Steps 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 – Twelve Step Workshop – Part 4 of 4 – 2002 – Bob O.

It wouldn't make any difference to me if they were married, single, or anything else. And I would harm people out two steps from who I was with. They may have had children, certainly the spouse. There could be a peripheral effect way out there. And we need to see how far out the harm went when we were doing that. Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion, or bitterness, which were my tools? That's what I did. And I did it because I didn't want people to see me. I didn'T want the woman that I was with to get a good look. And so I'd use them to keep them off balance. Always have them on their heels, okay? And if you always had them on your heels, they never could get their act together enough to get a really good look at you and see who they were messing with. And I would use anything that I could think of to pull that off, including being really mean. And then we cry because we're unsuccessful in our relationships. Where were we at fault? What should we have done instead? You know, the answer to what should we have done instead in many cases is shouldn't even gone there shouldn't have done no I had something in my head told me that was going to be fun and I didn't look at the consequences well let me give you a let me give you little clue if there's a little voice in the back of your head that says don't do that don't do that that's your intuitive thought talking to you and I can't tell you how many times I have challenged that intuitive thought and gone ahead and did it anyway and I found that at some point in the past I had made a decision based on self which later placed me in a position to be hurt okay I mean because the natural consequence of doing that is that you're going to get your butt handed to you. We got this all down on paper and looked at it. In this way we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relationship to this test. Was it selfish or not? We asked God to mold our ideals and help us live up to them. We write sexual ideals because I want to know what kind of a relationship I'm getting into. I want it to be a relationship that's going to be good for me. I want you to know where I want that to go, okay? So I write a sexual ideal, and the ideal has to be loving, considerate, caring, communicating. There's a long description that I write about what I want relationships to look like, and then I try to live up to that. And if it doesn't look like that, I don't want to do it. You know, I'm too damn old and too damn tired. I can't go through that again. You know all those silly games that people play and they play push-pull and do all this bullshit? I don'T want to DO IT. I'M DONE WITH IT. YOU KNOW, IF I CAN'T HAVE A REAL ONE, I DON'T WANT TO HAVE IT. and I can live just as easily by myself as I can with someone else. So that's that. Okay, so... It says, suppose we fall short of the chosen ideal and stumble. If you don't know what the ideal is, how are you going to know if you fell short? Okay? One of the things that's in here, and I don't know exactly where it is, is it says that if we continue to harm others, we're sure to drink. Well, I know it's in that sex inventory somewhere. And that means that if we're out there... I had a guy that I sponsored that came up to me about a week ago and said, I'm in the middle of an affair. What should I do? And I said, why are you asking me? You're already in it. and he said, well, you know, this and that and explained why I was in this affair and I said, okay and he says, well what do you think and I say, good luck and you know I wasn't mad at him and I was concerned for him and the reason why is those things don't work if you're trying to juggle too many balls in the air they're going to start falling and usually when one goes down they all go down and if you are lying to one person actually in those cases you're generally lying to everyone at some point in some point it all caves and it is truly unmanageable whereas it's like having two wives God, what an awful thought. It isn't about what I think about women. It's what I think about trying relationships, and especially for alcoholics apparently, are extremely difficult. Relationships by their nature are difficult. And the idea of juggling more than one at one time is really asking for a beating. So this guy said, what do you think I should do? And I said, pray about it and do what you think. And he said, okay. And he prayed about it and he went and told this woman that he didn't think that was a spiritual thing to do. And a week later, he's back doing it. See? I don't know, you just, you know, and I don' t always follow this but at least the best course of action is finish something up before you get into the next one. And I'll tell you what, if you're in a marriage that doesn't work or something and you go out and you have an affair because it's more fun and it's exciting and it isn't the same old stuff and all the rest of that, at least in my experience, you will destroy any possibility you ever have, of making the marriage whole. So that's an opinion, by the way. You know, maybe you can pull it off, I can't. All right, so let's say there's one other thing, and that usually is to take it to the grave stuff. These are things that we are so embarrassed by and so guilty over, and we would not tell anyone under any circumstances what we did. The book says that we had to tell someone our whole life story. That doesn't say you write a life