The Third Step Prayer and the Seventh Step Prayer Are One Prayer Separated by Two Pieces of Action – Cliff B.

That's better. Is everybody on now that's supposed to be here? Yes. I just got an email from Sandy. Just underneath a text saying that you're trying to get a hold of her. I presume she's on your list. Sandy, yes. Sandy Dillian? Yeah, but she's not online. It says that she's not online. Okay. Oh, but she says she's on here now. Okay. Okay, I'm glad she got you. All right. I think we are here. All ready to go? I think so. Unless there's anybody I don't know about. Oh, there's one more. Okay. Judy Farrell. Heidi's not online. See, people say they're going to be here and then they're not. Okay. All right. I think that's it. We're ready to go. I'm sorry. I'll get better at this as I practice. No, you're doing fine. You're doing great. Don't apologize. You're doing great. Okay. Before we start, thank you. Before we start, I'm going to, we just lost Eva. Oh, we lost a couple. Crap. We are, Will is recording us. I wanted to let you know, and please mute your mics. If you go to the bottom left corner of the Skype window and hit that mic, it'll mute you so that we don't have a lot of. background noise as Cliff is talking and we're recording. And I guess that's about it. Thank you, Cliff. Oh, good grief. Thank you. I'm no expert in sponsorship. I don't think any of us ever get to that point. But there's one thing that's required if we're going to sponsor somebody. And the first thing is that we have had to take the steps and had a spiritual experience. And I think that's what we need to do. I think that's what we need to do. I think that's what we need to do. And I think that's what we need to do. I think that's what we need to do. One of the tragic things we have in our fellowship today is so many who have never taken the steps will assume the responsibility for a now college life. And the end result is that, as one of my friends and I were talking today, that really we border on slaughter the way we treat our newcomers. But we have so many unqualified people assuming that responsibility. And in most cases, they're doing it as a matter of ego. I am so proud I've got somebody to sponsor. That's entirely the wrong attitude. We've got to recognize that this is the biggest responsibility we're ever going to be faced with. So that being the case, I've got to find out how I go from being a person who is totally powerless to a person who's been given the power to help others. And as I get up and start practicing making my amends, as I'm given the opportunity, you start doing step 10 by the big book, which is 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 12, moment by moment, day by day, and learn how to communicate, mostly listen to my higher power. Most especially at the beginning of my day. And that's the first step. And then the second step. And that's the last step. Because he's been good enough to give me another day of life and sobriety. Two miracles happened again this morning. I woke up, I didn't have to have a drink. And so this is his day, not mine. And I can no longer can do what I want to do if I'm given the opportunity to try to help somebody. I've always got to keep my willingness ahead of my wants if somebody else is reaching for help. So we have a chapter in the book called Words. Words. Working with Others. And a lot of people say there are no directions for sponsorship. And I say, what on earth do you think chapter 7 is? It says working with others. What sponsorship? Working with others. And I'm going to read a little bit of this and then we'll get into the practicality of it. The practical experience shows that nothing will so much ensure immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics. It doesn't say a damn thing about meetings. It says, I've got to get to work. It says, I've got to take the steps and find others to work with. It works when other activities fail. This is our fifth suggestion. I mean, 12th suggestion. It carries this message to other alcoholics. And we can't carry it sitting on our butts. We've got to get up and go with it. You can help when no one else can. You can secure their confidence when others fail. Remember, they too are very ill. Life will take on new meaning. To watch people recover. To see them help others. To watch loneliness vanish. To see a fellowship grow up about you. To have a host of friends. Now this is an experience you must not miss. We know you will not want to miss it. Breaking contact with newcomers and with each other is the bright spot of our lives. And it certainly is. And then Bill says, well, perhaps you're not acquainted with any drinkers. I'm sure you've heard of them. I'm sure you've heard of Bill's best friends. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. Bill's friends are où do they speak. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know where they come from now and when they arrive. Well he's arrested… I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. I know Bill. What have I done? It's all over. It's all over. What other people know? All the world. Bill is calling for us to be mu strategy sorority. Bel might say, but if Bill is the Bkra with the true bazookas, if we don't catch him, what will we have? help us. Page 90. When you discover a prospect for alcoholic synonymous, find out all you can about it. If you just might want to stop drinking, don't waste time trying to persuade him. We have a lot of failures there. People who are so enthusiastic to have a sponsee. And if anybody ever figured out what the hell a sponsee is, please let me know. I've looked through the big book and I've looked through my dictionaries and I can't find that word. Friend, prospect, and protégé are the words we find in our basic text. You may spoil a later opportunity. This advice should be given to his family also. They should be patient, realizing they are dealing with a sick person. We don't want to get too eager about this. We want to make sure we've got a prospect. Bill's going to go ahead and give us a little bit of a hint. Bill's going to give us an introduction on how to approach this thing called 12-stepping in sponsoring. Now, if there's any indication that he wants to stop having a good talk with the person that's most interested in him, usually it's why. Get an idea of his behavior, his problems, his background, the seriousness of his condition, and especially his religious leanings. You need this information to put yourself in his place to see how you would like him to approach you if the tables were turned. Sometimes it's wise to wait until he goes on a binge. I don't think sometimes. I think it's always very, very positive results if we wait until he's coming off a drink. The family may object to this, but unless he is in a dangerous physical condition, it's better to risk it. Don't deal with him when he's very drunk. The poor guy's in a blackout. He doesn't even know you're there. Unless he is ugly and the family needs your help, then call the cops. Wait for the end of his spree, or at least for a lucid interval. Then let his family or friend ask him if he wants to quit for good and if he would go to any extreme to do so. The most important question an alcoholic will ever be asked. Do you really want to quit and are you willing to go to any lengths to face over? If he says yes, then his attention should be drawn to you as a person who has recovered. Again, we hear an awful lot of people in our fellowship saying there's no such thing as a recovered alcoholic. It simply says they know nothing about our program, so don't pay any attention to them. You should be described to him as one of a fellowship who is part of their own recovery. Try to help others and who will be glad to talk to him if he cares to see you. If he doesn't want to see you, then he's going to be the one to talk to. If he doesn't want to see you, never force yourself upon him. Neither should the family hysterically plead with him to do anything, nor should they tell him much about you. We're already indicating, whether we realize it or not, that some recovered alcoholics ought to be in talking to the family because they already know what not to do, what to do. And only a recovered alcoholic or a good Al-Anon, and there wasn't any when the big book was written, can do that. Neither should the family hysterically plead with him to do anything, nor should they tell him much about you. They should wait for the end of his next drinking bath. You might place this book where he can see it in the end. How'd they get a book if an alcoholic didn't take it to them? Here, no specific rule can be given. The family must decide these things, but urge them not to be over-anxious, or that might spoil matters. Usually, we're not going to be able to get a book, but we're going to have to get a book. They can't rule out the possibility of a book if we're still in the middle of a fight. So, it's a good idea to have a book for the time of the day. That's when you'll give the book to the family. And the next thing you need is a good book. And usually, the family should not try to tell your story. When possible, avoid meeting a man through his family. Approach through a doctor or an institution is better bet. If your man needs hospitalization, he should have it, but not forcibly, unless he is violent. Let the doctor, if he will, tell him to have something in the way of a solution. Now, when your man is