and sometimes being in a family week or a family visit to someone who's in treatment
can be the beginning.
Did your younger brother participate in that family thing?
Yes, but he was such a mess that, you know, we're in my family, like humor is a big thing. So it was
all just kind of brushed off with humor and jokes and then a delusion that I was going to come out
of there and drink like a normal person or be able to handle my liquor without consequences.
The dream of every alcoholic.
How disappointing to have.
That kind of behavior while you're trying to get well and people are just kind of brushing it off to the side.
Yeah. You know, I guess if I've learned anything, it's like there are these ugly parts to our past that are so painful.
But if I'm in acceptance of how things were and I know I can't change the past, it's like all of that led me to where I am today and I'm healing and, you know, I found my way.
And so that's a really beautiful thing.
And I was able to kind of separate.
Myself eventually in a way that, like, I'm really becoming my own person, you know, without needing needing their approval, validation or support.
It's such progress, too.
Yes, it is.
It's been a long road.
So how long were you in treatment in Canada there?
It was like 28 days or something like that.
Did you do IOP afterwards?
It was recommended, but no, we we did it by my family's program, which was
granted.
It was like, get a job and get a get an allowance and it was not, no, I wasn't setting up.
I went I actually I did an aftercare.
Sorry, it's been so long.
So, I mean, this is like almost this is 20 years ago.
So I did go to this psychiatrist and a group and it was so bizarre and he prescribed me so many drugs.
Yeah.
And so.
I guess I mean, looking back, it just didn't seem like it was meant to be for me to be sober at the time.
I mean, he was prescribing me Adderall, Klonopin, Topamax, just some maybe Welbutrin, like just a multitude of pills to take daily to stay sober and to function.
And it was just it was wild.
That's a real disservice to the alcoholic who might otherwise get sober in AA for.
Psychiatrists to think that he can prescribe people's way out of alcoholism.
That's that's tough.
Yes.
That's tough.
Yeah.
And I think it confuses a lot of people today.
I'm glad that that's not how I see the path to sobriety, but I hate to see it for other people.
I agree with you 100 percent.
And that's why you and I, you know, recovering people need to when we see that kind of thing or hear that kind of thing going on, we need to speak up about it.
Yeah, I feel very passionately about that.
And when I see treatment centers that provide inpatients with a buffet of ways to get sober, it's like that's the last thing we need.
That's the last thing we need.
I don't need to choose from, you know, a grab bag of I'm so glad I came to AA.
I'm glad you did, too.
And I'm glad to hear what you just said, because, you know, I think a lot of people lose sight of the fact that the treatment centers and even the aftercare groups.
Are really to get the ball rolling.
But I've heard of so many people going through treatment and multiple treatments with the idea.
And I don't think that the idea is dispelled by the treatment centers because it would get in the way of their business models.
But, you know, the idea is you go through this program and at the end of it, you will be you will be fixed.
Now, we'll tell you to go to AA, but it's really what we're doing for you, giving you all this self-knowledge and all this other good stuff.
But it sounds to me like the.
Treatment center you went to got you started in AA.
How much time did you put together before you slipped again?
Three months.
What were you thinking when you took that drink at the slip point?
Had you just not been going to meetings and stuff?
What was going on?
I haven't been going to meetings.
There was Hurricane Katrina.
Some of our family, like some good friends of my family, had lost everything in New Orleans.
And they had had a trip planned to Italy.
And so my mother generously offered them, you know, they well, they asked, like, can we come stay with you?
We can't take this trip.
Why don't you all go to Italy if we can just borrow your house in Houston for a little bit?
So I ended up at three months sober going to Italy with my mom, who I have a very challenging relationship with.
And two of her friends who were on all kinds of pills the whole time.
And so when I did finally take a.
That was also a trip that psychiatrists had prescribed me Klonopin to be able to tolerate being in a car with my mom.
So there you go.
And so I was on Klonopin and was sitting in somewhere in Tuscany and it was really beautiful.
And I thought, you know, I'm in Italy.
I can have one glass of wine.
You know, it was not nothing more complex than that.
And I did.
And nothing crazy happened.
I had the one glass.
And and that was and then I went a couple more months before I had another.
But it was so it was very slow for me and very controlled.