story, that just means you tell someone everything, and most especially those things that you feel guilty or embarrassed about. I have done that. I was afraid of doing it, but I'm more afraid of drinking. When I told my sponsor, I was absolutely certain he would reject me out of hand. And he didn't. You know, how much you want to be free? How much you wanna live a spiritual life? How willing are you to walk past your ego? What are you willing to do to get sober? What do you have to do come back and join the living? You know, if you're so afraid. I have people blurt these things out to me because I tell them, Jesus, don't hang on to that stuff. I don't care what it is. This woman told me the other day, she said, I'm so afraid, I don'T know what to do anymore and I can't talk about it. And she's just dying. She always had a grimace on her face. And I said, you're hanging on to something that's killing you and tell somebody. I don' t care who you tell it to, but tell somebody And she said, well, I'll tell you. And I said, go ahead. And she says, I'm afraid I have AIDS. And I say, why don't you go get tested? Oh. And I asked her, do you want to live the rest of your life in that? And she goes, yeah. And I ask, aren't you married? And she answers, yes. And I answer, do we have a relationship with your husband? And she replies, yes, and I ask how long you've been doing that. And she said, I was afraid I got AIDS two years ago when I was messing around. Okay? And I said, no. If you had AIDS, it would have already showed up in either you or your husband. So the idea that you have AIDS at all is pretty preposterous. I'm still afraid. And I told her, I said talk to your sponsor, tell her to take you to a clinic and have you tested. and I can tell you that the likelihood that you have HIV is less than 2% because the symptoms of AIDS in that long a period of time would have shown up so she went and got tested and one day I saw her walk in she had brought a smile on her face I ever saw and I said, got the results? and she said, yeah and she said, I don't have it and I was like dragging an anchor wasn't it? And she said, yeah, it was. You know, if you're afraid of something, most of the times it's ridiculous, okay? It doesn't feel ridiculous, but most of the time it is. And if you want to do a spiritual life, you want to live a spiritual Life, you cannot be detracted by things you fear. And you've got to tell somebody about it, okay. Now I don't care what you've done or how often you've done it or who or what you've done it with. I don't care about any of that stuff. There ain't nothing you've down that a whole lot of people in this room haven't done, okay? And they were just as embarrassed about talking about it as you are. So the trick is to get out from under that and find out that you're just another person just like I am, okay. You know the truth about this is you're another drunk and I'm just another drunk. And our experience is parallel and the only difference between me and you as I've been doing it longer okay but that's the only different so we go to fist up this stuff and we need to be clear about it and we sit down with someone and we're prepared for a long conversation and we go ahead and fifth step it now, which is that we read it. And when we read it sometimes some sponsors will give you feedback. My inclination is to listen closely because these things always have threats in them. They always have... it's almost like there are... there's specific subject matter in there that keeps coursing through this whole fifth step. And I'll sit there and I'll try and count all this stuff up, and then when we get done and they have to go home and do six and seven, I'm clear about where they see the problems lying. And in that case I think that I can be helpful to people who are fifth stepping with me. For the most part in my experience when you fifth step you just read what you wrote and you can be embarrassed by it you can be belittled by it only by yourself in my experience you can feel terrible about it you can do all the rest of it but it's like a Nike ad just do it okay a lot of this program is walking on unfamiliar ground in fact all of it is for us and and the trick is okay but do it and if you haven't done part of this go out and do it what you'll find out is that that there is nothing in here that implies a threat or contains a threat to anything except our ego that's it so so we read this whole thing out and if he got some take it to the grave stuff do it in the front because otherwise you won't hear what you're saying all the way through because all you'll do is sit there in fear of what's going to happen at the end so that if you want to be effective in this take the worst stuff and talk about it first and then you can get past it and you can pay attention to what the rest of your inventory looks like anybody want to talk about that fist up got any questions you want and share some experience or do anything like that. How long? Do you just leave it up to the person to have as much or as little image really to sit down with you as they have? I've actually spent like 19 straight hours in listening to you. No. I can't remember too many. I don't know. The shortest inventory I've heard is probably an hour. The longest one is two 16-hour days. And I will never, ever do that again. And it was just massive repetition. And I thought I was being impolite by not being available to that. This isn't about abuse. You know, if you've got 32 hours of real stuff, I'll listen to it. most people don't