Direct and Living Amends – 12 Step Workshop – Part 3 of 5 – Debbie D.

Okay, let's reset. Yeah. Oh darn, I didn't turn that into pause. You'll have to edit all that breakout. Sorry, Perry. I hope not. That's a scary thought. What did it pick up? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so we're back now to step eight. In our big book, 8 and 9 have sort of meshed together. This is another step where I will read out of the 12, not today, but I'll read outof the 12 and 12 with the spot C on step 8 and step 9. But today we're just going to highlight some of the actions for step 8 and 9. so we know that step 8 is unto itself we made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all now so let me ask you as a body do you have you don't have to answer this to me but to yourself do you have any amends left to make whether it be on your old list a fresh list are they old amends or new amends ask yourself why are they still yet to be made is it because you can't find them you just realized them I just realized a few months ago I owe someone amends and I can't even remember how to spell their last name but it was back from my early sobriety, and I know it's important that I make that. I've got to try to track that person down because my behavior at that time in my life was really inappropriate, and as a sober member of AA. And I'd really like if I can find this person to get that cleaned up. So I know I have one left to make from years ago. So I want to encourage you, these are freedom steps. Amends keep us in bondage, especially some of those old hurts. And this is one of those amends, this is a harm that I caused them that they did nothing to me. This would have been in that fourth category on the inventory had I remembered it those years ago. So, these become our freedom steps more than anything. Oftentimes, this friend of mine says he stayed on 6 and 7 a long time, mainly because he knew 8 and 9 was coming up next. He just didn't want to quite rush into those events. But again, what interest do I have in my recovery? how soon do I want to improve get free connect to God turn it, move forward as I said earlier forgiveness is a very tough one for me and yet forgiveness is what these two steps are so much about and so I included for you in your handout this page from the daily reflections For those of you who aren't familiar with that, it's AA's daily book of readings that was published in 1990. And I read the Daily Reflections every day and in fact I mark my number of days on the top. It's a reminder of my physical sobriety. And I thought this was so interesting. I love this page. Now, I find it interesting that it's the month of August, which is 8, and it was on the 9th of August. So this pertains to steps 8 and 9. So again, that funny little interesting thing. So it says, Of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all, one of the key words in the eighth step is the word all. I am not free to select a few names for the list and to disregard others. It is a list of all persons I have harmed. I can see immediately that this step entails forgiveness because if I'm not willing to forgive someone, there's little chance I will place his name on the list. Before I place the name on my list, I said a little prayer. I forgive anyone and everyone who has ever harmed me at any time and under any circumstances. That's huge. I mean, that is like so grown up, but it's so big, but It's so God. That's a little prayer, my foot. I mean that's a big prayer going on. It says it is well for me to contemplate a small but very significant two-letter word every time the Lord's Prayer is said. The word is as. I ask, forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. In this case, as means in the same manner. I am asking to be forgiven in the same manner that I forgive others. As I say this portion of the prayer, if I am harboring hatred or resentment, I'm inviting more resentment when I should be calling on the spirit of forgiveness I just love that I really do it sets my mind in a direction that is much more spiritually based than thinking of the harms they've done me and it helps me on the path of making these changes and making these amends so let's take a look at our big book beginning on page 76 we begin steps 8 and 9 now we're not going to read every paragraph so there's just a little bit of a highlighting that I'm going to do here so in the first paragraph which for 8 and 8 starts with now we need more action it indicates a couple of lines down we have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends we made it when we took inventory this is where we get our list we subjected ourselves to a drastic self appraisal now I go out to my fellows and repair the damage done in the past I attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of my effort to live on self-will and run the show myself. If I haven't the will to do this, I ask until it comes. And the next paragraph talks about having a little misgiving is about going to some of these people and on the top of 77 it says the second sentence there at the moment I'm trying to put my life in order but this is not an end in itself. It's not all about me. It says my real purpose is to fit myself to be of maximum service to God and the people about me. It's not about, well, when the situation is right, then I will be useful, then I Will Be of Service. No, it will never be right because it's going to be right on my very limited way of thinking. It's I need to adjust myself like a little beanie baby to be of service, maximum service to God and the people about me. In the next paragraph, a few lines down it says, The question of how to approach the man I hate will arise. And what I have found is that everybody has at least one huge amend they just do not want to make. They just can't ever see it making those amends. So, here's what it guides us to do. It may be he has done me more harm than I have done him. Of course that's how it will always be in my view. And though I may have acquired a better attitude toward him, I'm still not too keen about