He Thought the Old Timers Weren’t His People — Brent F.

Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic.
Sober since January 1st, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful that you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where AA members share their extraordinary stories
of experience, strength, and hope.
This is the 61st episode in the AA Recovery Interviews podcast series,
and this show features my good friend, Brent F.
We actually recorded it in person immediately after a men's meeting that we both attend.
It's in that meeting that I became reacquainted with Brent when he last got sober three years ago.
I'd actually met him in 1996 when he first attempted to get sober.
But like so many others, it took him several attempts to fully embrace AA
and do the work necessary to achieve solid and contented sobriety.
Those earlier attempts at sobriety,
included significant stints in AA over the years,
during which time he went to meetings and got to know members of the fellowship.
But his half-hearted efforts and a belief that he could still smoke pot
thwarted his attempts at sustained or meaningful sobriety.
He slipped time and time again.
Though his marriage and job remained largely intact throughout the years,
his slow descent into hopelessness and despair
were marked indicators that he indeed needed help.
It took two interventions,
three treatment centers,
multiple forays in AA,
and a threatened divorce before Brent's desire to stay sober finally surfaced from within.
It was at that point that he experienced the spiritual impetus to get sober for good and all.
And that meant no more marijuana, prescription drugs, or alcohol.
In the three years of Brent's current sobriety,
he has worked the program as suggested, while staying in the middle of the herd.
He goes to daily meetings, studies the big book, works the 12 steps with his sponsor,
and sponsees, prays, and does service work for his AA groups.
And, unlike earlier periods of faint sobriety,
he ignores marijuana's beguilement as a harmless threat to his sobriety.
It's an approach that has worked successfully for many people with whom Brent surrounds himself.
I found significant similarities in Brent's story with my own,
especially those pertaining to marijuana's persistent, baffling, and insidious allure.
You may find such similarities as well.
So,
clear your schedule for the next hour of AA Recovery Interviews
with my good friend and AA brother, Brent F.
I'm an alcoholic. My name is Brent.
Hi, Brent.
Thanks for joining me today on the AA Recovery Interviews podcast.
Thank you.
What's really beautiful about this particular interview right now is that
you and I just came out of one of my favorite meetings in the city of Houston.
And you've been coming to this meeting for the past,
three years, pretty regularly?
Three years, this time.
Three years, this time, yeah, because you used to come here before.
Yeah.
You've been sober three years, and what's your sobriety date?
My sobriety date is 11-28-18, so three years and a month or two.
Wow, that's amazing.
Seems like just yesterday you came in.
It is.
But it wasn't your first time in, though, right?
No, it was not.
In fact, the first time I met you was in here,
probably in 1996.
That's amazing.
96.
So what was going on in your life in 1996 prior to getting to the rooms
of Alcoholics Anonymous?
Well, I was on a good trajectory for my career.
My wife and I had, a year prior, had our first child.
She had a job.
She was working.
I was working.
She worked for a design, architecture design firm.
Mm-hmm.
And they worked some late hours on deadlines.
And I had a responsibility one night
to keep an eye on our one-year-old daughter.
Like usual, I had some drinks that evening.
That night, I decided to drink some whiskey, which sometimes
affects me differently.
And I had a few shots and thought
it'd be a good idea to close my eyes for a minute or two.
And the next thing I know, I'm waking up to my wife shaking me.
Wake up.
And she apparently had been, I had put my daughter in the bed
next to me and basically passed out.
And she had been calling for 30 minutes or so,
and I had not been answering.
And she was, of course, freaked out.
She came home, told me, wake up.
She was certainly aggravated.
Mm-hmm.
And I awoke.
My daughter was crying next to me in the bed.
And the first thing I said to her is, because she told me,
I'd been calling for an hour.
And the first thing I said to her was, well,
if you not let the phone ring so much,
the baby probably wouldn't have woken up.
Oh, my gosh.
It was clear to me at that point that my drinking
was becoming a problem.
Yeah.
So I agreed to make an appointment with a doctor.
And I remember him.
He was a young guy.
Apparently, his family were alcoholics.
He was so hardcore.
He was like, you're going to die.
Alcohol is going to kill you.
And I was just, look, man, I just drank too much.
I was still in the, hey, I'm a partier.
This is what I do.
This is what I've been doing for 20-plus years.
And he was really serious and did not
like my laissez-faire attitude towards it.
He suggested that I go to a meeting that night.
And being accommodating, I did, because my wife
wanted me to really dig in.
And I went to that meeting.
And there were about seven people that were really old.
They're probably my age now.
They seemed really old.
And they were old timers.
And I can't remember the whole thing other than me thinking,
that these are not my people.
Yeah, yeah, I get that.
I'm not at all like them.
They had various degrees of waking up shaking,
drinking all day, significant consequences from drinking.
And none of that had happened to me at this point.
So I left there disenchanted with the concept of an AA
meeting.
But in order to get the heat off my back,
I went to a meeting that next day.
And when I walked in there, it was a different mix of people,
because there were people my age as well as old timers.
And it turned out I recognized somebody I knew from school
at that meeting.
And so I started going back to that.
I asked that fellow to be my sponsor.
And I think we got through maybe step three
that I remember going through with him,
because I have it written down in my first book.
I wrote step three.
Sure.
In handwriting, which he had me do.
And didn't do much past that, that I recall.
Were you just not earnest in your attempt?
Or were you thinking that you'd just do the bare minimum
and get the heck out of there?
What was your attitude?
I didn't really get what was going on in a sense.
I was really of the attitude, I drink too much.
If I come to these meetings and hang out with these people,
I'm not going to drink anymore.
I didn't understand the book.
I didn't understand the book when I read it at that time.
And 30, 60, 90 days, I picked up chips.
And I was staying sober.
Didn't at all grasp the concept of higher power being involved
other than we talk about him.
And I did say my third step prayer from time to time.
And I had some friends, other people I knew from outside world.
I'd met in there.
And so there was a little camaraderie.
And I made it to a year and three days.
And I went out and had a drink.
That year period, that's when I must have met you for the first time.
Yes, sir.
Because I was going to some of the same meetings you were.
