Charlie P. and Katie P. on Step 5 — Part 7 of 10 — Sandy B.

The fifth step is just to sit and let the guy read his fourth step because that's still, for my money, a solitary self-appraisal. He's just sitting there listening to me read what my take is on it and listen to what it says because it gives the requirements. It says it's important that this guy be able to keep the confidence. This is the bottom page 74. That he fully understand and approve what I'm driving at and that he will not change my plan. And it says when we decide who's to hear our story, We have a written inventory, and we're prepared for a long talk. We explain to our partner what we're about to do and why we have to do it. What are we about to doing? We're about trying to face and be rid of the things in ourselves that are blocking me from this power. That's what we'RE trying to do. If I had to explain to somebody what I do, I go, I've got to get close to this power, and these are the things, the way the book lines it out, that I think are blocking ME. Okay, now let me jump in here and finish my train of thought on this, listening to this inventory. The other thing that Mark used to say, he says, you know, some people say I take this stuff very seriously, and it says he should realize that he is engaging upon a life or death errand. That's how crucial this stuff is. We're not talking about a self-help program. We're talking about people living and dying in AA. Can we have a ball? Absolutely. But at the same time, I take this, my husband didn't make it. He did not make it, I'm not blaming anybody. But this is serious stuff, you know, when it hits you that hard. So when I'm on this... Some people act like they're going to get it eventually, and a lot of us don't. Yeah, there's a lot Of us don' t. A lot of people that don't make It. Yeah. And so when you're doing that fact-finding mission, so you're getting all this information, getting all This information, and then we go into the third column. I like to do a little bit more of an expanded third column where I take the words of the, still the language of the book, but it says when we, you know, sex relationships, self-esteem, pride, personal relationships, security. I take those and I want you to tell me how you see yourself. So when you say your self-esteem was affected, how do you see yourself in this relationship? I'm a great wife. I'm the loving mother. I'm good sister, right? That's your self-esteem. When it says your pride is how you think others see you. They think I'm needy. They think that I'm not worthy of raising my own children. Then you go to ambitions is what you want. Security is what we need, right, to make these things be okay. Then it says personal relationships are your deep-seated old beliefs, old ideas. In We Agnostics, it talks about prejudice. I've always believed the word prejudice was against race. I mean that's just simple-minded Katie. That's all it was, against religion, Catholics, Jewish, whatever. That's what I thought prejudice meant. I had no idea that it means prejudgment. So my old ideas are what I think about Katie. Men make more money than women. Men are stronger than women, men can be police officers and do heavy duty work, women can't, you name it. The children should be with the mother. Can you see the old ideas? Women must remain attractive all their lives, men can, you know, be overweight and balding and no problem, you know as long as they have money. You know what I'm saying? This is my old ideas. This is what I live on. This is What Drives Katie. It says we had to get rid of our old ideas, they were nil until let go absolutely or paraphrasing on how that is. That's what that third column is, guys, is what is it about Katie that makes these old ideas come alive? What is it that's killing Katie behind my belief system, my old ideals, my preconceived notions of life? And then, of course, it goes into that fourth column, which is the part of selfish, self-centered and self-seeking. Once again, I need to go down in self- Seeking and I need to see how was I, what were my actions in self seeking that caused these problems? I've got to get down to the causes and conditions, man. So I've Got Something to Take to God in 6 and 7. Prejudice here, I looked it up for you, says We're almost done. I know. Prejudice says previous and unfavorable bias, prejudgment without due examination. Now, the other... Oh, no, wait. Go ahead. Go ahead? He wanted to share. I'm telling you, Glenn, you'll have to tell us what you think about this. I can't edit this. No, I tell you. Let's share this stuff. I love going back and forth, but that implies going back and forth. Okay. you know uh so ever so you know what so now we're doing this fifth step with this guy and it's funny there's really not a lot of instructions in the book on how to hear a fifth step it tells me how to write a fourth step but now listen what it says after it talks about you know who to pick what what spirit to take into and that sort of thing it basically says we pocket our pride and go to it illuminating every twist of character every dark cranny of the past those are really all the instructions for hearing a fifth set but i called up a friend of mine one time and i said you know scott i'm a bit of a technician i've studied this book and i'm very adamant about doing it the way the book lays it out to do it i said and i've seen the instructions on how to do a resentment inventory and how to deal with fear inventory what to take from that fair inventory and how to do a sex inventory and what to look for and the nine questions to ask and that sort of thing. I said, where is the piece where it says what's the worst thing you've ever done? Because how many of you have heard that in the rooms about what'stheworstthingyou'veeverdone? And he said, well, it's in the fifth step. It's in The Fifth Step. It says, first of all, illuminating means to shine light upon. Illuminating every twist of character, every dark cranny of the past. So obviously, a hearing of fifth step is not just listening to a recitation of their fourth step. I'm supposed to get in there and say, you know, what is every dark cranny of the past? Are there any twists of character that didn't make that? Because I can't tell you how many times. And when you're hearing inventory, by now, if I'm through the work and I'm up in 10, 11, and 12, it implies that I'm going to have intuitive thought and that God's going to speak to me. And if I'm unblocked, it says we come to rely upon it. It calls it an essential sixth sense, this intuitive thought. Well, I tell you, it shows up when you're here in inventory because you'll be here in the inventory with a guy and there's a part of me that thinks he's not bringing it. I can tell when the guy sits down sometimes. This guy's already made up his mind what he's now going to tell me, you know. And we'll sit down and we'll start going and we get to the end, you Know, and with one of my favorite guys, we're here at the inventory and we had read everything And I said, is that everything? And he goes, yeah. Yeah, that's everything. I said really because, you know, the book talks