better, the doctor might suggest a visit from you. Though you've talked, you've talked, and you've heard him say, he's a good man. The doctor might suggest a visit from you. Though you've talked with the family, leave them out of the first discussion. Under these conditions, your prospect will see he's under no pressure. He will feel he can deal with you without being nagged by his family. Call on him while he is still jittery. This is the ideal time to make a 12 step call. Get them when they're coming off a drunk. Because that's when we know we're about to die and we're willing to do anything not have to do that one more time. He may be more receptive when depressed. Well, of course he's going to be. He thinks he's going to die, so he's going to listen. But see your man alone, if possible. At first, engage in general conversation. After a while, turn the talk to some phase of drinking. Tell him enough about your drinking habits. Senses and experiences to encourage him to speak of himself. If he wishes to talk, let him do so. He will thus get a better idea of how you ought to proceed. If he's not communicating, give him the steps of your drinking career up to the time you quit. But say nothing for the moment of how that was accomplished. And here's where so many screw up a 12 step call. The opportunity to help somebody. To get them involved in... Uh... Okay, I saw your note, Julie. Oh, okay. But so many are so anxious to get them recovered, and they don't even know what they're recovering from. So Bill is going to tell us precisely how to go about giving them a cure case of the disease. We'll get it on the next page. If he's in a serious mood dwelling on the troubles the lecture had caused you, being careful not to moralize their lecture. If he's mood is light, tell him some humorous stories of your escapades. Get him to tell some of his. When he sees that you know all about drinking games, commence to describe yourself as an alcoholic. Tell him how baffled you were, how you finally learned that you were sick. Give him an account of the struggles you made to stop. Show him the middle twist which led to the first drink of his spirit. We suggest you do this as we've done in the chapter on alcoholism, chapter 3. If he's an alcoholic, he'll understand you at once. He will match your mental inconsistencies with some of his own. So the 12-step process is such a simple thing. All we have to do is talk about our favorite subject, me. We simply tell our story. And that's all we do. And Bill's going to be very specific here. Now if you're satisfied he's a real alcoholic, begin to dwell on the hopeless feature of the malady. If you're not convinced he's a real alcoholic, don't waste time. But if you've got a real one, show him from your own experience how the queer mental conditions surrounding the first drink prevents normal function of the willpower. Focus on the kinds of troubles he had. Don't at this stage refer to this book unless he's seen it and wishes to discuss it. And be careful not to brand him as an alcoholic. Let him draw his own conclusions. If he sticks to the idea that he can still control his drinking, tell him to talk the way he can. If he's not too alcoholic. But insist that if he is severely afflicted, there may be little chance that he can recover by himself. It doesn't work very well. People who can recover by themselves are not alcoholic. They're hard drinkers. They're drunkards. But Bill goes ahead with our directions. Continue to speak as... Okay, outline the program of action explaining how you made the self-appraisal. Step 4. How you straightened out your past. Step 9. Why you're now endeavoring to be helpful to him. Step 12. And this is the guts of our program. Step 4, 5, 6, and 7. 8 and 9. 10 and 11. 12. We don't have to worry about if we haven't been able to determine previously whether a person's agnostic or atheist. If they're a person of faith, then we can open it up. But the majority of us are not. The majority of us are real doubters. Some of us even, I know there ain't no such thing. And we don't want to condemn them to death by saying you gotta do it our way. Not at all. But it's important for him to realize that your attempt to pass this on to him plays a vital part in your own recovery. This is the truth that is lost in our fellowship. Totally lost. The fact that if we're going to expect to enjoy sobriety and live a long, happy life, we're going to have to devote a part of every day in trying to help other people. That is what the program's about. But he said, actually, he may be helping you more than you are helping him. Here's what he said about that. And this is this young man. Back in Chapter 3, old Jim got drunk six times in a row. Six times in a row, Bill and Fitz showed up when Jim called him. He thought they had him straightened out, and the darn fool went out and got drunk again. One more time, they showed up to help him. They really weren't concerned whether Jim made it or not, they certainly hoped he would. But they did what they did to ensure their own sobriety. I'd say this message is totally lost in the majority of our fellowship today. The idea that if we don't drink and go to meetings, we're going to be okay. And as I say, we're killing so very, very many alcoholics with that attitude. He goes ahead and again, one more time, actually he may be helping you more than you're helping him. Make it plain he is under no obligation to you that you hope only that he will try to help other alcoholics when he escapes his own difficulties. See, that's how important it is that he place the welfare of other people ahead of his own. What a novel idea. Make it clear that he is not under pressure, that he may even see you again if he doesn't want to. You should not be offended if he wants to call it off or he has helped you more than you've helped him. A truth that we choose to ignore. If your talk has been sane, quiet, full of human understanding, you perhaps have made a friend. Maybe you've disturbed him about the question of alcoholism. Now, this is all to the good. The more hopeless he feels, the better. He will be more likely to follow your suggestions. But your candidate may have reasons why he need not follow all the programs. He may rebel at the thought of a drastic housecleaning which requires discussion with other people. Do not contradict such views. Tell him you once failed as he does, but you doubt whether you would have made any progress had you not taken action. On your first visit, tell him about the fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. If he has asked, what do you do? If he hasn't, we don't mention. If he shows interest, lend him your copy of this book. That suggestion is for some poor soul, and all alone out there in this world, whether it's one sober alcoholic and one suffering alcoholic. And so some of the suggestions that Bill makes takes that into consideration. But let's go over on page 95. Unless your friend wants to talk further about himself, do not wear out your welcome. Give him a chance to think it over. If you do stay, let him steer the conversation in any direction he likes. Sometimes a new man is a good man. If he is anxious to proceed at once, then you may be tempted to let him do so. This is sometimes a mistake. If he has trouble later, he is likely to say you rushed him. And I don't rush him. But as soon as they are ready to begin the process, we don't wait a day. Never talk down to an alcoholic from any moral or spiritual hillside. Simply lay out the kit of spiritual tools for his inspector and show him how they work for you. Offer him friendship and fellowship. Tell him that if he wants to get well, you'll do anything to help him. And be sincere in that statement. We'll go to hell and back with anybody that has a willingness to follow directions. If they don't, they can go to hell by themselves. Now if he's not interested in your solution, if he expects you to act only as a banker for his financial difficulties or nerves for his threes, you may have to drop him until he changes his mind. He may do after he gets hurt some more. Yeah. If they don't have the willingness to do it, we don't push him. Get on back out there and finish the job. If he is sincerely interested and wants to see you again, ask him to read this book in the end. After doing that, he must decide for himself whether he wants to go on. He could not be pushed or prodded by you, his wife, or bad friends. If he is to find God's solution, the desire must come from within. Now if he thinks he can do the job in some other way, or prefers some other spiritual approach, encourage him to follow his own conscience. For God's sake, yes, we don't have the only solution. Salvation Army was turned out sober alcoholic 75 years before Bill and Dr. Bob ever met. We're not the only ones that have it. We just have one that's so utterly simple that if we do what the folks did that wrote the book, we're going to get the results they say they got. We have no monopoly on God. We're merely having an approach that works with us. But point out that we alcoholics have much in common. And if you would like in any case to be friendly, let it go at that. Have this experience yourself. You can give him much practical advice. The only person that has the privilege of giving advice to anyone in our fellowship is that person's sponsor. If kids in our group that I don't sponsor, I have no business nor will I give them advice. If their