Drinking Was the Secret That Kept the Other Secrets — The Safe Within the Safe – Julie R.

Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic.
Sober since January 1st, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm truly grateful you're here.
This is the podcast where AA members from around the world
share timeless and extraordinary stories of experience, strength, and hope.
Stories that remind us of what's possible when we stay close to the program and to each other.
Like many I've had the privilege to interview,
today's guest, Julie R., took her first drink at 14
and felt immediate relief from fear, sadness, and anxiety at home.
Her early binge drinking didn't stand out much in high school or college,
but it quietly laid the groundwork for deeper struggles with alcohol and cocaine.
Though she began to suspect that alcohol was part of the problem,
quitting wasn't yet on her radar.
In a twist, it was her husband.
himself.
a very heavy drinker, who took her to treatment just six months into their unhappy marriage.
He insisted that she get well, though he had no plans to do the same.
At rehab, Julie was introduced to Alcoholics Anonymous and the 12 Steps,
meetings, sponsorship, the big book, and a growing openness to a higher power.
With sincerity and willingness, she embraced the work and built a strong foundation in sobriety.
But as the years passed and life improved,
her connection to the program slowly faded,
nearing six years sober she drifted and eventually drank again.
Julie's return to sobriety is honest, humbling, and deeply hopeful,
a clear reminder that this program works when we work it.
I think you will find her story both inspiring and encouraging.
And if you enjoy it, please leave a rating and review on the podcast app with which you are listening.
My name is Julie, I'm an alcoholic.
Hi, Julie.
And that's what everybody in the room says.
So now everybody knows who you are, and you at least know that they're friendly if they're saying hi to you.
I so appreciate your willingness to do this today.
Right now we are meeting in a room that we just got out of a meeting in, and I do a lot of interviews that way.
The topic today, do you recall the overall broad nature of that topic?
What I heard from him share was it was about being of service.
That's what I heard.
Being of service isn't the first thing people think about when they get into AA, is it?
No.
When you first got into AA, what was your initial thought of having to go to your first AA meeting?
Well, I went to treatment, and I didn't go willingly.
And really the first thought that I had was, why did I get dropped off here?
Why am I being blamed?
That was the first thought.
Who were you being blamed by?
My husband at the time.
Uh-huh, okay.
Did he have a reason for blame?
It was an unhappy marriage from the beginning.
It was.
Six months after I got married, I was driven to treatment by him.
In reflection, it's the biggest gift that came out,
well, my daughter and getting sober from that marriage.
But yeah, I felt like if I admit that I'm an alcoholic,
it means that he's right.
That he's right.
That I was wrong, that all of this was my fault, yeah.
The type of relationship that you had before and after you got married,
did it support your drinking or was it in opposition to it?
I don't think he liked me getting sober.
I remember him saying I was no fun anymore.
And I recall, you know, that I think he had some fear,
like who was I going to become?
Especially when...
When the non-alcoholic or the spouse of the alcoholic
can manipulate and control by virtue of the other person's drunkenness
or their indecisions and that sort of thing,
if they can control it, that's not a bad way to run a marriage.
Right.
So how long were you married before the problem started?
Yeah, so we got married August of 2011.
Right.
And I was dropped off at treatment January 2020.
2012.
Nearly six months to the day.
Six months to the day.
Oh my gosh.
I know.
Yeah.
What a way to start out, right?
What sort of approach did they use to get you to go?
Oh, literally scooped me up and took me.
Were you resistant or were you ready to go?
Honestly, I was so unhappy and so broken.
The feeling of just being so broken.
I was very relieved to get to stay in my own room at this treatment center.
And I felt very safe there.
That's great.
So you were in a 30-day program?
Yep.
And I stayed for 34.
34 days.
I said, do I have to leave?
Yeah.
A lot of those rehabs are pretty nice too, aren't they?
You know, it's funny.
At the time, I wasn't aware of it not being nice, but I have since met a woman in the rooms.
Who went to the same treatment center that I did the same year.
And she talked about the rubber pillows.
I don't remember that.
Rubber pillows.
So this certainly wasn't like a luxury sort of place.
But it was AA focused.
Yeah.
And they had a really strong clinical team.
That was critical for me accepting that I was an alcoholic and being willing.
Because we were in, you know, we had a schedule.
We were in meetings throughout the day.
When you say it was an AA.
AA centered program.
Do they prepare you for leaving?
It's easy to mandate that people go to an AA meeting while they're in treatment.
But once they get out, it's easy to think that, you know, I went through 30 days of treatment.
I must be fine.
I guess I can go back to drink.
Right.
So what I remember is there was a lot of encouragement to get a temporary sponsor.
Okay.
And something that treatment center did was there was an open meeting once a week where
people from the outside.
Could come in.
I see.
And that's where I met my, my very original sponsor working with her when I was there.
Yeah.
And it was after she knew I was getting out and she invited me to my first meeting out
of treatment.
And that's where I did my first 90 meetings in 90 days.
And I did them with her.
So what I remember is they had what was called a relapse prevention group.
Yeah.
I don't remember when I started.
That, but I know that it, you know, I remember going before I, I was discharged, but the
most, I think impactful thing was that they encouraged us to get temporary sponsors and
there was one day a week in the evening.
It was an evening meeting before we, I think, went to bed and people from the outside could
come in and I met a woman there and I asked her to be my sponsor.
People said, look for someone who has what you need.
Who has what you want.
And she was beautiful and impeccably dressed and kind.
And I asked her and, and she is who I worked with the rest of my time there and started
the steps with.
So by the time that I got out, she suggested a meeting for me to go to, and she met me
there.
