Queens Big Book Study – Part 5 – Gary B. – 2008

We did lose a few to the nap, though. I can see that. They did start lunch late. That's true. We didn't get time. Did anybody have a comment or question on fourth step or previous up to this point? Yeah, we can do that. Yeah. We are now. Yeah, that fits in with some other conversations we're having. Page. 69. Oh, no. It took me seriously. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. I think I'll start a little reading here on page 69. I'm going to start it right in the middle of the page. There's a paragraph that says we reviewed our own conduct over the years past. Where had we been selfish, dishonest, or inconsiderate? Whom had we hurt? Did we unjustifiably arouse jealousy, suspicion, bitterness? Where were we at fault? And what should we have done instead? Now, I got each one of those numbered in my line. There's nine questions there with that. And what I do when I'm writing the sex inventory, those are the questions I ask myself about each person that shows up in the list. I ask them those nine questions. And any more, the list. Does not show that somebody I was with normally other than Julie. And if it does, it wasn't because sex per se was involved. It has to do with my mind being involved. And my mind will go there very easily. And there have been incidents where there was sexual, what's the word I want? Tension. Sexual tension with somebody. And I'm not saying that I was with somebody else. Didn't act on it. Didn't do anything on it. But I looked at that to see if I was behaving in such a manner to create it, to make it worse. So anyway, those nine questions are critical, I think, for me with that. And then it says, in this way, we tried to shape a sane and sound ideal for our future sex life. We subjected each relation to this tension. And I think that's the key. And I think that's the key. So we did a test. Was it selfish or not? Was I involved? Of course it was. Damn right it was selfish. We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them. We remembered always that our sex powers were God given and therefore good. Neither to be used lightly or selfishly. Nor to be despised. And loathed. And so what we do, and the people I work with, we will write out this ideal. Write down what we think it should be. And in my case, my sexual ideal was to keep all my sexual desires, thoughts, and all that up front and with my wife. And I'm not going to lie. Obviously if I have an ideal, I will never have sex with any woman under our own judgment. And I did. I already have sex with her, and the other two wives. And, um, it was so far before it even happened I didn't really have sex yet. I unique all my sexual preparations in sex for my wife. I began to throw inside it, turned on my friends. I got Qué RGB desde la cerveza. I got Qué EQボ plains. I started myself. I got Qué IR relative to the Pastor. I was a Sunday friend to some older folks in New York that looked a bit like me. Con estrella del sol. I got lots of óró topics. Writing became likes and off persona phones. I gotó law firm I got a memo saying a lot. And I started to study the idea of cé не é si é que je Marchzuser. And And the things I have, she's not here, so I'm not going to shave any of it. But the things I have shared with her is that we're 69 and she's, what, 39, right? And the tables have been turned on me because all our life I wanted to have sex. Anytime. With her, any place. I didn't care if she's eight months, three and a half weeks pregnant. I just always desired having her doing that. And then later on in life and all that, I'm not as excited about it as she is. That's dirty pool. That's God's joke. Yeah. Ain't no joke. Hey, God. That's a joke. That ain't no joke. And so there's new issues today from what there were before. My head hasn't changed. Okay? My head still thinks like I was 18 years old and in trouble. So that's just my ideal is to be open and honest and upfront about it. And I'm not going to be honest about it with her. And we have a lot more laughs about it today than we did when I was keeping everything a secret other than just my desire to have sex. So that's all mine has been. I've never had any particular, hadn't had any issues with anything other than other women. And from some of the people I've listened to, I'm fortunate to have had that happen. One of the things we talk about. If when we're in a inventory situation in the workshops is to bring it out in the open that there were people in the room who had a homosexual relationship or event when they were drinking. And we're extremely ashamed about it. Everyone talk about it. And we just simply explained it to them because that's not because you were gay. It was because you were drunk. And it's kind of had the sexual desires that some of us have. Anything can happen when we're drunk with that. And so we try to break some ice with that. We're not trying to sell anybody on it, but we're just we're trying to do that. So we throw that. But all these things fit into our ideals as we go on with that. Did any of you know Linda? Yeah. Yeah. She probably taught us more about that than anybody. I've ever worked with. And made it one. And we still miss her badly in Indianapolis. She