about we hang on to some of the worst things from our past. We hang on, hang on the worst items in stock and those are the things that block us the most. You know, do you have anything else you want to talk about? He goes, no, not really. I said because I know for me in my story, I had a lot of shame about, you know, this and that, you know, that happened. And then he goes. OK, there's something else, you know, and I said OK, you know, how comes that, And when that one didn't kill him, he goes, and there's something else. And sometimes you can draw that out of a person. But when it says illuminating everything, that to me are those places where we talk about what are the things that you're going to take to your grave and you're never going to tell anybody. And there's a lot of reasons to bring most of this stuff in my inventory, but remember when we said that this process is driven by my first step experience? There's only one thing that's going to make me tell everything, and it's the fact that if I don't feel like if I get unblocked, I'm going to drink again. I'm gonna get uncomfortable enough that if i don't bring it that eventually i'm gonna drink again and that's when i want to go okay i don' t want to talk about this stuff but i don''t want to drink vodka so here's what happened. Now i have to jump into this because we only have about six minutes left nine minutes left okay it says once we've taken this step withholding nothing which is what charlie's talking about the deepest darkest secrets we are delighted now remember i said there's two places that it talks about uh that we are to be get rid of this promptly and without regret yes and then it says we will be delighted that promise right there tells me we're to uncover discover and discard not uncover discover and rub it on ourselves right i'm telling you that self-pity you watch yourself when all of a sudden you see things from an entirely different angle you are ashamed at yourself I had a sponsor who called me on the way home one time, and he goes, I'm not delighted. He said, I feel like we just spent three and a half hours with you pointing out all the ways that I'm selfish and self-centered, you know, and this and that. And I was like, that's when we had to talk about that thing about properly and without regret. Don't turn this into self-pity because that's just another manifestation. And then what it says here, it says, we can look the world in the eye. These are the fifth step promises. We can look at the world with the eye of our eyes. We can be alone in perfect peace and ease. You've got to see how many times the book says be alone at perfect peace and ease. That, to me, is the comfort that we took when we took the drink. The very first drink was the peace and easy. Yes, that's what we wanted. I mean, how many of you guys just went, all I need is one drink? Man, I just want one drink. Unfortunately, we trigger an allergy. So we don't get just one drink or two drinks to take off the edge. It's interesting to point out here that it doesn't say we've finally got enough information now to manage our fears. It says our fears fall from us. it says we begin to feel the nearness of our creator we have had certain spiritual beliefs but now we begin to have a spiritual experience the feeling that the drink problem has disappeared will often come strongly that right there is why would you want anyone to take a year to do inventory it to me is absolutely insane I'm taking a risk we were just talking about this John and I were just talk about this that has become the norm If that was your experience, you're passing on your experience and I say shame on you. Read the book. The book does not say that. Why in the world do we want to risk somebody's life because it worked for me? We should do an inventory and do it quickly. It's what the book reflects. Bill and Bob were all doing it fast. And all of a sudden, you know, the semantics, we lose the semastics and my children's children's children are not going to have this is going to be the AA program take what you like and leave the rest right and so that's what I'm saying is there is there is I get very very passionate in this because you can tell we got five minutes I'm going to bring it home here this is the back and forth honey I am going to vote Glenn Glenn I need your help here to tell him this I just want to say one quick thing here. I love the back and forth. Now that we've done this inventory with something, it says returning home. We find a place where we can be quiet for an hour. I'll tell you, that kitchen table AA that we do at my house on Thursday night, one time Mark went off on a rant about the hour after the fifth step. When we talk about listening to the CDs because you can't take in sometimes everything you're trying to hear, I'll never forget Chad was sitting there at that table. He kept looking at me and looking at Mark, and he was looking at me like, are you getting this? And he told me later, he goes, that talk that Mark did on the hour after the fifth step, he said, I think I got about 10% of what he said. And that 10% revolutionized that hour for me. I mean, before I would have said, just go home and hang out for an hour and think about what we've done. But Mark was like, man, he says, when you go home, it says, we thank God from the bottom of our heart. That's a prayer that we know him better. Taking this book down from the shelf, we turn to the page which contains the 12 steps. Carefully reading the first five proposals, we consider them in all their implications. Do I believe I have a hopeless condition of mind and body? Do I belief in the absence of a spiritual experience that I will get loaded again? Do I belive that this power can take care of all the problems in my life? And do I believe that if I'll get out of the way, he'll take care me if I stay close to him and perform his work well? Have I gone in his inventory and removed the stuff that's blocking me? Did I talk to somebody else about it? You know, am I holding anything back? Is this power going to take me? And that's the stuff we go home and we spend an hour in. And it talks about, you know, have we admitted anything? For we're building an arch through which we shall walk a free man. As our work saw it so far. And it talked about that arch. And then it rolls into 6 and 7. The first time I did 6 and 8, I was like, oh, my God, I'm going to die. 6 and 9, we got, what do we got? We can bring 6 and 5 into 8 and 9. We're going to bring 6and7 into 8and9. We keep pushing it back. But, I mean, can you see how much depth can come out of this inventory and the fifth step process? I didn't want to just glaze over it. No. As a matter of fact, that is – and remember, the hour when you go home, the hours are the fifth steps. Remember how important the semantics are. The hour is not six and seven. It's part of the fifth. It's a part of five. It's the part of a fifth step. And I'm sorry I said shame on you. I know that's somewhat an inflammatory statement. That was a public tenth step. That was. I'm so sorry. You know, if that's how you do it, fine. But here's the deal. The importance, guys, is I am