And we did that for my first 90 meetings in 90 days after treatment.
So you actually were a pretty quick study then.
You know, it's funny because I was relieved of the obsession to drink.
Very early on.
Yeah.
I was relieved of that before I left the treatment facility.
Did you have to go through detox in the beginning?
No, they put me on the detox floor because that's, I think just standard, but I wasn't
there more than three days and it was because they didn't have a bed open on the ground
floor.
Right.
But, but they were very responsible about that.
Everybody had to go through that.
They wanted to make sure we were safe.
You mentioned people came in.
Did they ever take you to outside meetings at all?
No.
Okay.
No.
What did you notice the biggest difference is between a meeting within a treatment center
and one on the outside?
Oh gosh.
I mean, that's so hard for me to speak to because this was back in 2012, the very beginning.
My service work has not included going back into a treatment center to do meetings.
But what I can say is, you know, in a treatment center, it's a lot of work.
It's a lot of work.
Yeah.
But in a treatment center, it's predominantly newcomers.
Oh yeah.
So it's people who don't know anything about the program, may or may not be accepting that
they're an alcoholic.
Whereas, you know, the meetings that I attend today, there's really strong recovery in the
rooms.
So you hear a lot about the solution and you hear a lot about how lives have been transformed.
And the people who are there, who are new, they want to be there or they're getting a
paper signed.
But either way, it's just a different feeling.
Especially coming from where most alcoholics come from, the setting that most rehab centers
provides is often in stark contrast to what the people were living with and how they were
living while they were on the outside.
So you went to the treatment center, you spent 34 days there.
And did you go into the IOP program immediately after?
I did.
So, and again, that's a hazy memory.
But I do remember going back and I think it was once a week and I had a small group.
And I remember what made a big impression on me was one of the women, she was an older
woman.
She came in one Saturday smelling really strongly of alcohol.
And I remember I was so worried for her.
So incredibly worried.
And you know, if I really think about it, that might be the very first time that I've
had, the very first memory I have being sober of really thinking of someone else.
That's interesting.
I was really worried for her.
Although if you had been in as many AA meetings as you said you were in the facility, I'm
sure they talked about service from time to time.
But to be able to see it in the flesh and think to yourself, there's got to be a way
to help this woman.
And if you were sober and coming in from the outside, maybe you'd be the very person to
do that.
Maybe.
That's what a realization is really cool to have.
Well, you know, you said they talk about service and I'm sure they did, but I don't
remember hearing anything about that when I was sitting in that treatment center.
Yeah.
I get that.
Now, what was your sobriety date?
So my first sobriety date was January 23rd, 2012.
And then after six years I relapsed.
And so my sobriety date today is August 26th, 2018.
So I, yeah, I was sober for six years and then I drank for a handful of months.
There are a lot of people out there who wonder what was the person doing that caused the
relapse?
What was life throwing at them that they would want to drink after so many years?
And, you know, six years is a long time to stay sober too.
The six years, tell me about how those years progressed and if there was this, if there
was an arc in your involvement and participation that then went down to the point in which
you went out.
Well.
When I got back from that relapse and worked the steps, I reflected a lot about that, what
happened.
And a couple of things, you know, really strike me.
The first is really reflecting on how I worked the steps in those first six years.
And the fourth step, you know, writing that personal inventory, being, you know, fearless
and searching.
I wasn't.
There was a part of me that really helped.
I really held back.
And I can remember very distinctly choosing to not put important things from my young
years before I started drinking on that fourth step.
I sort of thought, well, that's not relevant because I wasn't drinking then.
But that's not what the book says.
And so that laid the groundwork, you know, having those unresolved things that hadn't
been flushed out, hadn't been shared with my friends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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Yeah.
So fast forward, you know, I was still married.
It was a very painful marriage.
Six months from wedding day to rehab hospital.
And then you got out of there and continued the marriage.
I continued the marriage and I had a, I had a child.
We had a daughter together.
I started a business.
I became.
very settled in Houston. I had moved to Houston from New York, so I wasn't from here, but I had
created a community, but, um, you know, the, the marriage was very lonely, um, very painful.
There were, I mean, a lot of infidelity on his side and it was, it was, um, it was painful and I,
and I felt a new level of powerlessness. So it's like, you know, in treatment, it was all about
keeping sober, the powerlessness over the drinking, but living sober, there are a lot of
things I'm powerless over. And that was one of them. So that was going on and I was very secret
about it. I didn't tell people I had a lot of shame. So that was happening. And then as my
business was getting busy, I really felt fear.
Like, how am I going to leave this unhappy marriage if I don't have a way to take care of
myself? So those two things that I wanted to control, which obviously it's impossible,
you know, really took me away from meetings, took me away from my fellowship and, you know,
Hurricane Harvey had happened 2018. Um, and it was just the perfect, perfect recipe.
So the, the treatment center did what they could do, obviously for you to hopefully stay sober.
But when it comes to the other reasons that trigger the relapse, I mean, did they try and
help you, uh, navigate your, your choices and so forth when it came to the marriage?
With six months into a marriage and very unhappy and sitting in a rehab center, it would seem like,
you know, there might be questions that got asked in a knowledgeable and empathetic way,
but was that not talked about?
Chose not to talk about it to them or?
I do remember talking about it. Um, you know, there were, uh, small groups and there was a,
a treatment counselor that I was assigned to, and I was able to really confide in her.