sponsor isn't handy and they have a problem, and ask me about it, I'll share my experience and knowledge if I have them. If not, I know most of the kids and what their problems are so I can put them in contact with somebody that could share their experience and knowledge. But if finally one of the responsibilities of a sponsor is to give their protege advice, because we know them better than they know themselves when we get hooked up. Excuse me. We're not going to talk about the spiritual awakening. We're going to talk about the spiritual awakening. We're going to talk about the spiritual awakening. That's a get along with Jesus verse. Paul says, For get along with Jesus verse. some orange juice and honey, mix it up, and give it to them to start sleeping. I may be up with them most of the night, but they're here, they can't sleep, they got the TV. Next day, we kind of nurse them along, and if they're able to tolerate any food, we may give them some chicken broth or poach them an egg or something of that nature. On about the third or fourth day, they begin to get where their mind is clearing up a little bit, their eyeballs are beginning to focus. And that's when I really sit down and tell them my story. And give them an understanding of what alcoholism is. And they understand how desperate their situation is, and they normally do. I just ask them real simply, Are you willing to go to any length to not have to go through this misery again? And I mean any length. And they say yes. And I say, well, one thing you've got to know. And that is, if you're going to follow this program that we live by, you're never going to have what you want again. You're going to have to give up your right to ever have your way again. And they look like, you know, I don't think I really am willing to do that. And I say, well, you've been having so much fun living like the way you want to, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. Now, if you want to continue to do that, you're more than welcome to. And get on out there and have all the fun you can stand. But if you never want to go through this misery again, you're going to have to make a decision to do what I ask you to do. Are you willing to do that? And most of the time they say, yep. And I say, that's the case. I want you to read this prayer, and then we're going to pray it. When they get on their knees and they pray a prayer, it's a third step prayer or some version of it. And I pray a prayer of thanks and ask that they may be able to have the willingness to follow direction and he'll open their minds so they can see what's happening. And then we get up. I hand them the four-step worksheet that Joe prepared that works so very well. And tell them to have that four-step done by tomorrow. And the next day we do our fifth step. They spend their hour. And then we get back together and see if they really, really have the willingness to become a student and practitioner of the material in the big book. And if they have that willingness, then we're going to go ahead and have them pray the seven-step prayer, make their eight-step list. And as soon as they get that done, certainly within a day, they're going to start making their amends. And as soon as they'll be willing to make their amends, we immediately start doing step 10, 11, and 12, as outlined on page 84. 103. The amazing thing of it is, if we go ahead and lead them through this process, they will recover as I did. I didn't study the big book. I read some of it, but I didn't study it. But a guy who had been greatly influenced by Clarence Snodgert came over to my house on May 26, 1984, at 1.30. He walked the door and he said, Are you ready? And I said, Yes, sir. He said, Get on your knees. And I got on my knees, and I'd never been more humiliated in my life. He said, Pray the prayer. Well, I'm an agnostic. I didn't want to pray any prayer. But he told me to, and I had to believe in this guy because he's the guy that I took coffee to back in the 60s, and he couldn't stay sober. And when I got back, the sucker had 15 years of breath. And I told him, I took you a lot of coffee. You don't remember me. But you owe me. You're going to be my son. But he got me up off my knees, and he put a legal pad of paper in front of me, and he said, Write your name and date. This is my fourth step inventory. And I did. And he said, Here, you pissed off at him. And I told him, he said, Why? And I told him, he said, Pretty self, because he wasn't. And I said, Yeah, I guess it was. He said, Right in the margins. So I wrote self. What he did to me is exactly what Abby did to Bill Wilson when Bill was in town soccer. And we spent probably two and a half hours or so. I don't remember exactly. I finally did remember. We finally got through with it. And he looked at me, and he said, Cliff, you'd say with a selfish, dishonest, self-seeking, frightened, and considered asshole you've been. And I said, Yes, Paul, I sure did. He said, You like what you see? And I said, No, I don't. He said, Are you willing to go to any length to become different? And I said, Paul, I really am. Who do you want me to take my fifth day for if you need to click or ready for a tenth step? I was absolutely amazed. That sucker had tricked me into step three, four, five, and six up to that point. He said, Bend your arm if you're sincere. Raise a seventh step first. And I did. And I didn't feel much except relief that I wasn't going to have to do it again. But that night on TV, there was a movie titled The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. And right in the middle of that movie, if you thought you may remember, you probably don't, but Bird and Dolly were sitting around the campfire talking about what their future was like, what was going to happen down the road. And during that moment in that movie, my room lit up, and I felt something flow in over and through me, and for about 20 minutes, I lived in the intimate presence of my heavenly positive. I'm an agnostic. Now I am feeling, I'm feeling his presence. And I had two pieces of information dropped in my mind. Number one was, I'll never ever have to have another drink. And number two is, I'll never have to have another problem. And I didn't know that that was a promise in the book. Bill said that Abby told him that's what would happen. And Fred in his story in chapter three said if he found that to be true, and we find on page 45, that's a promise. If he followed the direction of the big one, we'll have a solution. We'll solve our problem. But our job with a newcomer is to number one, give them a killer case of the disease. In doing so, they get the hope. And once they get the hope, they've got to make a decision. They're at that turning point. Are you going to do what I tell you to do, or are you not? It's just that simple. And if you do, we're going to get on our knees, pray the prayer. I'm going to get you to do the fourth step, which you're going to have done by tomorrow, we're going to do the fifth step. We're also going to review step six, which is do you have the willingness to go ahead and study this book and do what you're supposed to do, or wrote it? And if you are, then finish your decision if you started on page 63. Confirm that decision. The third step prayer and the seventh step prayer are one prayer separated by two pieces of action and a commitment. The willingness to become a Christian. And the second is to become a student and practitioner of this book. The eighth step list is all but done because we take it off of column one of our fourth step. And if we follow directions in the big book, we will have the willingness that it's necessary to begin making amends. And the only problem with steps eight and nine is the willingness. But once we start making amends, we immediately, and here's where I make them read the book, read to the middle of page 84. This is how you do step two. to 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 12. Moment by moment, day by day. And if you do that, then you're not going to be cobbed up with resentments and fear and guilt and loneliness and self-pity and jealousy and all that garbage. The manifestation's itself. And you're going to be able to sit down in the morning when you wake up and have a conversation, a visit with your heavenly father. And let him know how much you appreciate the fact that you woke up today and didn't have to have a drink. You're a miracle. Let him know you appreciate that and then find out what he's got for you to do today. God gave us one mouth, two ears. And when we have our quiet time, we need to communicate with him accordingly. But once we have learned to keep the moment clear through step 10 and communicate, begin to learn to communicate with our heavenly father, we've got a job to do. And the job is right now, you're going to go to a wind-up joint, and this may be day 7 or 8 or 9 or at least 10. And you're going to start looking for somebody to help. Now, I know that you feel insecure. But I've taught you what you've experienced. And your job is to pass that on to other people. So if you have questions, call me. Don't do anything you're in doubt about. But you're going to do it. And you're going to find out you know far more than you think you know. And you're going to find a real joy of what this thing's about when you see that person say, will you please show me what you do? And you sit down and recognize you've taken that person's life into your responsibility. And