I don't know that I remember what your attitude was like.
I remember knowing you and knowing your name and everything.
But I didn't know just how serious you were about getting sober or any of that.
Were you putting on airs or were you really trying to work the program?
You know, I don't really remember my mindset.
But back then.
What I can tell you is I still didn't like the fact that I had to call myself an alcoholic.
Didn't feel like an alcoholic because a lot of my stories were different.
I had not had any negative consequences other than the wrath of my wife.
So I was in it to do it.
I felt good about it.
But I had, you know, what the book calls is the lurking notion.
Sure.
Yeah.
You know.
You know, make enough money, retire, whatever, then I can put the old carpet slippers on.
All right.
And maybe I can drink and party like a gentleman.
So I never was, I never got the first step in a sense.
I felt that my actions were keeping me sober.
Yeah.
All right.
And my actions being going to meetings, getting a sponsor like y'all told me to, and that's
it.
There's that disconnect between on that first step.
Between admitting we were powerless and accepting that fact.
And that was my main problem when I was doing the program was I would admit the first three
steps all day long if that's what it took to be a part of AA, but I didn't believe it.
That is absolutely, you know, where I was coming from.
Yeah.
And the unmanageability portion, I didn't even remember that part of the first step.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Cause I was managing my life well.
I just had this drinking problem.
Yeah.
And you were a successful businessman at the time, weren't you?
I was in, like I say, I was 36, maybe no, actually I think I was 32 and I was really
finding my own in business.
You know, so this was holding me back in my personal life.
All right.
It was not holding me back in the work life.
I had not had any health consequences, but it was causing certain tension at home and
I knew I drank too much.
All right.
Mm-hmm .
All right.
And I knew that I probably couldn't stop drinking, but I didn't want to.
It was my good friend until they told me, they told me that I needed to.
They, the doctor, my parents, whoever said, you know, you need to stop drinking.
Were the people in the AA meetings you went to, were they being helpful or cooperative
or were they giving you feedback to the way you were acting or were you able to pretty
much go your own way while you were inside the room?
I did my own thing.
Mm-hmm .
I, I, I did not hang out early.
I did not stick around late.
I did not go to lunch.
I did not go to dinner.
I went to my meetings and I went home.
And your sponsor, was your sponsor someone you talked to regularly or was it just sponsor
name and occasional interaction with?
We talked fairly regularly and he took me to a number of different meetings around town.
Yeah.
But as time went by that, the frequency of our visits and, and conversations certainly
waned.
And, you know, I wasn't doing whatever it takes to stay sober.
I was just doing, you know, whatever it takes at this period of time.
And in my mind, I was doing enough to keep myself sober.
One of the things that I hear and have heard a lot in the, in the interviews was, and it
was true for me too, actually quitting drinking like you did for a year becomes a handy excuse
why you're not an alcoholic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because if you don't quit drinking for a year, then you must be able to control your
drinking.
Did you get that sense?
I absolutely believe that it was not a coincidence that I made it to a year in three days cause
I'm pretty sure I said to myself, okay, you stopped for a year.
Now you know what the deal is.
You can control it.
And so I went back into the world and tried to control my drinking.
Um.
do not recall the period of time, whether it was a year or two years, but my, my drinking started
to aggravate my wife again. Um, and I was drinking too much. I was drinking every day, um, during the
day or just in the evening, just in the evenings after work. But, but I'd come home and have,
you know, several drinks and, you know, fall asleep in the chair and she'd have to wake me
up to go to bed. And, you know, part of my story is marijuana. Yeah. Um, that was really my first
drug of choice. Uh, and that started in 10th grade in high school. From that point on, I,
I smoked every day. Um, and somewhere during college, I started drinking every day. And
in addition to smoking every day, I was the same way. As a matter of fact, my substance of choice
was marijuana. And I found it right after high school,
before I was a kid.
I went to college and then I was, got high every single day. And of course,
some of the people I was hanging out with for the pot were also drinking. So I got involved
in the drinking, even though I felt like I was sharper and, um, a little bit more in control
when I was smoking grass than when I was drinking, I still would oftentimes do both. And, uh, you
know, one thing kind of led, you know, led to the other. And if I couldn't drink, then I could
smoke pot. If I couldn't smoke pot, then I would drink. But for the most part,
I was still drinking. And I was still drinking. And I was still drinking. And I was still drinking.
I was able to get enough pot so I could smoke every day. Right. Is that your experience?
Yes. I always had, there was always pot. And if I ran out, I needed it. So don't let anybody tell
you pot wasn't addictive because I was certainly addicted to it. What I found out somewhere along
the way, and I don't know if it was in high school or in college, um, and don't tell this to the kids,
but if I drank a little bit before I smoked, the high from the weed was more intense. So, uh,
I started drinking before I smoked. Uh, and that was in the evenings. I still smoked in the
morning and the like, but after school, you know, I'd come home, I'd pour a drink and I'd start
drinking. Um, and it was, it was a cocktail or two, um, small drinks. Uh, and, and then I'd smoke
and then we'd go out in college to the bars and drink all night, come home, smoke and start all
over again the next day. And just do it day after day.
Right. Um, but some point along that journey, drinking was an everyday occurrence, um, in the
evenings. Were you a blackout drinker? I was not. Um, I am certainly what they call a chronic
versus a periodic, you know, it made me feel good. Yeah. Uh, and you know, as people say it,
it was the solution, the weed and the alcohol were the solution to make me breathe easier,
relax.
Yeah. Unwind from the day. So when I got into the work world, I mean, that's what I,
I wanted and I felt I needed at the end of every day to have that unwind period. All right. And
the problem is when you start falling asleep in your chair and your wife has to wake you up to
go to bed every night, it becomes a problem for her. Right. For her, not for you. Now,
was she the only one noticing this as a problem?
Were there others? How about your kids? What, what, what was there?
No, they were, they were still real young. Okay. So after I got sober in 96,
right after my wife found out she was pregnant. So we had our son in November of 96,
our second child. And I was clean and sober. My wife's mom had, uh, leukemia and she died in
early 96. And my wife was very thankful that I got sober during that period.