And I remember there's a family day. Um, and I don't remember him being willing to participate
in that. And, um, what I remember really taking away,
and I don't know if this was a message I received in treatment or just later, uh, going to meetings
and working with a sponsor and really listening to the women in the rooms. Cause I went to, uh,
an exclusively, uh, when only meetings in those first six years, it was focus on your
recovery and your sobriety and your problems will take care of themselves. Um, and,
and I remember in the treatment center and shortly after, you know, it was suggested,
don't make any big decisions in the first year. And, and if I'm really honest, you know, I stayed
because I was afraid that was really what it came down to the fear that was behind all that.
Was it more about how you would take care of yourself or, or what the repercussions might
be from him? Uh, I was really afraid of how he would react and,
and the signs of the repercussions from him. Absolutely. And that, that in turn would
definitely affect my ability to survive. You know,
Meanwhile, you had a baby. I did. Yeah. A child that have to think about,
so you stayed in that marriage for six years. No, I stayed until I filed for divorce in 2023.
So I'm now happily unmarried Unmarried?
married for a total of how many years? Gosh, I think when all was said and done, about 13.
13 years. Boy, that's a long time to be unhappy.
Well, you know, one of the gifts of sobriety, though, is that I had a lot of joy, even in that
unhappiness, because I was able to depersonalize his behavior. And I found a lot of healing.
My relapse was a gift. It really was. Because it allowed me to come back into the program with very
clear eyes, and understand what I could control, what I couldn't, you know, what I needed to change
about myself, and what I wasn't responsible for. And so, you know, I focused on my sobriety,
I focused on being a mom. Really, I focused on being a source of love the best that I could.
And doing that, ultimately gave me the courage to make a really hard
choice. So were you and he living separate lives within the marriage? Effectively, because he
traveled a lot. And there were a lot of reasons that, you know, there were a lot of women outside
the marriage. So there was a lot of travel and time away from the family. Yeah, it gave me,
you know, a lot of freedom to enjoy my children and, and have that time. But it was it's painful.
You know, it was really painful. He said children. So yes, I have an older stepson.
So he was in the picture. He was I raised him from from a young age.
And he's the son of your ex? Yeah. Okay. So that's why I like to do it this way. So many stories are
have interconnectedness in them. Yeah, it's so nice to be able to just find out, okay, now let
me make sure I got this right. And so yeah, well, and it's unique, because
you
I married a widower. And so his son was very young, and very much knew me as his mother. And
so yes, it was very, very attached to him. And it was also a really big reason that I,
I didn't want to get a divorce much earlier, because I had promised him that I would never
leave him. He had already lost someone, right. But in reflection, I recognize that, you know,
alcoholism is a family disease.
And that disease of alcoholism, you know, it affects the children. So for me, as a sober woman,
staying in a marriage where there was very much active addiction going on,
it was something I couldn't control. It was it was, you know,
it's a perfect reason to go to Al-Anon, wasn't it?
Yes. Yeah, which I did not start doing until a few years ago.
Yeah, well, yeah, usually, I think sometimes it takes people longer to get into Al-Anon than it
does AA because,
in AA, you know, your alcoholism is on display and has some very outward appearances. And,
you know, when you're the spouse of or the loved one of somebody like that, when you're a true
Al-Anon, you know, there are all sorts of things you have to do that kind of disrupt that
connection. And as you mentioned it being a family issue, I wondered, what is your own personal
experience from your own family of origin when it comes to alcoholism?
Yeah, so I did grow up in an alcoholic home. But the funny thing was, I didn't know it. I didn't know
until I was 26 that my dad was an alcoholic. And the way that I found out was my mother came to my
sister and to me and said, I'm leaving your dad because he's an alcoholic.
And I was stunned. Now, growing up, I always knew that there was something wrong. It was a really,
it was like walking on eggshells. It was a very unhappy home. I felt, again, that sense of
loneliness of just, I didn't feel safe. You know, I felt alone. The world was big and scary. And I
didn't have anybody guiding me.
No.
Are you the oldest?
No, I'm the middle.
You're in the middle of three?
Yes.
Okay, so you had siblings. How much older or younger are they?
My sister is two years older. My brother is six years younger.
Okay, so at least you and your sister might have had some sisterly camaraderie as growing up.
Did you both experience the same sorts of things? Or was it different behavior to different children?
No, as I recall,
we both experienced the same things. I think in the way we felt, I remember talking about that. But she's a very different temperament than me. She was the sort to get small and quiet, and I was the sort to push back. Right? And so I do think that I've received more of the brunt, because I was called the rebel. You know, I questioned things.
What did the brunt look like?
Lots of spanking.
Lots of spanking. Lots of being grounded. Lots of just different forms of abuse, really.
Abuse and corporal punishment.
Right.
So where you were physically hurt.
Right.
That's tough.
Yeah, it's painful to talk about that. It's not something I share.
Yeah, and it's something that I think until I started sharing it, I was having very little relief from.
And it's hard. It was always hard to face it, because I never really talked about it that much until I got older. And then being able to go into AA and talk and have so many people come up to me afterwards and say, man, you know, I went through the same thing, but I've never been able to talk about it, because my home of origin, my family of origin was a very dismal upbringing.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And there was a lot of fights between my mom and dad. And there was a lot of abuse meted out on the children. And I have an older brother and older sister. They got the brunt of it. But then I would get what was left over. And depending on how my dad was feeling. And he wasn't an alcoholic, which, you know, there were some times I wished that he was, because at least at some point, he would have passed out from his behavior. But it was a very, very difficult home to grow up in.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
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How did you feel about your role in the family as it relates to your parents getting along and not getting along or alcohol use in the house?
Well, I had no idea that there was alcohol use in the house.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I grew up in a relationship.