your job simply is to introduce them to the simplicity of our program, helping them experience it. And once they've experienced it, it's their job to go find somebody else to pass it on to. And that's how Sample It Is. The difficult part is taking the steps and learning how to live a life that is devoted to helping other people. Because we're all selfish people. We want our way to hell with everybody else. Now, we've got to learn how to. To get rid of that attitude. To get rid of that spiritual malady that everybody thinks is something other than what it is. Spiritual malady is nothing but our selfishness. Period. Paragraph. So we've begun that we're coming in as very selfish people. We take these steps and begin to practice them and we learn how to become selfless people. And in doing so, in helping others, in working with others, the idea of drinking was no longer there. We have been restored to sanity. And we see that promise on page 84. We have been restored to sanity. The hope we had in step two is now promised in step two. If you say really sponsorship is exceedingly simple if we don't let our ego get involved. And if we keep all this other crap that keeps flowing into our fellowships out of our responsibility of helping a person recover. That's one of the great truths of the Bible. The vastness of the tragedies we have in our fellowships. So much garbage. To just creep into our meetings that people think is gone. No. There are 20 pages in the big book that tell us precisely how to get from being a hopeless to a recovered. And 20 more pages tell us what to do to make our life better than anything we ever dreamed. Questions or comments? Oh, Carrie is saying... Can I please everybody? No. Carrie's got a question. Let's say someone takes steps 1 through 12 and is daily doing 10, 11, 12 as written. Would there ever be a reason to go back and take an issue like money issues and rework the steps 1 through 12 on that topic? This question was posed to me and so I'm wondering what Cliff would say about it. No. Absolutely not. It's all covered in the Bible. It's all covered in 15. There's no reason to go back and reduce on the... Unless you happen to have another problem that you have not been willing or able to admit. I'm running that... It's not uncommon at all. Very often with the ladies I work with, it's not uncommon for one of them to finally come to terms with the fact that they've got a food problem. Joni's in contact with one that I have been working with for quite a while. And finally all of a sudden she said, you know what, I've got a food problem. It's not all that uncommon for me to find one of the guys I'm working with that's not been completely honest with me. He's a sex addict. So she thinks when that happens then they've got to start from scratch with somebody who understands that problem. But no. We don't have that. We don't have that. But no. We don't go back and revisit the problems. Those are taken care of. We're doing what we're supposed to. Our problems are solved. And with somebody like the person that you've mentioned, what I do with them is a one, two, and then we just look at tens. You know, because they're doing four or five. They don't have to go all the way through the steps again. Well, it depends, Joni. Because when I get involved with guys... I know you're involved with sex problems. Sometimes there's some truth that needs to be revealed. And so we go through and really go through the process. Well, I'm just talking about food people. Yeah. I don't know anything about that sex stuff. Well, I did... The question was asked and I was just explaining the only time that I have found where it's necessary to revisit is where somebody has come to truth about another problem they have that's very defeating. And I'm going to ask you to tell me what that is. Okay. I think... Okay. I think... Hey, we have a question. Do you want us to ask it or Skype it to you? We can try talking, but I have a little bit of trouble sometimes when we've got this many on. But let's give it a try. Can you hear me okay? Yes, I can. Oh, and now she said go ahead and type it. Okay. Well, Magdalena has a question. Okay. So, I'm going to ask you to try and talk to someone. I'm going to ask you to talk to someone. Okay. And then I'm going to ask you to talk to someone. Okay. So, I'm going to ask you to talk to someone. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hello, Cliff. I was wondering... We were doing the reading and I'm wondering about... On your first visit to a man, do you want do basically just talk to them about your experience and what happened to you? And then... Do you always want to let them read the book at the interval or what if they're ready to get started? Well, I told you if I can find one coming off a drunk I bring them home. gesagt? home and dry them out because that's what we were doing back in the 60s when they found me and it worked so well for me and all the people that were there at that time. That isn't very well accepted or even known in today's fellowship. I know Peter over in France tried it here not long ago, it was an amazing success. I've got a couple of my kids who tried with some of their, where they were fortunate enough to find somebody coming off a drink. Most people today want the comfort of pills to get through the process and as a result of it, almost all of them are going to be back out there drinking in no time at all. Probably didn't answer your question. I was going to just say that I've had a bunch of friends who have been in the house that got rid of their trash before they walked in the door. Yep. Well, another situation for alcoholics is if they've been to treatment, they're almost all ready back in the mood to go get a drink. They don't recognize it but they've already ordered the next drink. And what I do with them is I've come up with a series of questions. What do you do with them? Well, I've got a bunch of friends that are in the house that are in the house that are doing the same thing. Well, first of all an overview, I've got through chapter five and then a series of questions that I want them to find the answer to. And I give them two days to get it done. They've already convinced me in their own mind that they're alcoholics and they're willing to do anything, they're not after drinking. They will tell me if you're willing to go to any length, let's get this done in two days. Most of them of course don't, so I don't have to waste time with them. And the ones that do, some do and some don't. The tragedy of that with the alcoholic is we give them 30 days from their last drunk. The odds are very, very great that they're going to be out there drunk again in no time. The simple truth of the matter is I get information out of our intergroup office. It gives us a real good indication of what a failure we are in meeting our responsibility to newcomers anymore. I did not break it down a piece of the time. Ten years ago, we had well in the clip of 20,000 people who indicated they wanted to quit drinking, good and all. And I said half of them were kidding, so we got 10,000. Ten years later, last year, there were only about 200 people that were here to celebrate 10 years of Brian. So from 10,000 to 200 is pretty indicative of where we are in our fellowship. It's done. The emphasis is on meetings, not the sex. In fact, as a general statement, the fellowship and the program don't even marry each other anymore. They don't even recognize each other. The fellowship is completely devoid of our program, with only a very few exceptions. You know, Cliff, I hear people in food programs talk about long-term abstinence with months or weeks. Yeah. Yep. And my attitude about that is, I don't care how long you haven't had a drink. What are you doing to show how much you appreciate something? Length of sobriety doesn't impress me. I've got some kids in our group that are less than six months, and now they're sponsoring people, and they're doing a wonderful job. Those are the ones that I want to encourage. Yep. Um, Carrie's asking, you freely exchange belief with hope as in step two. Is that based on your experience, knowing that they only need a little hope? Well, they get the hope by seeing that you have recovered. You tell your story of how bad it was, and they look at you and say, my God. Just like old Dr. Bob did Bill. Man, what is it you're doing? Because Bill gave him a killer case of alcohol. It was the first time ever. He did it the way he was supposed to. He didn't talk about his hot flag. He didn't manage to recover. He simply told him about his drinking experience. How desperately he tried to stop, what a failure he was at stopping, how he met Dr. Silkworks and found out that he had a problem. A physical and a mental problem that was condemning him to death by drinking or wet brain insanity. And Dr. Bob said, I'll be damned. Dr. Bob had been going to the Oxford group two and a half years ago. Bill had only been going five months. Dr. Bob couldn't stay sober. Bill was sober. But Bill gave him the hope. Back when, on September 15, 1964, when Jim Valentine came into my home and told me a story, I got some hope. The hope comes from us telling a person our story. And they're hurting like hell. And they look and see. They're weird and feeling pretty good. Looking good. You read Abby Adele's story. Abby showed up two months sober. Bill couldn't believe it. It just seems Abby's sober. Gave him hope. But