admitting my fault. Nevertheless, with the person I dislike, I take the bit in my teeth it is harder to go to an enemy than to a friend but I find it much more beneficial to me again here's our guide I go to him in a helpful and forgiving spirit confess my former ill feeling and express my regret this we must be adamant under no condition do I criticize such a person or argue I simply tell him that I will never get over drinking until I have done my utmost to straighten out the past. I am there to sweep off my side of the street, realizing that nothing worthwhile can be accomplished until I do so. Never try to tell him what he should do. His faults are not discussed. I stick to my own. If my manner is calm, frank, and open, I will be gratified with the results. This is our guide on those tough ones and really on any one of them. And we'll talk about the men's in a few minutes when we get more to nine. But with that list, we start with that list. And years ago, I heard Clint Hodges talk about this when he was doing a step workshop the suggestion which he had got from somebody was each person that was on our inventory that we owe amends to get a recipe card or make one up you don't even have to spend the 99 cents to get a box of recipe cards just some sort of small piece of paper the name on there and what is the amend and then that way you are always ready at any given time to make that, and you're focused on that. It's also wise, I think, to review with your sponsor beforehand your identification, your view of what the amend is that you owe this person. And the reason is because sometimes we either minimize what we need to amend to make amends for, or we also take responsibility for the 1989 earthquake. so we can go to such extremes we want to again keep it in the proper perspective keep it to the incident involved and focus on what the harms were that you did as you saw them in your inventory so with that we can then go about and make good on to the ninth step the action of that amends so before we talk about that, we'll continue a little bit more of the reading here. Now there's alcoholics that owe money. Many of us came in, not everybody, but many of us come in with some financial problems. People we owed money to, creditors we dodged. It gives us a guideline and we'll talk about money. When you owe money on top of 79 that second paragraph. To me, that's one of those little prayers that I like to think about before I make that amend. It says, Reminding myself that I've decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience. Again, not get perfect, get wonderful, but this is part of the spiritual experience I ask and I'm asking God that I be given strength, interaction to do the right thing no matter what the personal consequences may be. I may lose my position or reputation or face jail, but I am willing, I have to be, and must not shrink at anything. Now, I've certainly heard of a few cases where that amend didn't go too good, meaning they did end up in jail, but they also didn't check with their sponsor first or they went against their sponsor's suggestion and therefore there were consequences that they had to pay. Okay, that's my lesson learned via their experience. But this is why it's a good idea to talk with the sponsor. But you know what? If that's what he felt he had to do, that's What he felt He had to Do. But anyway, he was willing and he went to jail. Okay, so that can happen. Yeah, right. On page 80, a little trivia there for you. I love the story in starting with paragraph two. This brings to mind a story of one of our friends. Actually, that's not one of our real friends in AA. That was from the Oxford Group Literature. That story about the guy who went before the church and the bitterly hated business rival. That's actually from Oxford Group literature but the story nonetheless is powerful. And that's in your handbook here. That story being is that there was a long overdue amends. He had ruined his business rival. But what he did first is he checked with his wife and he checked avec this business partner. These people would be directly impacted if this amend went rogue, you know, went bad. They both supported him because they saw, as he states here, he saw that he had to place the this is in the 1, 2, 3, 4th paragraph about part way down he saw that he would soon start drinking again and all would be lost anyhow he just could not carry this amends unsettled amends to his grave and as the story goes he became the most trusted man in town it carries a great message what happened to the guy I don't know I don' t know I don''t know that's a good question yep I don ''t know but he made amends to the town maybe I don'T know what happened to the guy good question that's one research fact I didn't have caught me got me I know yeah I'll get it next year oh believe me there are people who know this book and misspellings and flip flops like you wouldn't believe oh my god I was talking to Kent about something that I thought was I said this seems like this guy has the wrong dust jacket on it and he says maybe AA did the wrong dust jacket and I thought oh boy I'm going to get a lesson in history now I'm gonna get some good stuff and he did, he really knows his historical books, our big books, the ins and outs and the mistakes and how you determine one from another I had a good lesson there so here he I love that story because I love the attitude about it many times we'll have I'll have the question of I was unfaithful to my husband, my spouse, my partner? What do I do about that? Do I tell them? Do I not tell them?" I don't make that decision. I do not make that decision of a yes or a no. I use the guideline in the book. That's on page 81. It starts with whatever the situation, we usually have to do something about it. If we are sure Our wife does not know. Should we tell her? Not always, we think. If she knows in a general way that we have been wild, should we tell Her in detail? Undoubtedly, we should admit our fault. She may insist on knowing all the particulars. She will want to know who the woman is