299 People in the Room Told Me I Was the Best — Guess Which One I Remembered – Ed M.

I'm shutting off my cell phone, not that I want to influence you. My name's Ed Mutum and I'm an alcoholic. By the grace of God, the Fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous and Sponsorship, I have found it necessary to take a drink or a mood-altering chemical since January 5th of 1971, and I'm extremely grateful for that. My home group is the Big Book Study Group in Davenport, Iowa, and if you're ever in Davenport, don't stay too long, it's a small group and we like it that way. But I'm delighted to be here. Now, I'm going to do... workshops were usually not this formal with reading and that, so I'm going to be coming down there and I'm going to talk to you. Now, why would somebody want to workshop on forgiveness? Well, for me, it's the number one reason I see people go out and drink. It says in our book that resentment is the number one offender. And that if we don't get rid of resentment, in fact, in the book, in the big book, it says if we don't get rid of anger, we are going to say to you, well, yeah, but how do you do that, right? How in the world do you do that? That's what we're going to talk about today. And not that I'm an expert on forgiveness or that I know something more than anybody else, it's just I've had some experience in my life and I've found that sharing it with other people indeed benefits them. So I'm not coming off as the expert or spiritual guru. Some of you may know I'm a pastor. Please don't hold that against me. You never hear any good jokes once they find out you're a pastor, you know. I'll be sitting at a conference and we'll be talking and somebody walks by and says, Ed, how's your ministry? And all of a sudden the guy that was every other word goes, Oh, gee, pastor, so nice to see you. How have you been? You know, pastors are people too. It's just a job I chose to take and it's a job I love. And if you love your job as much as I love my job, then we're both going to be happy. So it's not that I think I have some magical answers. What I think I have is some answers to some questions that plagued me for a number of years sober. I don't know about you, but when I got sober, I really didn't get well real soon. You know, there was a lot of work to do and I found that there's a lot of other people like that, too. You were handed pieces of paper and a pencil when you come in. If you weren't handed one, George would be happy to give you one. Wherever George is at. There's George. He'll be happy to give you a piece of paper. What I'd like you to do, if you'd like, is if there's something you'd like to do, if you'd like, is if there's something in your life you just find it impossible to forgive, write it down and pass it up and we'll talk about it. Again, not that I'm an expert by any sense, but maybe, maybe, just sometimes when somebody else looks at it, there's answers to be had. Here's one. Hold your hands up just till George gets there. And George, if about 15 minutes, if you'd just pass those baskets around. That's the basket. After about 15 minutes, we'll just pass them around. And I'll stop during the time we're talking today and I'll answer those questions. I'll answer them from time to time. I love Alcoholics Anonymous. I love being sober. And I love God. And I don't apologize for any of those three anymore. But it took me a long time, because when we talk about forgiveness, I hated God. I absolutely hated the idea of God. I mean, offense to no one by this, but I used to think, if that's, if that God's a God, bring Him down here and I'll beat the sheet off of Him. That's what I thought about God. And I am, please understand, I'm not trying to offend anybody. That's just where I was. Because I started doing something when I was a child and did it a number of years sober. I call it my 299 to 1. I could walk into a room with 300 people, 299 could turn around to me and say, Ed, you're the best. We love you. And one could go, jerk. Guess who I remembered? For days. I remembered their face. I remembered the way they looked at me. I remembered the way they were wearing their hair. You know what I forgot? The 299. Now whose problem is that? So if I have that kind of problem going in, it's going to be next to impossible for me to forgive. Because you see, the more fault I find with you, the angrier I can be. And you know what I like? Being angry. Why? Because it's familiar. It's familiar territory. I was mad in my earliest memories. And I was annoyed. Well, first, my feelings were hurt. Isn't that wimpy? I'm 6'10", 360 pounds. And I've got to stand up here and tell you the most dominant reason that I got in most of the trouble