His Early Drinking Was an Adorable Little Sippy Sip — Dan D.

Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic, sober since January 1st, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where AA members share their extraordinary stories of experience, strength, and hope.
Today, the 41st interview in this podcast series features a good friend from my earliest days of sobriety, Dan D.
When I showed up in AA, Dan already had a couple years sober and was only 20 years old.
But his qualification for AA was gleaned from a difficult childhood that included divorced parents at age 3,
after which a rageful alcoholic became Dan's stepfather at age 6.
From a childhood rife with family dysfunction,
fear, and uncertainty, Dan emerged into adolescence,
where he found alcohol and drugs to soothe the inner turmoil and emotional pain.
Left largely unchecked by his disarrayed family, Dan was free to run the streets as a teenager,
while his budding alcoholism and drug addiction were paving the way to certain ruin.
By the time he was an older teen, cocaine had taken over Dan's life,
and he started stealing from his employer and robbing houses to support his habit.
At 18, he stepped up to the stage of AA Recovery Interviews,
and went over the line by robbing his parents' home for the umpteenth time down to the carpet.
Their ultimatum to Dan was either go into treatment or be booted out onto the street.
He spent 90 days in treatment, followed by an intensive AA program,
in which he was guided by a thorough sponsor and several old-timers
into service-oriented sobriety that continues to this day.
But Dan's story became truly extraordinary in 1994,
when, with eight years in the AA,
he now managed to stay sober after being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.
MS is an incurable and disabling disease that attacks the brain, spinal cord,
and the entire central nervous system.
After eight years of sobriety, Dan's prospects with MS were those of certain pain,
constant struggle, and debilitation of his entire body.
But he has endured MS by utilizing the spiritual tools of the program to battle that chronic disease.
What amazes me most about Dan is that he is now able to live his life to the fullest.
He is now able to live his life to the fullest. He is able to live his life to the fullest. He is able to live his life to the fullest. He is able to live his life to the fullest.
What amazes me most about Dan is that he is now able to live his life to the fullest. He is able to live his life to the fullest.
What amazes me most about Dan is that he is now able to live his life to the fullest. He is able to live his life to the fullest. He is able to live his life to the fullest.
And I believe this, the vision of how he has taken his experience fighting MS
and put it into practical use in his AA program.
Residing in the center of AA, as Dan calls it,
his service-work with newcomers and as a sponsor
is incredibly inspiring to anyone seeking sobriety.
I'll let Dan tell you the rest of the story.
I'm confident you'll come away with a new perspective of experience, strength and hope
told from Dan's unique and inimitable point of view.
So, listen closely, from the very beginning, to the first six years of his life,
many gifts over the next hour, served up by my friend and AA brother, Dan D.
I'm Dan D. I'm an alcoholic.
Thanks for identifying. I always do that, Dan, just to make this sound a little bit more like
a meeting. Whenever it was I started to put this thing together, you were one of the guys I had in
mind that I wanted to interview somewhere along the way. And I'm sorry it's taken us this long
to get it together. But, you know, the good interviews just go on and on and on on this
podcast. And so I want to really thank you for doing this today.
Absolutely.
So the first thing I'd like to know, Dan, is how are you feeling today?
Today has been decent. Yeah, I'm feeling OK. Family's good. Kids are good. Yeah.
My health is a bit challenging of late, but yeah, just taking a day at a time.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was asking about, because I know that your alcoholism has informed
certain parts of your life, but you've been sober a long time now, right? What, about 35 years?
Correct.
What's your surprise?
Friday day?
Two seventeen eighty six.
The reason I was asking about how you're feeling is because, you know, we've got this deadly
disease called alcoholism that we have arrested. But you and other people in the program, but
you're one of one of the closest to me that I know has another major health challenge going on
in addition to staying sober and one that I believe needs to be talked about and acknowledged.
And that's why I always ask you how you're feeling.
How long were you in the program when you first got diagnosed?
June 9th of 94, I was diagnosed, so I guess eight years.
And you were diagnosed with?
Multiple sclerosis. It's just over the years it's gotten more challenging.
Yeah.
And pretty, pretty rough now.
I used to see you when I first came in. I saw you running around. You were just this young guy that was on fire, it looked like, with the program.
So you were sober, you said, eight years before the MS was diagnosed.
What was your initial feeling whenever you heard that?
Wow. That, just how am I going to live with this, was the same year we got married, diagnosed June of 94.
We got married September of 94.
Wow.
So I've been sober a while and I was plenty submerged in recovery.
You know, I called my sponsor and I started calling other people and I just leaned into the program.
But I was pretty fearful, just not knowing what it's going to entail.
How bad will it get?
Does God have my back? Has he got me here?
You know, I mean, I know he got me here, but does he have me here?
Yeah.
So I was all over the map.
I wonder about that too.
And it's like when people come into the program, they get some spirituality.
Is it conditional on the way they're feeling at that time?
Or do they get the spirituality that gives them the assurance that they'll be able to face future things?
What kind of spiritual condition were you in when you first got your diagnosis?
You know, decent.
I'd worked the steps several times by that time.
Yeah.
I'd been to, you know, I went to Holy Name Retreat like three or four a year.
Yeah.
But I'd been to a boatload of retreats.
I'd taken other people through the steps.
So I was pretty steeped in spirituality.
I was pretty comfortable, but it's still kind of, what?
You know, it's incurable.
It's debilitating.
It can be crippling.
I mean, it's pretty heavy diagnosis.
So even with a whole lot of faith, I had some fear out.
Yeah.
How did you process it at that time?
Just taking it in 24-hour chunks.
You know, it really always got down to, God's got me this far.
