The Spirit of Rotation – 12 Traditions Workshop – Part 4 of 8 – Mary Jane R

All right, thank you. Just a little quick moment of silence, if you would, just to focus and remember why we're here. Thank you. Okay, now here's a couple of questions that have come so far. My group does not practice spirit of rotation. what would be the best non-emotional way to bring this down? That is so tough. You know, some guy who's been the coffee maker for 43 years. It's very, very hard. It's really very hard, but rotating leadership is the best. and it needs to come up at a business meeting, but don't press it. This is just my experience. When there's something that really you know it really does need to be changed, when you first bring it up, be as gentle as you can, but Don't Expect Anything because the first time we're confronted with something different, we react fearfully, you know, like you're standing on my oxygen hose because we don't want anybody monkeying with AA. You know, it's okay. And the one phrase that just makes the hairs on my neck stand up is, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. There's plenty that's broken, badly broken, but they don't wanna address it, you know? But just don't press it is all. but bring it up, and nobody will talk to you. And it's very threatening. If you wanted to move these chairs into a straighter line, somebody is going to say, that's not how we do it here. You're killing newcomers, for God's sake. You know why that's funny? You've heard it. But so the first time, and then the second time it comes up, people will, you know, not make faces at you. And it'll land a little better. And then the third time, people Will talk about it. But when you have the opportunity, it really is important to begin to introduce it. But really with loving concern for the guy who has been a stalwart in the group and has kept doing things, you know. Maybe you can find another job for him or something like that. I don't mean like that you're going to engineer the whole thing, but be careful about that guy also, you now. But rotation is just the healthiest way for us, is for nobody to own a job or own a group. I know you've got Bob's group or Fred's group here. Every town has, and God bless them. That guy opened up every week for how many years? But the interesting part, I think, is where in the traditions where it begins to talk about after a period of time and the old timers and there's some of them you can't get them out of those jobs with a crowbar. But what it talks about is the person himself can be induced to go in one direction or the other and that's where it describes the bleeding deacon and the elder statesman. And if you can find respected position to encourage the the guy to become an elder statesman but that's that's the best way because you don't want to lose the guy but but but really it the jobs are significant once you have a job in your group you feel ownership you feel like you're a real participant of one of the girls from the the GSO used to say it's like going to a horse race just watching the horsies is interesting but if you got two dollars on a horse you know if you've made an investment of so it's a whole different experience you know you take a real interest in the thing and when you have a job in your group you really feel like an owner and belong that you belong so we need to spread those jobs around and And a good way is making up assistants or alternates to all of the jobs and just manufacture jobs, you know. Make them up just so that you can have some jobs for people to do because they really will become more connected if they have that opportunity. I don't think there's a hard and fast way to do it. It's not easy, but it's doable and it's important. Anybody else? did you want to say something one of the things we did for a group just to make sure we were on course was we asked for an audit inventory yeah good way and gave us an inventory yes that's an excellent way because then it didn't come from one person and that's a very good idea to take a group inventory and then when you're reporting it back I think that's that's it very good idea because that's a touchy thing it's very hard to do oh no in that group pamphlet the a group there is what is called a group inventory a suggested format similar of course to our fourth step in order to proceed we need to see where we are taking a group and now it's a it's it's a tough process my own home group what we do is we just ask one question a month there's 13 questions in the pamphlet but we'll work it out the thirteenth month is where we're having a problem but but they're there if you can begin to get conversation going about is it time for our group to take a look at itself a group inventory and then you begin to make a plan at the business meeting. John? I just wanted to throw out that this group is having a group inventory in October and if any non-group members would like to just sit in as observers, I think that would be okay. If you're not a group member you really can't participate in the group's inventory but if you want gay garners coming in October to do the group inventory and we don't have a firm date on it yet because we're still waiting until we're going to church but if someone would like to come sit in and observe, that wouldbe fine. Yeah, yeah But it all emanates from the group, not from somebody from the outside. Boy, I sure wouldn't want that. You know, somebody coming in and doing a time and motion study on our group or something. We wouldn't do very well. So seventh tradition. How can we get people to understand the need