then Abby screwed it up. Because when Bill said, what's gotten into you, Abby said, I've got religion. And Bill said, oh hell, another one of those damn religious fanatics. I ain't going to listen to my buddy. I'm going to drink his boot. I'm going to drink his boot. Hope comes from hearing a recovery. Alcoholics tell their story. In your case, I'm sure it's the same thing. Been through the misery. You've taken the steps. You have recovered. But you don't tell them about taking the steps. You have recovered. Once they hear how bad it was and how good you're looking now and how long it's been since you've had to do your thing, they're going to get hope. And that's all step two is. I hope this thing might work for me. It's that simple. They get the hope. I've seen somebody with the same problem. Who knows the misery of that problem. But is somehow or other no longer having to live with that problem. You just found out you've got lung cancer. The person across the street had lung cancer five years ago. And they're blowing and going and having a wonderful time. What's the first thing you're going to do when you get home? You know that person's been living. Five years after diagnosis of lung cancer, you're going to call over there and get over there as soon as you can. I've got what you have. What did you do? Give me some hope. And that's what we do. And with that, then it's a decision. Are you going to do what I do or not? If you are, let's do it. If you're not, go away. Don't hang around here and get more confused. Either do it or go away. And that's what a good sponsor does. Cliff, when do you have them read the book? Is it after they get into 10, 11, and 12? It's in as a... We go through the first seven steps by experience. I just lead them through. And then I explain to them what they've got to do. And we go over making their amends. And I show them the prayers. And most people don't know there are any prayers in the big book. It says it's a set. Twenty-some prayers. One or more for each and every step. But I then take them to page 84. And we go to page 83 and read the promise. If you've really done what I told you to, you see what you've got. And they've already experienced it. Now they see them in print. And this is the thing that's so fascinating. They see it in print. It was for me and it is for so many of the kids I work with. I didn't study the big book until I had a spiritual experience. And then when I started studying it, I thought, oh my God, that's it. Right. Then I saw in print what I'd experienced. And it all began to make sense. But we go through word for word through chapter, I mean, step 10 and 11. And then I get them out with the kids in our group. We've got about 42 places. We're taking a message of the big book every week. And I get them to go check out a couple, three of those and find out which one they want to commit to. And every week they're going to be at that place, one or more, with the big book in hand looking for somebody they can help. One of the things I tell all the kids I work with, in fact, everybody in the group, if you find somebody that's coming off a drunk, you give them your telephone, your name and number. If you get their name. You call them the next day and let them know you care. It's one of the things very few people are doing anymore. By the time we get ready to come to Alcoholics Anonymous, nobody wants anything to do with us. We are the scum of the earth. Nobody cares about us. So when they go up here and people put a Hank Gladhand on them at their first meeting and then walk off and leave them standing there wondering, what do I do next? If they're in our group, they're supposed to go up and. Give them their name and number, but make sure they got their name and number. And they call them and let them know, how are you doing? What can I do to help? And once they understand we really care, there's a good chance they're going to take advantage of us. And when they take advantage of us, we're just ensuring our own sobriety. Our own abstinence. We don't have to be smart. In fact, being smart is one of the worst things we can be. Just read the black words on the white pages and do what you understand it says to do. And then as Julianne says, when you close a book, the big book prairie is going to slip in there and rewrite part of it. So you've got to go back and do it again. And I've been doing it for 25 years and I'll be damned if they don't click something in every time. You know, Joe McHugh did it for over 45 years when I was with him the last time. 45 years. And I said, Joe, you got it right yet? And he said, no, Cliff, not yet. I'm still learning. Amazing piece of literature, I'll tell you. Elaine is asking, once you work through the steps with a protege, how long do you continue to work with them? Oh, I'm available to them as long as they stick around. But... After they've started doing what I've asked them to. And they call with some trivial stuff and I ask them number one. Oh, can I say? Tell them. What part of all don't you understand? That's one of it. Did you take a third step? Now, did you wake up this morning? Yep. Did you have to have a drink? Nope. Are you a miracle? Yep. Then shut the fuck up and go find somebody to help you. Let him know how much you appreciate. Or I might, if they've been around a while, ask them, how much time do you spend in prayer and meditation this morning? Well, who have you tried to help so far today? Well, then what the hell are you calling me for in a hang-up? Now, if they've got a serious problem, and some of my kids do, then we're going to do all the talking that's necessary. But just for the everyday trivial stuff, I don't hire on to the listeners like that. They've got a solution for that problem. Go find somebody to help. Make sure you did ten, do ten, moment by moment, day by day. Make sure you spend an adequate amount of time in attempted communication with your heavenly father. Go find somebody to help. If you're not doing that, don't bother me. Julianne is asking, what if you get someone with time? Do you go through the steps again, and how do you hold them accountable? The same as a newcomer? Yeah. I mean, alcoholism is alcoholism. Spirituality is spirituality. I've got some that have had a number of years of sobriety and go slip, come back in. But most of the people that have double-digit sobriety and go into discussion meetings and don't want anything to do with us, we have a few. But most of them just... Their ego just won't let them give up. They've just got to be where they can talk. And of course, in our meetings, nobody talks but the chairperson and the person who is answering the question. We use a study guide. It examines almost every sentence in the big book. We go through normally on Tuesday night. We cover two pages. And that's about the way it goes. It takes about... It takes about 18, 19 months to get through one study. And that's why we have what we call our foundation. It's really a beginner's meeting. It really emphasizes what the problem is and how utterly simple our program is. Do we have Helene with us? Yes. Okay. Okay. I've got her. We've got her. No, it doesn't make any difference. It's either we do it or we don't. It makes no difference. It's how long we've been around. I choose to find them, if I can, coming off a drunk because they're so easy. And I get such a thrill out of having them lay here and smell them and watch them. I have a recall of the misery I was going through that's bad enough to make me call this bunch of losers or dams alcoholics. I don't know. on as people. See, most of the people I get to work with have been keeping coming back for five, ten, twenty years. Yeah. And just doing the same thing and not getting anywhere. They always have a topic for a discussion meeting. Yep. And the question I have is what is there to discuss? Nothing. Majority of the people on this call have been around for a long time and then have met up with a solution. Yeah. I bet people can see a difference in them too. The prize is worth the price. So take willingness to follow directions and be willing to help any time we're given the opportunity. That's the deal he cut. If we do what he wants us to do he'll see we have everything we need. Do you see Elaine's note? Yep. I stay out of the God thing with the newcomers. Because I was an agnostic that if Jim had mentioned God or spirituality to me when he came that first day I'd never had anything to do with it. That's why I say in reading that part of chapter seven make sure we find out if we can what their attitude is so far in spirituality before we ever mention it. I don't know. No way of ever knowing how many alcoholics have gone back and drank and died. Because somebody tried to make them to think about getting holy. We don't come to get holy. We come to survive. And we don't have to believe in God at all. In fact, I use this example more often than I care to. But I know how many times people have been offended because somebody got too enthusiastic about the spirituality. But I did remind them that Dr. Bob and Ann were people of faith. They went to church. Bill and Loic were agnostics. They accepted the fact there was a guiding influence in the universe. But he really didn't care about people like them. And then we had Jim Burwell. He was an absolute atheist. Completely different thoughts about this God idea. From a yes, I believe, to no, there ain't one. But all three of them lived