Big Book Study Review – Part 3 – Joe Hawk and Triva – 1992 — Joe H.

we was talking to, right? He said, you know, he tried to use the book. He said, you know, more will be revealed. These people in 1939 realized they only know a little. God will constantly disclose more to you and to us. And now in the 90s, we have realized it's not a physical, mental, and spiritual disease that no human power can relieve. It's a feeling disease based in shame. I said, let me ask you a question. I said, wouldn't you drink tremendous amounts of alcohol when you felt bad, full of shame? He said, yeah. That's what he was trying to get me to see, right? Then he would say, I asked him, well, didn't you drink tremendous amounts of alcohol when you felt good and you weren't experiencing any shame? He said, yeah. I said, but didn't you ever drink to feel? He said, yeah. I said, didn't you ever drink not to feel? He said, yeah. I said, then what the hell does alcohol care about how you feel whether you drink it again or not? So I can't stress this point enough. In the last couple years, as far as my drunk log is concerned, and as far as when approached with the question, Joe, why do you drink tremendous amounts of alcohol once you start to drink alcohol? I have lost my attachment to circumstance or my emotional state having anything to do with why I do that. Because I do that when she stays, and I do it when she leaves. And I do it when the team wins, and I do it when the team loses. And I do it when it's sunny, and I do it when it's cloudy. And I do it when I'm feeling good, and I do it when I'm feeling bad, and I do it when I'm not feeling much at all. And it brings it in here. I drink tremendous amounts of alcohol once I start to drink alcohol because my body craves alcohol when I put it in my system. Now, what about the addict? I really don't like getting into this, but there are those that think if you're powerless over cocaine, you're an alcoholic. Some people have both. Some people crave booze, and they're powerless as hell when they do cocaine. Some people don't have both. I have worked with guys that are absolutely powerless over freebasing cocaine. They can't control it when they start. They can't control it when they stop. They relate to the spiritual malady. They need to do this work. But with booze, they have been always able to do what the hell they want. They just kind of use it to take the edge off, and they are not able to do it. They are not powerless over alcohol the way I am. They do not crave booze when they put it in their system. It only takes them back to the rock house, and they are powerless over where it takes them. And that's a big difference between saying, my name is so-and-so, and I'm an addict, and I'm powerless over alcohol, than saying, my name is so-and-so, and I'm an alcoholic, and an addict. It's important to find the truth with the first step. And I'm glad to be a member of a group that doesn't think we're all a bunch of cows, and with the first step, the first half of step one, helps you find your own truth. Because sometimes you'll find that with these two symptoms, the physical craving and the mental obsession, each of us have different truth. My truth is, personally, I was able to walk away from drugs. Shot heroin for seven years, walked away from it, never shot anymore. Shot cocaine for six years in South Florida, woke up one day, decided never to do it again, never did it again. A real addict would be as powerless over his drug as he was about to die. And I hate the word choice. Drug of choice? That's just a word that's come into our program from treatment. Because what you really find is, the drug you like the most, you had no choice over. I have a real problem, an addict using the word choice and addict together in the same sentence. Because they just don't go together. It's like military intelligence. That's called an oxymoron. It's two words that don't go together. I'm powerless over alcohol, and my life is unmanageable, and this is what I do. This is what I do to keep myself sober, and this is what I do to manage my life. No. If you're powerless over drugs or alcohol or both, there is no choice. My drug of choice was yours. But the one I like the most, I had about as much choice as the man in the moon. So I encourage you to find your own truth with step one. Some guys find they're both. Some guys find they're an addict. Some guys find they're an addict. Some guys find they're an addict who's powerless over where alcohol takes them, but they don't get the physical craving. Some guys find out they're an alcoholic. Some guys find out they're an addict. Find your own truth with the first half of step one. Is it food? Is it gambling? Why do each of these programs change a word in the first step? Because this process works, but it only works when you start the first step from truth. I've seen people go through the first nine steps based on a lie in the first step, get worse. They get to the ninth step, and they are literally worse than when they started because they didn't start a spiritual process with truth. And they're probably holding on to some reservations. Because I was one. I'm an alcoholic, but I used a lot of drugs. I free-based cocaine. I shot heroin. I did it all. But I'm an alcoholic, and I had to really get in touch with that. I, for whatever reason, could free-base, and when it reached a point where I thought I was going to get like, like some of those other people, I just stopped. I don't think an addict could do that. You know? I can't picture Treva shooting heroin. Well, actually, the truth is, I had somebody do it for me. She was like this. She was like, do me. I mean, like he was saying, I wanted it all. You were doing it, do me. You know? But I am