You know, surely everything's going to be okay in the end.
So if it's not okay, it's not the end.
You know, I clung on to funny little sayings here and there.
But really, I just leaned into the program, the people that care about me, including my now wife.
Yeah.
Whenever that happened, do you recall any gratitude for having gotten sober and worked the steps that you had the tools to then address yet another disease?
100%.
I won't say that I got it in real time, Howard.
I would say looking back five years after that or when we've had our second child, you know, as life went on and certainly my condition as I stayed in the open.
Yeah.
As I stated in the opening, it's gotten worse over the late.
I'm in a wheelchair.
I'm, you know, really challenging now.
But yes, absolutely.
I've had to at some point had some rough nights, Howard, where I wake up and say, okay, well, it's just me and God or it's just me.
You know, so I mean, he has to be in the equation.
So yeah, looking back was a lot easier.
I would not say in real time.
I just synced up spiritually, got five bars on my G drive and said, let's do this.
It wasn't like that.
Yeah, I get that.
Well, so whenever that was going on, were you the only guy that you knew who had not just MS, but another disease that they were living with that other members in the program knew about?
So upon my first diagnosis, I didn't really know.
I didn't really know of my MS.
I didn't really know many people in the program with other illnesses like that.
But what happens is your phone starts ringing.
Hey, I got some guy that has muscular dystrophy or had pancreatic cancer.
You know, phone starts ringing with other people who have other chronic illnesses, things like that.
And while I don't have cancer, you know, John, another guy that you know.
Yeah.
I didn't have cancer.
He didn't have MS.
But we got together and talked about just really chunky crap that normally you don't have anywhere to go to.
So, yeah, things presented themselves through the fellowship that allowed us all to grow together.
So and I still get, hey, Dan, I got a guy that's his sponsor.
His wife was just diagnosed.
And would you be OK if I give her your name?
She lives in California.
So somebody you'll never meet.
Right.
That's it.
That's the spouse of it.
So, of course, this is where the fellowship is powerful and you share your experience, you know, strength and hope.
Yeah.
And that's a great sentiment.
In fact, one of the most precious times in my sobriety has been when you and I and a handful of other men were going over and having the meetings at John's house when he was on his literally on his deathbed.
And it was such a it was such a moving opportunity for us to be able to be there together and holding the meeting.
And, of course, what's interesting about it, Dan, is that I interviewed Diane early on in this series and got to hear about what it was like for her when we were doing that for John.
And he was a beautiful man and one who I learned a lot from.
And you and I became much closer at that time, too.
And I'm always I'm always really, really grateful for that.
As am I. As he was getting closer and closer to passing.
Right.
I would meet him more and more. We would go to Starbucks. Right.
And he would, you know, he would bitch, you know, Diane's being negative.
I need positive people around me.
You know, she thinks she thinks I'm going to die.
I'm like, John, you are.
She has the right to basically.
Yeah.
When you get called to the it's time to say something to him in that moment.
I needed to comfort him to comfort her.
You're going, you know, she has the right.
So it gets pretty intense when you talk about this stuff.
But it does. I'll bet it does.
Well, and of course, you and I both know these days another gentleman who actually did an interview early on in this series, our good friend Alex.
And he has he's lived with it about as long as you have.
But he's considerably older.
But every time I talk to him, I'm always inspired because it's like one of the last things he wants to do is focus on himself.
And I remember that that John was very much that way, that you'd go in and you want to say, how are you doing?
He says, no, how are you doing?
Let's talk about you and talk about being selfless.
I see you that way.
I see you that way, too.
You're you're one of those guys who's more interested in what's going on with other people than letting them know what's going on with you.
That's amazing.
So you got to AA.
I know you were just a child, relatively speaking, when you first got to AA.
What was going on in your life when you were growing up that predicted the need for AA somewhere down the line?
What was what was early what was early life like in Dandy?
What did you experience?
Of course.
So youngest of five and my real father died when I was 10 and I got sober.
I was 18.
Wow.
So my mom had gotten remarried to another alcoholic.
My dad died of alcoholism.
He did.
Says it on his death certificate.
Doesn't say cirrhosis or heart alcoholism.
That's unusual, isn't it?
Correct.
So he died.
He died when I was 10.
My mom got remarried to another drunk and his addiction was I mean, his abuse.
You know, it was an interesting time growing up in an alcoholic home, just the mayhem.
And so, you know, just running the streets.
And I mean, I just got in trouble early.
Yeah.
At 12, 13, 14.
You know, and so by the time I was 18, Howard, I was already in trouble.
You know, I wasn't even legal to drink yet.
I'm already infested with this disease.
So I don't blame it on the upbringing of the family.
But, you know, it is hereditary.
My real dad died of it.
So there's a I don't know if there's a theory.
Maybe it's just a belief that people express from time to time that I've heard that the reason there are often so many generations of alcoholism and just one right after another is the succeeding generation.
You know, the second generation tries to clean up the past of the preceding generation and tries to be different from and not as bad as the previous generation.
And in the process of trying to do that, they fall right back into the same some of the same behavior.
Could you speak to that a little bit?
Obviously, you were seeing a lot of weird stuff when you were growing up.
Do you remember as a child ever saying to yourself, man, that's not going to be me when I get older?
My real father.
I was divorced when I was like three.
And then he died when I was 10.
So they weren't living together.
I barely remember my dad.
I see.
They said he was a good man.
He just drank too much.
He couldn't not drink.
And so I don't remember much of that.
My stepfather was pretty much a raging alcoholic.
I mean, when he drank, it just got crazy in the house.
I mean, shotgun blast.