for more dollar bills? Can I hold on to that until we do seven? Yeah. Okay. We should be on number three, Tradition 3, short form. The only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. And the long form of Tradition 4 is our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence, we may refuse none who wish to recover. Nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation. They are simply an AA Group. Don P's home group it wasn't his home group yeah it was his home group later in life in Colorado the name of his group was an AA group and a lot of people took issue with that and he says well it says right there any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group we called ourselves an AA group as an aside I'm full of aside please I'm not authority and I really know that but it's just sharing so please feel free to contribute and also take what I have to say with a grain of salt if it's if it is of any use to you good but I'm not the final I like the long form see now here's one of those cases where I think that the long-form has something really interesting to contribute like your membership should never depend upon money or conformity you don't you don' t have you know aren't required to do things to become a member of an AA group other than have a desire to stop drinking and and be a person who suffers from alcoholism we can't we cannot refuse anyone and time and again you know early days there's some real horror stories I have a letter in fact can I take a minute to fish that out rats I'm sorry I didn't do this It's about a lady that got picked out, and I love it. The steering committee sent her a letter. But it's priceless. Okay. Dear Mrs. Livoni, at a meeting of the Executive Committee to the Los Angeles Group of Alcoholics Anonymous held December 4th, 1941, it was decided that your attendance at group meetings was no longer desired until certain explanations and plans for the future were made to the satisfaction of this committee. This action has been taken for reasons which should be most apparent to you. It was decided that should you so desire, you may appear before members of this committee and state your attitude. This opportunity will be afforded you between now and December 15th, 1941. You may communicate with us at the above address by that date. In case you do not wish to appear, we shall consider the matter closed and that your membership is terminated. Now, you know, I'd like to write that letter to some people. But see, because of the traditions, you don't hear about a letter like that. There's nobody that can do that to anybody in AA. and isn't that meaningful and significant my membership is because I came here and I said I want to become a member I'm an alcoholic but I would just shudder to think that anybody could do that to you you know you're on the wrong side and the gate's closing yes we had a a precarious situation in my home group and we typically conscience on a certain member who is taking an interest to females in the group and there was some very harmful stuff, you know, threats of like suicide and pretty disruptive stuff and this particular woman didn't feel comfortable coming to the group because she felt threatened by this particular We ended up deciding that we cannot kick this person out due to our tradition, especially also then because we have no rules regarding the church's non-property. But I was curious where the differences between 12 Constance and church meetings, and it was really interesting that you read that letter. It was a very emotional group conscience couple group. Yeah. And it was decided that if somebody felt threatened at that group, that unfortunately, although everybody wanted to see them stay, that there were plenty of other groups that could buy into it. So that was a final decision. So I don't know if any other groups have had experiences. A lot, yeah. But it's usually handled informally. and usually some of the statesmen in the group will get together and talk to the guy or the woman who is being predatory with new people. And if it's my home group, I want it to be a safe place for anybody to be welcomed and be safe when they come in. so you got it I think that has to be addressed also but it's not like you can kick them out necessarily but you really have a responsibility to for some of the guys to get together and it truthfully I think in most instances that I can think of it's a guy who is been around for a long time but I wouldn't necessarily say sober and recovered but but picking on new young vulnerable ladies who come in it has to be addressed but but we don't just go kick the guy out with you know it's alcoholics anonymous but you can sure talk to them and should I think We've got to defend. Yeah. Was that letter written, was that action taken before the 12 traditions were established? Yes. This was in 1941 in Hollywood, California, and the traditions were uniformly accepted in 1950 at the Cleveland. Where's my historians? At the Cleveland, the first international convention. I'm new. Oh, hi, Terry. Hi, Terry, good for you. Is there something in the 12 traditions that kind of, I don't want to say dictates, but kind of outlines the quorum and etiquette of somebody? honestly not that I can think of but I'll tell you I think it's sponsorship you know that's a responsibility because I really try and keep this in mind everybody wants to do right at some level inside they want to do it and if they don't realize that they're doing something that's really disruptive then it really is a sponsorship kind of thing you do a guy a favor if you talk to him about