came to a sudden end last summer. Last I think it was. Tom, honey. Summer before last. Mike had just left your house. Yeah. And there are so many people that were touched by her that she helped with this. And she did that. So. We've learned more and more about updating your ideal. When it comes along, because things will change for you. With that. So some people I've seen people who have been sober for a while and all that deciding that maybe for a day for a while they needed to turn to abstinence. To get their head straightened out. And do that. And it seemed to be a great deal of help. I know there's people sitting there sitting in here thinking when I just said you got to be kidding. I mean. Went on in your head. But. But. Don't be afraid to set out on an ideal and try to live up to it. It's like the book says. It doesn't necessarily mean you'll drink. If you don't live up to it. But it'll sure start you off on a more wholesome way to go. Okay. Okay. Um. Um. Uh. In. In a workshop that I'm involved in. Uh. In Denver. Um. We've just gone through the sexual ideal. And it was funny because everybody showed up with. Okay. I want this in a man. Or. It's. It's. Men and women. But. You know. I want this in the person. I want that in the person. I want that. And you know. It says right here. We must be willing to grow towards it. We're talking about the ideal inside of us. And so. Um. After we went. Through. You know. What everybody had brought in for their homework. Um. You know. We. We kind of all. Agreed that we would all look at. How do we live up. To that ideal. You know. We're asking that of somebody else. How are we doing in ourselves. And that really helped. Um. I. I guess. Another thing I wanted to bring up. Is that. Um. Meetings. There is. A lot. Of intimacy. In meetings. And. It used to be safe in Al-Anon. Because they were. It was all women. But. Now. You know. There are a lot of. A lot of men. And I know that in AA. There's men and women. There's a lot of intimacy in a meeting. Because we're really sharing. What's going on inside of us. And. And. There's a lot of. Possibilities. For. As Gary was saying. You know. Our thoughts to go a little rampant. And. And. I can speak for myself. That. That. One of my symptoms. When I'm. Not dealing with stuff. Is that. My eyes will wander. And my thoughts will wander. And. And I had one particular. Time period. When. I. Probably looking back on it. I was probably angry with Mickey. And. You know. Not consciously. But unconsciously. I. I let. My. My. My. My. Mind wander. I never did anything about it. But. I let my mind wander. And. And. I never thought of myself. As an obsessive person. But. Those thoughts became very obsessive. And. And. And I remember. Talking to. My sponsor. And then talking to other people. When she couldn't respond. And. They're all going. Ah. Fantasy. That's just fine. Enjoy it. And. You know. And. And. And. The truth is. Is that. Anything. That separates me. From Mickey. Is going to. Come between us. You know. And. And. And. I've talked about the fact that. You know. We really talk. Very openly. About. Pretty much everything. That's going on. But. The minute that starts happening. There's. A wall. Between us. And. I'll let him speak for himself. But. It is. A dangerous. Thing for me. To. Not. Pay attention. To that particular. Red light. You know. I start. Becoming. You know. A little. Enamored. With. Twelve stepping. Somebody that. Is attractive. And young. And. I need to really. Kind of. Ask myself. What's going on. You know. Do I need to do. Some inventory on Mickey. Because that's probably. Where I'm. Having to disconnect. You know. I'm. I'm. I'm going to. Disconnect myself. From him. And. And. Emotionally. And see. I. For a long time. I said. Well. Emotionally. Is fine. You know. There's nothing wrong. If I don't. Do anything. I don't. Act on it. You know. And. In. In that realm. You know. There are a lot of people. Who say. Well. You know. Cyber sex. Is not sex. And it is. You know. I believe. And. So is. Fantasy. Fantasy. Is. Is sex. Inside of me. Because. What I'm doing. Is I'm connecting. With that other person. And I'm not. Not connecting. Or. Dealing with the problems. Within my own relationship. As a single person. I don't know. You know. I'm. I'm not. I don't. Know. How that would. Kind of. Come up. Except that it is selfish. As Gary was saying. So. I think it's. It's just something. That. That. We can't avoid. Looking at. At some point. Because. Of the nature. Of. Meetings. You know. This. Is. Deeply. Personal. What we share. And. You know. A lot of times. People will. Assume. That they really know. You very deeply. As they. Start talking to you. Because they've heard. What you. Have. What your life is like. And they feel. Very intimately. Connected with you. So. That's. What I have to say. Okay. So what are we talking about? Okay. Sex. Sex. Okay. Hello. I'm sort of like. Post. Brownie. At the. Moment. But anyway. Before I forget. You have to forgive me. Because my memory. Span. It doesn't last long. And if I. I need to bring something up. I'll do it now. And so this is like. Not about sex. But just for a moment. I want you to know. That we. Are involved. In a conference. In