I mean, it was it was pretty intense around the house.
So, yeah.
Yes.
I did not want to.
I saw the dis ease part of this disease living right in my house with my stepfather and how he treated my mom and all of us when he was drunk.
So, yes, I got a front row seat of what not.
But I'm already sober by at 18.
So, well, I don't want to do that.
Well, I don't.
You know, I would say it would be through my stepdad, not from a dad.
Yeah.
So how old were you when your mom remarried or when your stepdad came into the picture?
I think six.
Seventy three.
I was born in 67.
Yes.
Six years old.
Okay.
So he comes into your life.
Things start to get progressively worse for you.
And so the next 12 years you're under his roof.
Correct.
Wow.
Must have been a tumultuous time in your family.
Yeah.
But they let me roam.
I was running the streets.
I'd be gone for two or three days without.
I mean, you know you're in trouble when you run away from home and they don't look for
you.
Yeah.
You just show up.
In other words, there was no oversight.
There was no borders, no anything.
So that's why I got in trouble so young.
I just I went zero to a thousand miles an hour.
Just, you know, hit my addiction at a young age.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, it's a blessing, but yeah.
I didn't think so.
Where were you chronologically amongst your siblings?
Youngest of five.
You're the youngest of five.
So did you get any ideas on how to live life or how to survive in this crazy home you were
in from your older siblings?
Or was it all self taught?
You know, always again, not in real time, but later you pick up on stuff.
But I'll say this.
And this will give you a feeling for the addiction.
The addiction, my stepfather's disease, live in our house.
Yeah.
When you turned 18 and some of them 17, you're out.
Didn't matter if you went to college or just moved out on your own.
In other words, nobody stuck around.
It was 17 and out, 18 and out.
Nobody came back.
You know, some kid graduated from college and didn't get a job immediately and they moved back.
No.
It was run.
Was the spacing between you and your next older sibling, how many years were you alone in that house where everybody else was out?
The youngest, the closest to me, Howard, was about two years.
He went to college.
And so I was there really about two years where it was just me, my mom and my stepdad.
And that's 16 to 18, which is when it got the worst for me.
But by that time.
You were already starting to run the streets.
Selling drugs.
Got kicked out of high school.
Yeah.
So how old were you when you started acting out and started running the streets figuratively and literally?
Yes.
I'll give you from 12 to 18.
I can do it pretty quick.
Yeah.
Started drinking at 12.
Uh-huh.
I just started with alcohol, a little sippy sip.
You know, it was adorable.
Hey, I'll have another one of those.
And it did not end up.
Adorable when I was 18.
But anyway, started with a little bit of alcohol and then a lot of alcohol.
Yeah.
And then I think what got me, Howard, is, uh, well, alcohol was always there.
It was my sweetheart, you know, age 13, 14.
But I added stuff.
Our book talks about switching.
You know, we switched drugs or switched, but I didn't switch.
I added.
So I kept alcohol.
I mean, it started on alcohol.
And then I kept drinking more and more and more.
Right.
And then I added marijuana.
I didn't I didn't switch to marijuana.
So my alcohol still went up and my my my weed went up.
And then after three months of six months of that, I added Quaaludes and Mandrakes and,
you know, speed.
I mean, I kept going on and on, adding stuff while still smoking weed.
So that's not a winning formula.
You know.
Yeah.
By the time I was 16.
I would say I started doing heavier cocaine in particular.
I know this is Alcoholics Anonymous, but I started doing cocaine alcoholically.
I'll say it that way.
That really expedited stuff as well.
I mean, foot went down on the speedometer and it just went a million miles an hour.
And that really got me to my finish line quicker.
I'll bet.
Well, I've heard that from a number of my guests who had the cocaine in their lives as well.
Now, will you just.
Snorting cocaine or were you doing anything with pre-basing or crack?
No crack, smoking it and snorting.
OK.
You were never an IV drug user.
Correct.
I imagine it was next, but correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you're 16 years old and you're starting to do cocaine.
Where does a 16 year old find the money to be able to afford a daily cocaine habit?
So I was working for a cleaners.
I started.
Uh, selling to employees and, and then I would drive the truck and drop it off to certain locations.
And so I was making basically $42 a day.
Um, I may, I don't remember this was 38 years ago.
I was third 16, but anyway, uh, I would make, you know, 50 bucks a day.
Well, I had a $300 a day coke habit.
So.
Plus the weed.
Plus the alcohol, all the other things.
So I basically started stealing, start stealing from the cleaners, little by little, just
chipping, you know, 60, 81, 20, whatever.
And then.
I started stealing from my parents, house, little by little taken, whatever it could.
And then I started fricking Robin houses, you know, literally.
Kicking into, you know, I mean, I had friends with me that would do it, but I'm not talking
armed robbery.
I just mean.
uh so i mean what do you do when you have a 300 a day drug habit and you make 50 bucks
you either quit or you start stealing shit yeah yeah were you found out by your folks it sounds
like they you started with them and then moved on to stealing from others uh did they find out
or did they ever confront you with that well february 1st of 86 february 2nd sometime around
then i came home one day and i took basically everything out of my parents house i just
backed up a truck and took them to the carpet i mean my dealer had a place by the flea market
that he would take everything so i took you know vh well they weren't they were beta max
remember betama yeah anyway i would take videos and like the end table there's nothing he wouldn't
take
you
her drug. So I cleaned my parents out. So I was, I was literally living on the streets for two
weeks because I thought they were going to shoot me. And so that's when I started, I would go over
to a friend's house and they'd let me in. All of a sudden I'd unlock a window and then go back,
you know, the next morning and have their maid make me a sandwich while I went upstairs and
stole from their parents. I mean, it was, it was pretty intense.