an alcoholic. He didn't look, though. He didn't look. I didn't look. But, yeah. I know. I want it to be. I want to be clear on that, on the first step, because I had worked with a lot of women who came in and said they were alcoholic and held on to some reservations and had to go back out there because of the lie that they were doing the remaining steps with. So, it's very important to get in touch with our own truth. You know? And when I first got sober, I wanted to be an addict because it was cool. You know? So. You know. So, we move from the physical craving, from looking at the body, to the next section, section three. We're going to look from page 23 to page 43, looking at the mind before I even take a drink. So, we've looked at what happens after I take a drink. Now, we want to look at what happens before I take a drink. And the way to use 23 to 43 is to continue to turn statements into questions. These observations about the body are academic. And pointless. If our friend never takes the first drink. Therefore, setting that terrible cycle in motion. Therefore, the main problem of the alcoholic, now that I'm sober, the main problem that I suffer from, the thing that's going to get each and every one of us back to the next drink, is the mind, rather than the body. These strange thoughts that come into my mind that take me back out of here. Or, for some of us in this room, those days when you woke up and found yourself drunk or using, without any thought at all. Without any thought, without any premeditated thought about what it was going to be like or what was going to happen. Found yourself drunk, pounding on the bar or in the dope house wondering, how the hell did this happen with nine months, or 90 days, or 60 days, or 28 days out of the Michigan State Penitentiary. I walked out of my PO's office, having made my second report. He told me everything I shouldn't do to violate my parole. That was go into a bar, a dope house, be with any ex-felons, or leave the county. I walked out of his office feeling good. There's that point again. Feeling good, pumped up at how well I was doing. He just told me how great I was doing. Had a thought that I needed a pack of cigarettes, and with no thought at all, into a bar, picked up a drink, called the next felon, drove out of the county to a dope house, woke up five days later with no thought that I had just, in order, broken every condition of my parole. Woke up five days later in a dope house, 120 miles away, out of the county, with an ex-felon, in a dope house, having called him from the bar, having taken a couple drinks. I was off, 28 days out of the penitentiary. Now the trap of the ego, what the ego will try to do is, with both of these points, what happens every time you start, and what happens every time you stop, what the ego will try to do is say this. This will usually be, for most of us, the last vestitude of reservation. Well, well, when I started, I just changed my mind. And, after I had stopped for a while, I just changed my mind. What that does is, keeps the ball in your court, you're the one with the power, and all you did was change your mind. Is it possible that for several of us in this room, there is a phenomena that happens where it isn't us changing our mind, it is our mind changing us, and we are powerless over it, and it is happening again. Because this just isn't about looking at the past, and seeing where you would get the obsession, and drink again. This is about, could this happen to me right now, today? With all I know, with all I've experienced, with everything I can bring to mind, with all you people behind me, walking out of this room, could this happen to me? Can I keep myself sober? Do I know enough? Have I experienced enough? Can I remember well enough? I love when I hear some idiot saying, next time you get a thought to drink, just think it through. Right? I'm the kind of guy that would get about six days into it, and just say, fuck it, I might as well do it anyway. Right? Me being able to think my last drunk, or what about those that say, if you can't remember your last drunk, you probably have a problem. You probably haven't had it. What about those of us in the room that barely remember the last two months of our last spree? We must really be sick, huh? We must really be in trouble. Oh, I can't remember my last drunk well enough to bring it to mind today, to keep me from doing it again. And what does it tell you here? Your so-called willpower will become practically non-existent. You will be unable to bring to mind, with any kind of force, the memory and the suffering and humiliation of even the most powerful. The memory and the suffering and humiliation of even a week, let alone a month ago, you will be without defense against the first drink. And if these thoughts do occur, they will be hazy and readily supplanted with an old idea that this time, I'm going to handle myself like other people. with an old idea that this time, I'm going to handle myself like other people. That's amazing. But I was thinking about going through the work this time, and really becoming frightened because, okay, I could understand the physical craving. I could understand. I really got that. That once I put alcohol in my body, that I lost control. I could not determine what was going to happen. But the mind, the mental obsession, was real hard for me. And it was really more frightening because I was... It's like I couldn't even hardly remember It's like I couldn't even hardly remember my last spree. And the thinking that preceded it and all that. But this, you know, by them telling me now that this disease I have centers in my mind, that this disease I have centers in my mind, that's really scary because that means that today that