Really?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
religious home. We were at church every Sunday, morning and evening service. We, you know, I was
required to go on Wednesdays and, you know, the church was no drinking, no taking God's name in
vain, no sex before marriage. It was just like so conservative. Yes. So, but so growing up,
what I remember feeling was the arguing, the dysfunction, the being in trouble all the time,
that it really was my fault, that it was because of something that I was or wasn't doing or that I
wasn't doing it well enough or, you know, and I remember having, having feelings and wanting to
share them, you know, with my mom or with my dad. And it was what I understand it was today was it
exciting that didn't really happen. That didn't really happen that way. Or, well, we're not going
to talk about that, you know, because my mom and dad had a very unified front. They were never
going to listen to this happened and it scared me or this happened, you know, if we were talking
about, if I was talking about my mother to my father or vice versa. So I felt unprotected.
Yeah. Those kinds of allegiances are rough when you think you can tell your mom about something
your dad did and then she talks to him.
First, and then you get beat up over it. That united front, how did it present itself to the
world? Was there a certain image that y'all were trying to keep up or?
Well, I just remember, you know, church was a big part of their life and we always had to be
dressed in a certain way, very put together. Appearances were a big deal. I remember being
told, you know, that, that my behavior was a reflection on the family.
Um, you know, that was very important. And, you know, I remember just not really being able to
have people come over. You know, I think my mom, I know was just exhausted. I think really,
you know, dealing with her own feelings, being married to an alcoholic, keeping the secret,
not only from the outside world, but from her own children, trying to hold it all together.
So, you know, there was a facade that was,
that was guarded. Right. And I felt very isolated as a result. You know, I felt very
isolated from, from the outside, not being able to have friends in, not really being able to go
to other friends' houses, that kind of thing. Was there ever a time during your growing up
from let's say your earliest memories until some point while you were growing up as a child or
adolescent that you noticed what was going on and maybe even to the extent that you question it or,
or you were, you were confused by it, but you at least noticed it. When did that start?
I remember sitting, um, in church. I was probably, I don't know, gee, 13 maybe. And thinking
everything that they're saying about love and this and that is such a farce. I remember just
thinking that it was so hypocritical because that's not what I experienced at home.
And I,
I think that was the first like idea that I had of like, no, things are not right. Um,
there's no love here and it's not adding up.
So when children don't get love or don't perceive they're getting loved, I know that's how it was
for me. I don't think my dad ever told me he loved me when I was a kid. And my mother,
it was always conditional. And I know she loved us, but she just had such an emotional,
um, roadblock to being able to express it. And one of the ways she could have expressed it the
best was to protect us from my father. And she never did that. So your, your folks would
treat you a certain way. And then you had to find ways to reconcile it within yourself. Like I must
be bad. Or, I mean, did you ever seek out any relief from that kind of behavior?
Well, I remember, um, funny enough, I, the first time I had,
had alcohol was actually with my dad's parents. You know, they were two people who I did feel love
from. I felt accepted. I felt, um, like I could talk with them and not lie about who I was and
what I believed and what I didn't believe. And I was accepted. And did they know what was going on
at home? I don't know if they did. They lived across the country, you know, but, uh,
but they did know that, you know, that their son was very conservative and had really sort of
rejected their way of living and that, you know, they knew that there were differences, right,
between them and that their relationship wasn't that great. And so when I had wine with them at
dinner, I just remember feeling the sense of just relief. Like the edges got blurred. There were no
more jagged corners, you know?
Um, and because, because I felt so much love from them and I felt so at ease and safe in their home
and whatnot, I really, I've recognized today that I associated all of those things with alcohol.
Sounds to me like the stage was set in, in a way with the grandparents that booze would make
just everything even brighter and, you know, more enjoyable. Was that your experience with them?
Yeah. I mean, they certainly didn't,
they didn't advocate or push for it or anything. It was definitely the experience,
the inward experience that I had that evening. It was the night before I was going home and
they were going to be flying me home. It was like those, those sharp edges that I was always so
afraid of cutting myself on all of a sudden got smoothed over. And, uh, I wasn't afraid anymore.
I didn't feel, I didn't feel all the things that were scary. And how did that newfound feeling
present itself?
In your life after that experience with your grandparents, you came home from seeing them and
you had this, this, let's say revelatory feeling about, uh, wow, wine or whatever made me feel
this way. When did you, when did you start to seek it out or, uh, you know, find others who
were doing it so that you could get that feeling back? Were you into changing that feeling?
No, I wasn't. Um, I wasn't, you know, I, when I,
when I lived at home before I went to college, I was very concerned about what my parents thought,
you know, I was scared of them. So I worked really hard. I stayed really focused,
but I do remember that I had a boyfriend and, uh, I remember he put some kind of whiskey in,
in soda, like in a, in Coke or something. And I remember instantly, oh, I recognize that feeling.
That's the feeling I had, you know, two years ago when I was with my grandparents
and, uh, they really disliked him.
But, um, you know, and then later when I got to college, I mean, you know, they weren't there.
Yeah. So all bets were off.
All bets were off, but I was never a daily drinker until I moved to Texas after I got married. So,
you know, I, I went,
I went through high school, I went through college, you know, all of that. And, and I wasn't
drinking the way, you know, there was a tipping point when I moved here and got married
before that it was more, oh, there's a dinner party or there's a whatever. I worked for a
software company for a time. And I mean, all, I mean, they stocked the office with booze and
whatnot. You know, they say those binge drinkers, the binges just get closer and closer and closer.