so I encourage people to be precise not to be repetitive which isn't I encourage them not to leave anything out but if some things are just repetitive they just have different names on it so no I don't I won't sit through that again it's just people always accuse me of falling asleep listening to fifth steps it's because they're so damn boring they really are I mean people are sitting there and they're sweating bullets and they were afraid of what you're gonna think and they do all the rest of it and I'm going I've experienced what you were first saying there, is that there's a common thread. Yes. Or character defect, or follow what you call it. And people I go through that, I listen long enough to find that common thread, and then everything else is superfluous because that common threat is what you're looking for. Right. you've got to have some information going into 6 and 7, right? And the information is, what were the areas that were keeping me out of the sunlight of the Spirit? What did I see in there that is preventing me from being close to God? And that's the kind of information you want to take into 6. Because 6 is about having the willingness to be rid of these things. And seven's about asking Him to take it away. Now, that's the shortest thing in the whole book is six and seven, okay? It doesn't lack importance. It's just that it's fairly precise. So if I'm going to ask God to be rid of the things that He found objectionable, if I am going to find the willingness to be red of those things, I've got to know what they are. It's really about information. It's about being clear. It's called clarity. So I need to know what I'm asking God to remove. I'd say, well, here's what I found. And in the seventh step, I ask Him to remove anything that stands in the way of usefulness to God and my fellows. So I know I need to know what to ask about. And that's why sponsors or whoever you do your fifth step with are helpful if they can nail a bunch of this stuff when you're going through your fifth steps. Do you know about... This book describes this process of fact-finding, fact-facing. Huh? They're talking about this is like a commercial inventory where you find out about your stock and trade. It's like somebody in a grocery store finding dented cans. That's what this is about. To make it outrageously personal is a mistake. This is about fact-finding, fact-facing. It's real basic. It's about saying this doesn't work and this does. And if this doesn'T work, why am I messing with it? And then putting that in front of God and say, I've got some inventory here. I have some things on my shelves here that are unsaleable goods. They don't work. And I'd like you to remove those so I can put good stuff on. You can't fill a full cup. So somehow we have to remove those things from us that stood in the way of our usefulness. You wanted to say something? My name is Andrew. Yeah, I recently went through that. And essentially what I did was I sat through three different sessions with my sponsor. And we found a common thread with different events. And after the third session, he really didn't want to sit and listen to it anymore. And I don't blame him. Me either. God bless him. But, you know, the point is he cut me off. He said, okay, that worked out. We know what the deep end is. And I didn't ask about that. I went back and I thought about it, and I looked at the book here as illuminating every piece of character. Every dark cranny of the past. Right. So I'm thinking, I need to go through every event. So I found somebody else. Okay. And completed my fifth session. All right. I didnít know a sponsor number one had done that. But still have. Okay. But I was wondering, is that the point you were trying to make, that it's okay to do that, to cut somebody off? Once you've identified... No, I don't allow them to get there in the first place. Because once you've written it, you want somebody to hear it. And to tell people after they've written it that you don't want to hear it, that's one thing. Precise. And so it's like telling people what the rules are before you start. then everybody's clear about what everybody's doing. And so if I ask you to be precise and you write an inventory, I'll bet you write it shorter than the one you did. And that way we avoid the whole thing. Sometimes, you know what the worst thing you can do is? Assume anything. Assumption is a mistake. Well, I assumed you knew. knew what? If we're not clear, it's important for me in business to know that too. I mean, this works all the way across the spectrum. And that is, was everybody clear? And sometimes people are offended by me demanding clarity because it looks like you don't practice trust. But the real truth about it is if you're asking someone to do something that they find difficult or offensive. And then you don't do your end of the bargain at the end like listening to a fifth step. They can get pretty offended. You unscrew you, I'll go tell somebody else. Okay? So what you do is you try and get in front of that and avoid it. Camille, you wanted to say something? Yeah, one of the things that I found is that it was very helpful for me being with somebody that was fairly tough because they can see right through my my wall and I could go to somebody and I can have them here like this definitely oh poor baby or whatever they would say and I would walk away thinking I've got a fifth step or I could going to somebody that's clear and has done system and and they could help me see my blind spot and that's why I don't go to conferences