this disease I have centers in my mind, I could go out like Joe was saying, I could go out like Joe was saying, and my mind could start to tell me some of the lies they used to tell me and I could believe it and end up drunk. I mean, that's scary. You know, because, see, the physical craving, for some reason, I feel like, well, as long as I don't put anything in my body, I'm okay. It's almost as though I feel like I have some control. It's almost as though I feel like I have some control. Then I won't get drunk. But if they're telling me that it centers in my mind, But if they're telling me that it centers in my mind, then that puts it in a whole different place for me. Because how can I control my mind? Because how can I control my mind? How can I control the very thing that they tell me is what controlled it in the first place? You know, so that puts it in a totally different place for me. You know, so that puts it in a totally different place for me. And it's the most interesting for me because when I really got into the mental obsession, it brought a lot of things, you know, just right here for me. And how much I need to find a power because of myself to find a power because of myself. With everything that I know and all the books I read and all the knowledge I have of myself, I cannot pull this off. Because of the kind of mind. And I think the most amazing thing for me was when I got it that I am bodily and mentally different. That's the truth. I may not like it, but that's what it is. If I be alcoholic, I'm bodily and mentally different from other people. You know? So the next big reservation that most alcoholics and addicts hate to let go of, even after seeing that maybe it wasn't just them changing their mind once they started to drink or use or once they stopped drinking or using, it wasn't just them changing their mind, that it was literally something that went on in their mind that they're powerless over, then the last little vestitude that you'll hold onto is just one idea. Choice. Now if we were to look at three words, power, control, and choice, and I looked up the definition of those, and power talked about strength, and control talked about ability, and choice is the one that killed me because it said two or more reasonable options. And I realized for me to think I have a choice, that that's a reasonable option. That's a reasonable option. And what they say here is the fact is that for reasons we don't understand, most alcoholics have lost the power of choice in drink. I mean wouldn't it be encouraging to somebody here in this room that's pretty new for me to say, for the last nine years I've woke up every day and chose not to drink? But wouldn't it be a little more encouraging to say that for the last nine years because of this process I have on a regular basis been taken to a place where there's about as much choice to drink again as there was not to drink again? And the choice has been removed on the other end of the scale? Now I got here in a place where I had no choice but to drink. I was going to have to drink again if something major didn't happen. Well on the other end of the same scale in this recovery process as described in the tenth step, there is a place you can get to where on a daily basis, moment to moment in this moment right now the problem is removed and when the problem is removed there's about as much choice to drink as there was not to drink. I do not wake up every day and exert my power to choose not to drink. Because you know what? I bet you based on the history of my life for seventeen years one day in these last nine years I would have made the wrong choice. Alcoholics hate to admit that they aren't the ones in control. That they aren't the ones with the choice. But here's the deal. If you're admitting you're powerless and you'll never regain control there is no choice. Because if you lose one you lose all three. They're all three the same thing. Me thinking I have power is me thinking I have control and me thinking I have control is me thinking I have a choice. But when you come to terms with real powerlessness and that there'll never be control and you realize down here in your gut and it goes from here to here the battle's over. I have no choice. Left to my own devices on my own power I will drink. I remember the first time even as much as Al had been exposed to Joe and Charlie and a couple other things before he and I met quite a long time ago he used to say the first step means to me I can't drink. Well see he was clear on one part of the first step that if he drinks I can't drink. If he drinks he's going to crave more and that he can't drink real well or successfully. But if you get the second half of the first step the powerlessness, the mental the mental obsession the bottom line to the first step for me is I will drink. I will drink. If you have an alcoholic mind the time and place will come that you will drink again. I don't want to face that. My ego wants to hold on to I got something to do with this. I'll tell you something it takes a lot of work in Alcoholics Anonymous to realize it's none of the work you've done in Alcoholics Anonymous. It takes a lot of work to get past the denial of the grace of God. A form of denial stronger than the denial that anyone in this room ever came to AA with. We all know about that kind of denial, right? The denial of the disease and you go to treatment or you come to AA and we help you see the denial of the very thing you suffer from and we all talk a lot about that but there's a form of denial that I don't hear too often and we haven't talked about that much in AA and I think it's stronger than the denial I came here with and it comes out real subtle. I get up to take a cake 5, 10, 15, 20 years