And, um, is that your story? Yeah, I think it is. It took the progression of the disease from
January 23rd to when I relapsed six years later, because during that relapse, I really experienced
of, oh, wow, I don't want to be drinking. And yet I'm drinking. And that was the first time
I had ever experienced that drinking when I didn't want to. We'll be right back. My friends,
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So there's not much of a history, is there, between when you were with your grandparents
and had taken your first drink. I was 14. Going to high school, going to college,
just being a normal everyday person who doesn't,
indulge, who uses alcohol, let's say, infrequently. I was what you would have called a social drinker.
Yeah. But on some of those social occasions, I never really knew, well, how much was it going
to be or how little. But I was aware of, you know, being around people who, who I knew and felt okay
getting drunk around. And then the settings where I knew it wasn't okay. So, yeah, I didn't fall
hard, you know, early on, at least.
Yeah. Early on.
So being a social drinker and being, if anything, a binge drinker, what connection did you sense or feel between what was going on within yourself and the way you were feeling about yourself or the world in general and alcohol itself?
Where did that relationship really start?
That's a hard question.
I mean, I remember believing really at a somatic level that the world was just a dangerous, scary, lonely place and that I had to find my way through without any guidance and that whatever happened was on me.
And so I don't know if taking the drink made me feel that I knew how to make it and that I would be OK.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or if it just numbed the fear of that belief, because I really, really believed it.
So you were pretty fearful.
That was all the time.
Oh, yeah.
You think that went back to that primal fear you had when you were a kid?
Absolutely.
Yeah.
That's what it was like for me, too.
Absolutely.
You know, which is unfortunate because that period of time doesn't usually last all that long, but it lasts the rest of your life when you're trying to figure it out.
It's those neural pathways.
Right.
And there's no figuring it.
There's no figuring it out either.
No.
That's the great illusion is that, you know, I can read I'm OK, You're OK and all the other self-help books in the world, but they don't tell me what I need to know about myself.
So you got through school.
You didn't start drinking until you came to Texas.
I wouldn't say that.
I didn't become aware.
I don't know.
It's hard to draw the line.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was living in New York.
I had lost a really significant relationship because of my job.
I had to quit drinking and when I got married and moved, you know, to Texas, I didn't have the demands on my time that I had had before I was married and I think that's really when, you know, I crossed over a line because there was nothing that I had to hold it together for, per se.
I don't know if that makes any sense.
It was like I didn't have a job that I had to go to.
I had left all of that in New York.
And so that with just the instant sort of feeling of what have I done leaving New York and marrying this man who is doing what he's doing, you know, I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to feel that without completely just breaking apart.
And alcohol became a really good way to numb that.
To numb it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Most of the major decisions I made that affected the rest of my life were made under the influence.
And when I was smoking pot and when I was high and when I was drunk, you know, the world seemed to be my oyster but, you know, in a very surrealistic way.
And I never put into place sober what I thought would be a cinch to do when I was drunk.
What was your feeling about that when you were looking at your life at that point?
Was there a connection there?
Absolutely.
I mean, what you just said, making the most important decisions, you know, under the influence.
In reflection, I know that I was an alcoholic well before the first drink because the disease I know centers in my mind.
Right.
And so, you know, the decisions and the reactions that I had to the world and my place in it, you know, they were very much shaped by that.
Right.
Right.
Right.
Right.
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Right.
There's no way to detangle it.
Right.
Yeah.
Looking back on what you know now with the sobriety you have, you never would have made
that kind of decision with him.
No, I had no discernment.
Right.
And I had no sense of self.
You know, I really believed, you know, the shame that we talk about.
Yeah.
I was riddled with it.
Yeah.
And I didn't even know it.
Yeah.
don't think I had ever really paid attention to that word until I got sober. I'm still trying to
figure out the chronology here. Now, we're talking about the second period after the slip that you
were feeling this way. I'm talking about leading up to when I first got sober. And, you know,
there was definitely shame around what was going on in my marriage because I blamed myself
because I was sober for the majority of that marriage. Yeah, I got sober six months after
we were married. I mean, he was the one that took me to treatment and I was the one that
chose to get and stay sober. I see. So he didn't he didn't want you drinking. I think, you know,
my drinking in those first six months was very unhinged. And, you know, he had a small child
and it was not a good situation. So it made sense to go to something that would help you stop. And
so you went.
And you stopped. But you stayed in the relationship that may have been the
cause of all the stuff that you originally went to rehab over. So I always like to
make sure that I understand the connection between the realization that you're drinking
and using drugs, whatever, in an abusive way as a way to cope with a situation.
And anytime it's getting
you drunk or stoned, it's because you've turned to something that really doesn't have any form to
it or any real truth to it to solve the problem. And so the solutions that you get out of that are
they're worth about zero. Right. I very much reenacted my childhood
by marrying who I did. So that was a complete reenactment of like the home that I grew up in.
It seems to me that when you grow up in the kind of home you grew up in,
you spend the rest.
Your life trying to make right what you couldn't make right when you had no power to make it right.
Yes. Yeah. And I mean, that's why the most healing has come from getting sober,
working the steps, relying on the steps each day as the day unfolds. And that's where the healing
comes from. Because the only thing I can change is my reaction.
Yeah.
My behavior.
I get that. And that's important. So the first period of sobriety that we're talking about,
you went to you went to treatment. He took you. He dropped you off somewhat against your
whatever judgment you had about it at the time. But you went and then from there you went into AA.
What did your participation look like over a six year period?
So I did 90 meetings in 90 days.
OK.
A 630 a.m. meeting.
Right.
And after three and a half or so months, I started going three days a week to a women's meeting.
OK.
And one day a week to a big book meeting that was also only women. And that was my schedule. That was my routine.
That meeting was very close to where I lived. It was very close to my office once I had started my company.
And, you know, and I thought I thought that I was doing it right. I thought that I was working the program.
Right.