anymore out we have people that come up to connect this stuff with you because what I found is that unless we make the deal at the beginning they come up with a bunch of garbage and in my sponsors I won't do it I'll cut them off after I hear about if I don't sponsor them about maybe 15 minutes of it and I can see that there so convoluted I have stopped the fifth step and I said listen you go home and you write it this is the way we do it you You know, and so they're clear because there's too many people that I've seen that they'll do a fifth step, have the illusion that they have really done it and they've never gotten to the point. Have you experienced that with people? Because they'll say, well, I put a fifth second, but they've ever gotten to this point. They just said, lost luck. Right. Sometimes they'll write it for you. Yeah. Okay. Other times, I've had people come up and go, hey, I'm going to do a fourth step. I've got a fifth step here. Will you listen to it? On those occasions where I said yes, they'd say, well, let's see, I was born in a... Whoa, wait a minute. What is this? And they go, my life story. And you go, yeah, I won't say that. I'll tell you what you can do with your life story I did that a long, long time ago but I didn't well you know it's all wonderful and I'm sure it makes good reading that's just not the point so So, books as we go home and take the book down from the shelf, which is the common joke. And we ask for the willingness to be rid of these things that stood in the way of our usefulness. And so that's what we do. God, please give me the willingness. This is another question. When AA was in the United States, how do you think the people handled sex in New York at that time? Today, everything's – we talk about – I don't think people talked about things like that then. They didn't talk about infidelity before. They just didn't talk about it. It must have been much harder for them to do a fact-finding story and share it with somebody. Don't you think? Here's what happened when A was started. At least in Akron. almost all people who came into Alcoholics Anonymous you find this in Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers you don't have to take my word for it and you can find this in A Comes of Age which is a book that do you understand why Bill Wilson wrote A Comes of Age huh you need a question laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter laughter Initially, when they were trying to get started, they were always trying to raise money. And so they sold stock in the works publishing company, which was the company that publishes the big book. And Bill Wilson, who was a promoter, you need to understand that this guy was a promoter in the worst sense of the word. And, oh, God has strange bedfellows. So he went out and he sold all his stock in the Works Publishing Company and then when AA was around 20 years and it had its feet underneath it, he went on to sell it. He went out to get the stock back because he didn't want someone else to get control of the publishing company that owned the big book. and now most of the stock was sold to people who were the initial members of Alcoholics Anonymous and Bill Wilson was out there being a big deal and he was out their telling all kinds of stories about how AA started and he said and he says I guess the kind way to put it is embellishing the truth and so he went to all these old timers and said, give me that stock back so we don't have to worry about who controls the big book. And they said, we will give you the stock back, Bill, if you will write a book about the truth of how AA started and we want to review it before it's published. So that's how AA Comes of Age was written, okay? Why am I telling you that? Okay, so when people in Akron, and I suspect in New York to some real degree also, when AA was started, they put almost everybody in the hospital first. Do you know that? Almost everyone who came into AA went into a hospital bed. And what they did was they'd get them in there and then they'd give a couple members of AA and they would go in there and they'd talk to them and theyíd share their experiences about their alcoholism to help whoever this person was in this hospital bed to see about their alkalism. And then theyíd ask them if they were, and this is in A Comes of Age and then Dr. Bob and the Good Old Timers, that's how that started. And then, they would ask them if they believed in God. And they would encourage them to do that and they would tell stories about how they came to believe and they'd share all this experience with them. And once the person said they were willing to believe, they'd pile them out of bed on their knees and ask them to make a third-step decision. And as soon as they got back into bed, they were handing them a pencil and a piece of paper and telling them to write inventory. See, because the way AA started does not look like some of AA today. When AA started, they knew that the centerpiece for this whole thing, in fact, the total substance of this program is about following a bunch of spiritual exercises so we can get closer to God. And there wasn't any of this stuff about fellowship and we'll all hang out together and have dances and parties and eat sweet rolls and do all this stuff. it was about do these exercises so you don't have to drink anymore. And it was done in a sense of desperation and it was one right on top of another and there were no breaks in it. So we have been enormously fortunate to retain at least some semblance of that kind of