So I was there, I was present when her mom passed away. And so she was very happy, um,
with the way things were going. I, on the other hand, still missed it. And, you know,
consequently a year later, you know, I started drinking again.
Did it become self-evident at any point that you were doing this because she wanted you to do it,
not because you wanted to do it? Absolutely.
So it was a hundred percent because she wanted it, not you.
Correct.
Huh.
Long-term commitment with that going on because sooner or later, the other person
will come to expect that you want the outcome that you're getting from not drinking. And they
want to believe that you feel the way they believe. And when you don't, that's
where the friction starts, isn't it?
It is. And, um, you know, I'm, I'm certain that's why I didn't stay sober. You know,
if you fast forward to 2018, I had every one of the bedevilments that they talk about in the book.
All right. I didn't care if I woke up anymore every day, my life was miserable. Um, I was doing
okay. Still. I had some business traumas, um, along the way, which I had a hard time climbing
out of that self-pity. And consequently I started drinking more and more, but I got to that point
where, you know, I was a prey to misery and depression. I, I really did feel like I was
sinking and there was no way out.
So this period from,
from the time you started drinking again after that year sober to 2018, we're talking 25 years,
aren't we?
So there was a period in the middle and, um, you know, that merits discussion. So I came back into
the program around 98 ish and I stayed sober. I worked all the steps. I got a new sponsor.
Um, I hung out with a good group of people and I was part of the fellowship.
Um, I worked the steps to a degree in a sense. Uh, I did the fourth step. I did a ninth step.
Not sure I did a good six and seven and I'm certain I didn't do a good one.
Um, still never really, uh, understood the concept of a higher power. Um,
and I tried to work the 12th step and work with another person, but I really didn't feel comfortable
doing it because I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy. I was so busy.
Cause I'm not sure I knew how to work the program. Um, and it seemed inconvenient.
And so I gave up on that person didn't stay sober. I didn't seek other sponsors. And I probably didn't
have much to give them other than I've now could say I'm part of the club. I've worked the steps.
Um, it's evident that I didn't do a good step one because I was having some anxiety and sleeping
issues. I went to a psychiatrist.
he had prescribed Ambien for sleeping.
And I started taking Ambien on a daily basis.
And so about three years into it,
I found that if you took a little extra Ambien,
you could actually not go to sleep and stay up
and feel like you were more productive.
And I'd start writing emails and doing work
that I totally didn't remember the next day.
You know, that's kind of a side effect of Ambien
that you can, you know, forget what you were doing.
So were you addicted to the Ambien?
I'm pretty sure you could say I was addicted.
So my friends in the program got together.
We had an intervention, if you will, at my doctor's office.
And, you know, they convinced me I was addicted to Ambien
and that I needed some help.
And I checked into the treatment center for Ambien.
And they detoxed me for a little less than a week,
I think it was.
And I went to their IOP program
and came out clean from Ambien.
The reason to back up, the reason I,
they had the intervention on the Ambien,
because one night after taking a little extra Ambien,
a buddy came over to my house
and I decided,
we should go out to a club.
And I had a beer that night.
And I told everybody, look, I had a beer.
I was taking too much Ambien.
And so that's what precipitated me
going into treatment for that.
You know, we qualified it as a relapse.
This was after how long?
Probably about three years or so.
Okay, so from 98 to 2001?
2001-ish, yeah.
2001.
2001.
So in that period of time,
you were actively participating?
Participating in AA?
Yes.
I was going to meetings, going to dinners after,
hanging out at Starbucks with program guys.
And how was your confidence level,
your belief level at that time?
Were you still feeling resistant to it
or feeling like you hadn't really gotten the first step?
Were you still trying to manage your life?
I didn't know I hadn't gotten the first step
at that period of time.
I felt like I was working the program adequately.
What I can tell you in retrospect is
there was really,
there was really no higher power interaction
at that point in time.
And there still was, you know, man,
you know, I wish I could still be drinking.
But I had been feeling good about the program.
Sure.
And feeling good about myself
that I was now in the deal for several years.
And, you know, I was proud to be part of AA.
But that powerless thing, you know, I took,
I had some knee pain.
So I was taking a little Vicodin in here and there.
Probably not taking it as prescribed.
But I wasn't seeking out other prescriptions.
And this is after?
This was kind of during that Ambien period.
Okay.
When they said that you needed to consider that a relapse,
did you literally come back in as a, to get a new chip?
I picked up another Desire chip.
You picked up another Desire chip in 2001?
About 2001.
2001.
So you stayed sober for...
Yeah.
Three years.
Three years.
But you were dabbling in the different prescription drugs
during that time.
Towards the end of that period, about two years into it,
when I had some knee surgery, you know,
I was taking some painkillers.
Yeah.
But I wasn't drinking.
So as far as I was concerned, I was working the program.
Yeah.
You know.
And the Ambien and taking a little extra Ambien,
still working the program.
Did anybody ever confront you on that?
I mean, before the intervention or during that period of time,
the people who knew you best?
They didn't know.
You know, my business partner who was in the program at that time,
he kind of started seeing about the Ambien thing
because I'd be falling asleep while we were working late at night
at the house and, you know, occasionally he'd recognize
that I couldn't remember some shit.
Okay.
So...
Oh, brother.
And so then, you know, I was outed with the beer.
You know, when I went out that one night and had a beer.
Pretty much came clean with that.
And I agreed I needed to re-up the game.
So we started over.
And I stayed sober for about four and a half years after that.
Okay.
So from 2001 to about 2005, you were sober once again.
Yeah.
2005, 2006, I'm not exactly sure of the date.
Now, were you continuing to use the same sponsor
and going to the same meetings or had you changed that up?
Yes.
We went to the same meetings,
a lot of which we still go to today.
You know, I was ingrained in the program.
Did not pick up a sponsee.
This was the period when I had a sponsee,
when I tried to have a sponsee.
Right.
In the second go-round period.
But I was not reworking the steps.
I wasn't doing a daily inventory.
You know, but I was in the program.
So you were selective about the various things that we do
to enrich our lives with sobriety versus just staying dry
or just staying sober without any of the gifts.