so big on the semantics. So that hour is you need to let them know that they need to go over that. They need to read a little bit out of We Agnostics. They need thank God from the bottom of their heart. They need look at the allergy. Do they really believe they've got all these things? and then that when they're when they go through 60 to 63 then all of a sudden they're looking at their four step have they omitted anything did what charlie said then we go into six and you literally answer the questions in six and say the prayer in seven but that's what we're going to talk about that when we come back but that'S WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT HOUR IS NOT ALL OF THAT AND MORE AND SO UM THAT WOULD BE THE FOURTH AND THE FIFTH STEP THERE WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A 15 MINUTE break, and we're going to come back at five minutes after four, and we're gonna finish six, seven, eight, nine, and then we're gunna have a wonderful dinner. Thanks for hanging in there, everybody. Y'all are doing a great job. Yeah. Oh, I do not like that. Okay. Welcome back, everybody, and I want to do a quick set-aside prayer. God, please help me set aside everything I think I know about myself, the big book, the steps, the program, the fellowship, and even you, God, so that I can have a new experience. Please help me to see the truth. Amen. A good friend of ours just drove up from Jersey. We want to welcome Chris to the gallery here. Some of you guys know him. Some of these guys, whether you're here or whether you listen to this on CD, if you don't know Chris S. from New Jersey, I recommend finding some CDs by him and listening to them because I learned a lot from this guy. He's a good friend of ours now, but he's the one that got us into doing our first workshop, and he runs pretty deep on this stuff. So if you're looking for CDs to listen to, keep that in mind. Don't let him hear me say that because it will make his head swell. But, you know, he's one of the guys that I really consider a friend and a mentor in this program. There's some people in this fellowship that run pretty deep. And I've been honored to know him. Another thing we've been doing, Chris, today is the one-year anniversary of Mark's death. So we've be burning a candle up here in his honor all day. I'm doing pretty good. I've only teared up about three times when I talk about him. There are certain phrases that I can't even, they're so marked that I can't ever get through them because it reminds me so much of the impact this guy had on my life to be wandering along in untreated alcoholism in trouble and to find ourselves in that workshop with him. This is the workshop. I brought it up so Glenn could rip it and make some copies of it. But when you talk about the hand of God, I mean, when God comes, He comes, and then, you know, and when I was talking about that workshop that we just wound up in the middle of, and even Mark one time looking at Katie, he goes, do you really think you had anything to do with being at that workshop that weekend? I mean, you were moved there by the power to put you in a place to be a – and you look at the ripple effect of what happened to us on that weekend and getting involved in the work at a whole other level and that sort of thing. And then when we put the tapes in, it gave me goosebumps, you Know, because we were listening to the first CD, and Mark comes on there, and he says, I haven't done one of these in over three years. He had gone silent for three years at one point. And so not only did we hear about this workshop, but we just happened to go to it. I don't know what made us go to It. That was not our style at the time. And then to find out that he hadn't done one like that in over 3 years, you just look at it and you go, there's an awful lot going on there. You know, we talked last night about how the book says when we look back, we see the things that came to us. But I try to say the line Mark used to say, discipline is the horse I ride. And we're going to get into that in Step 10 and 11. But the first time I tried to say it, I couldn't get it out of my mouth because he's a big believer in the disciplines of Steps 10 and11. Okay, now I'm going to do six. So. Back and forth, of course. Well, Jane said she loves it, so I'm going with what Jane says. You know, one of the things, too, I wanted to say, and I'm sorry, what was your name that we were just talking about? Paul. Paul and I were just walking. I do want to make a clarification. Remember, it's not in stone, the girl with girl and boy with boy thing. You know there's a lot of people that deviate from that plan. But what I'm saying is if, you know, as a woman, I get sick of hearing there are not enough strong women in AA. I can hear more there is not enough strong sponsorship, more than I can hear there are no enough strong woman. One of the things that I think is important is if in your area there isn't a strong woman, then you just take her through the work under the understanding that she is to get the women in her lineage and become the strong women in AA. We cannot continue to say there are not enough strong women in AA, I think not only are we reaffirming a very poor affirmation is we're keeping it alive and we're keepin' it alive by not saying your job, I sponsor 30 women and my whole deal is about you sponsoring period. How many sponsees do you have? How many Sponsees do you have? I mean that's what I'm going at. Karen, same thing with Karen. She did a sponsorship workshop at the house Yeah, well, Mark said to me, you know, he was one of the very first people who said there's not enough strong women in AA. So once a month for two years I did a sponsorship workshop, which I recorded it for my own personal people that were there. And I'm telling you, I must say the F word every three lines. I swear it is just downright terrible. And Karen said, would you send it to me? And I said, I cuss a lot on there, man. I don't know what happened. And she said, boy, you really do. And it's like an F this, an F that, and oh, whoa, whoa. You know how we women, when we all get together, we can rule the country. But what ended up happening for two years, I took a step a month. I had over 50 women showing up at my house strictly teaching them how to sponsor. This was not taking them through the steps. It was about sponsorship. And I told Mark, I said, by God, I have over 50 woman at my home. That are learning how to sponsored. And he said, that's why I told you there weren't enough strong women in AA, Katie. He said, I knew of all people you'd be going, see? Now tell me there's not enough strong woman in AA. Huh? What do you think about that? Sometimes you put that ego to work for good cause. Oh, yeah. Now I'm going to do this next episode. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I just took a sip. Okay. I knew it. I need a straw. This is a straw because he's going to jump in there on me. God, I'm telling you, this is where it's brother and sister. I'm liable to stab him in the hand here in a minute and draw blood so on page 76 it says if we can answer to our satisfaction what is that that's all the questions we just asked ourselves in the fifth step right remember the hour when you go home is the end of the fifth steps semantics are important so it says if we could answer to your satisfaction we look at step six Now, here is where I'm not real big on this, but some people are. I don't think the sixth step requires a tremendous amount of knowledge. I think it can be very dangerous for alcoholics. If we get into too much understanding our defects, I'm telling you we're going to lean towards wanting to fix them ourselves instead of letting God take them. The truth of the matter is I'm selfish and self-centered. I self-seek. When I get scared, I clearly get cocky. I got a level of pride that has worked well for me. It's also a double-edged sword, right? Are you with me on these things? I just need to go to God and ask for him to remove them. And if I get too deep into this work, I just get too much knowledge. It's not a good thing for this alcoholic. That's just my opinion. It says we emphasize willingness as being indispensable. indispensable indispensable means absolutely necessary if we emphasize willingness as being indispensable the only other things in life i think are indispensable is water air and food right can't go very far without those it's saying willingness is that important and i believe a lot of that is because of spiritual principle spiritual law we god gave us free will he gave us free will to do whatever we want i could go jump off a building if i want to right i'd go rob a bank if I wanted to. I could go have an affair if I needed to. There's a lot of things I can do. I try to live along spiritual principle. I try to stay connected to this power. This power says the only way I can enter is through you asking. Isn't that kind of cool? So God says you've got to be willing. You've got to come to me with this level of willingness. A friend of ours likes to say that God is a gentleman. He doesn't go where he's not invited and he doesn't stay where he's not made welcome. That's exactly right. He says, are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable? That is a question that they're asking us. And I'll tell you, I held on to a level of my... You remember I told you I left home at 15. I'm this tough little broad. I lived in this little house. The shrimp boats pulled up behind me. I am this tough, little gal. I will get in the middle of a fight when I know I don't even know how to throw a punch. But that's just my nature. I mean, Charlie got in this fight in the airport, and I swear it was the most awkward thing. We're walking along, and this guy comes barreling down on the elbows of Charlie's 87-year-old mother. And Charlie's like, dude, man, he grabs him by the arm. And I'm thinking, uh-oh. And they did that moment where they stand there and growl at each other. Please shove me. And we go back. Well, he hadn't shoved you yet. I'm telling the story. No, no, no. You're going to ruin the story here. We're coming back together. and this little spider monkey comes flying from off set. You know, I mean, we're just coming back together. I haven't even said the story yet. I'm shortening the story. See, that's what he did. He shortened the story We're going to have a vote. Who likes my story better than her story? Don't you take his side. My man, my man. Now listen, listen, so what we got is these two boys are like two bulls. And the guy goes, let go of me. And he said, hey, dude, let go of me. Let go of him. And the next thing you know, man, there's just that moment of, oh, my God, I think somebody's going to throw a punch in the airport. You can't do that anymore, right? And that guy just shoves the crap out of Charlie. And when he does it, I jump between them. And I'm like, hey! Mister! You know, and once again. It confused the hell out of both of us. I've got to tell you. So here's the little spider monkey. You couldn't tell me to not do that. See, that's of my nature. For some of you women, you would have just backed away and went, whoa, dude, not me, man. I'm like all over this guy. It's like, come on. You know, what are you doing? That's because that's of my natural nature. Now let me tell you something. That's driven, but that has served me well because it protects me. It's also one of the things that is very, very dangerous. It puts me in places I shouldn't be. I get in predicaments that I'm in over my head. All that guy needed to do was take a swing at me. What would my husband have done? He'd possibly be in prison. He could have killed the guy if the guy had taken a swing at him, right? My mother still talks about it, though. She's the one that used the term spider monkey. She said, Katie came flying in like a little spider monkey I've never seen. She actually called me a leopard. I've Never Seen Anything Like It. But can you imagine, had that guy hit me, Charlie would have been so enraged that he threatened his mother and hit his wife, that he could have killed the guy. Do you see how my pride... So when it says this willingness, those are the things I ask God for. It's like, God, I can't stop me in those moments. You scare Katie? Oh man, I'll pick up a gun. You know, you scare me. I already have enough... I'm 53. I got enough history of how I think I got the big old kahunas over here, right? And I really don't. So when he talks about that, that line comes alive to me when it says these absolutely are objectionable. Help me, please help me. My sponsor and I are working on it at this present moment. It says, can he now take them all, every one? Well, this one's still out for debate. You know, I'm doing everything in my power that I know I can do that caused my failure, right? If we still cling to something we'll not let go of, we ask God to help us be willing. That is that law of cause and effect. I am already very aware of a lot of things that I do that I have to be very careful of. The other prayer I do a lot on is God help me grow in understanding and effectiveness because I need to understand and be effective, yes? I mean, you know, Charlie, all the boys like to say I'm like taking a drink out of a fire hose. But, you know, the truth is that sometimes that's very ineffective. You know, that I come down way too hard and I've got to back it up and I'm going to come at you at a better angle. And these are the things about Katie's personality that can cause me problems, right? A lot of the awareness of this stuff has come out of the fourth column of the inventory. When it says, are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable, Where did we admit that they were objectionable? Well, it's in the fourth column of that fifth step. When I'm looking at, you know, when I'm not disregarding the person entirely and I'm look at where was I at fault, where had I been selfish, dishonest, those are things because the first time I did an inventory and we read my stuff, six and seven, we just kind of phoned it in. You know what I mean? Because I read my little confession list, and then when it came to six and seventh, It felt like I was saying, God, please make me a better dude. You know, it didn't really have any meat on the bone