We'll be right back.
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And we're back.
Were you talking yourself into believing that maybe you were cured or that.
Maybe.
Maybe you weren't an alcoholic, but all you needed was the kind of pause that you had with the treatment center.
Yeah, I needed a break.
I needed some therapy.
I needed to get over some of the pain that I was going through.
And then I would come out and be my happy drinking self, you know.
So it sounds like you came out and were able to manage things long enough to convince yourself that maybe you didn't need AA, I guess.
I think that's a thread throughout my life is that I can will.
I had strong willpower.
I had willpower in some ways.
And I could adhere to like this delusion that I could drink like a normal person.
But I was always obsessing over it.
You know, I was always obsessing over what like if I could do it, what would happen next?
What are the consequences going to be like?
It was never a comfortable thing, but I could go periods without it.
And so because of because I could go time without alcohol, that didn't fit the definition.
I had created of what an alcoholic is.
So you might have been a binge drinker at that time.
You weren't drinking all the time.
But when you meant to drink, you drank.
Is that a safe thing to say?
Yes.
I would just say that I could never guarantee what was going to happen when I did drink.
I I never became a daily drinker.
I've always tried my best to control.
So that part in the big book when it's when you read, they stopped in time.
Oh, yeah.
And before I read that, I had considered myself alcoholic light and almost didn't feel like
a fit in the program, although I would black out.
I had consequences emotionally.
I was in despair and like hurting and experienced the demoralizing, you know, incomprehensible
demoralization.
So I had all of that.
But when it came to my addictions and my alcoholism, it was like a whack-a-mole.
You know, I could I could binge eat for months and avoid taking a drink.
But when I took a drink, then I got to put the food aside and then I'd go all into that.
So it was just kind of like squashing these different coping mechanisms.
Your next nine years from the time you slipped at three months until you got sober in AA
again, what were those nine years like?
If you had to describe high points, low points, what would you say?
I would like is summing them up in one word.
It was lost.
Lost.
Yeah.
I got into a relationship with somebody who ironically had been through treatment and
and related and also considered it an inexpensive maturity for himself as well.
And so that, as you can imagine, became toxic pretty quickly.
But that's what I was used to.
And so that kind of set off like a good distraction from myself, too.
So I could find people that were partying harder than me or they're alcoholics.
And then I could sort of codependently ignore my own stuff.
So that became a big part of my story and being able to just avoid looking within.
And then I was able to keep jobs for some amount of time.
And I moved to New York for a bit.
And that was the first time.
And I ever wrote and I kept a journal throughout all of this.
And I was like, I think I need Al-Anon.
So ironic.
Now, did you get married at that point?
No, no.
So I had been in this relationship and it was very on and off, very toxic, tumultuous.
And and so I actually New York was sort of a geographical escape.
A friend had a room open and I needed to get away from the relationship.
And the only way.
To do that is to move across the country.
So you brought yourself and your alcoholism to the Big Apple, huh?
I did. And I was so afraid to drink when I first got there because I was just heartbroken and I was having anxiety all the time.
So I was dry for a while until I wasn't.
And then when I wasn't, it was back to that sort of unsafe, unpredictable lifestyle.
That kind of persists over time.
What things had you heard up in Canada that you wish that you had remembered?
While you were in New York and in that period of time between 21 and, I guess, 30?
I think I was so delusional in Canada that I don't know what got through to me.
Maybe they had given me some books to read, like Codependent No More and things like that, because I I really believed other people were my problem.
So I wish I could tell you something stuck with me from Canada.
But yeah, I was very thick in my head about what was and wasn't my problem.
And so it was hard to penetrate.
Yeah, I get that. And that's the reason why I think people go back to treatment multiple times, irrespective of what they learned the first, second or third time.
It's still like you said, it still didn't get through.
So while you were in New York, how many years did you spend there?
Probably I spent a little under two years.
And I guess it was.
Probably four years before I got sober when I came back to Houston.
What was it like when you came back?
Well, I grew a lot in New York in the sense of like being a little more self-sufficient with work.
And I had a little confidence boost just because I had done New York, you know, and so I've always been like a songwriter and a like musician at heart.
And I played and wrote a lot of songs while I was there.
I was too shy to go.
Yeah.