You were going to the meetings.
You were trying to sponsor somebody, right?
Right.
You had a sponsor.
Were you calling your sponsor very frequently?
Yeah, we stayed in touch.
We went to meetings together.
We went to coffees.
At one point I hired my sponsor and he was working for me
for a while.
How'd that work out?
It ended up not so good.
We got crossways on a transaction and he left
and we didn't talk much after that.
That's tough.
You know, which is certainly a good lesson to learn, you know.
To be in a position of authority over your sponsor
is probably not a great relationship.
I get that.
So I'm curious about what you were feeling deep down
in your heart of hearts during this, what, third attempt
at longer-term sobriety, the four and a half years.
What were you feeling deep down about what you were doing?
Were you satisfied from an emotional or spiritual standpoint
or was there still something in there that you just could not
bring yourself to do or feel or experience?
I was feeling satisfied emotionally.
I really felt like I was on a good beam, if you will.
In retrospect, I can see how my ego, as things were going well,
and now that I'm doing all the right things,
my ego started to get enormous.
And with that, you know, my selfishness or my grandiosity
or, you know, I felt I was giving.
I was giving people some jobs.
I was helping people.
And this charitability was service.
But was I doing good for nothing in return?
Not so much.
So I really was feeling that.
I was feeling my Wheaties towards the end
of this four- to five-year period.
If you, knowing what you know today,
were to meet the Brent at that period
and you noticed what was going on with him,
what would you say to that guy?
You're not the king of the world.
Uh-huh.
Was that coming out at that time,
that you exuding that as the kind of personality
you wanted to put out in front of people?
I was the smartest person in the room.
Really?
Even in an AA room?
This is probably more
day-to-day life.
Oh, okay.
Now, in an AA room,
I was the smartest person in the room
but not the most wise as it relates to the program.
I knew that.
Right.
I knew there were people that had more wisdom
about staying sober and about spirituality and the like.
But I was still smarter than anybody,
what I'll call in real life.
I don't know if that's the case.
No, I get that.
Was it a smugness?
No, it was just an overconfidence.
Overconfidence, okay.
Which caused a rift between me
and my AA business partner protege
because I wasn't willing to listen to another point of view.
Interesting.
How were things at home during this four-year,
four-and-a-half-year period?
They were good.
The Ambien years caused an issue.
My wife, of course, was nervous and scared again
that I had relapsed.
But, you know, I bounced back pretty well
deep into the program.
And, you know, we had, I think my 35th birthday,
I guess this was early on, was all AA people.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, my family and AA people.
Uh-huh, yeah.
And we were enmeshed in the herd, so to speak.
But there was no connection with a higher power.
There was no spirituality.
I was still under the belief, you know,
if I made enough money and was able to relax,
relax on the business growth,
then I would have time, you know, to study spirituality.
I get it.
It becomes more spiritual.
Mm-hmm.
And to have a higher concept, a higher power.
We'll be right back.
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And we're back.
So sobriety didn't have the priority
that we, that it really should have in a person's life.
You were putting other things in front of them
as justification or as, let's say, delaying factors
to getting to the real meat of the program
at some later point.
It really, that really just changed, you know, over time.
So when I got back into the program,
sobriety was number one.
Because it's ingrained in us, you know,
you must be sober first for everything to follow.
All right?
And, you know, once I got to that third year
and fourth year, it's like, well,
my powerlessness waned as I became more powerful.
So the priority of sobriety was, it's a given.
All right?
You know, you can't drink, you can't smoke anymore.
But that's not, and we're going to still go to our meetings,
but that's not going to be number one.
And that became evident as my daily meetings,
turned to three times a week meetings,
turned to just Saturday morning.
And you could see the progression that everybody has.
Stopped calling my sponsor.
How long of a period was that?
At what point did you notice yourself letting up
on any particular facet of your program?
Probably two or three years into it.
Probably when my sponsor and I split,
I stopped going to as many meetings.
But, I mean, there were still, you know,
a frequency of meetings.
But it did, towards the end, it certainly fell off
to one meeting a week.
Would you say that then, from what your experience was,
that the importance of meetings was never overstated?
No.
I think meetings are important for lots of reasons.
Number one, as you start reducing your meeting,
you just hear over and over and over,
as you start reducing your meeting count,
you become in more danger.
And when anybody who relapses, you ask them what went wrong,
well, I stopped going.
Well, I stopped going to meetings,
stopped calling my sponsor,
stopped reading the big book.
So I think having a solid meeting schedule
is critical to staying sober.
So what year are we at now?
Probably 2005-ish.
2005-ish.
You've just completely let up on the program
to the extent of fewer meetings.
Were you...
I was still hanging with program people.
Yeah.
Were they starting to notice a difference in Brent
as a participating brother in the program,
or were you able to keep it up, keep those friendships up,
as if you were actively engaged all the time?
I don't know if they noticed.
I will tell you, towards that period of time,
2005, 2006,
the way I relapsed was I was out hunting
with some old buddies,
and they had passed some weed around the campfire,
and I took a heat of some weed.
I felt like I was missing out.
You know, weed was becoming a little more passe.
Yeah.
And so I started smoking.
And a week later, I had asked a buddy,
hey, can you get me some of that?
And very quickly, I was back to smoking on a daily basis.
Now, my AA buddies knew that I was smoking,
and I was still coming to meetings having had smoked,
my argument was that the only requirement for membership
is a desire to stop drinking.
And I was not drinking.
Well, the desire to stop,
it doesn't necessarily mean you have stopped.
One of the women I interviewed early on in the podcast series,
she was going to AA meetings for like five years,
was drinking after the meetings.
But she wanted to stop.
But it took until the point at which she finally did,
the desire to stop was there,
so you found a way to justify or rationalize it.
That's exactly the case.
I was like, look, I don't want to drink anymore.
I get it.
Alcohol was a problem for me.
Yeah.
All right, but this weed is a whole different animal.
Yeah.
Yeah, it changes the way I feel,
but, you know, there's no negative consequences from it,
other than my wife was now getting aggravated about it too.