because I didn't have the awareness of having done a proper inventory. Now, when we've done a properly inventory, I've got up in my face all these defects of character. Where do I fall short? How do I act when I get scared? How do i act when i'm threatened? What happens when I'm selfish? And there are these things. and the fresh stuff that's coming right out of the inventory is what I'm taking to God. I'm saying, God, I'm ready for you to take all of them. I don't even know which ones they are. You know, it's just take away the things that are going to stand in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. I don'T know which one he's going to want me to keep or which one. And I don' t even get to choose. I just have to become willing to have anything. All the stuff that we have admitted are objectionable. But this sixth step is a question of faith. It says, do I believe? Can he now take them all? Everyone, can he? Do I think he can? Because the essence of step six is lack of power. Do I have the power to make this stuff go away? No. I've just got to take this awareness in it and go, God, I'm ready for you to take all this stuff away from me. This ain't the way I want to be. I'm read for you. I'm willing for you not to take it. I'm tired of trying to work on it myself. And then it goes on and it says, when ready, we say something like this. In our home group, we close with the Seventh Step Prayer for two reasons, several reasons. One is I think it's the purest AA prayer. It's not a Christian prayer. It's from any faith. You know, it's written straight out of our fellowship. And the other thing is a lot of people don't know it well enough that they chant afterwards. So, you know, I'm not big on the chanting, you Know. I mean, for God's sake, Katie talked about when I came in, it was keep coming back. And then it was Keep Coming Back It Works. And it would keep coming back. It works if you work it, and you're worth it, so work it. And I'm like, oh, for God's sakes. You know, I mean, the new guy is coming in going, geez, I want to stop drinking whiskey, but do I have to chant like a kid at summer camp? You know what I mean? You know. Kumbaya, my Lord. You know? And other stuff. A little rant there. But then they started saying, God could and would after if he was shot. Do they do that up here? Yeah. All of them. Yeah. And then to make fun of that, some people started saying at the end of traditions, principles before personalities. All they were trying to do was make fun on the people that were saying God could and whatever. But now, you know, but that's what I was saying. If the drunk comes in and he hears it three or four times in the rooms of AA, he thinks it's AA. You know, so he goes, God could have won if he were shot. You know? And all I'm saying is it's optional. You don't have to do it. It's not necessarily part of AA. It's okay to end the prayer with amen. But we do the seventh step prayer because it's not from any other faith. And it's interesting, though, because so we say this every week. And it says when ready, we say something like this. My creator, I'm now willing that you should have all of me, the good and the bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength as I go out from here to do your bidding. Amen. And it says, we have then completed step seven. It's unbelievable. If you'd asked me during that first period of sobriety one time, what step did you get hung up on? I would have said six and seven because I stopped after five. It was a shock to me, and it's a shock for a lot of people that I do the work with. We talk about, you know, that we go through the work quickly with people. I had a lady one time, she said, are you one of these people that believes in taking people through the steps really fast? And I was like, no. I mean, not really fast. I mean a week, maybe two weeks if we're busy. And I can't find a place in the book where it talks about doing differently. I sit down and I lay out the problem in step one. Then we talk about the psychic change and the solution. Let him decide if he wants to do this deal. Then we come back. We really hammer step one. We do the step two. I lay out the third step for him, show him what the root of the problem is, what the basis of the rest of this work is going to be. Then when we finally get it, that takes me about three hours to do one, two, and three. Then we get down on our knees. We do a third-step prayer. And at once, we start on this inventory. He writes the inventory. You know, I'm like, I want you to go home and write on it tonight. Don't tell me you went to the 8 o'clock meeting but you didn't have time to write the inventory, you know? we'll hide out from the recovery process in the rooms of AA, if you let me. But then we write it, and we do the resentment, the fear inventory, the sex inventory, we get together and we read it. And then, you know, at the end of that night, after he's read the inventory, he goes home and he spends an hour reflecting on it. He does six and seven here. He writes his eighth step list out that night. He's on nine, ten, eleven, and twelve that night! You know, we generally do five, six, seven, and eight on the same day. Is that kind of trippy? So, because it says, now that we've done six and seven, look at what it says next. And see if you find the place where it says chill for a little while and make a few meetings. It says, Now we need more action, without which we find that faith without works is dead. But there's quotation marks around that faith without works is dead because it's a quote from the book of James from the Bible. I mean, you hear a lot of stuff about outside literature in AA, and there's a quoting outside literature right there. But it says faith without work is dead. You know, this is a program of action. So it says let's look at steps eight and nine. We have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willing to make amends. We made it when we took inventory. Now, I've got to tell you, this has been one of the great mysteries of AA for me. The way I work the inventory process now, and I've gone to people, I've going to some of my heroes because there's two places in the book. One's on page 70 and one's on paid 76 where it implies that I will have made a list of all the people I've harmed. And it troubles me a little bit as an AA technician or big book thumper or whatever you want to call it. But I think it's interesting that Bill would put it in there twice because, you know, over on page 70 it said we have listed the people we have hurt by our conduct and are willing to straighten out the past if we can. And then we get over here and it says we have a list of all persons we have harmed and to whom we are willingto make amends. That did not happen for me in the inventory process. And I've gone to some of my heroes in AA, and sometimes they look at me like I'm crazy. You know, they're like, one guy said you're trying to pick the black out of the pepper, you know, and other people just look at him like you're nuts. When I talk to Mark, he goes, I don't know, but if you work with me, the fourth step and the eighth step are going to be