I had a sponsor. I worked the steps. I helped, you know, lead meetings, host meetings, all of that.
Did you have sponsees at the time?
So I had women ask me to sponsor them and I would say no. I remember thinking, what could I possibly offer this woman?
And, you know, I I didn't really understand at the time that all I had to offer was my experience.
And I think.
there was a big part of me, even in those six years, I carried a lot of shame and I just didn't
feel like I had any value to add. So looking back, would you say that that service piece was
the missing piece to the puzzle? Absolutely. That and the willingness to be completely honest about
all of those painful secrets. I kept a lot of secrets. It was either to, you know, protect my
parents. I didn't want people thinking badly of my parents. If I put all this stuff on a fourth step,
I was so embarrassed about what I knew my husband was doing, cheating on me with all these young
women. And I felt, well, if I were prettier or smarter or whatever, and I, so I didn't want
anyone to know about that. You know, those were really,
really big secrets. Yeah, they are. And I didn't, I didn't share about them and I didn't work the
steps on them. So that and not being of service, absolutely. They were two huge downfalls.
So when people are listening to this, wherever they might be, and they're experiencing the same
sort of things that you were feeling at the time, what would you say to a person who said, boy,
that sounds just like the situation I'm in right now. I guess I ought to do something about it.
What would you,
say is the thing that they should do about it? Well, first and foremost to
work the steps and, you know, do a targeted fourth step, you know, work the steps specifically on
that thing. They have a husband who's cheating, you know, I'm powerless over that. I'm going to
turn it over. I'm going to trust, you know, my heart and care and all the things to a higher
power on that particular subject. And then I'm going to do something about it. And I'm going to
get busy writing that fourth step and leaving nothing out. Did your sponsor at the time
sense that you hadn't gone that deep or that you weren't disclosing certain real key elements to
why your life was like it was? I don't know. I have no idea if she did or not.
The reason I asked is I recall listening to the fourth steps of men that I've sponsored
and they would go through it and you could just tell something was missing.
You know, it's just like, you can't tell me all this bad stuff without giving me an idea how you
would have felt about it. And I think once we zeroed in on the feelings behind it, it's always
fear. It's always fear. And there's that fear plus the fear of abandonment and not being loved.
And you get those put together. Getting people to talk about it is tough. So you were sitting
there with a with a incomplete program. Absolutely.
And that three or four days a week that you participated,
how long did that go on for of the six years? Oh,
I remember. I remember it didn't take long for me to drink after I stopped going to meetings.
Okay. And what was your main reason for stopping going to me?
That work was really busy. That, you know, I was recognizing the promises. I had over
five years of work. I was recognizing the promises. I was recognizing the promises. I was recognizing
the promises. I was not ready for the bathtub although in my °ope den that it is okay. It was
perfect. I guess. At that point, you know, life was good. I got this. Okay. So focusing more on work.
Focussing more on the, the lifesthat I had, you know, being gifted because of sobriety,
took me away frommeetings. And then ultimately, I, you know, convinced myself, well,
I'm not really an alcoholic. I just had a problem with a different substance. And and I remember
turning to my husband at this time and saying, is it okay if I have some of this wine? And he said,
yes. So looking to him as if this is going to be stopped, maybe as a last resort, he would stop me,
but he said, go ahead. I think part of me thought that I needed his permission because he was the
one that dropped me off at treatment in the first place. Okay. So six years later when he's still
saying, yeah, you want a drink? Go ahead and have one. Yeah. So the last obstacle to taking
the drink was removed. Yeah. And there was your glory right there. Right. But you know, I'm aware
to what I had always heard in meetings that the relapse starts before the first drink. I mean,
I know that that's absolutely true for me. Absolutely true. Yeah. When you were pouring
the wine into a glass or mixing a drink, to what degree did remembrance of or thinking about
that?
The past with regard to AA, how often did that enter your mind and how did you brush that aside?
Oh God. You know, it's, I'm laughing because people in meetings always say a head full of AA
really ruins your drinking. You know, and for me, all of a sudden it was the drinking that I wanted
to keep a secret. So drinking was the secret that kept the other secrets. Yeah. So drinking was the
safe within the safe.
Yeah. I never thought of it that way, but absolutely. Like I remember, you know, being
somewhere and having a cocktail at the bar with a friend and then thinking, oh no, what if someone
from AA sees me up here? It's like, I knew, but it's the lies that I tell myself, right? That's
what denial is. That don't even know I'm lying. I heard that acronym once, denial. Don't even know
I'm lying to myself. I think I met you before your first drink.
First slip, didn't I?
Yes.
And I remember you sharing and it was a rainy day or something. And we walked out to the parking lot
together and I don't know if you had just come back or you were just about ready to go out.
I was, I had come back, you know, coming back from that relapse was not through treatment.
So I really experienced what it was like to count days, particularly because the disease,
had progressed. So it was rough. It was rough. I thought, I think of it as like, I clawed my way
back in. Yeah. And I kept coming back because I went back to a meeting very shortly after
taking that first drink, but then getting my sobriety date that I have today, it took some
time. It took a couple months. I would get a week and then I would drink and I would, you know,
and I don't know what it was.
One day it just, I was done. I was totally done.
You know, you knew what it was like to be done from the first time, but it sounds to me like
it didn't have a real genuine feel to it because you were coerced into going.
I think, I think what it really came down to was without realizing it, I didn't really believe in
my heart of hearts that I was a true alcoholic because the obsession was relieved so quickly.