All my buddies in AA didn't want to play with me anymore
because I was not sober.
And, you know, basically it was like my group,
my sober group kind of dissolved.
Did they feel let down,
or did you get the sense from them that they were?
Oh, yeah.
They had an intervention.
They had a pot intervention for me at my house.
The same guys from the previous intervention or a few?
A couple were the same guys,
a couple was my business partner,
a couple heavy hitters,
and I was appalled that they'd get together at my house.
You know, to have an intervention for pot,
because nobody has an intervention for pot.
It's like, you know, what are y'all thinking?
Yeah, it's so benign, right?
Right.
Nobody, why would you do that?
And so I got up, I walked out.
Oh, you walked out of your own intervention?
I did.
Huh.
For the weed.
Keep in mind, my ego is.
Sky high.
The top of the level.
Right.
It's like, y'all don't know what you're doing.
Yeah.
Y'all are being stupid.
I got this under control.
Um.
And so my involvement in the program
pretty much disintegrated.
And the pot got in the way of my business partnership,
where, in a sense, we got divorced.
Right.
Not my wife, my business partner.
Business partner.
And very shortly after that,
my wife said, we need to get a divorce.
Mm.
So we were separated for four months.
I was pretty miserable during that time.
Mm-hmm.
And I did not drink.
For at least a year after all this went down,
I stayed dry from alcohol.
Yeah.
I was smoking weed, but I was committed.
Hey, man, I'm not going to drink.
I know that's bad.
And so my wife and I were separated.
I was very miserable, lonely.
Our kids were six and whatever age.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, they'd come over and visit for a few hours.
One day we went to an Astros game,
and all I could do was sit there and cry
that I didn't have my family anymore.
So you were living elsewhere at the time.
Yeah, I went to an apartment for four months.
And, you know, I begged her to come back.
I'll do better.
Mm-hmm.
All right, I'm not drinking.
And the saint that she is, she saw how miserable I was
and let me come back in.
But you never said to her, I won't smoke pot?
I may have told her I'll try to do better.
Okay.
But I don't think there was a hard and fast I got to stop.
Yeah, so you didn't want to stop at that point.
I didn't really want to stop.
I just wanted my family back.
Okay.
So the family comes back.
The family comes back.
At four months, I continued to smoke pot till about 2008.
Uh-huh.
And somewhere in the 2006 to 2008, I started drinking again.
Huh.
Yeah.
So I didn't have any program, and I wasn't going to any meetings.
So it was just a natural progression at that point.
Absolutely.
Your wife threw you out, and then you came back after four months.
But your program was dissolving around you because you wanted to smoke pot
and wanted acceptance in the rooms from people that you were sober,
even though you were smoking pot.
And there are some rooms out there where people will do that.
I get it.
But I've known men who've come into this very meeting room
that we're in tonight who tried to convince the group
when they would share that it was okay for them to smoke pot.
They had some kind of special dispensation.
And it's not so much that people were ragging on them
or saying negative things in the meeting or whatever.
It's just that the atmosphere of the entire fellowship shifted for that person
because a lot of us who are also pot smokers
who consider sobriety, meaning all the different substances,
it's hard to sit there and watch a guy who's still doing the substance
that you want to do, but no, you can't do, but it's okay for him.
There's just something that doesn't feel right about it.
Did you get that sense?
I did.
And Dan, in fact, was the one that took me aside and said,
I can't hang out with you anymore.
He said, if you're smoking pot, it's dangerous to my program.
You're a danger to me.
If I see you getting along,
and going to meetings smoking pot,
and everything's hunky-dory,
I might in my mind think that I can do that too.
Yeah, why can Brent do it and I can't?
Right.
And so he says, I cannot, I can't be with you.
I can't condone it.
I don't want to see that.
Yeah, I could hear Dan saying that too, the type of sobriety that he has.
Right.
So you started drinking again.
I did.
In about 2006 to 2008 period.
Right.
2006 or so, I started drinking again.
Uh-huh.
2008, because my business relationship had gotten tumultuous,
I started having some serious anxiety.
And when I smoked, I think the weed might have been getting stronger too,
I started having these panic attacks.
And so at some point in there, I stopped smoking pot.
It was tripping me out.
You know, before, it was always a measured response.
It worked the same way every time.
But it stopped working for me.
And it made me scared, because some days I would have a bad reaction to it,
and some days it's okay.
But I never knew how it was going to work.
Did you ever try to use the alcohol to counteract the anxiety that you were having
or the panic attacks that were being caused, let's say, by the pot?
Yeah.
My drinking increased because of that.
So your drinking increased to get through the panic.
Right.
Absolutely.
And so at some point, I said, look, I can't smoke anymore.
This is not working anymore for me.
But drinking is now my good buddy again.
I get it.
And that works every time the same way every time.
So from 2006 or 2007, I drank all the way until 2018.
Wow.
That whole time?
Yeah.
So I was out about 13 years.
These are parts of your story I've never heard.
But it's amazing how much exposure you had
and how much participation you had in AA to be out for that period of time.
What were you thinking about AA?
Did you ever think about AA when you were going through that period?
No.
I did not look back after 2006.
Did you not want to have anything to do with it?
Or you were done with AA?
I tried it.
It didn't work.
It didn't make me feel better.
At least I didn't remember that it made me feel better.
I could not remember the benefits of it.
You know, it's strange.
So I feel bad for folks who are forced into the program
or come in because their parents, their wife, their loved ones tell them to come in,
young people who were there or come here from DWIs.
The judge sent them there.
I feel that's the way I was.
You know, they talk about hitting your bottom.
I had no idea what that meant.
I thought my bottom was my daughter crying in the bed next to me.
So I see how hard it can be for newcomers who have not got to that point of desperation yet.
I was not at a point of desperation.
Was it because you hadn't lost enough or your health was still good?
It was all of those things.
I was not in any pain other than some emotional pain.
But in 2018, I didn't want to go anywhere.
I just wanted to sit in my backyard and smoke and drink.
You were back to smoking pot at that point?
For a few months, I started smoking pot in the middle of 2018.
Okay.
Again, it worked for a little bit, and then it started waffling on me.