and where she is. We feel we ought to say to her that we are sorry for what we have done and, God willing, it shall not be repeated. more than that I cannot do I have no right to go further though there may be justifiable exceptions and though we wish to lay down no rule of any sort we have often found this the best course to take so I don't make those decisions each person has to do that for themselves it's a very touchy touchy thing on the next page on page 82 the third paragraph down it's second sentence it says sometimes we, I hearing alcoholics say that the only thing I need to do is keep sober certainly I must keep sober for there will be no home if I don't but I am yet a long way from making good to the wife or parents whom for years I have so shockingly treated. Next paragraph. And this, again, when I read a lot of this literature, I think not just pre-AA drinking days, I think about right now, right here, sober recovery life too. And it says in that next paragraph, the alcoholic and I know I at one time seemed to be like the tornado roaring my way through the lives of others. Hearts are broken, sweet relationships are dead and affections have been uprooted. And I was very guilty of this. Selfish and inconsiderate habits have kept the home in turmoil. I feel a man is unthinking when he says sobriety is enough. This kind of lends us into often we hear about direct amends and we hear about living amends neither replaces the other you need to do both and we'll talk about that more in a second so going on top of 83 yeah there's a long period of reconstruction ahead. I must take the lead a remorseful mumbling, I'm sorry won't fill the bill at all. First of all they've heard it ad nauseum, they don't believe it it's hot air so that ain't going to cut it. It says I ought to sit down with the family and frankly analyze the past as I now see it being very careful not to criticize them. Their defects may be glaring, but the chances are that my own actions are partly responsible. So I clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that my creator show me the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness, and love. The spiritual life is not a theory. I have to live it. This is an action program here. A few lines down it says, my behavior will convince them more than my words. What are your actions? Do your actions back up your words? If you're making amends to this person for behavior, are you doing it that afternoon? The next day? The word amend is to correct. What am I correcting here? So that's what I want to ask myself. What is it that I'm making amends for? That's why we need to be really clear before we do that. The next paragraph says, There may be some wrongs I can never fully right. I don't worry about them if I can honestly say to myself that I would write them if i could. Some people can't be seen. I send them an honest letter. and there may be a valid reason for postponement in some cases but I don't delay if it can be avoided here again is a guide for me I should be sensible, tactful, considerate and humble without being servile or scraping as God's people I stand on my feet I don t crawl before anyone the promises indicated here are the most commonly referred to in our book and as we know as I mentioned last night there's those folks who have promises for every step, I'm not that clever to know what they are and I just would rather try to live it than worry about too much intellectual activity but often times in my area we hear the promises read in the meeting however we don't indicate that these are after the ninth step so it kind of can imply well just come in and don't drink and these things will happen to you this is you know get sober win prizes kind of thing and this is after this is half way through our ninth out of twelve steps and what I love is the phrase and I've used this often in different things in my life it says if I'm painstaking which painstacking means deliberate care or effort not like painstanking hurtful it's deliberate effort if I am painstiking about this phase of my development, which says to me that I've been in phases. Surrender, discovery, defects, amends, and then continuing the growth. This is another phase of my development taking responsibility for my actions. I'm going to be amazed before I'm halfway through these amends. Now I'm not saying that some or many of these things you haven't touched your life before you got to step 9 not at all but I think there's a lot more probability of impact when you're at this point of their ability to stick more to you instead of be fleeting at this time at this point you've done an awful lot of work by the time you've gotten halfway through your amends so we hear about these promises I'm going to know a new freedom and a new happiness those definitions will be different for us I will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it I will comprehend the word serenity and I will know peace no matter how far down the scale I have gone I will see how my experience can benefit others that feeling of uselessness and self-pity will disappear we will lose interest in selfish things and gain interest in my fellows self-seeking will slip away my whole attitude and outlook upon life will change fear of people and of economic insecurity Purity will leave me. I will intuitively know how to handle situations which used to baffle me. And I love this, I will suddenly realize that God is doing for me what I could not do for myself. And a lot of times in my private thinking it's could not and would not do for myself many things have been removed from my life that by gosh they had claw marks on them. You know, no, no, no, don't go. but he said no I got something better you can't have the next thing coming in if you got this thing in there it's just that movement of life are these extravagant promises we don't think so it says they're being fulfilled among us sometimes quickly and sometimes slowly but they will always materialize if you work for them. Again, not because you're cute, not because you got a new job or got a