I was too shy to go and like do anything in public.
But I started sharing that with people.
And so I had a little more confidence, I think, like and just grew into my own a little bit.
But I made it about a year back in Houston.
I decided to go back to school because I hadn't finished college.
And like about a year after being back in Houston, I had started backsliding into old patterns, old relationships.
That one I went to get away from came back.
And it wasn't too long and I wasn't able to escape myself, you know.
Were you were you living with your mother when you were back in Houston or were you on your own?
No, I was on my own.
Actually, the two months before I got sober, I stayed with my mom and it was so miserable.
Like my drinking went into high gear when I was staying at her house.
And that's that kind of pushed me over the edge.
And then I lived by my, you know.
I had moved into my apartment for about three weeks after being with her or maybe even one week and I got sober.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Early on in your story, I kind of caught the connection between your mom and you and going to Italy and Tuscany and the dangers of doing that again.
So you finally got to AA.
What were your first meetings like?
Obviously, you weren't a newbie because you'd gone to AA.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You'd gone as part of that treatment program.
I felt like a newbie.
I mean, it had been nine years and that stint of AA and rehab, like back when I was 21, it was it was very unmemorable for me, clearly.
Really?
Yeah, it really was.
And so when I finally went, my brother had been sober for five years.
And yeah, in that time of me doing my exploration, he had sobered up.
But he his drinking.
He didn't look different than mine did.
And so that was still sort of an outlier for me to say, I'm probably not an alcoholic because my drinking doesn't look like his and my life didn't look like his.
And when I woke up from my final night of drinking and had to reckon with myself, it was that thought again of like, I need to die or something needs to change.
And it was sort of a miracle.
I picked up the phone and called my brother because I I think subconsciously I knew I didn't want to call him until I was very sure because I didn't want to, you know, disrespect his program or anything.
And so I called him.
He came over.
He took me to my first meeting in all those years.
And it happened to be at the church where I grew up, the church where I had sort of decided.
Decided God wasn't for me and all of that.
And so it was just kind of like this strange synchronicity that I was feeling when I was sitting in that room and listening to people share about their experience.
And then and I was just kind of like swarmed after the meeting with like goodness and love.
And and I shared for the first time I got a desire chip and I and I just felt OK with being an AA finally.
It's like, OK, now I do belong, you know.
I had earned enough, whatever, points to get in.
That's wonderful.
I'm always so glad to hear that.
It's one of the things I like to ask in these interviews is sometimes the very first number of meetings you go to can really set the tone of your interest and desire to be an AA.
Sounds to me like you got what you needed when you first came.
Yeah.
Did you get a sponsor right away?
Yes, I did.
She was amazing.
And she's still one of my best friends today.
Elena S.
And she had eight years.
So it's kind of cool.
I'm coming up on eight years.
Have the amount of time she had when she walked me through the steps.
And I'm so grateful.
She did such an amazing job with me.
And we laugh about it.
I was talking to her on the phone the other night.
All the silly things she made me do besides just the steps.
But getting honest, she really helped me get honest.
And I was able to like.
Mm hmm.
To trust somebody for the first time.
So she was like, you know, what meeting are you going to tomorrow?
And I'm like, we go to one tomorrow.
You know, and.
What have you learned from her over the years and early on, let's say, that's helped you effectively sponsor other women?
Well, she's not my sponsor at this point.
Sue is.
But what I learned early on is how important it is to read through the literature.
I love.
I needed to read the big book with somebody because it can be confusing and there are parts that maybe would stand out better when you have somebody who's also had experience reading it.
And then she also took me through the 12 and 12.
And I really liked that for the detail and the and how much I related to the description of the alcoholic and those words.
And she held a lot of space for me to be a mess and to grow.
I was pretty.
Obstinate and argumentative, although I was willing to do what she said, I I didn't trust.
And so I needed a lot of explanation on why.
And she was patient with me.
She showed me true patience.
And but I think inversely, I was willing.
And so as long as I was willing, she'd sit and talk to me about it.
And that was really amazing.
And she also was a double winner.
So an Al-Anon, too.
And I think having that.
Component helped me kind of separate and have guidance in separating my identity and my alcoholism from my family's.
So you participated in Al-Anon as well.