it but still and all leave him free to wear the smutty t-shirts or whatever whatever but I was spoken to not for the t-shirt but I was thinking During the break, something reminded me of a girl who was panhandling in AA meetings. And that was her behavior right up until the day she came in. So what's the big deal to her? Here's a whole new batch of people I can hit. But very quickly, some of the old-timers went up and talked to her about it and that her behavior was going to jeopardize her sobriety. and those kind of things. You know, it's just pointing out to her that we're trying to improve our behavior and be respectful of AA because we are dependent on AA and we better treat it right. But because she was a person who didn't even have a sponsor yet, you know. But there are avenues where we can talk to somebody and help them get through a thing that they don't know any better at that stage, you know. But we don't kick them out for doing, I can't think of anything that we could kick them out for because it's too important. Essentially, you've got to bear in mind that you may be sending them out to die. And, you can say that's dramatic, but there's more to it than that. More people die of alcoholism every year in this country than withdrawal from drug addiction and diabetes and all kinds of other stuff. Alcoholism is a killer, and when you've been around for a while, you've seen the parade, and some really awful nice folks have gone out the other end. Yes? Hi, I'm Sue, and I'm an alcoholic. They ran into something like that at Kellogg's, has put out a letter for the people that are answering the telephones not to have it set up that anybody picks her up and takes this woman oh yeah this person to a meeting because um they picked her up took her to the meeting and the gal left her first sitting there to say hi I don't know if she really had a problem with alcohol. She certainly had a trouble with that. Yeah, and that's another thing, you know. The first 12-step call I ever made, the lady was not an alcoholic. She wanted to date, you see. You know. and we get over there she was all the feet up you know she and and she'd obviously been around aa for a while she had a little plastic bucket that was nice and clean and everything it was supposed to be the throw-up bucket and all but but i mean we knew we knew as soon as we got in there that she's not even an alcoholic so there's there's plenty of that but we can we can address Yeah, and you can come up with a reasonable solution to prevent it from happening again. And that's essentially what the traditions are, aren't they? They're a way that problems have been successfully dealt with in the past, and this is to share the information with all of the groups. Because if you haven't had it happen, like I said, you very well may. So just be aware, you know, that all kinds of things can happen. And carefully and lovingly, we really can take care of most anything that comes up. But they do have to be addressed too, not just ignored and hope they'll go away because that's not fair. So membership? We good? Yeah. It does say that I'm never going to talk to you about all this, and I'm not all in when you can't refuse anyone who wishes to recover. And the only requirement is a desire to stop drinking. But even those so-called rules, we can't enforce those either. We don't tell somebody, well, we don't really think you're into this. We don' t want you coming around anymore. I mean, as long as somebody says, I want to be here, or I'm an alcoholic, or even if they don't, they're welcome. So even these old rules and requirements are just kind of express our idea that they're not the membership requirements. They aren't. Yeah. Yeah. And the number of rules was ridiculous at first. The General Service Office, I think it was still the foundation at that time, but they sent a request to all the groups if they would send in their membership requirements, and when they all came in, they spread them all out I mean it was just overwhelming the number of requirements and rules and regulations that different groups had and that's when they realized that essentially nobody could really be a member if all those rules were enforced so then they said the important rule was 62 which was don't take yourself too seriously but yeah, we don't have rules that we can really enforce on anybody But there's another aspect to this one, though, too, that occurs to me sometimes. Besides the conformity, our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence, we can refuse none who wish to recover, nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation. So that's group membership. But what it triggers in me is people who are not alcoholics who want to join a group. And we had a real problem with it in Massachusetts, actually. And they were Al-Anons and they had been invited to participate in open meetings and they were used to going to open meetings, But then they wanted to join the group that put on the closed AA meeting. They wanted to become members of that. And, geez, we only have one requirement. You've got to be an alcoholic. I mean, there's only one, but we have that one, and I think it's important. Most of our literature, especially the big book, talks about our common problem. and I'm going to say something I wish this weren't taped and I hope it's not as bad now and here but we've got all kinds of andas you know an addict and an alcoholic or a cross addicted alcoholic or an alcoholic an alcohol troubled person on and on and off Um, and see, I don't know what the solution is, but I'll tell you what it does for me. When