haircut. You have done the work to make these things come about. You have prepared yourself for this experience. So before we talk a little bit more about nine, any more about eight? Any more questions on eight? The making of the list and preparing and becoming ready to make the amends. Laura? On the card, when you were saying on the card you put the person's name and then what else do you put on it? What are the amends to make to that person? So you have a focus. You don't put what you did to them. You just put the amens, what you want to give to the aments not what you've done, what harm you've given them You want to acknowledge the harms you've done. What are those? I mean it can just simply be lied, stole your gold coins I mean, it doesn't even have – it's just making sure that you're acknowledging your harm is done. Question on amends. I have an amends that I'm very willing to make and have been for a long time, but I can't find the person, so I'm making my living amends to my current wife. But you said that the direct amends and living amens, they both must be done. so what do I do if I can't find my former wife it's a good question there well first of all one way that I'm going to try to find I attempted to find was through you can google people's names and try to when I remembered his name best as I could I thought oh my god I didn't know how many people had that last name and I'm not sure if it has an S on it or didn't have an S I can remember it's been so long as long as you have made the attempts whether it's through family or whatever you've exhausted those kind of resources staying ready is what's best of you behaving as a better husband to your current wife is excellent that would be the way to also make those living amends as to being that better husband that's what I get an opportunity to do too I wasn't the greatest wife in my first marriage and I'm a whole lot better in my second so it's my opportunity to have a do-over too so just stay willing absolutely, stay willing if you ever run into her you'll know when you've had that I would love to make them yeah, great the danger is when we're unwilling to make like it says there may be some people we can't ever see for whatever reason yeah was there a hand when you're writing your little amends card I've heard some people as sponsors direct their sponsees that they have to include this line here at the bottom of 77 and say something like I will never get over my drinking until I have done my utmost to straighten out the past. Do you recommend including that, or what is your opinion on that statement when you're making a comment? I haven't said it. I don't make the comment to say it. If they choose to, that's on their own. So that's not in my circle of saying things, but we'll talk in a second about the action and the procedure that I suggest for making them or what I've done, too. Yeah? Oh, I just wondered, on the card it was the name, harm's done, and that's it? Yep, so that you're ready. Okay. You won't forget. The other thing was you said deliberate. I couldn't write fast enough. See, that's where I should have given it. Does anybody remember what I said? Deliberate. You said it was deliberate something. The word is deliberate something, deliberate. I don't remember, sis. You have to listen to the tape. Yeah, you have to pay back on Dan's question. I've heard some sponsors for those type of remand where we push down in front of people. So they'll still have the spontaneity to write out the amends, maybe share it and do some type of ceremony. What's your opinion on that? That's a great way too. That would be kind of, I can see easily doing that and sort of putting it out in God's world but always ready to do the actual direct amendment. That would mean that they're going to be able to do it and that would be something to free them knowing that they would always be ready. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I personally, I was so glad in the eighth step that you could add. I think I had more people, because I never resented my parents, but, you know, that I really owe the men's to that I have no resentment or anything against. So I'm really, really grateful for step eight and a little bit of changes in the words in the 12 and 12. Yeah. My question is, when your sponsor is wanting to make amends to somebody, but they happen to be not aware of their shortcomings or their defensive character, that actually led to that incident happening in the beginning with that individual that they wanted to apologize to. Is it a wise thing to encourage them to go ahead and apologize and make amendments? or are we just setting them up for them to do it again with somebody else or with the same person what's the wise decision on that one because I know it's either a defective character or a shortcoming that led to that incident to begin with so back in the steps before that if they haven't worked out those issues is this the right thing to do or should they already know that they won't do it against with that person or another person in the future Well, I think if the shortcoming still exists, do you make amends to that person regarding that shortcoming that still hasn't been changed, basically? Because our defects will be a lifetime job in addressing those and trying to keep them in check through our process here, I don't know that I would be able to even suggest, well, wait a minute, this could be 10 years before you get this under control. I think it depends upon the defect. I think It depends upon The amends to be made. If it's, let's say, infidelity, well, definitely they should probably stop having that behavior before they make amends to their spouse for being wild, as it says. Otherwise that clearly is not going to be much appreciated. So using that, again, what you probably are thinking of something specific, but our defects, some of our actions and behavior, if gambling's a problem and I've been stealing all the money from the household and I'm sober now and I was gonna and I've still gambling well sorry honey I paid stolen all the rent but I just