And I knew that I had had a problem with cocaine and it was not a prolonged use, but it took me
down really fast when I was, when I lived in New York. And I knew, I knew that without anybody
having to tell me. And I remember living in Houston, being so relieved that I didn't have
access, you know? So I think it was the, the obsession was relieved really quickly that I
thought, yeah, I'm not, I wasn't really an alcoholic. I just had this, I just had this
other problem and I'm not going to drink because it makes my husband happy. I can prove to him that
I cannot do that. But you know, at the end of the day, it's like the book says, the idea that I can
ever drink normally has to be smashed. And I have that image in my mind of like a piece of glass or
a plate being completely smashed, like not being able to go back together. That's exactly what
happened because of that relapse.
That's a tough road to go down. I mean, no matter how you look at it. When you stopped the second
time or your, your most recent, let's hope permanent sobriety date, what did you tell
yourself about how you were going to approach AA from, from that point forward? And which of those
things did you really end up doing to, to make a difference?
So I knew that I had to find a sponsor and that I had to find a sponsor.
I had to find a sponsor who I could do a complete fourth step with and just hold nothing back. And I
remember praying really for the first time, like in a very genuine way, like needing help and
acknowledging that I was really afraid to not make the right choice in asking a sponsor. And so the
prayer, all of a sudden it wasn't a religious thing. It didn't have all the, I had a lot of
hangups.
I had a lot of questions about God because of the religious upbringing I had. And all of that was gone. And I was literally just like, I need help. And then I remember being in a meeting later that week. And it just was so clear to me. And I chose someone who, to me, just was all love, like everything about them, gentle and peaceful. And, and that's who took me through the steps. And I knew that that was,
I knew that that was a lifeline. I knew, I knew it was the, what I had to do.
That's beautiful. So she worked you through all 12 steps.
Yeah, we took it. It was almost exactly a year. We met twice a week. And she took me through the book. We did the steps. She took me through the, the 12 and 12. We did that and the traditions.
Wow.
And, and then it was truly a gift. I mean, I got a sponsee very shortly after.
And I did the exact same thing with her. And it was just right on the heels of me finishing my own steps. And so I took her through exactly the way I had been taken through. Like I had a book with all the assignments and suggestions that my sponsor had given me. And I was able to go through that book with her.
I remember when I saw you when you first came back. And as you were doing the steps with your sponsor, your countenance just brightened. I mean, it definitely did.
Yeah.
And I remember some of the,
I remember some of the tough times that you had with going through the divorce and, and how you, you cried a lot in meetings at that time. I remember, I believe maybe you lost a pet during that time too.
Oh, it was a mess. Everything that I was afraid he would do that kept me in the marriage for so long.
Yeah.
He did.
He did.
Oh yeah. And, and worse than I could have imagined.
You mentioned gaslighting earlier. Was it that kind?
That kind of thing.
Oh yeah. And just lying and, and just all the shenanigans you can get into and going through a divorce.
Yeah.
You know, all of that, it all, it all happened, but you know, today what I can say is going through that strengthened my sobriety. I had to lean into the program. I had to lean into my sponsor, to the steps, into prayer.
It's when I really started meditating in a new way.
Like just what I mean new is like maybe for even the first time, you know, just really getting quiet.
So between the completion of your 12th step, going through the steps with your sponsor the first time, to even the present day, what are the things that you're now doing that you feel deep down are strengthening or providing additional armor against you taking that first drink again?
Because you have something I don't have, Julie.
You have the experience of having slipped.
If you were to look back now over the last six years of your sobriety.
And come up with a handful of things that never would have been possible without sobriety or some of the things that you were rough that you got through.
I can think of just a few of the very good things and maybe some of the tough things that you went through that you would attribute your survival of those things to a good AA program.
Oh, man.
Definitely.
The end of my marriage is the is the I mean, I wouldn't have survived that without strong sponsorship women in these rooms and the ability to be honest.
I did a lot of targeted fourth steps with my sponsor going through that.
And that that was life life saving.
You know, the relationship that I have with my daughter and being.
Able to show up for her as a mom fully present, able to sit with her when she's having her own rough times from the playground or wherever it's been a tremendous a gift doesn't even capture it.
I mean, just I'm so aware that I'm able to give her what I didn't receive as a child.
And it's I'm going to get a bit emotional.
I mean, growing up, I remember that's what I wanted.
I thought, well, if I came from a horrible, unhappy home, I'm going to create a happy home for myself someday.
And, you know, being married and getting divorced, I felt like I had failed.
But now I realize I don't have to be married to create that.
I have that with my daughter and I have that with people in AA.
So that feeling of community is something I didn't have before this.
This last sobriety date, I didn't have that in the first six years.
I didn't have a feeling of a family, and I do today.
So not that it wasn't there, but you weren't there to receive it.
I wasn't there to receive it.
I didn't build a fellowship in the program for myself.
Yeah, no.
So the fellowship got you through that that divorce and.
Let's say.
Created a protective, loving relationship with your daughter.
Yeah, I think, you know, having support going through hard times, it gives me the the, you know, all of a sudden, like my energy meter isn't isn't empty.
I've got something left over to give to my son, to my daughter, you know, to clients.
It's like I.
I was bolstered by all of that, and I was able to show up in life and be very present.
That's important.
And it was in and all of those things, you know, are being of service, you know, showing up and being of service as a mom or being of service to a sponsee.
That's what has netted the joy and the good.
So you've pointed to some really important things that you got through that you would not have been able to get through without.
Being sober and working a good program, the divorce, the nasty divorce that that I don't think you I think it was a lot nastier than than what you've painted today for us.
But I mean, let's just say that anybody who's been in a divorce would would understand.
But and then you you've talked about some of the real gifts that have occurred, especially with regard to your children and that spiritual connectedness.