Yeah. Yeah. Sounds like it. I mean, kind of lends itself to something. I don't know. I don't know
that I've ever really discussed with you. And that is who are these running buddies you had at the
time? Who were your partners in crime? Were you part of a little gang of guys or were you working
mostly on your own? I mean, I'm not in touch with any of them anymore. I imagine some of them.
Sure. I can imagine why. Outgrew it and became CEOs and MDs. And I mean,
I'm sure that happens.
Yeah. I'm sure there's a couple of them in jail, you know, too. I don't know. But I took the
program serious when it said distance yourself from your buddies that, you know, you're using
buddies. So I took that serious. Yeah. Now, did your stepfather at this time,
did he ever attempt to get sober? It did. He got sober March 9th of 83. So he was sober those last
three.
Oh, wow. Okay. Still pretty raging, you know, pretty crazy in the house, but he was sober.
Let me ask you how that informed your understanding of AA to be with somebody
who goes from being the way they are drinking to going into AA, but it still seems like they're
just the same, even though they're going to AA. How did that make you feel about the AA program?
I don't recall really how it made me feel. I just knew that's not what I wanted.
I didn't want to end up like that, dry drunk or whatever you want to call it. But I did appreciate
the fellowship part of it. He always had people around. I mean, he was a good man. He was just
a raging alcohol. So he always had people, Hey, this is so-and-so they're going to be here for
Thanksgiving. You know, he always had people over and stuff like that. So I did appreciate the
fellowship. I went to these clubs, Howard. I mean, I grew up in AA. I went to Alateen,
Alatot. My goodness. He was in the, forget the name of the place out in Katy by my stepfather
when he got sober in 83. And I went to the club back in the day. And so, yeah, I kind of grew up
in AA. And looking back, can you point to anything that you heard or learned as a tot or a teen
that influenced you to either getting into the program sooner or later?
I went to spend the treatment center. Correct. February 16th of 86. I walked home that day.
I thought they were going to shoot me because I'd stolen everything out of their house.
Anyway, uh, they said, you got two choices. You can keep walking because we've had enough of your
ass or you can go to treatment. It's set up for you to go to treatment. I said, I'll take door
number two. So I've been sober ever since. So getting in treatment, being on a young people's
unit, uh, I would say I was drawn to that.
And then getting, you know, I spent 60 days in a 28 day program. So getting out and doing after
care and starting retreats immediately, uh, the fellowship kicked in really early for me. And I
took it very serious. So I learned more. I just needed a home. I needed a, you know, I needed a
home base and I was just drawn to recovery, Howard. Yeah. So when you were new in AA,
there were still a bunch of old timers running around at that time. Some of the, some of the
legends of Houston AA, did you find you were hanging with the young people more than the old
people? So, yes, we were, you know, got out. It was really, oh, it was the young people militia
back then. I mean, you know, you got in young and, uh, you just stayed at it, you know? So
both, I would say I went to the 10 o'clock.
Meeting at night, we'd started going down to the men's center to see Francis Wise meeting on
Sunday nights. And he would, he ended up being my sponsor some years later before he died November
of 92. But, uh, Francis was my sponsor when he died, Francis Y. So, uh, Frenchie, um, George P.
I don't know if you know George P. So I always respected the senior guys. Then I got introduced
to all of them. And I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was, I was,
and all that. So I wouldn't say I hung around him as much. I would draw from them,
their wisdom and their experience in recovery. And then ultimately got Francis to sponsor me.
He was 40 years older than me, but, uh, I would say it's a blend of the two.
When you were 18 coming into AA, I've actually sponsored guys who got sober even earlier than
that, you know, 14, 15 years old. And one of the things they say,
they never had the opportunity to do what so many people had done that fueled their alcoholism and
drug addiction. Did you ever give that much thought about things that maybe you missed as a
later teenager or early 20 something that everybody else seemed to get to do?
The one glaring thing, Howard, in this capacity that jumped out,
college, I blew off college. I just can't believe I've been able to make a good living for myself.
And my family, obviously I met a girl, got married and, you know, in 88, I met my bride now
and married 94, like I told you earlier, but didn't go to college. I have zero college credit
hours. So I would say because of my addiction and then I university of AA, I've just joined y'all,
you know, and leaned into the program. But I do wish that I went the traditional route
in some sort of, you know, the college.
But God's got my back. I mean, I ended up working around it and making a good living for myself.
But I would say that's the one blind spot that caught up.
Yeah. And I know, I know some other guys in the program, you and I both do, who
skipped the college pathway and just went straight into business or doing other things. And
a lot of those guys are still sober today. And the wisdom that they bring to the program and
to their sponsors and to meetings absolutely belies the fact that they don't have a college
education. And yet the flip side of that is those fast talking know-it-alls who come in with
the fancy degrees and they can't seem to stay sober. Of course, you know, we've got plenty
of smart people from, you know, who went, got college degrees, who have terrific recovery that
serves them well. At the time that you had the opportunity to go to college, was it suggested?
Did your sponsor or other people that you were hanging around who maybe were in college at the
time?
Any of them suggest to you? Did you ever seriously consider it?
No, never considered it. Just blew it off.
Yeah. So what were meetings like for you in the early days? Did you enjoy going to meetings?
Absolutely. So it depends on which, you know, I started doing a lot of men's meetings.
Oh, yeah.
Probably five years into my recovery, I started doing quite a bit of men's meetings.