did it again I mean to amend is to correct that behavior what am i correcting what's my willingness to make these changes on that to somebody, you're also saying at the same time that you're never going to do it again. I mean, that's kind of unspoken, but is that the truth? That's the goal, to say never can be a setup also. Yeah, that was right. I forgot about that. And, I mean while that might be in our heart at the moment we're giving that amend, we don't ever want to harm them again in this fashion that I'm amending, it could be that I do that again And, you know, am I going to set this up for a bigger boomy or not? So it depends upon what is the amend. And this is why talking to your sponsor first about it because, so again, so any other comments on eight, making the list and identifying the amends? Okay, so let's now take nine and look at, it says, made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. And here's the process and again I got this from listening to Clint and added some things to it but I really liked that. First of all, you've got your card you know what your list is in the 12 and 12 it gives us the several classes it says in the second paragraph I'll just read those to you but that's where I'm getting this this is in the 12 and 12 but the second paragraph talks about the classes of amends there will be those who ought to be dealt with just as soon as we become reasonably confident that we can maintain our sobriety there will be those to whom we can make only partial restitution lest complete disclosures do them or others more harm than good there will be other cases where action ought to be deferred and still others in which by the very nature of the situation we shall never be able to make direct personal contact at all so it gives us some classes of amends now many of you will come upon experiences of amends that do I make amends to my old drug dealer in some cases that had a very positive effect in some cases that is highly discouraged you know you and your sponsee better And if you're not sure, go to your sponsor. My point is I don't want to share any hard and fast rulings on anything here. But you're going to come upon stuff like that. Amends to my husband I've been cheating on. Again, you two talk about it. Use the guidelines set down in the book and make your decision from there. so we have our cards and the basic flow looks like this to me you contact the person are you available to meet for coffee the point being is don't do like lunch and then a weekend just go and do your business I usually suggest to them that they allow an hour and again they'll know what the situation is maybe this will only take 15 or 20 minutes but allow an hour but always have a place to go afterwards like a meeting have a meeting perhaps scheduled or meet with an AA friend let's say they've set up a coffee date or something and that's better than lunch because you've always got interruptions from the server and they're doing their job but you don't get the continuity go to some place neutral if possible or worst case if they are most comfortable in their home and that's an okay place for you to go that's fine but make it the best place for them got your date, you got your location you arrive and you just basically attend to your business and that might sound like a lot of different things it might sound likes thanks for taking the time to meet with me you may know that I've become a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and I've been sober for X period of time part of our 12 step program is to make amends for harms we've done you might say something like that You might say, I've been doing some inventorying of myself and I've seen that I've done some harms to you and I want to make amends. It's up to you. You know the individual you're dealing with. Do you want to let them know you're an AA or is it better that you don't? Again, no hard and fast rule. You and your sponsor can work out the right verbiage on that. But here are the harms that I recall that I did and I regret that I have done these. Da-da, da-da. Now as I experienced it and I've learned and have incorporated through my own experiences a full amends would look something like this that these are the known harms that I've done to you then I followed up with in any others I may have done that I don't know about how can I make this right? at that point, they're given an opportunity to talk. Is there anything you would like to say? And you have the opportunity to listen. Now, you might not like what you hear. You don't get to debate it. This is their opportunity to get some healing perhaps too. This is not just for you. It's also for them. this is not to put them in a worse place it's to give them an opportunity to heal but even though you don't remember a thing they're talking about you don'T get to debate it now this is also only a one time opportunity they get there isn't a plan option B that in a week I'll remember some more stuff let's get together this is a one time only opportunity and when they say these things Yes. How did you preface that? What was your statement to them? Is there anything you would like to say, how can I make this right? In this opportunity you're given, even if you do remember the incident and it is like were we even at the same place at the time, it's irrelevant. this is a hurt that they have had since that time I don't care if it's correct or not, to them it's dead on just like the hurts done to me were dead on and the way I remember it is the right way and theway it happened right so this is now you've got to listen carefully to when they say, if they give you some feedback, how can I make this right? And they give You some feedback. If you need to write that down, you write it down. It's imperative that you begin from that moment on to show that you are amending your way of life. That you are changing who you are. Let's say you make amends to your mother and she says, well, you know what? I'd like you to stay in touch. why don't you call me every week by God you set a date and time for yourself you