separate events. And I was like, okay, you're fine. I guess I've done it both ways, but the way I do it now is when I get to this point, and I say, let's make a list of all the people you've harmed because there's probably going to be some. I know in my experience there were people that I had harmed that did not come out of the inventory process. The example I always use is that I'd stolen $15 out of my sister's purse one night, which was a huge compromise on my values. But it didn't come up under my resentment inventory. It didn't comes up on my fear list, and it didn' t come up in my sex inventory. But I knew I needed to make that right. So I just made a list of all people we have harmed. Two words that are very big in our sponsorship lineage are in the eighth step, and it's the word all. It says, made a List of All Persons We Have Harmed and Became Willing to Make Amends to Them All. There's a very good reason. There's an awful lot of reasons to make amends to most of the people on my list, but there's only one I know of to make all of them, And that's that step one experience. Do I believe that making amends has anything to do with whether I get loaded again? Do I belief that the amends process can block me, whether I know it or not? Because I'll tell you, if you don't want to make amends, all you've got to do is go to an AA meeting and ask around. I guarantee you the bulk of the advice in the program of Alcoholics Anonymous is geared towards not having to make the amens. If you don't want to make an amends, you can go to people, and you'll find somebody that will say you don' t have to make that amends. But what's amazing is when you go around to these AA conferences and you hear some of these speaker stories, what are always the most dramatic stories they tell? They come right out of the amends process. They talk about cleaning it up with their family. They talk abut miracles that happen when they approach people they've harmed. And I'm willing to let somebody talk me out of that. You know, I'm about making all the amends, and I've seen some magic stuff happen out of it. You know? And I've still got amends. I've got unfinished amends that are still out there from 25 years ago, but I've been making them, and I have my cards, you know, but what we do in aid is we become willing to make all these amends and, you now, I like to use the cards. In my sponsorship plans, we use little three-by-five index cards because for me, in my experience, if you let me just make a list of the people I've harmed, that list has a way of finding its way into a drawer somewhere. And I'll make the big ones. You know when it talks about we're like a tornado roaring its way through people's lives? I just want to make the amends of the first people that get touched by that tornado. The ones that I'm going to see, You know, my wife and my boss and my, you know, the closest people. But then some of that other stuff. And, you Know, and talk about I really do believe in making amends. And Chris is the one. God, Chris, we've quoted you all over the country because Chris is the one that says that they should put the word actually in front of these steps. What if it said we actually took inventory? You know? We actually made a list of all people we had harmed and made amends. We actually made direct amends to such people we had harmed. No kidding! You know? Because not just, I kind of approve of it in theory, is that step one experience still driving me at that point? Because I don't know anybody that's ever walked into, have you ever seen anybody walk into the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, desperate, hopeless, have them take a seat, get a cup of coffee, sit down in the chair, and look up at those steps on the wall and read down the list and go, that ought to do it you know I got to be driven by my step one experience this whole time in order to get to the point where I'm going, I'm gonna make all these amends because I want to see I'll never be able, we talk about we don't want to hear about your opinion on an experience you've never had if I've never made direct amends to everybody I've harmed how am I going to tell you what that's like you know and so So, when I first met with Mark, we sat down at the table and he's like, how long since you wrote inventory? Well, it had been a little while. Where are you at in the amends process? Well, you know, I've still got some of them out there. Do you pray and meditate? Not really. Do you do a 10th step spot check? No, not really. Well, how's that five-step program working out for you? You know, and so we really got out about the business of really trying to work an AA program. And it is amazing stuff, and I have seen stuff come out of this amends process. But, you know, what it takes is, what I've noticed, and I was talking with Heidi during the break about this, is that we tend to transmit our own experience. And what I'm seeing in my history is that if I'm weak in the amends process, I'm going to let my sponsees off the hook in the amends process. And when I get all about the amenders process, then I'm going to, the early part of every conversation with them is going to be, where are you at in the amounts process? Have you made any approaches? You know, do you have any unfinished demands? What's going on with that? Because we've got to keep ourselves pressed into doing this stuff. But the magic, oh my God, you know, I mean, we're not going to go a whole lot into the mechanics of, but we're going to have a good deal of time and I'm I'm going to let Katie roll on some of this for a while, and then I'll come back in a little later. You know, one of the things, too, is I was incredibly weak in my eight and nine. Oh, my gosh. I bet you I made ten amends when I got sober, and that was it. You know? I did the tip of the tornado, and then what ended up happening is here I had, you know, 15 years sober, so now you had 15 years on top of those relationships that I should have gone back to and drinking, and then I was just humiliated. It was too embarrassing. Now, I'm going to go back 15 years later sober in AA and make these amends. Well, let me tell you, when you hang around a group of people that keep saying, where are you in the amends process? How do you know what you don't know? How free do you want to be? You'll end up being pressed into making those amends and one of the things I didn't see coming was in my morning time and we'll get more into this in the 11th step, is my meditation time is not of a silent meditation. Some people do that. Mine is more of a deep thought. Mine is more of talking with God type meditation. It's kind of whatever floats your boat. But that is where the amends process came alive and God was speaking to me about who I needed to go back to. It was as if I had an audible voice that said, it's time you need to see so-and-so. And I think, really? For sure? And, I mean, it was freaking me out. And so I went back and made some of these amends. And let me tell you, my lineage – there's a blizzard going on, by the way, outside. Oh, my God. Squirrel, it got me that time. It got me then. And it doesn't happen