activity because we have had so many different thumbprints on this program and people trying to change the nature of it into, we all belong here. You know, we don't care if they're overeaters or overthinkers. We don't matter. We don' t care. This works for everybody. Just invite them in. We're a good operation. You do that and the next generation there won't be an Alcoholics Anonymous. This is about drinking. This isn't about anything else. Now, when people come in here and say they're an addict and an alcoholic, please don't be offended. They don't have a very good idea about what this is about. This is not about alcohol and anything else is not relevant. So we have a lot of people who come into my home group and say their alcoholics and drug addicts and we say we don't really give a rat's ass if you're an attic. If you're over here to work on your alcoholism, we'll help you. But coming in here, it's like me saying, well, my name's Bob Olson and I'm an alcoholic and an oxygen dependent. So what the hell does that have to do with? You know, this is about alcohol. That's what it's about. And if we try and make it about anything else, we will disappear just like our predecessors did. So that's what its about. and protecting that is of prime importance to us in Alcoholics Anonymous. And as those of us who have been around for a while fade away or die or whatever we're going to do, please remember that what's held this thing together is that its focus is on alcoholism, period. Okay. Oh, now about sex. So what did they do? I'm sorry. Finally. Yeah. So what did they do? They wrote them, they jumped back in bed and they started writing inventory. These questions that are in here about was it selfish or not or jealousy, suspicion or bitterness were in their inventory. And they had to answer the same questions that we do. And if there was infidelity going on, although that was a much much touchier subject back then, they still had to discuss it. And, you know, Bill Wilson wrote about his attempted infidelity. He suffered from assault with a dead weapon. Huh? That's what he said, anyway. So I shouldn't be saying this publicly. In the book, he wrote that even though he was apparently interested in some of these things, that he was incapable of participating. So the answer to the question is, yes they did. I'm sure it was touchier, more difficult to discuss back then because of the issues around infidelity, but they still had to. So it may have been more embarrassing, but you just can't leave that kind of stuff out. So it's my opinion, or at least from reading about all this history of AA and everything, that those people did what we do today. Perhaps more reluctantly, but they did it. Anybody else got any questions about that? Yeah. John Boschel, an alcoholic. Hi, Don. Bob, when you receive a fifth step, how much of your inventory do you share? Depends on who it is. That's an interesting thing. Now, there's a group in Riverside, Illinois that does a lot of that. It's Paul Martin's group in Riverside. And they share inventories. Inventories go both ways when they fifth step it. One does one and another one does its inventory back. And I'm sure there's lots of good reasons for that. Sometimes if I see that people think that they're unique in their experiences, I'll bring my inventory with me and I'll share it with them. Essentially, I do that so they see that there is nothing unique. So it's kind of a question of who I do it with. That's not a regular practice but sometimes I have my intuition tells me to do that and so I'll grab an old inventory and go in there and do it. Now, the last inventory I did, I did actually in one evening, one of the guys I sponsored sat down and fifth-stepped with me and I fifth-stepped with him that same evening. So it kind of depends on the circumstances. You know, there's a person up there, the same guy that asked me these questions I don't like, that says, you know Bob, every time you really believe in something that you feel that this is a set in concrete, well-founded belief, you're going to get it pounded up your backside. And I'm sitting there, you don't know what people will say things like that to me and I file them. and then wait to see what happens. And for the most part, he's right. So I don't hang on to anything too tightly. Anything about procedures, anything about beliefs. I had a very strong belief that I would never sponsor women. And I sponsored several in a row. And I don' t know what God was up to in that. I know what I wasn' t up to, which is good. and so I can't hold on to any of this stuff too tightly because I get it thrown in my face and it's just not worth it, okay? Anybody else? Greg. Thank you. God, I'm now ready that you have all me good and bad and grant me strength as I go out from here to do Thy bidding. What is the rest of it? No, that's part of the third step prayer. Yeah, take everything that stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. So you say that and you mean it. Now what's God take away? What He wants to take away. See, you may think that part of you should be taken away and God may find that useful. And I can't explain that to you. But I'm pretty confrontive most of the time and God hasn't seen fit to remove that. Although I'm willing to not be confrontive, I just don't. Maybe that's not what I think it is. Maybe candor. Yeah, I treasure candor in other people because I treasure single agendas in other people. It's really confusing to me to get together with somebody who's got six agendas. They never know