call your mother it's not every two weeks if she said every week it's every week and you don't miss that commitment this is how we change this is the demonstration it's my hot air I cannot emphasize the importance of doing what you say you're going to do. Don't expect you're going to remember it, write it down. Somehow keep that commitment. Direct amends have been done, now the living begin. A couple of examples. I had a sponsee who was sober a number of years and it seemed as though there was the relationship with their mother had always been a little on the strained side, a little assuming she sounds like she says this and she says that about me and this and that. He said, tell me about the amends. Have you ever, as we were going through the steps, have you ever made amends to her? Well, I'm a good daughter. I make living amends It's not direct. Your mother may have a lot of things to say but you've never given her that window of opportunity. Pretending like, well, if I'm just a good daughter, we don't have to look at the past, isn't going to cut it. You've always got this under the rug and it's getting the size of an elephant now. It's not the anthill anymore. I said, I'd really like to see you make that point to make direct amends when you see her next time. If nothing else, just see what happens. Because there were direct amens to make. what happened is they had and got to begin a new relationship the mother commented on some things she felt bad about again that wasn't the point the point was to acknowledge my harms that I've done you again we talk direct amends if we don't follow it up with living amends this was a bunch of hot air if we don't do if we do living but no direct we haven't begun the healing process my most difficult amends was to my stepmother when I was in that treatment center and four weeks goofy I mean, I don't know you know, I'm just bumbling and okay, okay just doing whatever they told me to do I was supposed to call her and make amends I was suppose to call our mom I mean cut my arm off it would be less painful it was just so phony oh my god and I was supposed to make amens and her response was oh well ok there was no amends made there wasn't an ounce of feeling it might as well have been a rock to a rock it was absolutely ridiculous So now I'm doing that inventory at the end of my sixth year and really feeling almost like I'm taking the steps because I've got some clarity for the very first time. And I get to this immense, and this is the most difficult, and this Is where I knew forgiveness. If I accomplished nothing else, I have to have a forgiveness here because I can't go forward without it. and I was able to get that peace within of forgiveness. All I could track down, this was in the mid-'80s, early-'80S, was a post office box was all I had on her. She doesn't list her phone number. The Internet was not around to Google her down, and so I had this post officebox. So I wrote this letter of amends. Now, I agree that I should have had my sponsor look at this, but I did not, and at the time I sent off this letter of amends. It wasn't bad. I'm not saying it was horrible, but it probably could have been much better. But I knew and felt free. But now because I am listed in the phone book and findable, about a month later I got a phone call from her. some things happened during that experience number one the minute I heard her voice my gut did not go I wasn't in bondage anymore didn't own me anymore I thought dang this works we talked for a moment and this was a great revelation for me the things that I made amends for of the harms that I felt I had done, she never remembered. But she sure remembered a whole lot of other things. And honest to God, I had no memory. This is where I got to listen to her hurts be expressed, kind or not, it was irrelevant. And I could say things, I'm so sorry that happened to you. I'm sorry that I did that. I'm sorry you felt that way. Acknowledged she's speaking, she had a hurt, she was, how can I make this right? She didn't really have any kind of an answer. We hung up and I realized, again to add that part in any other harms I've caused that I'm not aware of so that because otherwise I had felt that well I've covered them all. When I made my amends I covered them off. I didn't even hit the tip of the iceberg in her opinion ok so now that's now I'm 7 years sober so fast forward 8 years later my relationship with her didn't all of a sudden become wonderful and now we're vacationing together or doing anything like that it just went on its way so I'm 15 years sober now I'm actually up in the North Dakota area, and she lived in Fargo, and I was about an hour away, and I would learn that she's dying and probably won't see Thanksgiving from colon cancer. This is early November, and Thanksgiving's in about three weeks. Now, I made the decision, you know, our business over the years has been done. I think in these last days she needs the people around her that really love her, and I'm not in that category. I wish her well at a distance, but the people who really love her need to be there with her. So I went about my business and a few weeks later she would die. And again, I had no guilt. Everything was current. It was up to date. I get a call from her half-brother and he says, did you know that she was NAA? What? You're kidding. Oh my God. How long did she have a sponsor? Where was her home? And he said, well, she was in about 10 years. But she was so anonymous, she didn't even let any of us know until she was five years in. So 10 years... Wait a minute now. Eight years ago we had a conversation. I made amends to her, but she called me... I wonder why she didn'T make amends for me. She had been two years at that time. Huh. So that's my first thought, right? Then I remembered a couple years later, I had been on two weekends back-to-back. Again, this was pre-cell phones, and so I came in from a trip and there was a message from her. She and her daughter were on her way to Florida. We'll call you next weekend. Now I have no way to let them know I'm not going to be