We would go out to Deer Park, all over the place in Pasadena,
so we'd hit meetings all over the place. And then doing the men's meetings was excellent,
Howard, because, you know, there was big book studies, there were step studies,
you know, you couldn't share. One of the older ministry, if you hadn't worked the steps,
you couldn't share, if you remember. I remember that, yeah.
So they'll call on you and, you know, you're on step three and it's a four-step meeting,
they will cut you off if you hadn't done, you know, well, this is what I'm gonna do.
And, you know, so, you know.
Yeah.
Okay.
yeah, you learn that these men are serious about their recovery because it's a serious addiction.
So I would say a blend of the two going men's meetings and also hanging around some of the
younger folks, you know, I needed a blend of the two, but it was, I did enjoy that. Obviously
getting sponsees and learn how to sponsor others. And then, um, yeah, I was diagnosed with MS not
long after that I got married. So other experiences just added value to my life
and therefore experience so that I can reach still younger and older people.
That's important for the women or even some of the men who are listening to these podcasts.
Could you explain what the attraction or importance of men's meetings is to you in
the course of your recovery versus let's say a mixed meeting?
Well, of course. So obviously the,
in the world of COVID, I'm not getting out as much now. So this is not a now feeling, but
you just get to talk about, I don't know. It seems like everybody's more honest,
less ego. You don't have to worry about this girl. Here's that, or, you know, you just lay it out
there. Um, so I think it's that, I think it's just the comfort level of not having a smaller ego,
which I'm just another,
man in the boat. Let's do, you know, my arms are tired of paddling. I hand it to the next man. So
the camaraderie, the fellowship, uh, and just the ability to be gutless. And plus that you see one
guy just, Hey man, I just want y'all to know that I was just diagnosed with so-and-so I'm having a
really hard time. And, you know, you might get emotional or something and I'll get, well, there
was no cell phones back when I got sober, but you'll start getting, you know, later,
on in recovery, you start getting texts and, Hey man, why don't you call that? And so there's just
so many opportunities for growth, even through people's pain. Yeah. Even today that, uh, that's
why I love the fellowship so much. Yeah. You and I both, I believe that it's so important to have
that connection with others and men's meetings allow for a type of sharing that might be a little
bit more reserved in a mixed meeting, but that's why I try and do a mixture of men's meetings,
um, and mixed meetings as well. Right. So when you were going through your steps for the first
time, you got yourself a sponsor when you first came in. Correct. How long did it take for you to
work through the 12 steps? We had to work through four in treatment. So within 60 days, I finished
the first three in a row, my fourth. Well, was it an AA based fourth step or was it one of these
treatment center massaged fourth steps with 150 yes, no, check the box.
Question. No, it was double a good to the core right out of the book. My sponsor, I had to back
up and do one, two, three, you know, with him, but we worked all 12 steps right from the book. I mean,
especially my first month. So probably nine months, it took me to work all 12. Did he get
you on top of sponsoring other men when you were done? A hundred percent working with others. And
so once you, you know, got to give it a way to keep it right. It's just, that's what you do.
You pass the baton.
So every sponsor I've had, well, every time I've worked the steps, that's the deal. You come in,
come all the way in, sit all the way down, work the steps and then reach out to the new,
either the new guy or, you know, I've had it all, all kinds of ways. People have come back in after
going back out. But yes, it's sponsoring other men over the years has been very rewarding.
We'll be right back.
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And we're back.
I know a number of the men that you sponsor, and I've had some of them on the show, and
you can tell the quality of a man's sobriety by the quality of his sponsee's sobriety. And
I've noticed that about you a lot over the years. You're a high quality sobriety,
kind of guy.
Appreciate that.
Now, between the years of 86 and let's say 94, when you got the MS diagnosis, had you
experienced any major upheavals or losses? You mentioned getting married. Of course,
that's a good thing. That's a gift type thing. But before you got to the MS, did you encounter
anything that shook your program up or sent you spinning out towards the edge?
Um, really, no. I would say no to that. That was the first real
heavy event that happened post recovery. So about the time that you first got the diagnosis,
were you pretty much on the top of your game with regard to AA? How was your spiritual
condition going into that period?
Right. Yeah. You don't ever want to say you're on top of your game, you know, but I was pretty
synced up with sponsees, hitting my meetings, doing my readings and prayer. So yeah, I was
spiritually fit, let's say.
Yeah.
And really connected. I mean, I called my sponsor. Well, I think I went to actually
the men's center when I was first diagnosed with MS. But yeah, I would say that.
How much in advance of going and actually having it diagnosed were the symptoms starting to show
up for you?
So symptoms are totally different today. Obviously, it's been 27 years, but
Sure.
I had vision problems. My hands were numb. Balance was getting bad. My legs were not as bad as they
are now. But vision was the biggest issue. I saw double. Part of my MS was a diagnosis called
diplopia, which was double vision. So basically, for a year, I couldn't drive. My wife took me.
Wow.
It was that year, 94. She took me to work. I mean, it was pretty intense, the workarounds and stuff.
But that went away. So 94 to 98, I had symptoms.
Mm-hmm.
And then from 98 to 08, it was pretty much dormant or asymptomatic.
Mm-hmm.
And then 2008, 9, 10, you know, it's gotten worse over the years.
Yeah.
And then I got in a wheelchair in 2016, I think. And that's where I'm at today.
Yeah. I've been going to meetings with you throughout that whole time. So I've had a
chance to see, as an outsider, the progression of that particular disease and the reprieve you
got in the middle of it, though. I mean, you said that there was a period where things were dormant.
Did you feel back to normal for a while?