So it was not really my go-to.
Again, it was a supplement.
But alcohol was, you know, daily, lots of alcohol.
Yeah.
I was now waking up in the middle of the night, 3 in the morning, having to go to the kitchen,
take a couple chugs out of the bottle to go back to bed.
I didn't want to go into work.
Anxiety and depression and self-pity were all on me.
It was thick.
And I was really starting to get some serious panic attacks where my face would flood.
My face would flush.
People from work would call, or I'd get a voicemail, and I would just start sweating.
I didn't want to be available for anybody.
I didn't want you to tell me to do something because I just didn't want to go out into the world.
I would set all my appointments up for Thursday afternoon between 1 and 3 o'clock.
All the appointments for the week.
If you called me on a Monday, I'm too busy until Thursday.
I had a woman that I recently interviewed.
Tell me that her anxiety and the panic attacks that she had from similar types of situations that you're talking about
created agoraphobia for her where she just didn't want to be around people at all.
It was close to that.
Was it?
It was close to that.
We'd make plans to go out to dinner with people.
And I had full intention.
Yeah, that sounds fun.
Let's get out.
Let's go.
I could go drink there.
It would be all right.
But the night of the deal, I don't want to go.
I just want to stay home.
I don't want to go to the backyard.
I don't want anybody screwing with me.
You know what's interesting about your story, Brent, is that there was a period in time
where your wife's desire to have you stop was sufficient for you to stop and go to AA.
And you had a relationship that supported that particular premise that you would go
and she would stop being concerned or nagging or whatever she did.
What was her demeanor like during all of these years?
Was she too busy raising the kids?
Did she ever get on you again to stop?
Sure.
It varied.
There'd be some pressure, and then I'd play it off and tell her, I understand.
I'm working on it.
I'll try to drink a little less.
And I got away with that for 13 years or so.
For the last year or two, 2016 to 18, she was really miserable with my drinking.
It was palpable.
I'd come to bed with a drink in my hand with the ice clinking in the glass.
She would be dead asleep at 10 o'clock.
I'd be coming in at midnight or something.
She'd hear that ice clinking, wake straight up, what are you having another drink for?
Why do you need another drink?
I don't need another drink.
I want another drink.
You want another drink.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So I'd go to bed and watch TV for a little bit.
I'd wake up the next morning, and that full drink was sitting next to me.
So she went to bed aggravated many nights.
She would check the bottle every morning to see how much I drank the night before.
And this is part of her story, because she's devoted to Al-Anon now.
So she's a devoted member of Al-Anon.
Yeah.
Did she go into Al-Anon before you got sober again?
No.
She had gone down on many years prior.
Yeah.
About three meetings.
And bought the books, put them on the shelf, and never really went back.
But when I went into treatment at 18, she went to her first Al-Anon meeting again and
has gone every day since.
So she's become a regular.
Yeah.
You know what's ironic about that, Brent, is that she becomes a regular after you get
sober, where for a lot of Al-Anons, and I was in Al-Anon for a period of time a number
of years ago.
But the time it's most important, or not least important, let's say, is when the person
is still engaging in the behavior and you're trying to survive it.
And Al-Anon is teaching you the skills to survive the act of alcoholic out there.
So while you're out there drinking everything, she leaves the book on the shelf, you get
sober, she gets involved.
It's actually a beautiful story, but I'm sure she must have been miserable for a lot of
years in there.
She was.
And you could feel it.
And it wasn't going to end well.
Were the kids grown by this point, by 2018?
Yeah.
So I was drinking during their high school years, pretty much, and before that.
But they really knew I was an alcoholic when they were in high school.
They understood.
They understood when we went on vacations, dad says, I got to stop at the liquor store
before we go to the hotel.
And I'd feel bad if it was a four-day vacation that after two days I'd have to leave and
I'd have to leave them and go to the liquor store again to resupply.
How many kids have you got?
I've got two.
Two.
Twenty-seven and twenty-five.
Are either one of them involved with any kind of substance abuse or alcoholism that you
know of?
They do some social drinking and some social smoking these days.
Yeah, I get that.
I've got the same kind of thing with my three, and my daughter doesn't drink or smoke or
anything.
I've got two sons, thirty-one and twenty-nine.
Every time I see them order a drink when we go out to dinner, it's like I want to say,
wait a second, but then I have to remember, wait, they're not the alcoholic at the table
here.
They're ordering one drink and that's all they want.
Right.
But it's hard not to want to project onto them, you know, just that fear of them turning
into what I was for all those years.
Oh man, it's hard.
Did you ever get that sense?
Oh, absolutely.
How do you deal with that when you feel that way?
You know, for a while it was like, hey man, let me tell you all the pitfalls.
You know all the bad things that happened to me.
Perhaps this isn't a good plan.
But somebody told me that, look, how would you have taken it when you were drinking and
starting to smoke?
I know.
I know.
But anybody said to me when I started smoking weed or drinking, I wasn't listening to.
Yeah, I'm the same way.
And plus the days and the opportunities to have said something that might have had a
little bit more impact kind of came and went.
Right.
The best that I can do for my kids is stay sober and be a model of a sober man and a
sober dad and a sober person in the community.
That's exactly right.
The advice I got was back off on telling them what to do.
That's certainly good Al-Anon advice.
But let them know if they think they're having a problem that you're a resource for them
to talk to.
So 2018, you come back.
Things have really ramped up in terms of the anxiety and the drinking and the business
difficulties.
Was all that kind of coming to a head in 2018?
It came to a head in 2018.
Yeah.
About 2013.
Wow.
So you spent five years in that quagmire?
Yeah.
And it got progressively worse.
Sad, self-pity, couldn't dig myself out of a hole starting in 2013.
And by 2018, I could see no way out.
I didn't even, I assumed there was no way out.
It was never going to get better again.
And all I wanted to do was ease the pain.
Yeah.
I've known people who've contemplated suicide.
I didn't contemplate suicide, but I really was okay if I didn't wake up the next day.
Yeah.
I get it.
It's just kind of a passive way of getting to this.
Exactly the same.
I mean, maybe that's the answer.