Colorado. Called the fellowship. Of the spirit conference. And it is the last. Full weekend. In July. And I believe. Corey. That's the 24th. So it's a Thursday. Friday. Saturday. Sunday. So it starts on. July. 24th. And it's in Copper Mountain. Colorado. And. If you want to find us. You can go to. W. W. W. F. O. T. S. That's fellowship. Of the spirit. F. O. T. S. Dot. Com. And I'll give you all the information. About what's going on. And what's happening. And we have. Ruth has come from. Katona. And been with us. And. And. And Chuck's been there. He's in Vermont now. And. So. We have. I beg your pardon. And. Tom and Jenny. Have come out. And Lorraine. And. Do I have to name like. Okay. Anyway. So. We have. A lot of people. Who come and be with us. And you are certainly invited. To come and be with us. And we've actually. Increased the capacity. Of that conference. In order to. Accommodate people. Coming to be with us. It used to like. Sell out in 12 days. And. And it's usually. You can start to. Have reservations. To. This conference. In February. Like early February. So. That business. Being out of the way. I think. I'm just so. Pardon me. I'm grateful for the question. And so. It's like. If somebody was to say. Excuse me. This Pepsi's fighting back. If somebody was to say. Like. Okay. Okay. To ask any of us. What did you get out of the weekend? I'll tell you what. I just got out of the weekend. Because you asked the question. Don't you? Is that. Every time. The sex. Ideal. Has come up. That I've ever heard it discussed. It was about. What we want from that other person. Here's what I want. In this other person. And Gary and Marie. Have both just shared. What their ideal. Behavior is about. And it has nothing to do with. Picking that person. And modeling that person. And saying. You know. Because here's. Let me see. I'll do my sexual ideal. The way that I disagree with it. Personally. I'd like to pick. A person who is. Emotionally unavailable. Who was raised in an atheist home. Who's tougher than I am. And tougher than I will ever be. And we're going to have. You know. But you know. I mean. I was gifted with my wife. I was blessed with my wife. You understand. So I'm not in the business of saying. Here's my shopping list. Not that I think you God need one. But the ideal is. And I want to. To read. I just want to go back. To the page in the book. It says. After we've answered the questions. As Gary read them. It's. And what he read. In this way. We tried. To shape. A sane and sound ideal. For our future. Sex life. Okay. We subjected. Each relation. To this test. Was it selfish. Or not. We asked God. To mold our ideals. And to help us live up to them. We remembered always. That our sex powers. As we. Talked earlier. Were God given. And therefore good. Neither to be used lightly. Or selfishly. Nor to be despised. And loathed. And here is again. Another thing. For human beings. Whatever our ideal. Turns out to be. We must be willing. To grow toward it. Okay. We must be willing. To make. And it goes on. To make amends. If we've caused harm. So. Here's where I came from. With sex. There was no connection. For me. Between sex. And love. Zero. So much so. That I always had. Two girlfriends. I had. The naughty girl. That we had sex. And I had. The good girl. That I worshipped. And put her up. On such a pedestal. And. But with the other girl. You know. Let's rock and roll. But of course. She didn't get the. Love and respect. She got gratitude. Gee. I'm awfully. Glad that you're. You know. Willing to participate. With me. And. Destroying my soul. But. But other than that. It was. Sorry. Did that come out? And. Anyway. Very difficult. For me. To get the idea. To understand. That sex. Can be an expression. Of love. That sex. Can be. An intimate thing. Between two people. Who love each other. And. That may sound. Crazy to you. But that's. Absolutely. Where I've come from. In my life. And Marie has taught me. And she would say things. That. That that's what sex could be. And it took me. And. And God. An entire. Rearranging. An entire. Psychic. Change. Inside of me. To be able to have. Sexuality. And love. Connected. And they are connected. Today. I didn't cuddle. I didn't hold hands. It was slam. Bam. Thank you ma'am. It was. It was miserable. It was. It was. Not supportive. Of any of. The kind of intimacy. That we can have. With each other. As human beings. And so. So I just offer that. You know. And my ideal. Is to have. Sex. And love. With my wife. Now. When. Sex. Is like. A drug. Then it's like. What do you want. I'd like. I'd like. I'd like. To have. A drink. With my rich twins. What? Well. If we're going to have a drink. Let's have a drink. You know what I mean? And it's interesting. I mean. I know that's shocking. But it's like. Welcome to my nightmare. I mean. There it is. And then I would talk to people. That I sponsor. And they would say. Well. That they were with a prostitute. And it's okay. They said. Because it was honest. And I paid her. And I paid her. And I said. Do you understand. That that's somebody's sister. That's somebody's mother. That's somebody's daughter. Is that woman better off. For having met you. Do you know what I mean? I'm. Forgive me. I. Am I imposing