the rest of their lives sober because they all cared one thing and one thing only. The complete willingness to do what they were told to do by a recovered alpha. Bill tells us that in his story. The only thing we need is complete willingness to shut up and do what we're told. And then we're going to meet God as I do. Many others do. I have no doubt about him anymore. He and I are real good friends. But when AA found me and even when Paul tricked me into taking a step and I didn't know what I was doing, it worked. So I've got to be very, very mindful and I really beat on my kids to make sure you don't start getting them into recovery and acquainted with God before they understand how hopeless their condition is. And back on page 132, it's a very simple answer to the ones who have a resistance. And it says very simply, we have recovered and been given the power to help others. So I run into atheists and I've had a bunch of them over the years. And they tell me I don't believe in God. I say, I don't give a damn what you believe and don't believe. Do you want to quit drinking or not? Or do you have the willingness to do what I tell you to do? I found the power to make me live slow. So I've got the power and if you have any confidence in me, you can use my power until you find your own. And if you do, what I tell you to, you'll find it. I just want to make sure we don't get the cart before the horse is bell dead for four months and ran off every prospect. But I'm talking about alcoholics. Okay, Elaine is asking what forms are you talking about with the fourth step? They're on our website, Elaine, if you're on the Yahoo group. If not, I can email them to you. And Holly is asking, you talk about finding alcoholics? Okay. Holly, I think Joni is far more qualified to answer that than I would be. I can only suspicion that you're best bet with these contact doctors and possibly ministers that you know. And maybe you've got folks that work in a hospital or doctor's office. It's not as easy to find your prospects as it is for us to find ours until we can smell ours before we ever get to them. I'm laughing because Holly knows how I found her. I think that's where I found her. Lurking on another list of her. And I find a lot of people there. But going, going into OA rooms, you can find them. Somebody put cards, got permission to put cards in a gym, which is a really good place to find them, especially around New Year's. You guys, you're ingenious, Joni. That wasn't my idea. I thought it was a good one, though. Well, I think it's a hell of a good idea. Spread them around. Yep. No, alcoholics are real easy to find when we're beat to the ground. We wind up in dumps that nobody would ever think about going to. But we go to them and we find them down there and we tell them our story. Or we present the big books to the whole bunch and we don't have AA meetings in wind-up joints. We just do the big books so anybody and everybody that's got a problem can understand how simple it is. You know, another good place, when I came down and went to the wind-up joint, um, with Dara, um, a lot of people that are in treatment for alcohol and drugs have food issues. Finding that to be true. The problem you have in that, though, is that so very, very few people in AA are willing to do that. They don't want to sit in meetings and talk about my day, my what. And even though we try to remind them that for every one of us sitting in a meeting there are 20 out there dying of alcoholism. But who cares? I just want to tell people that my poor little old cat died today and how sad I am. Or my boss didn't give me the raise I think I deserve. Or my wife thinks maybe if she just can't stand me anymore I'm going to get a divorce. Elaine, I just took the steps, honey. I guess you weren't here when I told you how one afternoon I went from being an agnostic to having this pivotal experience and becoming a real hard believer. Step three, four, five, six, and seven in one afternoon. And that night I was blessed to meet him in a very intimate way. That's the promise of the steps. If we take the steps precisely as they'll add in the big book from page 64. By the time we get to page 83 we will have recovered. We will have had a spiritual experience or a spiritual wasting in process. And if we want more of it then we've got to study the next 20 pages and do precisely what it says to do. Just following the directions in the big book has one purpose only. It's right at the very, very first statement in step 12. Having, having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these things. That's the promise of the steps. Get the power by the time we get to step nine we have recovered. But we can't say that. We've either got to grow spiritually or we're going to go back. So step 10 and 11 take care of the moment and our communication with our source of life and surprise. Step 12 is where we live our life. Our life would be devoted, to helping others. And that's stated very clearly on page 77 the third line down. Our real purpose in taking these steps and following these directions is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us. The alcoholic thing I am normally introducing to God before they ever read the book and hear anything about it. They haven't had that experience. And the big book only confirms what they have done. That's just the way it is with alcoholic times. If you read the big book you're going to see where Bill recognizes in chapter, well he mentions it several times. In fact he tells his own story how just the mention of God just set him off on a tooth. But he wrote chapter 4 we agnostic for people like me. And when I read chapter 4 having had a spiritual experience it made so much sense to me. And I read that before I'd been totally turned on. So that's what the steps are for to take us to a place where we can plug into the power. And it's a promise if we do what the book says to do we will be plugged into the power. And do we have the willingness to get more of it? Well that becomes very clear. It's a very big question. Most people do not have the willingness. In alcoholic times. Elaine says she's taken the steps and has recovered and yet there are times she doesn't feel that closeness. She wants to be closer. Does this come with time? It comes with following the directions 10, 11 and 12. When we go, we go out and out and in which direction? We do and we go out. And when we want to go around we have to have it. When that happens it's constantlyununMr. Move and move, move, move. And that will suck mentalützen's. kierstyou're going beyond what you actually do. Dream of bringing you back in. When do you make your choice? Did you manifested the strength, I'm calling Cliff Baggs. Is anybody else out there? Can you hear me? I hear you, Joni. Okay, thanks. So that it sounded very quiet. Okay, cool. Well, I don't know where I was when it dropped off. He didn't drop off the screen, so I thought I was just talking to a whole bunch of you. But I know he's on duty when I wake up and don't have to have a drink. There's no question. I've been given almost 44 years of life. I didn't deserve and I don't deserve, and I've screwed it up for 13 years. But every morning I wake up and don't have to have a drink, I know he's on the job and I better be. The thing that's so vital to me is that I've just got to remember I'm a miracle, and any and every opportunity he gives me to try to help somebody else, I've got to take advantage of it. I've got to put my wants aside and do what he has for me to do. I do an awful lot of things I don't want to do. I almost hate it. I don't listen to fifth steps anymore because it's so damn boring. I pray on my earth prayer, Dear God, please let me hear something this time that I haven't heard before, but it doesn't happen. But that doesn't have anything to do with anything. The fact I don't want to, I've got to give that up and be willing to do it. And so I do. There are times when I don't want to do a big book thing on Skype. It doesn't make any difference. I'm going to do it. I was given a dose. And the day he's given me is for me to do what he has for me to do. And I've just got to pay attention. If he gives me an opportunity to help somebody, I better do it. That is the deal we've got. He's going to let me live and enjoy life and have everything I need as long as I'm willing to try to help anybody that's after him or even in the case they might have an answer. It's simple but not easy sometimes. very pure hope si Thank you. Thank you. And my job is to take care of the assignment he has for me. I never know what the assignment is until it pops up. In the early days, I went looking for it. I got myself volunteering in the hospital. I got myself volunteering in the drunk tank. I got myself volunteering at Salvation Army. I wanted to be where I could smell it and see it. But anymore, it's just what we're doing right here. I don't remember how Johnny and I got in touch with each other. But I remember. I remember I fell in love with her and some other gals last February, I think it was, when we had our anniversary. They came to our anniversary, and we had a Sunday morning together. And I said, he said, can you kind of guide us along the path in the middle because I don't understand food problems. So I can't do one or two or 12. But I certainly can help people with 3 through 11. There comes every program, every 12-step program, that exists. The most unfortunate thing is