Yeah, I would say that's a good way to say it, back to normal. I mean,
I knew I had it, but yet it wasn't showing up. And so I wasn't in denial. I just,
if it works, don't fix it or whatever. So I just went with life. We had a kid,
our first child in 2000, second child in 02. I remember asking our neurologist,
hey, can I have a baby? And he said, yeah, I can. And I said, yeah, I can. And he said, yeah,
I have kids. I mean, what are the chances of them getting this? Obviously, I didn't want that.
And they said, look, no, we can't. It can't be hereditary. My older sister has MS also,
my oldest sister. But they said, we can't tell you anymore that your kids will have it,
and they won't. So we just said, all right, God, let's have some kids. And if they have,
you know, we'll deal with that. And they turned out to be perfect.
So God's got my back. He does since day one. One of the things that Alex described when I had him
on the show was how he felt after seeing the doc and getting the actual diagnosis and how that
affected him. The day that you got your diagnosis, what was that like? It was just heavy. It was just
the not knowing how bad is it going to get? Is it going to be painful? How am I going to
stay sober through this? How am I going to stay married through this? What will I be able to do?
What won't I be able to do? So fear of the unknown is what really crept in, even though I was
had a relationship with a higher power that was strengthened over time. And I get that,
but the fear does creep in of the unknown, just not knowing how bad it might get and what's,
that going to look like. So I would say that. So you and I have heard over the years that
fear and faith can't, you know, exist in the same instance. And I'm a believer that you can have a
lot of faith. You can believe in God and know that God is taking care of you and has your back,
but still you're feeling pain. I think it's possible to feel both feelings at the same time
and times in my sobriety, especially before my two back operations, when I was in extraordinary pain,
I remember,
wondering why with all the AA and spirituality that I thought I had behind me, why am I still
having this pain? And someone reminded me, they said, you know, you're, you're a spiritual being
having a human experience. And part of the human experience is pain. You can be as spiritual as
you want, but as long as that part of you is true, I don't know that that made me feel any better.
I understand that. Yeah. They coexist for me too. Even still, you know, I've, I've lived years
on the corner of, you know, Faith Boulevard and Fear Avenue. I mean, right there on the corner.
And, uh, I try and not let it, the fear take me over.
Do you, given your specialized knowledge and experience with MS, do you find that men who
become your sponsees are attracted to you because of that? Or do you find that men who are facing
debilitating diseases other than alcoholism, do you seek them out? What does that mean?
Well, I'll take the first part of that first, the men that I sponsor, I would say it this way,
Howard, the men that I sponsor have appreciated the diversity of me. You know, I'm, my wife and
I've been together a long time. I'm raising kids. I'm submerged in corporate America. I've been
sober a long time. I got native Houstonian. I mean, I've got a lot of really quality relationships,
friends.
Uh, in recovery and outside. So, uh, I think most of the sponsees have appreciated my
experience, you know, and then you add incurable debilitating illness like MS and that's added
experience of maneuvering through life, just living with some really chunky stuff and still
being happy, still wanting to, you know, I always said, one of my sayings was if I died tomorrow,
I'd want to come back as me. And I still feel that way. You know, I'm not, not in love with
every chapter in the book of Dan, but, uh, it's a good book. And then the second part of that,
that was the sponsor part of the sponsees. Uh, absolutely. Howard, like Alex L I'm talking to
him at least two days a week. Now he's up in Michigan just to check on him. He has another
diagnosis, uh, on top of his MS.
And so, um, I do talk to people in recovery. I love talking to people in recovery with other
debilitating illnesses and how we jointly maneuver through life with them, even if they're not all
with MS. And that's a whole special grain of the fellowship. That's really unmatched. It's,
it's unbelievable. Yeah. Similar to the men's meeting stuff I was talking about
back earlier.
You just get, you're uniquely qualified to talk about some really tough stuff that, you know,
you get them, they get you. So I think both sides of your question is, is valid for me.
As I recall, you were involved at some point, maybe you still are with, uh, a non AA group is,
is, are you still involved with that, that support group? And what does that mean for you?
So I'm not involved.
I'm not involved in that anymore. I think for about five years, I would say I went to a chronic
illness support group and, um, it was excellent. Howard, there was about eight to nine people in
the group that we all had different stuff. I mean, I was the only alcoholic that also had another,
but we all had different stuff. We had MS, we had AL, I mean, we all, but they were chronic illnesses
and there was no, you know, it was, you had to be really chronic.
The way the lady, uh, vetted them that ran it anyway, it was outstanding. So, um, I could take
a lot of my fellowship stuff from AA and let it kind of creep into that group a little bit
as far as how we shared with each other. So I took my experience and strength and hope. I took
that into my support group, but I had to drop it when we started four years ago or so.
But, uh, it was outstanding. And what a gift to them, especially, I mean, to people who
don't have AA to be able to have the additional and added wisdom of somebody who's worked a,
uh, spiritual program of recovery to bring that kind of energy into that kind of group,
how meaningful that must've been to them. I think so. I certainly hope so, but.
Oh, I'm sure. Well, just the kind of guy you are. You're a loving, caring guy. And, uh, I remember
you mentioning along the way, Dan,
the importance of AA and staying sober to your marriage and your relationship, uh, with your
family, but in particular with your marriage, I've heard you talk over the years about the work
that you and your spouse have had that has really been good for you. And can you tell me what,
what affects AA has had on your marriage? Um, the benefits of working all the,
all the steps, having a relationship with a higher power, um, taking other people through the steps,
um, that has benefited me tremendously in my marriage.
In what ways?