in my life is somebody hurt my feelings. I mean, come on, that's not very macho. But it is. That's the exact reason. And I never forgot them. Ever. Ever. Now, God. I used to go to church. My mother used to drag. I used to take my seven little children to church. And that was always, you know, she deserved sainthood just for that. And I remember there was a guy that would always sit up front and had thin blue lips, talk like this. All those church people do, you know. And he was sitting up there and I thought, you know, he seemed a lot happier in the bar last night, if you ask me personally. And I don't know who that grump is he's sitting with, but the gal last night was a lot more fun, too. And I would look at him and I would say, what a hypocrite. What a hypocrite. Now, I know you wouldn't go this far, but here's how far I went. I didn't only judge that entire pew or that entire church. I eventually judged all organized religion by my little narrow point of view. Because, you see, I had my one. And that's all I needed. Once I got my one, you're dismissed. No more investigations required. And so I hated the church. I hated the church because I collected a lot of God. I hated God because I collected a lot of God. I collected a lot of ones. When I was ten years old, I had a cousin. And if there was anybody ever close to God, it was Linda. She was amazing. She was beautiful. She was straight A. She was talented. I hated her. You know, she put that bar so high I couldn't even leap to get it, you know. But I loved her, too. I admired her. And I thought, you know, if there's anybody God loves, it's got to be Linda. Because Linda does everything right. Everything. Everything. Linda was walking across the street one day, and a truck hit her and knocked her about 100 feet and killed her. I remember going to the funeral, and I heard people say, God must have wanted an angel. And I thought, so he hits you with a truck. I'll pass. Still do. And I started hating God for ripping people out of my life. Nice people. Nice people. And it helped me do something that I, I became an expert at, being a victim. Oh, God, was I good. I always get tickled when somebody comes up to me and I say, how you been? Haven't seen them in a while. And they'll say something to the effect of, well, you know, three years ago my mother died. Yeah. And then the next year I lost my job. Yeah. And then now I'm just feeling terrible. Oh. They've summed up three years by the worst things that happened in our life. You cannot convince me that good things didn't happen in there, but guess what? They didn't register. Why? Because it would defeat our purpose. What is our purpose to be self-involved and self-pity is my opinion. We don't do it. I never did it intentionally, but I became an expert at grieving. There's one. Now I have lost a lot of people in my life, a lot of people in my life through tragedy. My mother used to call me up and say, Ed, do you know what day today is? And I said, no, mom, what is it? She said, it's the day Aunt Gladys died. I said, mom, Aunt Gladys died 10 years before I was done. She said, yeah, I just thought you should know. And every year on that anniversary, mom had a guaranteed depression. Guaranteed. And she insisted on having it. Now guess what? If I'm around that type of environment, what I'm going to do automatically. I had a guy walk into my office about a year ago now, and he was nice. Don't worry about me. He said, what's the matter? He said, I'm wet, by the way. I love humidity. It just makes me and turns me into a fire hydrant. And he walked into my office, and it was on a Monday, and he said, you know, Ed, I'm going to really be depressed this weekend. I thought, well, you know, at least he's planning them. You know, that's better. Got a little idea what's going on. And I said, why are you going to be depressed? And he said, and he got very sad, and he said, it's the anniversary of my daughter's death. And I said, oh, okay. And I said, how long ago has she died? And it had been a few years. I still think. And I was prayerful for a minute. I said, well, why don't you do this? Why don't you, when you get up, when you go to bed Thursday night, put your favorite picture of her right next to your bed. Friday morning, when you wake up, you turn over and you look at her, and from the moment you open your eyes, you celebrate every good thing about her, every curl on her head, every giggle she ever had, every hug she ever did, and all day long, lift her memory and celebrate her life. Or you can make it all about you. He got mad and stormed up. I understand that. He had two good weeks of going to meetings. People said, what's wrong? Oh, it's the anniversary of my