So you're a double winner as well.
I'm a fair weather double winner.
I mean, I wish I could say I was able to adhere to two programs really well.
But my primary purpose is staying sober.
And then I slowly, slowly work the steps in Al-Anon.
Yeah.
And the primary purpose in Al-Anon is don't reveal that you're an alcoholic and don't mess up like I did when I first went to Al-Anon.
I'd say, my name's Howard and I'm an alcoholic.
I mean, I'm glad to be here.
I got some I got some sideways looks at that point.
So you've been staying sober all this time.
Yeah.
What kind of things have happened within your eight years of sobriety that you would look to as real milestones for you, good and bad,
that you've been able to get through as a result of being sober?
Yeah, I was thinking about that while we were talking about kind of my alcoholism and like, man, we should talk about life now because it is so much better.
I think when I first got sober, I was so worried that at the very old, old, old, old, old age of 30, that my life wasn't going to unfold.
You know, that I had like passed the buck on on getting married, on having a family, on achieving these all these things.
I had these.
Crazy limitations on myself that and on God.
And I was my life was so small when I first got sober.
And I throughout the last eight years, like I have developed such an incredible reliance on like my spiritual practice and God that like my life has become so big and so amazing.
And that.
There's been tons of challenges throughout the process.
But like because I work the steps and like could get out of my own way, I learned to be like a fully, fully realized or fully growing human.
And so now, like because alcohol is out of the way and I know how to get out of myself, like I can just name a million things like, you know, I got to have relationships, sober relationships.
And those were.
So challenging because I grew up in alcoholism.
I'd only had toxic ones up until now.
So learning to have a healthy and choose a healthy partner is really hard.
And and it talks a lot in like the twelve and twelve about our desire for connection and our desire for romance and money and all that stuff.
And and I really did learn that if you put your spiritual life first and grow spiritually, that those things do work themselves out.
And and that none of it is going to.
Look perfect.
Yeah. When you just said that there were a million things, I thought to myself, that was one of the things I meant to ask you earlier was about your spiritual life prior to AA.
And let's say even around the time, the first time you got sober, did what kind of spiritual life did you have until you got to AA?
So growing up, I always had that intuition and consciousness of God.
And I.
Loved that relationship.
But as I grew older, like I started to kind of focus more on the hypocrisy that I saw in people that had a God and that were in my religion and I didn't respect the emphasis on money.
And I just and then I think also personally becoming a little baby developing alcoholic, it was like really inconvenient to consider what sin is and to.
Have this judgmental God that was going to send me to this like underworld with fire if I didn't behave.
And so I was afraid of all of that.
It was just too much.
And so by the time I got sober, I had very I found a lot of comfort in being, you know, quote unquote, atheist.
But now that I've read the big book, I know I was agnostic and I was angry.
You came in with that same thing I did.
I was.
Relatively agnostic when I came in.
In fact, I really resented the fact that God was in the steps.
I thought, oh, no, here we go again.
People are going to try and show whatever religious beliefs they have down my throat.
And fortunately, I stuck around long enough and read the literature, especially we agnostic, to know that that wasn't the case.
Sounds like that happened for you, too.
Yeah, I definitely did.
And that's one of the cool things I've experienced in sobriety.
Like wanting to grow my spiritual life is a gift of this program.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I've done it in all kinds of weird ways, like just exploring my spirituality.
I've like I've been to stay in an ashram, and I did a road trip with my first sponsor.
I got fired in sobriety, and she got breast cancer.
And we both were kind of like, and it was a blessing, like I was let go, but it was fun to call it getting fired.
And so we were like, what do we do?
with our lives. Like she was about to have to start cancer treatment. And so I hopped in the
car, picked her up and we drove across the Southwest going to like, we went to Richard
Rohr's monastery in New Mexico. And we went to Sedona and got readings and did a, uh, like a
ceremony and with a shaman. And we just did all these spiritual things wanting to, we climbed the
grand Canyon and, you know, we just, we had an amazing time and we went to meetings along the
way. We interviewed people about their spiritual experience and like, because of the program and
like the people in my life that have, have wanted to grow large spiritual lives. Like I really got
to have a true sense of a higher power in my life and open that world to myself where when it was
closed off and I needed to be atheist and I needed to be against it, like I was missing so much
goodness. And so it's been really,
that's like probably one of the most fun parts of being sober is like tapping into that spirit.