my morality. No. But I am sharing a view. I remember one time. I went to get some auto parts. For our car. And I missed the auto parts place. And so I was turning back. You know. I stopped. I stopped my car. To turn back. To go to the left. And get to the auto parts place. And I was on. Well. Colfax Avenue. Which is. Is. Our place for. That. You know. A lot of the hookers work the place. And so. The tenderloin. The tenderloin. That's right. And. And so I'm looking to my left. And I. I hear my door open and close. And I looked over. And there was this little frail. She looked like a little. I don't know. Like a little bird. Sitting in my car. And she broke my heart. And I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. I. She just broke my heart. She was very thin. And you know. And she's not healthy. And she's sitting in my car. And she's selling herself. So. Forgive me. The commercial's over. But. You understand what I'm saying. It says our. Our. Sex powers are God given. They're not to be as lightly. Or selfishly. And just because. You say. Yes. Now I get to operate. Like an opportunivore. And it's not good enough. Because. It's the whole. person so these are part of my sex ideals that this is the whole person this has got to be blessed by god is another portion of this and one of the ways that i know that it's okay for marie and i to be sexual with each other is that we've taken vows before god to be with each other like not just when there's sex you know what i'm saying so that's like and i've had and it's interesting in working with younger people in alcoholics anonymous because what they call that is old school and i say listen morality never changed it never changed it never changed if it's supportive of the human being then that's a good thing and if it's not i don't think it's a good thing so those um but that's a sex ideal that i really had to grow to dunya and it's like it was like the dark side of the moon i mean i could see marie's lips moving when she would tell me that this was what was possible but it didn't mean anything to me big time so i just want to share something that happened up in uh indianola we went up there and did a workshop and and washington state and and um we we began talking about sex and um and one of the girls was very brave and she she piped up and we were talking about just kind of sex you know and and and she piped up and she said you know i just want to say when the girl says to you at a bar or wherever a meeting whatever um i'm really okay with casual sex okay i want no commitment i'm just you know wanting to relax wanting to have a good time she said don't believe it she's she's single she's still in the running and all but she said don't believe it she said uh that is just not true and then uh... after a little bit more discussion of that one of the guys uh... piped up and he said when a guy says you know i i'm okay with casual sex and i just want to have a good time he said don't believe it so you know i learned something because you know we've been married a long time and out of the running and all that kind of stuff but you know here were two singles uh... very attractive single saying don't believe that it's about sex that we're in a relationship with don't believe that it's about sex that we're in a relationship with It's that simple. And, you know, so I think it's an emotionally packed subject. And there's another aspect to it. It's difficult for Maria and I to discuss sex. It's like a loaded issue in our own marriage, in our own home. Because how do you sit down with somebody and say, geez, you know, like, are you here? Are you interested? Are we, you know, I mean, it's a difficult thing to talk about. So I think one of the real growths, and I didn't know, I wouldn't have identified it as an ideal, would be to sit down with Maria and talk with her about frequency of sex or, you know, whatever, aspects of sexuality. And it's like you think after almost 38 years married, this is something we could just whatever, you know. Not easy. Because you know why? Because it's so tender. And it's so personal. It's really down into who we are. And if it's not down into who we are, this is just my thought, then what have I put as a barrier to that personal tenderness? Then what I can do is I can just offer you the front of me and not the soul of me. And then I don't think we're actually being together, if that makes any sense. Dunja, I don't know. I don't know if that addressed what you were talking about or not. Is there anybody else who has a – oh, Gary, did you want to say something? I just want to say she's sorry she asked. Yeah, she's like, oh, my God, will you please quit saying my name on this thing? Okay, great. All right. Aside from Dunja, is there anyone – before we are done with Dunja – no, I'm just kidding. Is there anybody else who would like to ask a question or make a comment? Yes, Donna. Yeah, I just wanted to add something. I use the word selfish a lot, but in terms of the steps I do, can you give me an example of a way to be more selfish? You know, I have sponsors that ask me to do it, and I'll say that's not – I'm not selfish. I don't understand how I'm being selfish. But maybe you can give me some