sober some idiot in the back of the room goes How'd you do it? How'd you do it? Real subtle though, isn't it? And I get up and I admit to you if I have any sense at all my name is Joe and I'm an alcoholic and I'm powerless over alcohol and my life is unmanageable. I'm not going to live my life. Or I just don't drink or use no matter what. And it's real subtle but you know what it is? It's the denial of the grace of God me taking the credit thinking I'm the one that's made this thing happen denying that it's a free undeserved, unearned gift you gotta do a lot of work to realize the grace of God then you have to do a lot of work to be moved beyond the grace to a conscious contact I was given the grace of God this year to work with a man with 24 years of sobriety and he walked out of my apartment one day and he said, Joe for 24 years all I have experienced is the grace and the realization of the grace of God and I want a conscious contact and several steps later in the middle of making amends he said, the realization of the grace of God is a great thing to realize and I have and probably everyone in this room has experienced the grace of God but a conscious contact with that power that you can do something with, that you can use to help others, to be free of resentment to do everything it says to do with 10 and 11 is like night and day from experiencing grace what about a middle of the road solution for me? They're gonna bring it up again at the end of step one, but what about on page 25, exploring the idea that there is no middle of the road solution and that there's only two alternatives to go on the best I can blotting out the consciousness of my situation as best I can or accepting spiritual help anyone in this room faced with the truth so far about first step, about the first step have any other alternative but to go on the best they can dying an alcoholic death which might mean living a lot longer feeling the way you're feeling, you see dying an alcoholic death and going out right now ain't scary to me and it didn't scare me when I was new when you all said to drink is to die that might have been my only out but when my sponsor said for you, dying an alcoholic death might mean feeling the way you're feeling a lot longer before you die or accepting spiritual help, anybody have any alternatives in between there? the right woman the right amount of knowledge about this book, the right job, the right amount of money the right amount of self awareness through therapy this is where when you're working with somebody you really get to go through any of those reservations they have about what else they think is going to save them if I can say anything at all about that I would just say to be honest with yourself because I had some middle of the road solutions I thought would work but I didn't want to tell anybody and as a result of that I was not willing to accept the spiritual tools which are the steps and I had to go I had to die, I mean literally just continue to die and I was listening to Joe talk about the grace you know the fact that being faced with the fact that I am an alcoholic who has this physical allergy this obsession of the mind this disease that is like so powerful that no human power nobody can help me with this you know and the fact that further on they're going to tell me that I'm going to be relieved of this alcoholic mind that I'll be able to go anywhere and I know because I do any sort of place I can go around alcohol, I can do things and the problem is removed it's just awesome and you know it was good to hear him say that it's not because of anything that I do really, I mean I I can't pull that off you know and I go around and I used to think that I'm going to I was one of those people who wanted to do it perfect and I'm going to do this I'm going to read this book, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that and you know it's a gift now I have to try I have to do everything I can but I don't have a choice and because I'm really in touch with the fact that I don't have a choice because of myself I am going to drink period you know and the fact that I have not had to do that for this long just blows me away and I never thought about it quite like that until he was saying that and then to think that I'm able to go and be around you know all this stuff, not only that they told me that you know I drink because of the effect and it's true that I suffer with you know the restlessness, irritability and discontent and then I thought about you know having lived sober having felt feelings I never felt before the emotional stuff, crying and seeing people die and doing all that stuff and not having to drink when before there was no way I could live my life without drinking if something like that happened, you know I drank when I was happy, when I was sad and now you know just looking at the fact that I've gone through some things in my life recently that have been really hard but I have never I haven't thought of drink I mean that just blows me away you know On 26 you'll find Dr. Carl Jung's explanation to Roland of the mind of an alcoholic and that he knew what it was and that he knew what we needed and he called it a vital spiritual experience and even described what that would be like and then admitted that he couldn't make it happen for us so here we have one of the top medical doctors who knew about the body and one of the top psychiatrists in the world that knew about the mind and they both knew what we needed here comes another one that admits he can't make it happen for us I've had the pleasure of visiting the general service office a couple times in New York City our head office AA's general service office and got to read some letters from Carl Jung to Bill