someone stands at an AA podium and identifies themselves as an addict alcoholic, I have a problem with turning it off because I sit there thinking, well, I'm not like you. You're not like me. You've separated yourself from us. I don't care if you're an alcoholic you'd be hard pressed to find a worse drug story than Dr. Bob's but for identification purposes it's just clearer at an AA meeting to identify as an alcoholic and then I'm like you, I'm just like you you're just like me now we can talk about how we got better so that's just my two cents but it comes to mind when it seems as though we do have a requirement for membership we have the one I don't know if I have a question to say, because I've grown up with that myself. I do drugs and everything, but I realize where I am, when I come to a meeting, which I'm very clear on where I'm at, I used to be pretty rebellious. I have been at meetings in which the person will stay there and talk about everything except alcohol. And I just feel that it's pretty disrespectful because there are other meanings And I find there's so many other 12-step meetings, you don't have to act as if there's no place where you can be who you are in another place. So I even had a, you know, I'm not a big, well, I don't know, but I do know that there's something about problems other than alcohol. Yes, sir. Okay? And I do think they mean problems other then alcohol. Yeah. So that's what I've had to grapple with, and how do I talk to people who come to our meetings and want to talk about everything else, but you just say this is an alcoholic, synonymous meeting. If you have problems other than alcohol, we invite you to go to the big house. Yeah, where they'll be better served, truthfully. But also, many, many addicts and people who have trouble with substance abuse and drug addiction are really alcoholics. And if we can help them to recognize that they can't drink safely, that's enough. And if their story is drugs, that is different than their identification. That is their story. And we don't ask anybody to edit their story, But for the identification purpose, for unity, we're all here for one reason. And that's all. But I don't think it's right to ask somebody to change their story for us. You can't do that. But I thought I had that pamphlet here with me. I don' t see it. But there is a pamphlet that the General Service Office has put out. The AA member and other medications, I know that they deal directly with because lots of AA members have gone off after a hospitalization or surgery where they really were given drugs that they needed to have to get better and or to remain pain-free while they were healing or something, and then they have a terrible time with that. But it's getting to be such a difficult thing that there are people who call themselves addictionologists. But you can get some help from some folks like that because they are professionals who understand that there aren't ways to safely get people off of medications that they didn't even expect were going to cause them difficulty. Yeah? not not specifically no more so five but but where it's talking about membership and that's it just triggered it in me and I see identification and membership as being related in a way, but no singleness of purpose. And you used the word respect for AA because I think that that's the ballpark that we're talking about here. Because if you insist on your right to say how many milligrams of whatever and all that stuff, then you are, I think, being disrespectful to AA in that. Because the only reason that we're asking for people to identify is out of respect for AA, so that we can all feel as though we have a common problem. And therefore, this common solution that we are going to become engaged in is something that will be beneficial to you. So just for the preservation and respect of AA. our fourth tradition our AA experience has taught us that number four with respect to its own affairs each AA group should be responsible to no other authority than its own conscience but when its plans concern the welfare of neighboring groups also those groups ought to be considered and no group regional committee, or individual should ever take any action that might greatly affect AA as a whole without conferring with the trustees of the General Service Board. On such issues, our common welfare is paramount. I think what they're saying is if you want to change the meeting time of your group from 8 to 8.30, it's up to you. the business meeting will take care of that the group has is autonomous and has the right to decide that that doesn't affect other groups in the neighborhood and it and it doesn't effect a as a whole it affects that group and you can change the time of your meeting if you want to you make all of the choices and decisions for your group by group conscience and if it's something like public relations now that could affect other groups in the neighborhood and a as a whole if you wanted to put signs on the side of buses saying there's a raffle at the AA meeting on Wednesday for plasma TV or something I don't I I don't know. But those kind of things, in most of our opinions, give a wrong impression of Alcoholics Anonymous. I don'T think that that one group has the right to speak for AA groups in the neighborhood or AA as a whole. So there are some things that we don't have a right to do, that other groups have a say in all that. And maybe some folks could come up with even better examples of that. But we just have to be mindful that our own affairs, stuff that is just limited to this AA group, we have the right to change