that the vast majority of fellowships have discarded the program for ideas that seem to be better than God's idea. I ain't buying it anymore. Did this help anybody with sponsorship? Oh, yeah. It's all these samples. It really, really is. The thing I've been really encouraged with my kids is, don't you dare depend on me. You depend on the source of your life and survival. And we want you to get out there and look for people to help, so you do that. You're going to end up telling me it's really a problem, let me know, and either it's something I can do or I can't do it. I'm going to let you know. I'm going to let you know. I'm going to let you know. I'm going to let you know. I'm going to let you know. We can talk about it, or we'll let him talk. If you're doing what you're supposed to, you're not going to have to deal with problems. Sandy's asking, out of curiosity, what do you think about the practice of receiving medallions? Well, frankly, I don't care much for it. But the thing I've come to recognize, and one of my dear old friends, and one of my old friends made this statement, it really changed my attitude a bit. He said, what we do at birthdays is we seem to have a tendency to praise people, to tell us how proud we are of them. He said, that's not what a birthday celebration is about. It's celebrating the miracle of sobriety. It's celebrating the miracle of God's work in the life of alcoholics. And when I heard him say that, I thought, you know what? That's a miracle. It's a truth. This may be the only time that many of our kids will have a chance to stand in front of a bunch of people and say my name, and I'm an alcoholic, and I have not had to have a drink for whatever period of time. And here's what I'm doing to show my appreciation. And every time we have our birthday celebration, and I get to introduce one of my kids, I remind people we're not here celebrating what they did. We're celebrating what God did. We're celebrating what God's done because they were willing to follow the directions. You know, I think one of the things that I'm finding so valuable in birthday celebrations is the big holes. You normally have one year or two years, three, four, five, and then all of a sudden, there's a hole. And we get above ten, and there are a lot of holes. And that way I can use you to point out the subtle insanity. And I think that's the insidious insanity of alcoholism. We had a whole bunch of these people that celebrated one or two or three or four or five years. But they're not here to celebrate these years where we have nobody celebrating. They got complacent. Where they are, we don't have any idea. But if they're real alcoholics, we can pretty well guess what they're doing. If they're still alive. But it's a custom. It's a tradition of a sort in our part of the country. And I personally just wouldn't do without it for my standpoint. But I found those two values. One is to recognize really what we're celebrating. And number two is to demonstrate the insidious insanity of the disease of alcoholism. Elaine is saying she believes the medallions give hope to the newcomers. Well, at least the people who are accepting them should. I don't know if the medallions themselves have anything to do with it. I think the only time a medallion really had any influence is back when Mother Ignatia would give them to, I mean Sister Ignatia would give them to the folks that had been in the ward there at St. Thomas Hospital. Because she told them, I'm going to give you the bleeding heart medallion. Now before you take a drink, if you just think you're going to take a drink, you've got to bring that back to them. You cannot have it and drink two, so you bring it back to me before you drink. And that may have been one of the reasons we had such a very high rate of success of long-term sobriety. Those folks, the alcoholics, would not face that crazy plague. But I think that's where the whole idea came from. Now what really gives newcomers hope is seeing people who have recovered. And see, that's all we did before the grapevine screwed everything up with an idea we ought to have a discussion meeting. But all of our meetings were speaker meetings where a recovered alcoholic told what they were like, what happened to them, and what their life's like now. And in doing that, the newcomer could see, my God, they've been where I am. They said they did this other stuff where they found a sponsor that showed them how to do it. And my God, look at how he looks. That's how she looks. And they tell about the quality of their life. And that's what we did in the early days that made it so successful. Recovered alcoholics were the only ones that talked to me. And from that, those who came for help or just to check us out, to find out there were people who'd been where they are, they had recovered. And they weren't just not drinking and miserable as hell. They were really having a ball. And that gave the newcomer the encouragement. The hope that this thing might work for them too. This is great. Anybody have any more questions? Comments? Carrie's writing. Lane, you kind of touched my heart tonight. My wife. Gal, I met when I was 14. And I had her until a couple of years ago. We had 67 years together. Wow. So you're loved, dear lady. Thank you. But I've got to tell you something. Letting me do what you let me do is the thing that is saving my life. I still miss her so much every day. And Joe passed away last October. Only by being able to pass on what he gave me. I know how Good life剃t I've been through. I miss her and Milton. Everyone of you. Leave from Valhalla the estos right now. I thought you'd never be able to look back. It makes life an incseparable experience today. And something I've really enjoyed doing. And something I look forward to Being able to do again. But you all are such a blessing to me. And if there's no way I can tell you how much you mean to me. But yes. I'm hard ass as can be about this thing called alcoholism and recovery. I've seen way too many alcoholic c groups. Damn serious business. I sure appreciate this. I keep telling you, Cliff, we're not done with you. Well, I hope you're neither. I'm getting a kick out of all of this. I mean, I really enjoyed it. It's just such a thrill to see people gain the enthusiasm to put this thing to work and then see how exciting it is. Yeah, life is good. And that's what Bill told us on page 163, what, I mean, 64, 163, 64. The real joy is seeing others recover and them help others. And that's my joy. Never. Never could believe that we could communicate the big book the way we do on Skype and have the success we do in sponsoring people that live thousands of miles away. Those who are willing to put it to the test and found this thing really works, if we worked. It's amazing. It's just amazing. It is. I just get real teary-eyed sometimes thinking about how blessed I am and how thankful I am that everything just came out the mostarda way that I can be. This is such a unique experience that we have. So, Pauline has been perfect and she's perfect for what? She's perfect. She's perfect. She played so much. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. tell the old ones what this thing's about and make them feel like changelings sitting on the ramp doing nothing but getting hips flicking cooing Joni it looks like Elaine's wanting to get to know you a lot better and Joni's a gal worth getting to know real well too yes a very determined lady to approve a point and I'm on her side oh okay um what's your email address Elaine I have sent you a private window Elaine I was um I want to get your phone number and your email address and I'll send you the forms and I'll send you an invitation to the yahoo group I love watching the pencils write yeah I'm sitting here watching them so here we go okay someone this past weekend at my local meeting praised her protege for having finished writing her fourth and fifth step in the first year and she thought this was fast how do we correct this message in a kind and loving way hey well the only way to do it is catch a prospect and don't let him spend a year either do it or get the hell out of here can Elaine attend the 11 a.m. Monday Skype absolutely Elaine oh I'm answering that she can there's room for her Elaine you want to come to the noon meeting on Monday anybody else that's on here that's interested just let me know my goal is to make sure that any Skype conference is filled so that we have as many people as we can on the calls oh no it would be 9 pacific time 9 a.m. 9 a.m. Monday pacific time let's see we've got one got one we're doing it will be mercy my mind's failing me my former OA sponsor's in her third year of writing a book her third year of writing a fourth step is that gossip she may be a hard eater not a real food addict we've got let's see we've got Wednesday Thursday and Friday got one at one o'clock Dallas time which would be 11 o'clock your time Elaine if that could work out for you I'll put you in contact with the host of those three meetings I'm doing the staff for one group at 630 430 your time on the West Coast well I'm if you kind of like to check into this why don't you I have I can send me as well go ahead yeah I can do that clip too I have the list yeah what's the topic on Monday good morning everyone I'm Elaine I'm going to go through the book it's the all of the meetings just clips basically going through a chapter a week no we don't use I don't encourage