what the hell one they're working on. Before I forget it, I want to talk a little bit about dependence. The book says that we place our dependence squarely upon God. Now, what's that got to do with? We were just, during the break, we were talking about sponsorship. And some people sponsor from their egos. and that means that you will talk to them all the time tell them precisely what you're doing they will make your decisions for you and they will essentially direct your life if you've got a sponsor like that get rid of them they're sponsoring out of their ego if the first thing your sponsor tells you is not, place your dependence squarely upon God. I'm just another drunk. They're doing you a disservice. The thing to remember here is that sponsors are not infallible. None of us are infallable. So if I place my dependence on some other drunk, I am a fool. If I ask them, you know what sponsors are their guides, and that means they're going to walk with you. And if you ask them questions about their experience, they will answer you, and you can benefit from their experience. But my sponsor refuses to answer questions to me about how I should live. And when I call him up and say, tell me what to do, he'll say, pray about it and do what you think. It took me two years to figure that out, because we'd have these long-winded conversations, and the last comment in those conversations was, why don't you pray about it and do what you think? And after two years of that, I finally figured out that we could have abbreviated that whole conversation and gone directly to that. Remember that our dependence is squarely upon God. And I'm not trying to take off on sponsors here. I just want you to know in no uncertain term that sponsors are guides and that they can be extremely helpful and if their intent is good especially. But if you've got one that's operating out of their ego, which is that they want to start telling you how to run your whole life, you may find that unfulfilling. And the one thing that you will not do in those circumstances is you will not learn to depend on God. And you will walk around in AA asking everybody what's the right thing to do when you ought to be out there testing the water and testing your intuitive thought to find out what you ought of be doing. Thank you. So, the book says that we made a list of all persons who we had harmed became willing to make amends to them all We did it when we took inventory. If you write your inventory out of somebody's idiotic guide, you know, well-meaning people write little things you can put checks in. It's like filling out an order for... You know, it's like... It's like ordering a magazine, basically. I don't get it. If I don' t see it with some degree of clarity, what' s the point? So my opinion here, again, which is not worth anything, is that if it isn' t in the big book, I don''t want to do it. Now, that may be very close-minded in your view, but it saved my life. As soon as I start doing something that somebody else designed, I start running into trouble. I think this program's perfect. I think it's God-inspired and I think anybody that tries to put a thumbprint on here is doing us all a disservice. I've been able to stay sober for a long time on the basis of believing that and I'm inclined to think that if you take the same attitude, which is I'm just going to do what it says, that you will get sober, you will stay sober, and you will help other people become sober. So we made this list. It's not particularly difficult. The reason why you have a sponsor in this deal is so they can give you perspective and clarity. So we go ahead and we make this list of all these people we've harmed, and then the next thing that's important is that we write down the harm. Now I thought I knew that. Well, I just harmed him and him and her and her. And my sponsor, when I went to review it with him, because he made me review the ninth step with him or the eighth step with them, said, where's the harm? and I said, well, I must have harmed them. I mean, I was around them. And he's going, oh, you must be pretty powerful. You know, I didn't harm all the people I was round and I don't harm them by being next to them and sometimes I harm them in ways that I may not understand and I have to get some clarity and there are a lot of situations that are garbaged up with my own emotions and so I cannot get clarity or perspective about what the harm was. And that's why I sit down with my sponsor and say, here's what went on, here's What I Think, what do you think? And then we will come to a conclusion about who I've harmed, what the arm was, and how to take care of it. Now, the whole business, first of all, and let's just talk about writing the list. Most of our amends, a list will occur in our inventory. which is precisely why if you write it by someone else's design, you won't have that list. So you short yourself that way. So considering that we've done this inventory based on what the book says and we have this list of people, we will find most of the harm that we have created in that. Now we'll probably have to add some people to it. So we do that. And then we get clear on what The Harm is because my sponsor told me he didn't want me going out and bothering people about stuff that I made up. You know the part in the book about we can't differentiate the true from the false? It has to do with where we were and what we did and all of a sudden sometimes we tell ourselves the same lie so often we start believing it. Okay? And sometimes we think something