examples. And you're talking about in sexuality? In general, exactly. But sexually. Okay. So her question was, what does selfish mean? Okay, what does selfish mean if we're talking about in relationship and sexuality in general, whatever? And, you know, I really like that question because there's so many things that we use that we think are self-evident, that there's no need to discuss them. But it's like in a conversation. Who do I talk to? Who do I talk about? Me or you? Who am I interested in? Me or you? Do you know what I'm saying? And so there's, for me, a selfish line of demarcation. And incidentally, I mean, I don't have like the greatest social skills. I mean, it's like the chit-chat really drives me crazy in about two seconds. But I have discovered a really terrific way to have a conversation with someone is to ask them about themselves. And what's interesting is they'll come out of the conversation thinking I'm a great guy and they just had a great talk and they've talked about themselves. But anyway. And in sexuality, I think it's the same way. And in romance, it's the same way. Do I care about how you're doing, what kind of experience you're having? Are you feeling like you are safe? Are you feeling like you're cared for? It turns out to be one of the most wonderful. Sexual things that a man can do for a woman is hold her. Just hold her. There's like, you know, God forbid, there's no other exchange going on here. It's just to hold her. So that to me would be an unselfish act. And that's something that I hate to admit does not come to me naturally. But it's okay even if it's artificial. Even if I have to think about that and try to get into that process. Because maybe one of these days that will become a real part of me. But the fact that I can have concern for it. So that would be my take on it. I'm a rule follower. So, you know, I probably should have been a lawyer. Because, you know, I'll go up to that point. Okay, what's expected of me, I will give that much. And, you know, beyond that, you know, that's not been asked of me. So I'm not going to give it. In the sense of, you know, emotional, physical, or anything else. And what I've had to learn in the last few years is the way that I say it is generosity of spirit. Which means that, you know, I'm not just saying, okay, you ask me to do the dishes. Or you ask me to whatever. Well, where is the generosity of spirit? And that comes from God. Because I can do the, you ask me to do something, I can do it. But can I pull out of myself, with God's help, something that's more, you know. And so the generosity of spirit really is a term that brings up the feeling of, you know, not being selfish. It's kind of like the opposite of selfish. And I don't know how to define selfish necessarily. Because sometimes I have to take care of myself first. But. But in a relationship, am I having generosity of spirit? And if I'm not, then there's a likelihood that I'm being selfish. I sometimes find that the simplest little statements help me more with anything else. So I use a little definition for selfishness. And I use a little definition. I use a little definition for self-centeredness. And selfish says, it's mine and you can't have it. And self-centeredness says, it's yours and somehow I'm going to get it. And so that seems to work real well for me in whatever we're talking about with that. I, I'm going to get my satisfaction. You're not going to get it. Uh. Uh. It can be pretty, pretty simple that way. And I find that works more and more. But where it will get conflicting is things like Mickey and Mary were just talking about. Uh. I'll go for the longest time and then something happens. And I'll ask myself, when was the last time I was just being caring or affectionate? Period. Period. No, no, no, no other thing going on, not necessarily wanting anything or anything else. And that will help me to set all that stuff aside just to go up and try to be, can be no more than a back rub or just sitting hold on, we hold hands a lot. Is that that silly commercial where there's a very elderly couple walking along holding hands. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. hippies are bopping by and decide to hold hands. The first pictures were Julie and I because we hold hands a lot, and that's what we do. But sometimes that's controlling. I have long legs, and Julie doesn't, and sometimes I can move the pace along a little bit if I just grab her hand. So that's pretty self-centeredness, isn't it? But those have been very helpful to me. Selfishness is mine, and you can't have it. Self-centeredness is yours, and I want it. I'm going to fix it and get it. Sometimes you have to work at that for a second when you're looking at the situation. But it pretty well falls into line every time. Anything else? Moving right along. Gosh, those are good questions. I finished that inventory at 20 years, and I called Paul. My sponsor's name is Paul, and today he is 86 years old and 61 years sober and was acquainted with Bill and Lois. Just a fun little aside. He at one time was a professional wrestler early on in his sobriety. But not many people don't know is Lois Wilson was a fan of the professional wrestler. Oh, yeah. And I could never – he