Well, just being authentic, um, head of the household type, you know, be a leader, be just
trying to be a spiritual lead, you know, um, promoting prayer. So I would say, yeah, I would
say that the fellowship and all that kind of,
led me to, uh, I don't know, kind of strengthened our relationship with my wife. Now, over the years,
we've obviously, you know, been together that long. We ended up doing some therapy, which in my
mind was excellent. It wasn't like, we're in therapy. It was like, yep, we're investing in
our relationship, you know, so to dig it up, you know, the exhume the body and okay. Well, when I
said, you know, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that.
Yes. I really meant no 43% of the time. And so, uh, we've quite a bit of therapy over the years,
uh, which has been beneficial. It wasn't always fun. That was maybe another chapter I'm not in
love with, but certainly strengthened our relationship. The foundation, uh, it just
re tethered us so that we're sustainable for this, for the very reason I'm in now, which is
my MS is worse than it's ever been. And so, uh, I think that's, I think that's, I think that's
one of the things that I've learned over the years is that, you know, we're, we're, we're
all men and our relationship is strong.
That's good. And that's something that you're, you're blessed to have that kind of relationship.
And how about, how about with regard to your kids, AA and children, obviously you've been
sober. They've never seen you not sober. What is AA meant to your relationship with your
kids?
So obviously they know I don't drink. They know I go to meetings and we've had the
discussion with them about, by the way, you know, it's your father's an alcoholic and,
you know, just that you're susceptible to whatever the words are, you could have the gene and just
make sure that you're mindful of that and so forth. So arming them with just nowadays, they
find everything on the internet more than their parents. But, you know, sometimes they, not to
discredit my kids, but sometimes they don't hear anything we say, but they definitely see everything
we do. Right. So I think they just, they just, they just, they just, they just, they just, they just,
they just have known dad doesn't drink. Dad's in recovery. I always have these people that
come over that I meet. How do you know that guy? How do you know so and so? I mean, kind
of freaks them out probably. But yeah, I think they see the fellowship and the program through
me, through the quality of my relationships. So I think it's a net plus for them. And then
also having me never get drunk.
Yeah.
They never be off the grid since I, since they've known me. So I think it's been beneficial.
Yeah. It has in my life too. And I told my kids about all three of them, sat them down all
together when they were relatively young and explained it in terms, just like you said,
that they could understand it in a way to appreciate it. But seeing them become adults
and having to still make their own decisions about whether or not to engage in the kind of
behavior I did, you know, that's a, that's a whole nother thing. Right. So we're talking
about decades now. What, in addition to the struggles you've had with MS and certainly the
gifts that you've had with family and kids and, and career success, what have been some of the
other things that have really stuck out in the last couple of decades for you, or maybe most
recently where you've looked at it and said, this really shines the light on my AA program?
Oh, quite a bit of stuff. Having kids, you know, so 2010,
I ended up all the medications for my MS and it was just crazy. And so I ended up,
I went to my spot, drove to my sponsor's office. He owned a treatment center at the time and said,
Hey, I'm just going crazy. I don't think I've gone back out. I mean, I didn't do anything I
shouldn't do, but I was like, I'm on too many meds and it was just all over the map. And so
we decided that I would go to,
a treatment facility for relapse prevention. I don't know if you remember this, so 2010.
Yeah, I do.
So I ended up going to California for 41 days and for, I call it a spiritual makeover, but
I was just in trouble on all the meds and antispasticity and the pain. I mean, it was just,
I wasn't sleeping and all I did was sleep. And then, you know, that's my MS was starting. I told
you earlier, 2008 is when it started coming back. So,
eight, nine, 10 was just crazy, getting much worse. And, um, that's when, you know, I called
my own intervention and it was early enough. Thank goodness. So that's one event that sticks
out by far because people wrote me while I was up there. I'd worked the steps again.
Um, a wife went up there family week and that was interesting and, uh, stayed in touch with a few of
those.
Yeah.
Those people over the years. So that's one event kids obviously watching, like my daughter's
getting ready in three days to move to Austin, to go to university of Texas, which I'm excited.
That's great. Congratulations on that.
We went to Greece and Turkey together in 2015. I think it was right before I got in the wheelchair.
So, I mean, there's tons of events like that, but it's just life, just my life unfolding right in
front of me.
Yeah.
Even through the challenges there been many blessings along the way.
And one of my more recent guests has talked about living life out loud. Uh, seems to me,
you're that kind of guy too, huh?
Oh, I definitely live out loud my life out loud. Yes. That's a great statement. Um, I, I pride myself
on being transparent or just being raw. How are you Dan? How are you doing today? You know, how
much time do you have or.
Or, you know, I mean, just I'm going to be honest with them no matter what.
So I do. I like to be that way. I like it that God made me that way. So I agree.
Yeah, I get that. Have you ever faced situations where your sobriety has been an intimidation to younger or more new members?
I'm sure some of that happened along the way, Howard, but nothing that was uncomfortable or a workaround.
I mean, if God wanted me to work with somebody, he'd put me in position to, you know.
So I don't think that was really an impediment. It was the other way around.
I just other side of that when I was maybe two years sober or something, I'm driving down to the men's center to go into the sick room.
And there I am, 19 or 20 years old. And there's a guy in there, you know, 78 years old.
And he's been drinking his whole life. And I'm going to show him something about double.
I mean, it was kind of like, you know, I go there, my little tie and my it's like, what am I doing here?
But my sponsor told me to get down to the men's center and get in the sick room.
And I want you to smell the puke, you know, and know what that's like.
So I felt at times odd, like I really qualified to do this, but I just went.
They looked at me.
Like, what is this kid going to teach me about recovery?
But teaching them that when your sponsor tells you to do something, you do it.
That's the lesson.
If you had to frame something to a newcomer or somebody who is beyond having hope about a that would get the message across that you wanted to get across, what would you say?