I usually like to ask people.
Questions that get them to reflect a little bit.
And I wondered if I could ask you this question.
If you, Julie, were to be able to go back in time and to a younger version of yourself, there's a small child, a child, an adolescent, whatever.
And you could go back to them with all the knowledge that you have gained from the point that you were that age till today.
And you could just sit down with them on a park bench.
What would you say to them?
That you are loved.
That's what I would say.
Speaking to myself as a child, that's what I would say.
And that anything's possible.
That's really special.
And the realization of that.
We need to remind us ourselves of that a lot, I think, because it was missing for so long.
Well, I think the biggest gift.
I think the biggest gift of sobriety, and I believe this is true for anyone, is learning how to receive love and how to give love.
That's what this program is about.
And when I'm focused on that, life is beautiful, no matter what.
Well, I want to say thank you for doing this.
And I always, my day is always brightened whenever I see you in meetings.
You've always got a smile on your face.
The times I've seen you that you haven't, you were either physically in pain.
I don't know if there was a time that was it your shoulder or your arm or there was.
Oh, God, so many things.
A sinus surgery was the last one I came in here all banged up.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I remember that.
But to be able to sit down with me today.
And kind of bare your AA soul in a way that, you know, five minutes at a time would never do it in a meeting.
You know, I say that about meetings, whereas meetings are the place where you get to know people five minutes at a time, mostly from a distance.
And, you know, some people who choose to share, share about the same thing every time because that's what they feel comfortable with.
But it only lets you know one small, tiny thing.
Part of their life.
And so you being able to put this down, I think there are going to be some people who really identify with it.
I know I do.
And I think there are going to be some others who have a listen to this and say, yeah, me too.
Well, if she can make it.
And, you know, from there, hopefully.
Now, you're available to be for more sponsors.
I am.
I'm sponsoring two women right now.
And, yeah, I'm available.
I would ask, what makes you?
I think that you could handle three.
Well, I don't know that I could.
Yeah.
But what I do believe is that, you know, if somebody asks me, it's because, you know.
God put them in your life.
Absolutely.
I'm the same way.
Yes.
I ask you that question a little bit tongue in cheek because one of the biggest excuses people give for not sponsoring more than one person is that, oh, I sponsored this guy.
I have to be there for him.
And.
My response to them is, you know, if you have three or four sponsees, they're not going to be all calling you at the same time on the same day.
And you can control that by coming up with times that they can call you.
Right.
But, you know, good sponsorship is sometimes really hard to find.
So not that people will be able to find you as a sponsor as a result of listening to this.
But every now and then I'll get somebody, you know, saying I'd really like to talk to one of your guests.
And I don't give them the information.
But I will give the guests the information on that person and say, you know, here's somebody who wrote in, sent an email saying that they they'd really like to talk to somebody interviewed.
And I'll leave it up to them to decide if they want to do that.
So but overall, I think we did a great job in an hour and 20 minutes with the technical delays we suffered.
I think that this is going to work out really well.
I'll let you know when it's released.
I'm thinking hopefully four to six weeks.
And I'll let you know that.
And one of the things I want to let you know about is that the I put out about 260 interviews so far with about 200 of them being original.
And the other 60 or so that I see, you know, the other 60 or 70 that I put out have been encore presentations, which means I'm taking some something that was done four or five years ago.
And I'm bringing it to the top.
Kind of like a encore presentation on TV or rerun or replay, whatever.
And it amazes me how many people feel like, is that a new story?
And they've been following every single episode.
But after a while, you hear the stories and you think, God, what did she say?
It was so impactful.
And then you start to weave that with other people you've interviewed.
And it's really cool to do it.
But part of me is getting worn out.
I just.
Because I made it a personal objective to put out a interview every week.
Oh, that is.
On Wednesday.
And I hadn't interviewed new people in quite a while.
So now I've got where that was.
But I would take some of the shows from three, four, five years ago and people would hear them and they say, man, I can't believe that was going on in my life then.
Well, you asked some tough questions because I was like.
God, that goes back a while.
You know, I mean, yeah, one of the things that, you know, is true for me today is just I live so much in the present.
I notice you do.
Yeah.
And so it's like, God, yeah, what was that?
You know, I remember how dark it was drinking.
But even with respect to the divorce, I just I can't hold on to it.
I'm glad you I'm glad you came to that realization.
Yeah.
I think that there were a lot of people giving you that feedback, too.
And it probably wasn't until you were ready to really do something with it.
Not so much hear it, but do something with it.
You know, it's funny, though.
It's like sobriety, really living recovery.
It can feel like riding a bike, some of these tools.
And then one day it's like, I'm doing it.
I'm doing it.
You know, yeah, it's it's like that.
It's like that a lot.
Yeah, it's it's it's in the practice that, you know.
Something towards progress occurs.
And yeah, I'm convinced that that it makes such a big difference.
It's perseverance, perseverance.
I remember growing up, I felt like I wasn't allowed to fail.
So it meant that I didn't try certain things because I didn't want to fail.
But what I realized really living the program is there really no failures as long as I don't take that drink.
And then I get to learn each step of the way.
Yeah.
You know, as long as I'm putting one foot in front of the other.
With guidance of the folks around me, it's pretty hard to fail, even neglected to that extent, because there are certain things that we're supposed to be doing that if we're not doing, they're just as dangerous to us as if we were taking action to do it.
I so appreciate your willingness to do this today.
Thank you, Howard.
Well, my friends, that's a wrap for today's episode of AA Recovery Interviews.
Thank you for tuning in.
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If you want to contact me directly with any comments, questions, or suggestions, simply email howard at aarecoveryinterviews.com.
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