newcomers to use a 12 and 12 their essays it's a great second book but there are a lot of good second books and and Bill said it people who would take time to read it forward to the 12 and 12 would see where Bill said the big book was and still is the basic tech for alcoholics and until we have really gotten I won't say mastered but have really put the program of the test out of the big book I discourage any other reading or or any other instruction because it's too difficult to get our practical pragmatic mind to surrender to this stuff it makes absolutely no sense and once we find out we've done it then we're free to study about anything we want to but the big book is what I live by yep I'm reading an awful lot of second books but still my whole life is based on what is in the big book it works perfectly how not to subscribe no i don't have έد mutation no one remembered me you provide me sophisticated news I don'y call it At Jonathan Lane hi this is a problem you know I don't have it at all let her work Mom encima Smith Allie says It's crazy to me how power of the Fellowship has gone from the big book and the primary purpose found in the world work and recover like I've experienced through this format is nearly unheard of around here working with kids all the way from Sweden to New Zealand and courts all around the country. What we do is attract an awful lot of ridicule and criticism. Yep. And we claim to be above average intelligence. No, that's the truth, Holly. It's just heartbreaking when we see how far we've drifted from what our fellowship's about. The thing that's so alarming, the thing that got me started on really taking a critical look at what's going on is an article, it's a transcript of a talk made by a guy named Bob Bacon in 1936. In 1976, he was a delegate for the northeast Ohio area, the Akron area. And Bob said by 1976 that he couldn't find big books of meetings and we weren't telling the newcomer we had to go to any length to survive. We didn't tell them they had to take the test. We didn't tell them about the importance of the tradition. And Joe gave me a copy of that and I read it and I started paying attention. I thought, good God, amazing. This is exactly what's going on. And I found out, well, anyway, I said early on all we had were speaker meetings. When I got back, all we had were discussion meetings. And I wasn't aware of it, but almost all the groups had given up the speaker meetings and anything with the big books so they could have a place where they could talk about their problems, their ideas, their opinions. On page 52 in the big book, Bill outlines the bedevilments that alcoholics, alcoholics experiencing early in their normal life. And I just thought when I read that, well, hell, those are the topics we're hearing discussion meetings. Uncreated alcoholism. Uncreated alcoholics sharing their experience with absolutely no strength and no hope. It's tragic. It's tragic. One of the things that has driven me, has driven me crazy is you sit in meetings where they say just don't eat no matter what. And then when somebody eats, well, they don't want it enough. Yep. I hear that when they say don't drink no matter what. I said, hell, I'd drink no matter what. Right. What else am I going to do? They offered me money not to eat and I did anyway. I think you got the same kind of solution we've got, Joanie. Mm-hmm. If he is powerful enough to have let an old sucker like me live this long, so he can damn sure take care of any problem out there. But he's very demanding. He really expects me to do his will, not mine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All things. All. A double L. Capital letters. Exclamation mark. You know, I have to ask that question several times a week. What part of all do you not understand? Well, I hope somebody got something out of this. No. I'm not speaking for others. I'm talking about some accessibility, but what happens if we defund. Dr. You know, the decision that we have is to respond. To. The human, not all possibilities. You mean. to understand the problem, and to give them the hope of recovery, and then lead them along the path that promises recovery. Take good steps through page 88, and you will have the power to help others. And if you don't do it, he'll take it away from you. I call him TXU Electric. That's the name of our electric company here in Dallas. And TXU Electric, as long as I pay my monthly bill, they're going to keep me provided with the power I need. But you let them miss a couple of months, and they're going to cut it off in a yanky minute. They don't care who I am or what I am. They demand that I pay it. And when I said only about 2% of the people that said they wanted to quit drinking were here 10 years later, obviously they quit paying their bill. And he pulled the power on them. Hmm. Elaine says she's picking up that it's vital to help, and she's been so much into her job lately, she hasn't had much chance, and maybe that's why at times she feels distant. She sees on page 97 you have to act a good Samaritan every day. I need to get out of myself and into helping someone else. That's about a money line. Yep. A real purpose in this program. The program is to feed ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people he puts in our lives with special emphasis on those who have the problems that we have had and been blessed with recovery. We are the best. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm a clean. Sandy says, Elaine, I have some experience on that topic. I left a job recently because I got that inner nudge that if I stayed there, I would eat and drink again. I did not expect the idea that I developed a lifestyle embodiment when I knew that I would need to. I still with my friends. I just need a little success. Holly says, I feel maybe a little too high on my pedestal, but I find it difficult to go to some in-person meetings because the message that I get from that is you need to be around for years, and maybe you'll be lucky enough for abstinence to smack you in the head. I have found that it's more about working the scabs than doing 8, 9, 10, 20 hours a month like that. That's right. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. That's a good point. eight, nine, ten, when they creep up and doing service, that part I need to real jump into. Yep. Mm-hmm. We don't begin our recovery until we start making amends, and immediately we are to learn how to do 10, 11, and 12 by the book. AJ43103 gives us clear-cut directions to meet our responsibility. Thank you. What is abstinence without recovery, Holly F.? Nothing. I call that white knuckling. I'll eventually go back to the hurtful things. Yep. I'll just have to eat. Straighten out, I thought it said hurtful thighs, and I thought, what are you doing? Hurtful thighs. Ha, ha, ha. Ha, ha, ha. Sandy, I had a protege ask me today how it is that I could stop. I'll still be doing amends after all this time. I said that I'll be doing amends for the rest of my life. As my consciousness gets cleaner, I remember more harms I've done, and I want to clean up the mess. And for many amends, it's going to take a lot of 10, 11, and 12 to become spiritual enough to make amends to some of these people. I'm not through. I never will be. Of course, in my life, probably most of them are dead. But if I meet some of the people in my past that I haven't seen, I will certainly make amends to them. Because it says I've got to go to them in a helpful and forgiving spirit confessing my former ill feeling. And I can't remember anybody in my life that I didn't have the ill feelings for. Ha, ha, ha. So, anything else? Are we done? Just lost somebody. Thank you. Cliff, I heard it. Oops, he's busy. Maybe this is our, oh, thank you, Julianne, for being here. Thank you, everybody. It appears that we're done. I'm trying Cliff one more time. Didn't know we dropped out. Oh, okay. Yep, we dropped out. I think we're just about done. Sandy's left. Well, it looks like Holly's writing, so I think she doesn't appear to be on, so I don't understand. But there's a lot I don't understand. Oh, yeah, Holly's on. I see her on. Yep. I'm here, but I just wanted to. Well, Holly, we appreciate you. In fact, I appreciate all of you so very, very much. Just never will know how much you all mean to me. Thanks for being here, Susan. Yep. And everybody. Really appreciate it, Susan. Yep, everybody. Get on out there and find a newcomer and kick ass and put a smile on their face and God will sure keep one on yours. It works. Thanks, Johnny. Thanks so much, honey. Thank you. Elaine's writing. Thank you, Elaine. Thank you, Elaine. We'll have to get you, Elaine, we'll get you into one of the other Big Book Study meetings. And then we'll probably come up with some other good reason to get Cliff on the phone again. Elaine, I hope you took my e-mail address. OK. We're going to be in touch on the area and kind of. You know, in ... Yeah, okay. Yeah. Go ahead. Good. OK. Take care. Yeah. Bye bye. Bye bye. Bye-bye. Have a good one, Clay. Thank you very much. My pleasure. and I'll see you all come Monday but anything in the meantime let me know thanks Cliff and thank you Will for recording for us Angel showed up in my mailbox yesterday when I couldn't figure out how I was going to get the job done so thank you Will and goodnight everybody goodnight and I love you all and we will do it next Monday and whatever I can do to help don't deny me please likewise bye bye