things, but not to inflict that change by inference or any other way on other groups. And one group can't speak for AA as a whole. One individual doesn't speak for AAas a whole, but we've got to be careful to make sure that people don't get the idea that we do and cast a bad light. So anything there? I think it's straightforward. John? Can you maybe say a few words about autonomy and having a group or a home group versus, you know, sort of the one person has officer jobs in multiple groups all around town. The effects that that has on autonomy? We have a lot of it in Rhode Island. Everywhere. Yeah, maybe so. John's talking about having multiple jobs in other groups. There is another publication from the grapevine, the Home Group, Heartbeat of AA and you can go to the meetings of any group but you belong to a home group and that's where you vote and that is where you are represented by a general service representative in your district and therefore in your area and therefore in your region but you only have one You know, and I don't get what the point is. Well, I know my gripe about it is that there are people in Rhode Island who belong to five groups so they can go get five cakes and medallions. And they have a birthday month, you know. But, and, I guess that doesn't hurt anything, you're out of cake. But that doesn't kill you. But the whole thing about representation is only right, that you have a vote at your home group, and that has an effect on the conduct of business in the whole AA community. And I've got another little thing that I brought that I'm going to leave to make some copies of. The name of it was a grapevine article, and it talks about the rise and fall of a home group. And the thing is, when we start playing fast and loose with traditions or saying, oh, that's okay, oh never mind him, or whatever, they don't sound all that important. But once you open doors, you know, my first conference there was a guy who kept talking about how we ask for trouble if we allow small infractions to creep in. And he would say, the camel's nose is in the tent. And I get that. If you say, that's okay, that' s okay, it' s just his nose. Well, not next week. Next week you got some more stuff. It' s like general service conference approved literature or something. And you begin to let in some other stuff, and it's really good stuff, you know. But if it's not General Service Conference approved, then you have just opened the door to somebody else bringing some more stuff in next week. So some of those things, you just have to draw the line somewhere. General Service conference approved, if it doesn't have it written on there, doesn't mean that the General Service Congress disapproves of it. You know, like the Bible is not General Service Conference approved. We don't, nobody disapproves of it. But for our group purposes, most groups, I think, for good reason, determine that they will only sell General Service conference approved books and will only display General Service confidence approved literature. And there's a perfect example there. Every piece of literature on that rack has had the opportunity to be exposed to the general service conference. That means that a delegate from every area in the United States and Canada has hadthe opportunity to agree that that literature speaks for AA. And if you've got a problem with it, you talk to your GSR, you write it up. the GSR will talk to the district about it there could be a problem with something that needs to be addressed we have a way of doing all of that but just not bringing in other stuff and displaying it that's where the problem comes up because what you brought in might be wonderful but really once you open the door to some things you realize that oh geez that was a bad idea so when the camel's nose is in the tent next week you got a camel oh jeez I think I went pretty far a while ago some people came to our meeting and I got an email or call or something like that it was like hey there are these guys from this group last week talking to the newcomers you know we're not really that group's really you know kind of different and all they do is step one and step 12 and then they like you know have their own little thing going on kind of thing and i was wondering if you uh had ever it was kind of uh troubling to me uh to feel like there was an external threat of somebody not doing a in our group i was wonder if you ever heard something like that i don't know enough about local politics or governance if anything's ever been done about that or if that's considered not a a or have you ever encountered something like that where something had to be you know i mean i know every group is a group but if it says uh it's affecting other groups or aaa i mean would some central office take some sort of action to try to sponsor that group, or what do you do? Do you just let them keep doing their thing, or why? No. And if I understand you right, there are some people trying to scoop new members from your home group. Well, as I understand it, this group kind of operates as an outlier, and it has its own philosophy. And some people in our group got sober through that group. You know, they, you know, are not getting people sober, but they're very, it seems like it's not an attraction rather than a promotion. You know? Yeah. They're more recruiting newcomers to their group and have a little bit of a different philosophy than the other groups that actually do it. Yeah. Well, we don't have a police force. I would be in favor of it, but we don' t have one. so it's got to be handled by the group but I do know of places where they have had trouble with people who are fishing and trying to scoop members there's plenty of places, I mean there's many alcoholics out there for all of us you've got to get in the car you've gotta go drive to the treatment facilities you've Gotta go to the detoxes you've Got to go to jails You've got to go talk to people and get nice new folks and invite them to attend your home group. Don't go to some other established group and try and suck people off to inflate your membership, you know? Poor choice of words. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry. Was that a promotion? It's better than a class with TV, huh? No, but yeah. Things happen is all the deal, you know. But I think that if you see something going on that is disturbing or troublesome to you, then it's a good idea, I think, to talk to some of the old-timers in the group and, if need be, bring it up at a business meeting. Because what you've got to do is have some people go and talk to the guys who are coming in. They're welcome at the meeting, but you don't want them drumming up business. but can you have someone formally talk to them and say, you know what you're not an AA group I mean I know you can call yourself an AA groups but you're no going to be in the book we're not going to publish you in the meeting schedule if they say they're an AA Group and they don't have any other affiliation like they're not the St. Pius Group or something like that or the AA Weight Watchers group, or, you know, if they don't have any other affiliation, then essentially they are eligible to be published in the meeting directory. And now some central office managers have their own screening thing, like if it uses bad language, and there are some groups who want to name themselves something so provocative that it will be, you know, it'll stand out. Well, that's not a good idea, you know? And so, but what happens is whoever submitted the information to the central office, the manager usually will call them up and say, we really don't want this in the meeting directory. And if you will take this back to your group at the next business meeting and come up with another way to identify your group we'd be happy to publish the information but we don't put bad words in the meeting director or whatever there's ways to handle and it's not all that efficient but but you've got to go through all of that that was one of the most disturbing things to me about aa was how inefficient it is i mean the wheels grind slowly and when you first come into AA and the fog begins to lift, you know a better way to get everything done. However, it finally became a comfort to me that it's very difficult and slow to get something changed in AA because it might be your idea. And I'm not nuts about it. And it's good if you can't efficiently get that done. So it works both ways. And so we've got to put up with these difficult ways of working something out but I promise there is a way and but mostly it's at the at the group level sponsorship group business meeting and locally and and talking to people and if they don't have to pay any attention to you so then you got to reach for some bigger guns and and call on some of the old-timers to see if they can help your work work stuff out with people but but we don't have you know I really I'm not kidding I wish that there were some kind of a horseback people from GSO could ride up to these these airing groups and straighten them out and then leave town or bringing in pamphlets for studies over the weekend that are geared towards non-group literature. And my question is, you say bring it up in a group context, but as far as I know so far, we've talked about it briefly or email-wise, but I was going to wait until Tradition 5 because it's our message, it's the tradition's message that we're trying to carry. Is it wrong in a business meeting to bring it up as a topic and reiterate what our messages and what the messages that are coming in the door are? Did it kind of warn some of the newer people that have come in? Or should we just let it be at the old timers? You understand what I'm saying? Mostly the chair people have talked about these groups. Amongst themselves, not really kind of. The other group members probably know about these first. they just don't have, maybe aren't in the loop and we don't bring it up in the business meeting but I think some of the messages that are being carried are kind of questionable is it bad etiquette to discuss these things I don't think so I think it's necessary but you discuss it and go about it from the viewpoint of maybe they don't realize, maybe they dont know and start with that you know like this group only uses general service conference approved literature and that's why we can't let you put these flyers for some retreat that has nothing to do with AA on the table for information and explain to them that it's just confusing to new people or whatever but start out by trying to attribute a decent motive to them even if it isn't But really, no kidding, a lot of times people just don't know any better. And it's disrespectful to try and explain, but it does have to be addressed because we can't allow misinformation to get out. But we really do not have a mechanism for punitive action, for punishing them. We just don' t do it. and we're better off because of that overall but so you do have to address it but it's not easy and you start with explaining okay it break or or done okay we're gonna break here and we'll do what we can when we come back but we will get to five next time at any rate and that they'll probably do us in