here next weekend, so they made the round through, called again, and I'm out of town. Not there. it wasn't any way to let her know that and so I thought about that and I thought maybe that was her attempt or whatever to make amends, I will never know but the really bottom line was her making amends to me was never on the table never a requirement on my part it was mine to make my amends to her that's what was going to be setting me free not her making them to me. So when I look at those amends, and that was my biggest teacher, I was free. I was freer. Now I know many people in here have lots of experiences on amends and I think hearing amends stories are some of my favorite stories that people do. But you'll come upon a variety of them. And again, there'll be some, should I go to this person and make amends? I'm not here to try to answer that for everybody. You'll have to look at the situation with you and the sponsee. What are the amends if you don't know? Consult your sponsor. Consult an old-timer. But the willingness to make them is what's key. Maybe they've died. Many people have written that letter and taken it to the gravesite. read it to the grave I know that my grandmother I wasn't a very good granddaughter to and she was many states away I didn't stay in touch she had Alzheimer's I certainly could have done lots of things cards and what not, I didnít and I felt badly about that and as my way of making amends we took on some commitments at a senior center in our area up there and I would go visit people with our little dog and make visits and we brought Christmas and Santa Claus out there and stuff like that. And that was my way to sort of even out the karma, if you will, and to give back to people who had no family. And those were the people that we targeted. Again, I'm not sharing that to make... Oh, aren't you wonderful, Debbie? Please don't... I'm just giving you an example of how I was sober when that was happening when she was in that home. I was sober. I could have done some things, but I didn't. But I found a way to try to balance that out spiritually within myself because that was an action I could take. Okay. Comments, questions, shares? Debbie, one of the things since I've been sober is I hear people say, and it just goes against how I personally feel, but they say make amends no matter how you feel. And it's almost like you do it with unfeeling kind of a thing. That's how I hear it, maybe that's not how that's being said. But I think there, as you said, there should be some depth to it and some sincerity. Why do it? I mean, if you're really not going to follow through and go, do you know what I mean? So what's your feeling on that? do you think people should just make amends whether they feel it or only I'm not saying not make aments because I'm feeling it right now kind of a thing do you want to comment on that Daniel mine is kind of like part of that question so you can answer both I went to go make an amends and when I got there I had a change of heart and I didn't make the amends and that was years ago and I'm sure I'm willing to make those amends today but it's had to be something I've had to deal with in sobriety so what do you do when something like that happens? Well, to address Keith's there's that period of time where I would like to have that willingness and to progress in recovery and have a connection to my amends that I do feel badly for the action I did and that I want to try to set that wrong right if possible. To do it like I did the first amends to the stepmother was pointless. To make amends for the amends I make, don't want to do that. And that certainly can happen. Again, I think reviewing with your sponsor the situation, what is the amends, how to go about doing it. I mean, I might not feel completely engulfed in the emotion of it, but a willingness, it never tells us we have to, the emotional state of mind we haveと be in, but we do have to have the willingness. And I want to grow. I do want to change. And this will be part of it. as far as what you're talking about Daniel just like the guy that could not did not want to meet his creator after consulting with his wife and partner he came to the conclusion that it was better to take those risks than to stand before his creator guilty of such ruinous slander I'm not sure of course what the amend is and what made you change your mind. But sometimes this one amend that I need to track down happened many decades ago. And I played in my mind, is it a big deal? No, yes, no, yes. But this is what comes to my mind. Do I really want to meet my creator knowing I did nothing about an amend that I truly owe, that I was the kind of an example of AA and an employee like that, that I can justify and not clean that up. I don't want to. Maybe I could do it 10 years ago, but I can't do it today. So leaving that on your plate, that will be up to you. I think any amends that I owe for my actions, I don't think there's a question whether I want to make it or not. I do need to make the decision. And this is kind of one of those part of those things we talked about like things that happen in childhood that and I hate to use the word victim in this room, you know, but where in a sense a person could be a victim, so to speak and yet because that weighed on their life for many many times and they drank over it, it's like okay, you won't amend. and I was like, well, why? And then somebody gave me a reason why and I wrote to the sponsor and I said, okay. And then when I got there, that person was still the same way and it was like I just want to get out of here. I don't feel like I owe anything. And then I leave and I'm like, did I do the wrong thing? These are the good ones to take to our God to help change my heart to help change my way of thinking to open up that channel. Because it's never about them changing, it's about me changing. About my bondage, not theirs. This little fellow that I can think of was a boss to me. And I don't know why the last few months it's been on my mind and I'm thinking I was his example of AA for some years, early