wrestled at one of the venues in Chicago that was televised back then. And he doesn't know if she saw him wrestling or not. But he would be with Bill and Lois, and she would ask him if the wrestling matches were faked. And his answer to what he told me was, man, it was all I could do not to lie to her. And then later on, the story got changed. I'm sure I lied to her. I'm sure I lied to her. The only bout I've ever seen that was rehearsed. So I called him and told him I was done with the inventory I'd written. It took me about a week to write it. And I had seen some things in it that hadn't shown up in previous inventories. And for the most part, they were not things that I intentionally overlooked. They had just escaped notice for a long while. And that wasn't the first time that had happened to me. And I called Paul, and I told him that I had finished it. He gave me instructions to be at the place out on the west side called La Grange. And gave me the name of a motel to be at and told me to be there by 4 o'clock Friday. And got there early enough to get the room and go across the street to the convenience store and get a cup of coffee. I came back and there's a knock on my door. And I opened the door and there was a stone stranger standing there. He tells me his name is Dennis O'Brien and he's 29 years sober. And he said, Paul asked me to come down here to swap fifth steps with you. And he walks in the room carrying a three-ring binder. And he sits down in the chair. Now, you know most motel rooms only have one chair. And that monkey got it. And he says, I'll go first so you know what to do. Now, it went just about that rapidly. There really wasn't, we might have shook hands, but there wasn't any pleasantries going on with this guy. And, yeah, Dennis O'Brien, you can tell, you know the brogue right now. And he sits down and he opens up his three-ring binder and he begins to read inventory to me. And he had been around a long time too. He was 29 years. That meant he'd written a lot of inventory. That meant he got good at it. Okay? In other words, he can write inventory and not write the drama. Again, no, it doesn't take long. It just takes experience to do that. But he had several things in the inventory that were similar to mine. He had a few things in it that were exactly like mine and a couple of things that I hadn't done at that point. And when he's done, it's my turn and I sit down and I shared my inventory with him. Then we spent maybe another 10 minutes comparing notes because I had found some things that he had missed and he had found some things that I had missed. And I have not seen Dennis O'Brien since. He left. And I had time to go downstairs and get another cup of coffee and I came back and there's a knock on the door. Okay. Guy says, my name's Chuck. I'm 22 years sober and I'm here to swap footsteps with you. He said that he'd go first so I'd know what to do. And it was effectively the exact same thing. And by noon the Sunday, I'd done that nine times with nine different men, ranging from Paul at that point was probably 39. Yeah. 40 years sober. I don't remember the exact year I did it but, you know. And he would have been the most sober one or the longest sobriety one and the other guy, the young one, it was three years. And they wouldn't even let me pull rank on him. And I mean, it's the same routine. And we met a few, I met a few of them for lunch the following Sunday. And we sat down and I'm very relieved because it's over. Well, you'd think it was over. And they said, Gary, get your pad and pencil out. We'll help you with your amends list. And they had wonderful memories. Now, what happened with all those fifth steps in that is there are eight of those guys left in Chicago. And some of them I have seen. I've seen them. I've seen them. I've seen them. I've seen them. I have seen since then. And when we sit down and talk, we really don't have to catch up. We know a great deal about one another. And some time's gone by, the hair's got grayer and we're packing a few more pounds or whatever it is. With that, but we'll sit and talk and laugh like we've been sitting and been together for years. My spot, I'm going to shoot my mouth off here a little longer. My sponsor got his initial knowledge of how to do the 12 steps with Tom Powers. And he's the guy that's given the credit for having edited the 12 and 12. And who at that point in time was probably Bill's best friend, if Bill had anybody that was real close. We never hear that, do we? With that. But, and Tom was who Paul learned. At that point, the most he had learned. And he'd done the steps as much as he could at that point. And Paul moved back to Chicago and was interviewing the head of the psychiatry department at the University of Illinois, a man named Hobart Maurer, who was a psychiatrist and he also experienced a lot of depression in his life. And it turned out that he was a psychiatrist. He was a psychiatrist. He was a psychiatrist. And it turned out that Hobart was interviewing Paul as much as Paul was being, doing the interviewing. And he heard about the steps from Paul and what they were doing and how they had helped him as an alcoholic and all that. And so Hobart Maurer effectively wrote an