That's a very well-intentioned way of going about it too. I I've known people who've done things
like silent retreats and going off to India and going to mountaintops and that kind of thing. But
the way you described it, it sounds like it just came naturally. And maybe as a result of that
innate spirituality that you already had seeking out validation of itself by what, what you did,
where you went, who you talked to and what you did.
That's a really, really kind of neat spiritual gift. And sounds to me like it's something that
can be passed on to others. What do you find yourself doing within AA these days to, to further
your own spirituality?
That's a big question. Cause there's a lot, but you know, it ebbs and flows. Like AA has been
amazing in raising me and like, because we share in meetings and because we talk openly about
ourselves.
Mm-hmm.
and our spiritual path, like, that gave me a lot of courage and confidence to go out and do
things that, like, without a God of my understanding, my ego would have gotten in
the way of. And so I ran into my husband, actually, in an AA meeting. Yeah, and years ago,
and he and I both play guitar, and we started volunteering at a detox, playing guitar,
and I wanted to get over stage fright. And so we would share the program, and we would talk
about sobriety and stick within, you know, the principles and the steps, and then we'd play music.
And so that was something, that was like, aside from sponsoring, that was a really
amazing experience.
Amazing experience. And I feel like being open to those kind of things has led me
more into who I am than anything else.
Yeah, and music is such a transcendental experience that it has its own spiritual aspects
that we don't find anywhere else. I go to some meetings with some people who are very involved
in music, and they always seem to, whenever they talk about their music,
it's almost like they're talking about their spirituality. And in a way, I guess they really
are. Yeah. So you met your husband in sobriety in AA? Well, I think that's the other thing I was
thinking about when you talk about spirituality is sort of that consciousness and synchronicity
that starts to unfold as you tap in. Right, uh-huh. And, you know, when I was 30 and I got
sober, I was so worried about relationships, and was I going to find one and all of that. And when
I finally learned to sing, I was like, I'm going to find one. And I was like, I'm going to find one.
And I was like, I'm going to surrender it and find a way to be content and present with what I
actually had. I was sitting in Tuesday night, and I look up, and there's this guy I recognized from
high school. And we reconnected, and we had seen each other in the periphery for years, like,
very randomly. But, you know, our lives had gone way different ways. And so when we ran into each
other, it was a quick...
sort of spark and reconnection. But we found a lot in common, aside from just the fact that we
were in recovery. And so, yeah. I mean, I didn't know at the time I was going to marry him, but
I am now.
How long were you together before you finally tied the knot?
Well, we had an interesting thing because of the program and because he was serious about,
you know, his sobriety. When I met him, he had a year, and I had three, I think.
So he was in the process of getting divorced and wanted a friendship first. And I had never
had that in a relationship where a true foundation was built. And so we put God first. We put our
friendship first. And, like, we really did become good friends and talk all the time. And, like,
we did know we loved each other. But after getting divorced and what he had been through, you know,
going slow was super important.
And for me, like, in hindsight, I needed to learn to trust a man, really, and, like, to build a
friendship. And so we were friends for about two years before we started dating. And that was hard.
Yeah, I'll bet.
It was very hard sometimes. And sometimes we took months of not talking and, you know,
it would get confusing. But at the end of the day, like, trusting God with that path and how that
should look, it ended up that...
But we got married a couple months ago. So...
You did?
Yeah.
I didn't realize that whenever it was Sue told me about you. And that is such a cool thing. And
what's so cool about it is that you built such a beautifully spiritual foundation on which to
base your marriage. I mean, being friends first is huge.
Yeah.
This kind of story of my wife and I, we've been married going on 36 years now. And we were friends
first. And...
Yeah.
And it's...
It's the first time I'd ever been friends with a woman. And because we were friends first,
we got to like each other for other reasons.
Yeah.
So it's extraordinary that your path in that way has worked out so well. Congratulations.
Well, thank you.
Let me ask you this. If you had... Now that you know what you know about... And it may still be
evolving for you. But what would you tell other couples that are in recovery, let's say in AA
together, how to manage their program and a...
Yeah.