I'm sure my all encompassing experience and you probably heard some of this.
It would be.
Hey, brother.
My.
My hope for you is that you come all the way in, you sit all the way down, you lean into us, be willing to work these steps by the warranty, because life's going to, you know, the hundred thousand mile.
I mean, it's you talk about buying the warranty, but I've often wondered what does that warranty have in it that that that makes it so important?
Well, right.
I mean, the warranty is God.
I offer myself.
The bill with me is knowing the material.
It's it's the third step getting on my knees, even when it was hard to get up from my knees.
I mean, it's just marinating in the book recovery and taking all those experiences to to market.
I call it taking it to life.
So when you're diagnosed with an incurable, you know, God's got my I think it's that just sharing my experience with others.
And plus, the fellowship means so much to me also, Howard.
Yeah.
But I would say that and just being authentic, being real, like you said earlier, living out loud.
I think people appreciate my honesty with where I'm at.
That's one of my current winning formula.
I've had many over the years.
But I think my my two biggest.
I had to come.
Up with Frank would be humility and gratitude.
Those two.
That's what I land on today.
Thirty five and some months sober.
Fifty three years old with multiple illnesses that want to kill me.
Alcoholism and MS.
But yet I can't walk anymore.
I mean, I've got a lot of issues that need tissues, but gratitude and humility.
And just it's the same leaning into the program.
Trusting y'all saying yes.
When you get asked to tell your story, you know, taking kids through the steps and then, you know, doing the step work myself.
I've I've done two ways where I've taken people through the steps and then worked it with them.
Basically, every both of us did a third.
Both of us did a fourth.
Both of the fifth.
So I am who you think I am.
You know, that's basically important to me.
That's a great way to think about it, too.
One of the guys who.
You sponsor, as a matter of fact, said something to me recently about the idea of co-sponsorship.
In other words, we become so close to our sponsors that that sponsor sponsor relationship becomes a two way, you know, and it's been that way from from me and my sponsor as well.
Have you found that with with men you've sponsored?
Absolutely.
So, yes.
Over the years, including now, one of the guys that I sponsor now.
I sponsored him.
For years when he got sober, ninety seven, I think it was.
And then we drifted for four or five years and then he came back to me about five years ago or maybe longer, like 2011, 12, something like that.
So we a couple of years ago from now, when when he had about 20 years, we worked the 12 steps again.
We both did it like I just told you, the two way where we both were.
We worked all 12.
I read my fourth step to do my fifth step with my sponsee.
And so it was intense.
So basically taking all that to market, like I said earlier, it's so beneficial.
You're so honest with each other.
And I was looking for a new spot.
It was time for me to switch gears.
I had a sponsor for 18 years.
He was fantastic.
But I just wanted something different.
So I said, look, let's.
Let's try out to one of my sponsees.
Would you be OK?
Would you be comfortable sponsoring me?
I know I've got 11 more years in your whatever, but let's try it for a year.
So we tried it for a year.
Just if it's uncomfortable, it doesn't feel right.
Or if you're not able to share, you feel like and no, it's been fantastic.
So Charlie D is my sponsee and my sponsor officially.
And it's in this in my case, it's worked out.
Yeah.
That's a that's a great relationship to have, too.
And when he mentioned that, I knew you guys were close.
But, you know, to me, that that puts the bow on top right there.
That's the icing on the cake.
Being able to have that relationship that truly is.
It kind of transcends the sponsor sponsee relationship and takes it to a whole nother level, doesn't it?
I agree completely.
Well, I usually like to leave a minute or two at the end for anything that you would just like to say extemporaneously to the world of alcoholism.
You know, I'm not a big fan of alcoholics, any number of whom might listen to this.
I would say this most of what I suffer from today, as far as character defects or just flaw, you know, whatever, most of what I suffer from today is what I cheated on yesterday.
So if I didn't quite tell it all in the force that, you know, or if I didn't dig deep enough in six and seven to, you know, I want to rebrand.
And one of my deep.
No, that's just D&D.
That's just me, baby.
You know, no.
So I would say, you know, living out loud earlier, I would say that that that makes sense to me.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Sure does.
And I've I've learned so much from you over the years.
And it's been kind of cool being one of your fans along the way.
And I have to admit, there are some meetings that for a while there that you were kind of a weekly regular in that on the occasions that you do make it there.
And I know.
One of the rooms, unfortunately, the elevator broke to the second floor and it put a real a real barrier to you being able to get to that meeting.
And it's always good to see you in meetings and hear your your words of wisdom.
And it's an amazing story that you tell, Dan.
Thank you, Howard.
I feel super blessed.
And hey, without without you, there is no me, brother.
So, yeah, I love that.
That's a beautiful sentiment to end with, too.
And.
I want to thank you for being on the recovery interviews podcast and hope that I mean, my hope is that everybody listens to it, who people who need it, people who don't need it, people who are just seeking a hope and experience and spirituality and all those other good things.
You've brought them today, brother.
You really have.
And I I love you.
And you're you're one of my favorite people in the program and just in life in general.
And, you know, that if there's ever.
Anything I can do for you, I will.
I feel pretty confident that that you do the same for me.
Absolutely.
Love you, too, brother.
Thanks for doing this, Dan.
Absolutely.
Well, my friends, that's a wrap for this episode of a recovery interviews.
Thanks to Dan D for sharing his story.
And thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed a recovery interviews, will you help me spread the word by recommending it to at least three people?
You know, that includes sponsors, friends, loved ones and anyone else.
And I'll look forward to seeing you on the podcast.
Have a great day.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
Bye.
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