If I just don't wake up, it'll be okay.
I've got life insurance.
Everybody will be okay with that.
So did you have some kind of spiritual experience before you came back in, in 2018?
Was there a particular moment of clarity for you before you came back in 2018?
Yeah.
I mean, I've been in the business for a long time.
I've been in the business for a long time.
I've been in the business for a long time.
I've been in the business for a long time.
I've been in the business for a long time.
I got to get back in the AA.
I've got to stay sober.
I've got to do this.
A couple of events that precipitated it.
Well, my dad passed away in early 2018.
So, there was a little grief process there.
I say that like it's something to remember.
I don't know what to say.
I don't know how, but I just tell my dad.
Uh-huh.
And it's like really, really sad.
Yeah.
I know.
I know.
I know.
But I think it's like, oh, well, this is what I'm going to do.
You know?
Why?
Right?
Yeah.
Exactly.
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
a minimal event. Um, you know, I don't think that was traumatic, you know, serious trauma. He was
92 years old. Um, certainly I was sad, but a few months after that, my psychiatrist of about six
years killed himself. Right. And he was the guy treating me for my anxiety and my panic. And by
the way, I was back on Ambien. I was on Klonopin. I was on Trazodone. I was on speed in the morning
to wake me up. All right. With Klonopin on the side to limit my aim by it was in between and
booze in between. I drank a ton at night, taking Ambien, taking Trazodone to go to sleep. Needless
to say, he was not an addiction specialist. He passed away. And, and that was really a catalyst
for me starting to crack up. Kind of like a wake up call or?
Well,
kind of like, I didn't have anybody now to talk to. My wife is mad at me because I'm drinking all
the time. I didn't have anywhere to go. Hmm. That's tough. You know, I had to, I didn't find
out about his passing and, uh, until I called to make an appointment and said, oh, by the way, we,
let me have somebody else talk to you. What a way to find out. And, and so I tried to see another
doctor. That guy said, well, you know, you probably ought to stop drinking. Like, yeah, but I don't
want to.
go to AA. I've tried that. And he said, well, there's this thing called smart recovery. And
I'm like, eh, that doesn't sound like it's for me either. And so I didn't get a good vibe from him.
And so a month or so went by and I called a friend of ours in the program who's connected to the
recovery community. I said, look, I need a new psychiatrist. And he gave me the name of a doctor.
I called her on the phone. He gave me the number. She said, all right, what medicines are you on?
I said, I'm on Klonopin, Trasnone, Ambien. She said, oh, wait, I can't see you until you're off
all of that. So I called my buddy back. And by the way, when I called him the first time, I was
crying. I said, look, man, I'm miserable. I'm in a bad place. I need a new shrink. I'm cracking up.
He referred to me as a hot mess when I talked to him. So that doctor said she wouldn't see me
unless I got to work.
To a baseline, free and clear of drugs. And so I reported back to him. He helped me get an
appointment over at the treatment center. So back to the same treatment center you'd
gone to 14 years earlier. Right. And I checked in. I checked in with a gym bag and a couple
t-shirts, figuring I'd be up there to detox. And then I'd walk out and I'd just come back into AA
and y'all would welcome me with open arms. And I would do the program. And we had a meeting there
about...
Four days into my stay there with my wife and two doctors, my counselor, our buddy from the
program. And I told him, you know, my plan was I'm going to finish detox and I'm going to leave.
And they said, well, that's not our recommended plan for you.
Of course not.
And so they said, look, you got to have just a little willingness. Think about it. Be willing
to stay. Our plan is residential treatment. And the other...
Is the program.
Is the program there after, aftercare. And so I left that meeting, you know, adamant that I wasn't
going to stay. And they had a little group process group that morning after the meeting or the next
morning after the meeting. And I showed up to that men's group and one of our other buddies from the
program was leading that meeting. And I had known him outside the program. Our kids went to school
together. I never knew he was in the program.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Yeah.
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
there. And I said, man, they want me to stay here. He said, I don't want to stay here. And he turned
to me and said, man, you got to stay. It's not going to work if you don't stay. And so that was
my first kind of God moment that he put that man in my life right then. And I stayed. And
it made a hell of a difference. I mean, you know, I got to go through all the different emotions
during that next few weeks, not the least of which was I am totally different than all these
people, these youngsters doing heroin, you know, shit like that. It's like, I am not like any of
these people. And after a few weeks, it's like, I am exactly like these people. We all got the
same shit. You learn some of the science behind addiction and things like that. You get back into
the swing of the program. But, you know, hitting that bottom and hearing about everybody else's
problems.
Bottom and learning about, you know, what the real first step is all about, about being
powerless. Because people came in and we talked and we had meetings in there. And I really kind
of felt the first step for the first time. And I realized I never got it before.
Your emotion in the moment right now is an indication of just how powerful it must have
been at the time when you recognize that that man was a godsend. Did that moment of clarity,
that God moment with him,
it sounds like it changed your entire frame of mind towards everything else.
It did. You've heard me say in a meeting, our buddy who recommended I go there met me when I
was up in detox. And I had told him, look, man, I never got the God thing. And he pointed me to
the page in the book where it said you have to make a decision whether God is everything or
else he's nothing. And I said, well, up to this point, you know, God's done nothing for me. And
he turned right to me and said, how's that been working for you? I'm like, well, when you put it
that way, it hasn't been working so good. He said, you know, perhaps you should be willing to consider
that maybe God's everything. And then two days later, I had that God moment. It's like, well,
God, maybe, maybe there is something out there working for me. So it was really powerful.
It sounds like it. And it was the thing that finally moved you off the dime to be able to
do the work.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I was really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really,
really ready to dig back in. And it's funny that I went on pass like two or three weeks into my stay
there. And I showed up to this meeting. Yeah, I remember. And you were there and you said,
ask me if I had a sponsor. Yeah. I was like, no, not yet. I'm looking. You said, hold on.
You called my guy over and said, hey, this be a good sponsor. Yeah. And he's still my sponsor
today. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And that was kind of a God thing too, as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah.