Wilson writing about his frustration working with alcoholics and it was real interesting so as you continue to move from 23 to 43 and you continue to turn every statement you can into a question for yourself you start to experience more of this tension this tension that moves you into step 2 it talks about control it talks about illusion it talks about delusion it talks about fully conceding to your innermost self that you're an alcoholic and that this is the first step in recovery and the delusion that we are like other people or presently maybe has to be smashed now how many times have I heard that read in meetings and I didn't know what they meant until I did the work up to this point and I realized the delusion that I'm like other people drinking or presently sober has to be smashed and if I could say one line in this book that sums up every problem I've ever had since I got sober the delusion that I think I'm like other people presently having to be smashed over and over and over again I don't like to get too lofty but there is one idea that I'd like to share with you that I have a sponsor with 26 years who lives in Denver he's a man and I have a spiritual advisor who's a lady with 32 years that I love very much and one of the great ideas that she got across to me that went from here to here that I really understand now is about presently, sober the idea that we're like other people I was sharing one day her and I were at a meeting together in Denver and I was talking about being angry or afraid or all this stuff that so many of us spend so much time at the podiums dribbling on and on and on about thinking that what we're feeling is the bottom line thinking that if I'm angry the bottom line is just the anger that I'm feeling well some of us know there's fear behind that but maybe it's just fear and my ego wants to convince me it's just what I'm feeling that I need to pray about or deal with or make go away and what she helped me see was that if you're an alcoholic the bottom line is never just what you're feeling the bottom line is you're fighting booze you're fighting anger you're fighting alcohol you're fighting fear, you're fighting alcohol see for my neighbor my neighbor's a normal drinker he gets mad as far as it's going to go for him the bottom line for him is what he's feeling but I'm an alcoholic and my life history proves to me and you that it goes one step further beyond fear or beyond what I'm feeling and right below it is booze so if you're fighting anger you're fighting alcohol and it's not just what you're feeling and the delusion that I'm like other people presently angry, fearful, in a good place feeling good presently has to be smashed the bottom line for me is booze I'm an alcoholic and it's hard to believe that if I drink a ton, I have bad feelings just think about the drinking in aiber o'clock for your own good I bet you'll like booze it does shirt it up but it doesn't really work but with your baking we know that effectiveisure can kill you but as you can oh I'm not gonna believe thatmy American office about me trusting another alcoholic that I trust and getting out all that stuff that's going on in my head so at 3 o'clock in the morning it's not just me and all that stuff going on in my head that takes some people out of here. Those of us that have been around for a while have all seen these guys, 15, 20, 30 years sober, who have placed themselves, not been placed, who have placed themselves in a position in their group where at 3 o'clock in the morning if they were really experiencing some doubt and some fear about am I after all these years really an alcoholic? Wouldn't my drinking kind of be different now? They've placed themselves in such a position, they wake up in the middle of the night at 3 in the morning, they don't have anyone to call and admit that they have that kind of stuff going on and it takes them right out of here. I've seen it, long-term sobriety. And it's not just because... See, I think that one thing that we always hone in on, he stopped going to meetings. I think if you were really... If you were really able to sit down with that guy who did stop going to meetings and then drank and you were really to talk to him and he had any clarity at all, I bet there was some stuff that went on way before he stopped going to meetings. See, my ego wants to keep hold of it's something I'm doing. It's something I'm doing. What do you mean it's not that I'm going to meetings and I'm not doing this and I'm doing all this? But when somebody realizes at a gut level there is nothing they can do to keep themselves sober and that admission takes place, there's a whole lot they can do to seek the power of God that keeps them sober. Remember what Dr. Bob said? When Bill shared with him alcoholism and its hopelessness, he began to pursue the spiritual remedy with a willingness he had never been able to muster. See, in the midst of complete defeat, I am given more power to seek the power that keeps me sober than I am to drink. I am given more power to seek the power that keeps me sober than I am to drink. I am given more power to seek the power that keeps me sober than I am to drink. I am given more power to seek the power that keeps me sober than I am to drink. And what do we do? We run around here for years and years and years, some of us, worshiping the fingers. You know that painting on the Sistine Chapel of the finger that points to God? And you hear people in the church talk about don't worship the finger, see what it's pointing to, don't worship the church, worship God. And you come to AA and you hear read the book, work the steps, get a sponsor, go to meetings. And my mind thinks that reading the book, getting a sponsor, working the steps, and going to