inventory about his depressions. And following effectively the same format we do as far as I know. But he started sharing that stuff that he had found. With everybody who would sit and listen. And what he had learned is the more he talked about his secrets, the weller he got. Okay? The better he got. And the depressions became less and less and less. And so he found another form of Prozac is what I want to say. So anyway, from that is where Paul went on and started encouraging multiple fifth steps. So to this day, I'm not going to talk about the fifth step. I'm going to talk about the fifth step. But I'm going to tell you the fifth step. And the fifth step is that you go to Paul and you say, you go to Paul with an inventory and sit down here and you share your inventory with him. He will return the favor and share his inventory with you. And you swap the fifth steps. And that's what you do. So that was my experience because that time around it was so much more thorough than any of the previous ones. And there have been a lot of them with that. And so what's going on here is I'm telling you. The more we share our secrets. The healthier we become. Like my friend Ernie says, the weller we get. And I found that's true. They're like having a big inflatable dragon in your closet. And every time you share a little bit of it, it seems to lose some of its wind and some of its power. And it seems to go down. And I found that to be very, very true. In all of my life. And that's why I share. I willingly share things that are very uncomfortable to share. And they just lose so much steam when you do that. So I have no idea how many in fact sit down fifth steps I've made. I do a lot of tent stepping, but I always write it down. And I capture whoever I'm with as long as they know what I'm doing. And I share the fifth steps. And sometimes I do it quickly. And sometimes I let it fester for a while so I can just kind of really get slimy. But I'm a lot better off if I do it quickly. And if I've missed something in it, I can always go do it again. And not be quite as slippery. So that's some of my experience on fifth steps. Thanks, Gary. I remember my first fifth step, I was petrified. I was shaking. I was inconsolable. And I don't think that fourth step had anything in it at all. I mean, it was like, oh, yeah, my sister slapped me. And there was nothing of significance in it. But I had devoted my life to putting on the facade, to putting on the mask, and being somebody that I thought you wanted me to be. And that was the first step. That was the first step. That's how I survived. And so to pull the mask off at all, to have some, you know, to be somewhat who I was with other people was just horrifying, horrifying. And I was sitting here listening to you, and I absolutely agree with you, because the stuff that I've shared today is really fairly neutral, you know? I mean, I don't know. I'm not a perfectionist. I don't, you know, I mean, I see the people that I sponsor, you know, go through, oh, my God, I just shared this with you. Are you going to hate me? And it's so not about me, you know? It's so about the fact that they're letting the air out of the dragon. And, you know, so when I share with you, you know, I'm not sure that I'm, you know, I'm not proud of the way that I have lived in the past. I'm not proud of some of the things I've done in the past week. But I, but it doesn't have the same sting, you know? It doesn't make a judgment on me. It just means that I'm, I kind of fit in here, you know, with all of you nutcases, you know? And honestly, you know, that's a real issue for a lot of Al-Anons, you know? Honestly, it really is. Because it's like, you know, I'm not a perfectionist. It's like, you know, you're the big guys. You're cool. You know, you're the ones who really did it up, you know? And we're like wimpy and, you know, we never had any action. We never had any drama to our lives. And, you know, everybody I've ever sponsored in Al-Anon who wasn't a double winner go, oh, you know, maybe, maybe I'm an alcoholic, you know? Kind of like I can go into the big guys. I can go into the big leagues. And, you know, we all want to kind of earn some sort of badge and, you know, anyway. So sharing these things, you know, it's not like they're the worst things in the world. But they were, they were, caused me such fear that, you know, I thought I would just die before I shared them. And, of course, you know, I've shared that, you know, sharing with Mickey was, you know, being vulnerable to Mickey was just impossible in the beginning. And now you all know as, you know, a lot of what he knows. So it's an amazing process. I mean, you know, it's scary, but you only benefit from it. You only benefit. But, you know, I guess we all have to be scared in the beginning every first time, second time, fourth time, 20th time. And I think that's what we're all about. And I think that's what we're all about. How are we doing? It's like after lunch. Is anybody else nodding out while we're saying? I mean, it's like, God, the room seems warm. Is it okay if we like just take a ten-minute break and stretch our legs? Now, can we kind of watch our watches as we get back in here in a comp? Thank you very much.