often, okay? But what ended up happening was, you know, my lineage also didn't have strong sponsorship – We didn't have strong amends, and so now I'm always about where are you in the amends process? Where are you en the amens process? And more than anything, Charlie can get more into the mechanics of it, but I just want to share a couple of amends stories. In the process of this, one of the things is you'll hear in AA is the term living amends. Right? And living amens is nowhere in our literature. There is no such thing. The one thing is there's a long road of reconstruction ahead. We must take the lead with family. And then the end of the 12 steps says practice these principles in all our affairs. That is what living amends is, is we do try to be better people and do that. But if I have stolen something, I need to go repair that because that really falls under spiritual law if you really want to know the truth, is мы go back and we mend the past. Now, don't get me all mixed up yet. I want to just share one quick thing. There was a – when I had left home, I had a relationship with a guy in high school. We'd been together for three years. Now, remember, I left home early, so he and I were together for 3 years. His family had taken me in as a part of their family. It was a pretty cool deal, to say the least. I had Left Houston and was living in this small town called Freeport, and one day I literally woke up. This is how self operates. Now, I didn't know this was happening at the time. It's always looking back. But I woke up one day and went, my God, this guy, I'm in love with this guy. He's in love mit me. He's going to want to marry me. His dad owns a construction company in this small town. I do not want to live in this little town. I am not going to live here. That happened after three years with this man. He did nothing to me. He's not one of us. He was very kind to me He was just unbelievable. And I literally overnight broke it off with him, got with another guy within a week, moved to Austin, never saw him again. Now that's a three-year relationship. It was as close to leaving him at the altar as you possibly could. And it nagged at me so badly. It came to me in prayer and meditation in early sobriety. I just kept putting it off, putting it Off. I can't do it. I can' t do it, I can''t do it." Long story short, after I came out of untreated alcoholism, it came to me so strongly. And one day I just pulled off the road. It's not hard to find people these days. I looked for them on the Internet. I found a phone number. I pulled offthe road and just went, you've just got to do it. You have just gotto do it." And so I called him. It's 35 years later. I called Him, and He answered, and it was His home phone, believe it or not. Talk about God working miracles. I mean, what are the odds of you getting somebody at their home phone? and it was his home phone and he answered and I said you know is this Johnny and he said yeah I said it's Kate Ostermiller and he goes no shit that's not very good you know I was kind of looking for a really oh my god hey long time no see how are ya uh uh no shit and it's like yeah I said listen you know I'm actually coming to Freeport and I was just wondering if I could have some time to talk to you and talk about what happened 35 years ago. I said, it has never gotten very far from my memory because I knew I'd damaged this man. There was no doubt about the damage I did to him. And he said, sure. You know, and I said are you still married because it's important that you see that he checked with his wife, right? The old girlfriend just can't come knocking on the door and because I need to make the amends, hope it doesn't bother everybody. Oh, and by the way, I'm looking pretty good. You know what I mean? I mean, it's importante that he clear it with his life And he said, well, you know, I actually divorced that woman. He said, I can't remember exactly how he said it. He said I divorced her. You know, women will either leave you or they die. Just like that. I thought, oh, I probably didn't help that belief system there much for him at all, you know? And this was a sweet, kind man, you know, and he wasn't sounding just the most giving. And so he said but I did marry so-and-so. And I said, oh I remember her. And I said, well, listen, I'd like to see you and I'd like for you to see if it's okay with her and if she wants to meet us. You know, I would like for that to happen too. Let me know. I'll be down there at such and such a time. Well, I come down a couple of weeks later and I talk to my sponsor about this and I said on the phone he said, you know, Katie, what happened then is in the past. It's no big deal. You see, you boys will poo-poo a lot of stuff. You're not like the girls. The girls are like, oh, bring it. Bring every bit of it. Let's talk about the whole thing. but the boys can tend to poo-poo it and they're like oh that's water under the bridge it's no problem because it's uncomfortable right it's feelings and so my sponsor said I don't care if you have to take his cheeks in your hand you make him sit there and listen to how sorry you were for the way you treated him and so I end up meeting him for coffee and what turned into about an hour and a half talk and I had to get through that bravado of no big deal no big deal, no big deal. He ended up crying four times and he said, you know, I've often thought about what our children would look like, what our lives would be. I mean, I broke this man's heart and I would have missed that. See, I didn't sit there and feel guilt and shame. Don't get me wrong. I got an opportunity to let this man tell me how damaged and heartbroken he was and that he does often think about me and how our life would have been. And I got to give him a big hug, you Know, because we weren't going, you Now, it's not like we're going to rekindle something that wasn't it at all. But that magic of that moment, I would have put off because just too much time had gone by. And that's what I'm telling you guys. When Mark says, how free do you want to be? I had no idea what's sitting there across from that man that I had damaged so badly and got to listen to him on four different occasions tear up and say what he said. And so that's the kind of stuff you don't want to miss. And here's the other thing I tell my sponsees. What would happen And if somebody came to you that really hurt you badly and came and made that amends to you and held your hand and told you how sorry they were for hurting you, would you have not just been touched by that gesture? And yet we'll say, I don't want to do that because of that level of self-centeredness, right? That driven by that self- centered fear. We won't do it. But if you do it to me, my life is moved. My world has changed. And so I encourage you to look at it from an entirely different angle and see as if that person came to you and made that amends, how special that would make you feel. Those were the two stories I just wanted to share. Great. You know, and there's something, you know, we pound the self piece when we go through the steps. When we do a step study, we hear so much about what the book