meetings, is what's going to keep me sober. So I go to 90 meetings in 90 days, and I see people going to more meetings than me drink again. They can recite how it works, drink again. They spend a lot more time with their sponsor than I do, drink again. And some that work the first nine steps and start thinking it's what they're doing forget certain simple things like it's not what they're doing, and they drink again. And I go to my sponsor, and I said, I thought you said the book, the steps, you, and these meetings were what were going to keep me sober. He said, I never told you that. None of them by themselves are what keep you sober, but maybe all of them together will get you in touch with a power that'll keep you sober. And I started to see what the book, the meetings, a sponsor, and these steps point to. And when I admitted that there was nothing I could do, I didn't have any other plans, I didn't have any other things in mind that were going to keep me sober. The first step eliminated them, one at a time. And I realized there's nothing I can do to keep myself sober. There was within me a willingness to seek some kind of power that would keep me sober that I had never had. But see, as long as there's a plan, there's no need. Why would anybody be open to power that has him? Why would anybody be open to this idea of something else keeping you sober if you can't? Why would you need to go to the second step if you have a solution? Why would you need to go to the second step if you have an answer? And if you have any power at all, or have a choice, or can keep yourself sober, why would you need to go to God to keep you sober? But if the first step is taking all that, and slowly, for some of us it takes years. My God, there's stories in this room. I mean, there's nothing worse, and I think, I'm thinking of one person in mind, but I think there's nothing worse than trying to get done drinking in AA. Okay. Except that maybe you keep, maybe you just at least know there's something here, and maybe someday it'll happen for you. But I guess it's just hard for us, those of us that have to watch it. There's nothing worse than trying to get done drinking in AA. Because you're missing the great persuader. The thing that'll really beat you into a state of reasonableness ain't the people in AA persuading you what you should be doing. Ain't the mother. Ain't the father. Ain't the wife. Ain't the husband. It's what the book calls the great persuader. And if you can just go back, back out there, and get enough experience with the great persuader, it will beat you into a state of reasonableness that AA can take years to do. And the great persuader is alcohol. It finally beat me into a state of reasonableness. And you know what the state of reasonableness is for me? When I can say three words that are the three hardest words for an alcoholic to say. And they ain't, I love you. I love you. It only takes a couple shots, a glass of whiskey and a barf to get me to say I love you. Right? But you know what it took 17 years of in and out, and in and out, and treatment center after treatment center, and all this knowledge. It took 17 years of the great persuader beating me into a state of reasonableness to finally be able to say, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what's going to keep me sober. I don't have a plan this time. There's nothing worse than setting a guy like me out of treatment. And they do what they call aftercare plan. Because it involves me in setting up my plan for what I'm going to do to keep myself sober. So then they go on and they tell us some things to do if someone questions being an alcoholic. And I remember I didn't want to look at that part in the book. Because I thought, well, why would they tell somebody to do this? You know? But like Joe was saying, the worst thing in the world is to see someone in Alcoholics Anonymous and just continuing to drink. Not sure. Don't know. So they tell you on page 34 what you can do. You know? Let them try leaving liquor alone for a year. Because that's what scared me. When I thought about looking at the first step again. Well, what if I'm not alcoholic? Or they said that, you know, somewhere they'll tell us that we can go out and try some controlled drinking. And I thought, oh my God. That's scary. Because I think then I knew. For some reason I knew that if I go out and try to try some controlled drinking, I'm in trouble. I know what's going to happen. What always happens. You know? Um. So you want to talk about the... It's a great consideration in the middle of the first step to consider. At this point, if I wasn't convinced, would I be willing to consider the idea of trying two drinks a day for 30 days? No more, no less. Absolutely. And if you're not willing to consider that idea, you're not even halfway through step one. But if something has come up inside of you and you realize your desire to seek truth, and you would be willing to do anything to find out the truth about your condition, ask me right now. If I wasn't convinced about this is me, this is what I'm... This is what's wrong with me, and this is what I've committed my life to doing, would I be willing to try some controlled drinking? You see, because I didn't even say, would you be willing to try some controlled drinking? All I said was, would you be willing to consider the idea of two drinks a day for 30 days? And some of you said, no, I wouldn't even be willing to consider the idea. I tried it once on my mom. My mom's a normal drinker, and I said to my mom, I said, you know what, mom? I don't think you're an alcoholic, and I bet you could take two drinks a day for 30 days. And she giggled and she said, yeah, it would probably be a little too much. But you say that to an