happened and it didn't. And sometimes we hope something didn't happen and it did. So we go through there and we find harm in each one of those things and then we become willing to go make amends to them if we don't harm them further by making the amends. How can you do that? How can you make harm by going to make amens? Huh? Classic example is messing with somebody else's spouse. Well, I'm sorry I was in bed with your wife. And now that you know, I feel much better. Well, come on. You know, we just try and do the best we can. Some of our amends will appear to be insurmountable. Sometimes we have done things which will create more harm by trying to amend. You know, amend means to change, don't you? So we try and find a way to balance the books. This is about bringing everything back to even. This isn't about overbalancing the books. So when the book talks about not bowing or scraping before anyone, they're right. We're not over there to be subservient. Do you understand? We don't go in there and go, beat me, beat me, I've been terrible. That isn't what this is about. The book describes our attitudes when we go into amends, and the way it describes it is calm, frank, and open. That means I'm not excited or agitated. If I can help it, sometimes that's pretty tough in amends. That I'm clear, that I talk about the truth, I talk About What Really Happened, which is about being frank and about being open. One of the first things I do in every man is say, I'm an alcoholic and this is part of the recovery process for me. And the book suggests that we do that. And I do what the book suggest. So we need to be calm, frank, and open and then we go out and repair the damage. Now sometimes if we owe people money, you pay them back. If you harm them in some other manner, you try and make some sort of reparation for what you've done. You do whatever's necessary to balance the books. sometimes people will ask you to do things that overbalance the books. If they're really not very unreasonable, I will generally do them because I'm the one that created the harm and if they want a little more and it's not too offensive, I'll just go ahead and do it. If it way overbalances the books, I tell them that's unreasonable And they went, well, you came here. And I went, yes, but that's unreasonable. Okay? So we go to these people in a helpful and forgiving spirit. And we are calm, frank, and open. And we do what we need to do. I know an awful lot of people that drank because they didn't finish their amends. And they did everything else that was asked of them. now I'll give you someone else's experience but then this is a friend came to me and said in person I sponsor he said I can't make this man and I said which one and he said well I faked an accident when I was working on a construction company and they spent 40,000 bucks and he said, I screwed up my knee playing tag football. And then I faked an accident on the job. And I said, he said, ìI canít do it.î And I said why not? He said because theyíll take me to jail. And I say well should we take you to jail or should we go to the cemetery? he said okay, and he was terrified. This is a big, strong, this is a guy that you wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley before he got sober. So he went back there and he went to this company and he said, I've harmed you. I faked an accident. You guys paid $40,000 to cover the medical expenses. I regret having done that, and I want to make it right. And the first thing out of this, when he called up and told these people he wanted to talk to them with a company that he had defrauded, they said, meet us here at such-and-such a time. And he was absolutely certain that the PDU was going to be there. He walked in, and it was the treasurer of the company and the president of the country. And when he said that he wanted to make it right, the treasurer looked at him and he said, Are you in a 12-step program? And he said yes. And the treASurer said, Okay, we're going to talk about what we're going to do and you can come back tomorrow and we'll tell you. And this guy called me up and said, I've got to go back tomorrow. And I know they're going to arrest me and I know I'm going to wind up in the state penitentiary. And I said, you don't know anything. You know what you're afraid of. But the truth is that the hardest thing about trusting God is trusting God. And this is where you learn. You can't learn to trust God if you never learn to trust Him. If you don't take that chance, if you don' t put yourself in a position of risk and allow God to pull you out of bad circumstances you will never ever learn to trust Him So he went back the next day and he was expecting the squad cars to be in front of the office and there wasn' t one and he walked into this office and the treasurer was standing in there and he said we've decided what to do. And this guy said, okay. The treasurer said, we would like you to contribute $400 to a charity of our choice and we want to see the receipt. Thank you very much. What the hell would have happened to this guy if he hadn't done that? See, it would have eaten his guts away until he lost his sobriety. But there's a thing in the fear inventory that talks about this. Men of faith have courage. Now, how much courage? All right? That's the question. If you're going to give me courage, give me so much that I can jump out this window and be unafraid, okay? How much courage do you really get? Enough to get one foot in front of the other. That's it. There are some times when we have so little courage