says about that selfishness and self-centeredness is the root of our problem. And I see it repeated throughout the work, and I didn't see it for a long time. Because, I mean, we've seen it in the fourth step, the fifth step, right? Are you all with me on that? Listen to what it says in the eighth step. Now we go out on page 76 in the second, third new paragraph, about halfway through the third new paragraphe on page 66. We subjected ourselves to drastic self-appraisal. Now we go out to our fellows and repair the damage done in the past. Listen to this. We attempt to sweep away the debris which has accumulated out of our effort to live on self-will and run the show ourselves. Does that sound like it's restating the deal in step three? Does that sounds like one of those little hub lines reminding me of the deal we made in step three? It's telling me once again that where these harms come from is they are the kind of debris that accumulates out of a life run on self-will i'm in constant collision with something or somebody and i hurt people and that's what we're trying to go out and and you know and the thing it says if we haven't the will to do this we ask until it comes that's the first prayer in there and it says remember it was agreed at the meet at the beginning we'd go to any lengths for victory over alcohol there's five pages that i know of in the book where it talks about being willing to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol they're on page 58 page 76 page 78 page 90 and page 96 it happens in the 12th it implies in the twelve-step call and working with others that i'm supposed to ask this guy are you willing to go any lengths from victory over alcohol it talks about it and how it works you know um if you want what we have and are willing to go at any length to get it you know that's what it's talking about and it goes on here but But the thing about it is probably there's some misgivings that goes, but you know, this thing about the selfish program, look at what it says at the top of page 77. At the moment we're trying to put our lives in order. But this is not an end in itself. It says our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be a maximum service to God and the people about us. What? our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be a man. It doesn't say I used to think that it said our real purpose is for us to be of maximum service to God and the people around us and then they'll do the set aside prayer one day and you're looking at it and it says our real purpose is just to fit yourselves to beof maximum service to God and our fellows. It don't mean that I'm going to be down on the street corner with a bullhorn and a Bible and gauze clothing and, you know, that sort of thing and quit my job and go right away but I'm supposed to fit myself try to get as unblocked as I possibly can, get close to this power, stay close to it, perform his work well, and he will take care of what I need. And all I'm saying is I can't pound that deal enough that we made in step three that he'll provide what I needs if I stay close him and perform his works well. All I can tell you is I made a decision a few years back to try to go all-in on this deal to see what would happen if we actually did the whole deal all the way, pay all the taxes, actually pay the insurance, you know, not cheat on anything, be honest about everything, make these amends, stay close to him, perform his work well. And all I can tell you is he's been doing a kick-ass job of holding up his end of the deal. You know, the last few years have been unbelievable. I mean, I'm flush for the first time in my life. I used to spend all my time focused around work. Now it seems like I spend half my time working with drunks. But I've never been in this good. I'm in the best relationship I've ever been in. You know, I don't know if it's – I don'T believe in coincidences on this kind of stuff. You know? It really seems like the deal is working. But, you know, part of the deal, when we talk about – there's a lot of instructions on the amends process. But – and it tells us how to approach different kinds of people. We're doing real good on time on this one, aren't we, honey? Yeah, and I'm going to jump in for one more quick story. Because before you tell this story, what I was going to say is part of living a life based completely on self is that I have very little awareness of my effect on other people. You know? I mean, part of getting with this is when we do this card process, what we'll do is we'll put on there the name of the person I harmed, their contact information, and then the nature of the amends, and then down at the bottom I'll put, how can I make this right? And have I harmed you in any other way? And those two questions are so powerful. And one of the things you have to be able to push through, what Katie said is, we don't want to make this person uncomfortable, but most people have never experienced anything like this. Very few of us have ever had somebody come to us and say, I have wronged you and I want to Make That Right. And boy, it can change the ripple effect that that can happen. We don't know what it's going to be like. That guy might drive home from there and go, I've never seen anything like that in my life. Who have I wronged? Who do I need to straighten things up with and that sort of thing? But part of living a life based completely on self is I have very little awareness of my effect on other people because I'm only focused on me. And so when we get into an amends and I say to my sister, can you imagine a pinhead like me going to my Sister and saying, Carol, I harmed you and I want to make amends to you. here's the $15 I stole out of your purse in 1977 you know and when I say have I harmed you in any other way can you see her going so you think that's the way you harmed me is taking $15 out of my purse let's talk for a minute let's talking about robbing me of my brother let's talked about making my house my mother's house an unsafe place to live let's talks about making where they had no idea what was going to happen or if their stuff was going to be on the pawn shop or not. Let's talk about robbing my dad of the security of knowing that, you know, and all of a sudden you're going, holy shit, I just wanted to pay back the $15, you know? But you see what I mean about, you know... And now this can be carried much too far because I sat with Katie one time and I made amends for this stuff and I said, you Know, I'd like to give you some time to consider if I've harmed you in any other way, you KNOW, and we'll talk about it later, you know, because I really do want to clear this up. Well, so, you now, we're rolling along, and one day we're talking about something, and she goes, oh, that's on the list. I talked about something stupid I'd done one time. She goes, Oh, that' s on the List. And I said, What list is that? And she goes You told me I got some time to consider. And I went, Oh no, hold on a minute. You know, that had like a one-week statute of limitations on it. Well, you kno? This was eight months later. This was eight months later, but I'll tell you, I...