years. Not a good one. And I would like to change that if it's possible. It's been decades, but I'd like to fix that mark on my record of that. I don't even know if he would remember me probably, but you know what I'm saying. No, I went to, this is years before I came to AA. And I always carry some guilt inside of me about an incident that happened with my best friend in junior high. We took on the school since, I think, third grade all the way through high school. And I kind of left him out in order to save myself and my sister. And years later, I still was carrying that guilt. And I saw him one day. I went up to visit my mom in Oakland. I was living here. And I saw him on Piedmont Avenue up in Oakland. And I went up to him and I said, hey, Anthony, what's going on? And he said, Hey, Richard, I haven't seen you in years. What's he doing? I said. No, I'm just hanging out. And I said you know there's something I've got to say. And he says what is it? I said I'm sorry about the incident. You know and I talked to him about that. It was a kidnapping and he was getting beat up by the kidnappers. and it was just basically a group of older kids from the high school, Skyline High that had come down from junior highs and elementary schools and was taking kids off their school ground and beating them up, robbing them. They had me and my sister and me and our friends and it wasn't my idea to meet in the school grounds to go smoke a cigarette and they were beating him up because I had the bright idea to say that I had four older brothers and he said he was the oldest of his family so they chose him and I had to worry about my sister so I sent one of my friends over the fence because they had a sandwich we bring two houses and I said go back to school and get principal and get the police you know and I always felt the guilt of leaving him and watching him get beat up and they were just pounding on his face and the whole time they didn't know that one of their friends had jumped over the bench in his room and I felt the guilty and he looked at me see that's the way I saw it and he said you know what Richard You're my best friend. He said, I always tell everybody that. He said even though I haven't seen you in years. He said once you did help end it faster than it would have ended. And he said, you don't owe me an apology. And it was just different because I always felt that I did owe him an apology because he was my best client. And he didn't feel that way at all. It's a great story because it reminds me the power of amends. And I think all of us probably have that experience that we've seen. But let me share one story with you. Again, Clint used to talk about this story and I've never forgotten it. He talked about a sponsee of his who had done a lot of burglaries, especially in this one particular neighborhood. And he had said to him, You need to make amends to these places. And he's like, really? That could be a problem. But he became willing to do that. And he went to each of these homes and he made amends to let them know that he had been the one who had done that. And, of course, the insurance had been reimbursed and all this kind of stuff. but there was one home that he just couldn't seem to get anybody at home when he went there. And finally this time, he knocked on the door and the lady of the house answered and he explained why he was there. And she says, oh, would you come in just a minute? And he's like, oh God. So the husband comes out and she said, would state your business. and he had said that he had been the one that burglarized their home in this and that year. And they began to cry. They said, you have no idea what this means to us because for all these years we thought our son did it. The healing for that family because of somebody trying to right a wrong could never have been foreseen. Could never have been foreseen. We don't know how these amends are going to turn out, but I really believe that if I'm really trying to do the right thing and I'm not going off all goofy and saving the world and stuff like that, and I've got good guidance. Talks about we might get thrown out of their office. We might not. But we've done our part. We've tried to right a wrong. Some won't be righted and some won't see us and some we can't see. But if our spirit is one of trying to live differently, the spirit of forgiveness, the Spirit of trying to set it right I don't think we can do wrong. Each person each amend is on its own review. Yeah. And then Barbara. kind of piggyback on that or segue into my question I'm stuck on what we read on page 79 where it says well, it says we may lose our position and reputation or face jail but we are willing, we have to be we must not shrink at anything what if that's a potential outcome is going to jail I think you need to know that. This is why you consult the people who could be affected, because your family or your business or whatever, that could happen. We don't come in here jolly jumping jacks. We come in hier with a lot of baggage, a lot wreckage. Should we not have to be responsible for our behavior? some of it might have some consequences I mean we were thinking about it when we did it at the time but there may be some things that have consequences it reads I think in the 12 and 12 where we talked about it where to do so could cause like I said a bad injury or harm I've heard sponsors say if I make an amends to a person and I go to jail it's not going to hurt the person but it's going to hurt my family because there goes the income is that justifiable this is what um is there's a story like that noted in here about the man had divorced and didn't pay alimony to the first wife and she was going to send him to jail and he says well I apologize for my behavior and here's some money and if you still want me to go to jail okay and of course the thing was resolved the point being is that the guy took responsibility and took action. You consult when there's potential consequences, like you're describing, you consult the people who would be affected. Oftentimes there's not, but there could be.