...reasonably decent relationship?
I think what I'm learning is that it takes a village. And if I didn't have the fellowship
around me, and if John didn't have the fellowship around him, I don't know what chance we would
have. I'm so grateful for the women that are in my life that are willing to take calls and help me
grow in that way. And to understand what's true. And to understand what's wrong. And to understand
what's true. And to understand what's wrong. And to understand what's wrong. And to understand what's
just a normal part of a relationship. Because I didn't see that or experience that growing up. So
it's like new territory for me and for him. And so I think it's just important. And one of the
things that we agreed to do is put God first. And then bring God in, in those moments where
you ask yourself, am I going to really do this forever? You need God in those moments.
And so that's been beautiful for us. I think also, if you have a...
If you have a tendency towards perfection, a relationship will help you outgrow that pretty
quickly. Because it just can't look perfect. And there are ugly parts to it. And there are defects.
And as long as you're both willing to do the work and own your part, so far, so good. But
it's not without its challenges. I mean, you have two alcoholics that come from alcoholic families.
And we love each other. And stronger than that is our commitment to our sobriety and to the
relationship. So...
Yeah, that's beautiful. And that's the kind of commitment that ends up with good
long-term relationships. And...
Thanks.
That, you know, that's the way I look at it. Now, do you and he do anything
together with your programs, like Chapter 9 meetings and that kind of thing?
We go occasionally to Chapter 9. We went to a meeting this morning together.
And we share what's going on with us. On our honeymoon, there weren't any meetings
where we were, and I needed one. So it was really convenient. My husband's an alcoholic,
and I said...
Why don't we say the Lord's Prayer, and then you give us a topic, you know? And
so we had a meeting in the ocean. It was really nice. And so that kind of stuff is really cool.
But if we're both off the wagon on the same day emotionally, like, that can suck.
When two people are in the program together,
you've got an additional language that you can talk in a way that both parties hopefully
understand. And then being musicians on top of that, I would assume that you both are able to
experience that kind of...
...bond that only occurs through music.
We both have that. We're both in sales, like, for our main jobs and things. So
we do have a lot of common ground to work with. But if the foundation, which is for us, God,
you know, if we get unconscious with that, we're quick to be reminded.
Well, I can tell by your beaming face and that smile that you're grateful. I mean,
I can't think of another word that it just comes very much in your...
...countenance there. And I really admire that. And I think it's a really exceptional
thing to be able to be married, be in love, be in a program, doing all the things that you're doing.
Is there anything else you would like to kind of go on record saying to
any of the AA's around the world who might listen to this?
I think the theme of this year for me in sobriety has been don't quit before the miracle.
For me, my life this year truly became more than I could imagine.
And I have an amazing career. I have a husband and stepkids. I play in a band. I go to meetings.
I have an incredible fellowship. My spiritual life has grown and not without pain. I just
really want to be clear about that. It's not perfect. But like, the life that I have today
is so unbelievable. And I thought I was the exception.
enough. And I thought that it would work for you, but not me. And so you eventually get your answers
and you just have to put, stick with the winners, you know, have a good fellowship around you and
really do, do the deal as prescribed and, and just be patient because it's hard to be patient
and talk to people in the middle of, you know, that transition and things will show, you will
see, you will have your own evidence someday that this was worth it. What a beautiful sentiment to
end on, Courtney. You're a remarkable woman. And I'm glad I had the chance to do this interview
with you. As I tell all my guests, I love you and I admire and respect your program and your
sobriety. I want to thank you so much for doing this today. Just the fact that you were willing
to go out on the limb and let me know a little bit more about you, especially since we didn't
really know each other. I feel like I know you so much better and I hope we'll have a chance to
see you again. Thank you.
Me too. Thank you so much for asking me. It's a really big gift. So thank you.
Well, my friends, that's a wrap for today's episode of AA Recovery Interviews. Thank you
for tuning in. If you enjoyed AA Recovery Interviews, will you please tell others how
to listen to it? It's another helping hand we can all extend to alcoholics everywhere.
If you want to contact me directly with any comments, questions, or suggestions,
simply email howard at aarecoveryinterviews.com.
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is on the way, so keep coming back. It'll be here soon.
Thank you so much for tuning in. I'll see you next time.