It definitely is for me. And I know it was for him. And he is an amazing man. And I've seen the
quality of his sobriety grow and improve since being your sponsor. And I've seen you as I've
never seen you before. Your participation in the fact that you seem to be like right in the middle
now.
Absolutely.
I'm seeing you at meetings. You're not hesitating to go out to eat afterwards. You're very amenable
to whatever the group is.
Doing. And you do service work for the groups. And you're at a meeting virtually almost every
day, I guess.
Absolutely.
And your sponsor, he's become that kind of man too. So I've been able to see both of you
grow in that way.
Absolutely.
So you've been here for the last three plus years. And typically what I do is I take people
back and we talk about what it was like, what happened, and certainly what it's like now.
What it's like now.
In other words, from today back to the point at which you finally came back into AA for,
let's hope, the final desire chip. How do you feel about the overall state of your sobriety
right now, given what you've done in the past three years?
My sobriety is pretty solid, I think. I always feel like I can enhance my conscious contact
with a higher power. I did a little New Year's resolution thing with some of the people I work
with.
And in process groups. And at the end of the year, I said, all right, what's one thing you can
enhance in your life? And what's one thing that you can enhance in your program? And for me,
my program was need to stick with the daily meditations. I need to enhance my meditation
and my prayer. If I can improve on anything, it's really a conscious contact throughout the day
with my higher power, not just five minutes in the morning.
With some prayers. But spending more time in that daily meditation and enhancing that contact.
Because I don't know about you, but from time to time, I wax and wane on, is everything going to
be okay? Is my higher power got my back? Is it going to turn out the way it's supposed to turn
out? And am I okay with the way it's going to turn out? Because I'm still always wanting that
result to be my way.
In looking back, I've yet to find any occurrence in my life, going back,
all the years where God has not been part of the equation or the solution. And so his box score,
whatever you want to call it, is a hundred percent. And yet going into the next thing
that might require the letting go to God, I still think it's not going to work out. It's like you've
won every single race you've ever run. And yet you're still going into the next one thinking
you're going to lose. My biggest challenge spiritually is to be able to stop during the day
any point and just acknowledge, okay, God, you got this. If I get off the phone with somebody and
it's been a particularly enriching call, the very first thing I say is, thank you, God. I say that
after every interview. Before I go in, I say, put the words in my mouth and in my mind and let my
heart direct those words. Because you notice I don't have any script. There's no scripting here.
This is all about heart to heart. The thing I love about your sobriety and watching you stay sober,
is that there is a marked difference between you now and you then. And it's a real joy to see it.
Now you're sponsoring some guys right now, aren't you?
Yeah, I've got a handful of guys.
A handful of guys. What's that been like for you?
Oh, it's been fabulous. It's, you know, working with others is the real buzz.
The real buzz. Wow.
In the program. And it is. I mean, it's what keeps the momentum alive in the program.
It's what keeps me going back through the program.
I did not do that well in my go rounds. Not that it would have made a difference, I think.
But it is a requirement. We have to work with others in order to keep the program fresh.
It's what fills the hole in your soul. That's really what makes you feel good.
Not just staying sober doesn't make you feel good, but working, being a helpful, useful member to my wife,
to others in the program. That's the stuff I didn't get before.
It's about enriching our lives through that process. And what you've talked about,
on this episode, is the things that were missing before have been found in this
period of sobriety for you. Especially the service work, the sponsoring,
being of service to other people. You can always tell the quality of a man's sobriety by looking
at the guys he sponsors and by the guys those guys sponsor. And I know some of the guys you sponsor,
and they are really, comparing how they were when they came in to how they are today, it's amazing.
You can see the light.
You can see the light in their eyes.
Yeah. They're all doing great. Along the lines of what you just said,
one of the biggest differences that I think is the big book. When I read the big book my first two
times, I had no idea what it was saying. I really didn't connect with it at all until I got to that
place of desperation. And then when I read it, I was like, yeah, man, that's how I felt. That's
how I felt when I read it. I'm not going to connect with the big book this time. And that makes a
difference when you're working with a sponsor because you read it again, and again, and again.
And how can you explain what some of it means to a new guy if you don't feel it or understand it
yourself? And this time, I got it. Back in previous go rounds, it was like, this is an
antiquated language. I had no idea what this guy's talking about. You know, a car dealer
putting milk in his whiskey. I mean, what does this have to do with me? But the insanity of
that guy's thinking before he did it, I felt that way. And I get it now. It's like Chuck
sees a new pair of glasses. And I find that whenever I read the big book and, you know,
I've done the big book podcast. And part of that, the most interesting part of that was
getting to go through the stories that never made it into the third and fourth editions,
because a lot of those stories involved men and women who were contemporaries of Bill Wilson and
Dr. Bob. And these were stories about people who got sober back then. And those are some
really antiquated stories. But the power behind them is as fresh as today. It's just amazing
to know that the people whose guidance we are following had at most when they wrote that book,
three or four years. Blows my mind. Right. So to me, it's one of God's greatest gifts to mankind.
Absolutely. Without a doubt. Well, you know, this has really been terrific. Just spending some time
with you tonight and hearing your story and seeing the gifts. I'm assuming these gifts are
carrying over into your personal relationships at home and at work. Yeah. My wife and I are better
than ever. That's great.
We go to chapter nine meetings together. Oh, great. And, you know, whereas we were
two ships that passed in the night before, we are on the same team again,
working towards a common goal. Oh, that's full.
Personal recovery for both of us. I get it.
And we're doing better. Well, I'm so glad that that's worked out for you. And
I'm glad that you were able to do this. And I just want to say I love you. You're a good man.
And it means a lot to me that you would do this. Somewhere, someplace, there's somebody,
who may hear this and it may make a difference in their life. The value of even doing this is if
one person could be helped, our job is done. That would be a great gift.
Pretty much so. I appreciate you still being around, man.
Yeah, well, I am. You're still here.
I'm still here. And again, many thanks, Brent.
It was my pleasure, man. I'm glad we did it.
I am too.
Well, my friends, that's all for this episode of AA Recovery Interviews. I want to thank my guest,
Brent F., for sharing his story. And thank you for
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