alcoholic, or you consider it at a gut level yourself, alone, quiet, in the dark, would I be willing to take... Would I be willing to consider that maybe I'm not an alcoholic and I could take two drinks a day for 30 days and stuff will come up inside of you that doesn't happen to a normal drinker? Because they know they could do it. See, it's a trick question. It's meant to bring something up inside of you that normal drinkers wouldn't get from alcohol, and that's absolute terror. Unless you believe you can pull it off. And then I don't know why we're in here. There's an idea on page 34 that really helped me with the idea of choice. And I still to this day, I can't verbalize it the way it happened for me. But, see on the previous page, way back when we looked at the idea of choice, I was mostly looking at somewhere during my drinking, I lost the power to choose whether I could keep myself sober. I had to drink. But now on page 34, in the middle paragraph it says, for those who are unable to drink, for those who are unable to drink moderately, the question is how to stop altogether. Not one day at a time. You know Bill and Bob never meant we don't drink one day at a time. You know they meant we don't ever drink again for good and all, and we live life one day at a time. I mean, wouldn't you hate having to go 10, 15, 20 years just not drinking one day at a time? I mean, that sounds miserable to me. Every 12-step call I've ever read Bill and Bob made on somebody in this room, in this book, one of the first things they ever said to him was, are you ready to quit drinking for good and all? And it says here, if you are unable to drink moderately, the question is how to stop altogether. We are assuming, of course, the reader desires to stop altogether. Do I? Whether such a person can quit upon a non-spiritual basis without God depends upon the extent to which he has already lost the power to choose whether he will drink, or not. And you start to look at both sides of choice. See, if I have truly decided that I don't ever want to drink again, would it just be my choice if I was to drink again? Or would it be something that I didn't want to do? Well, if you have actually decided this is something you don't ever want to do again, for me to drink would have been beyond my choice. It would have been a progression of things happening where it just took me to something I didn't want to do. So, if you can quit on a non-spiritual basis, it depends upon the extent to which you have already lost the power to choose whether you will drink, or not. That really helped me. It goes on talking about the obsession. Strange mental blank spots. Strange mental twists. On the bottom of 41 it talks about if you have an alcoholic mind, the time and place will come that you will drink again. It talks about an important discovery that spiritual power is not just a matter of time. The principles can solve all your problems. And then, once again, if this is a good textbook, on the bottom of 43, they end up with a quiz on everything you've covered from 23. And that is, and they even say they're repeating themselves, once more, the alcoholic at a certain time will have no effective mental defense against the first drink. Except in a few rare cases. Now, we have to, we must have a few rare cases in the room, huh? Lonnie was a rare case for a long time. Right? Neither he, nor any other human power, can provide that defense. His defense must come from a higher power. You know what the scariest thing to me is about at a certain time, there will be no effective mental defense against the first drink? I don't know when that certain time will be. Could that certain time happen feeling good? Could that certain time happen feeling bad? Could that certain time happen not feeling much at all? Could that certain time happen at the, in the penthouse? Having gotten the great job, with the bank full? Could it happen on a bad day after everything fell apart and you lost your job? Do I know how I would be feeling, or the warning signs, or what I could do to keep it from happening? Right? To keep it from happening, that certain time from happening. I was in a treatment center a couple weeks ago doing a panel. You know what the class was they had? Just before the panel? Relapse... Antonio will hate this. Relapse prevention. Right? Techniques an alcoholic can do to keep himself from his own relapse happening. But if I'm powerless over alcohol, and there's nothing I can do to keep myself sober, can I prevent my own relapse? You can't, but you have to do something, Joe. You can do something. Yeah. Why me? There's something to do. I can't prevent it, but I certainly can't sit around and do nothing. I have to do something. You know? In order to even get to the power, I'm going to have to do some work. And that's the thing that I always, when I hear people say, well, I don't have, I have no power. And that's true, I have no power. But I have a part that I have to play in this process here. Do I muster up that power, or does that power come from the admission that I have none? Yeah, it comes from admitting you have none. There's the first paradox, the first step paradox. In the admission of no power, you receive more power than you've ever had. That's a paradox. And if you're using your mind to figure out what we're talking about here today, you're using the wrong organ. You're using the thing that's going to take you back out to figure out what's going to keep you in. No, that doesn't make any sense. We start to listen with something other than our head. We start to listen to truth that makes no sense to people out there, that makes sense to most everyone in this room. Spiritual paradox, spiritual truth. Bill even described it in his story. He said,