daughter's death. It's just hard for me this time of year. And he will do it forever. Now, what does that have to do with forgiveness? Everything. We've got to forgive the incident. We've got to learn to forgive ourselves. We've got to learn to forgive ourselves. We've got to learn to forgive ourselves. We've got to learn to forgive ourselves. You know, I liked being angry. Angry gave me ammunition for life. The way I was raised, angry is the only reason I'm still alive today. Because there was a number of years in my first years of drinking and using that if it wasn't for my anger, I would have been dead. But after I get sober, the same anger and the same rage around my loved ones isn't such a good idea. And I realize that the base of it is always anger. It's all about forgiveness. My father, my father was one of the... Now, if you had asked me when I first got sober about my father, I said, he's a drunken old fool that didn't ever do much for me. After I got sober, my father became, and it's true, one of the hardest working men I've ever known in my life. Mom always used to tell the story about dad shoveling coal during the Depression. You got 25 cents a ton for coal, and he made $18. And one day, that's my old man, hardworking man. And he had seven of the most ungrateful rotten kids I've ever seen in my life, and he stayed. Wouldn't hurt that. Why? Because I had to understand that anything that's causing me disease, discomfort, ruins my sobriety. Anybody you hate, anything you're not willing to love, my beloved, my beloved, at once you might have some quick not willing to forgive. Everybody you love is paying for it, whether you know it or not. How? By lack of intimacy? By issues? I love that term now. Oh, God. Yeah. Issues? I have so many issues. Oh, do you have any old Playboy? Anyway, that terminal uniqueness. You know, the steps are designed, the 12 steps are designed, in my understanding, to eliminate all that, to relieve the self-obsession and constant self-evaluation to a degree. So when I am constantly self-involved, the disease remains until I make a conscious effort to stop. My dad used to call me the dumb little SOB. That was his favorite little term for me. That's all. That's all I remembered. You know what I thought for years? I was a dumb little SOB. Oh, I'd say I am not, but deep inside I thought, yeah, I am. Yeah, I am. I'm trash. I'm worthless. And I would collect all the ones around me, all the ones around me that said that and would convince me that I was worthless, and then I'd be mad at them. Who's the collector here? It's like school. I hated school my first day. I went to school my first day and Miss Kesey slapped me right across the face. First day in kindergarten, slapped me right across the face. I hated school from that time to this. Well, not this anymore, because I don't hate it anymore. But here's the difference. You know what I realized? I could tell you every teacher that was rotten to me, but I had a real hard time sharing with you the vast majority of teachers that were kind and supportive of me. Oh, I could tell you about Miss Kesey. I could tell you about Miss Burns in fourth grade. But what about Miss Vanderslice in second grade that was just wonderful to me and always complimented me on how I grew? What about them? Doesn't register. Why? Because I need to stay angry. Because it gives me a sense of power. Because it gives me a sense of being. What about brothers and sisters? I had a guy, honest to God, this is a true story, came in, like I was going to tell you a lie, but this is a group, but he came in to me and he said, Pastor Ed, I need to talk to you. And I said, okay, what's going on? He said, man, I've hated my father for years. I need to talk to you. I said, come on in. Nice guy, very successful guy. And this guy came in and sat in my office and he was livid. And he said, I've never talked to anybody about this, but I need to talk to you. And I said, talk to me. He said, when I was 14 years old, my dad bought me a baseball glove for my birthday. And on the same day, he bought my brother, my older brother, a nicer one. And I said, yeah. And this guy had a Harvard education. Daddy paid for. I said, was your father ever abusive? He said, oh, no, no. My father said, did he spend a lot? No, he always made time for us kids. Everything about his father, but he had his one. He had his one and had hated his father for 40 plus years. He didn't after he left that day. But he had hated him for 40 plus years. Why? Because I guess he felt he needed to. Anybody you hate owns you. You know what they do. Two o'clock in the morning when they come to mind. You should be sleeping. Who owns you? They do. Lock, stock, and barrel. Lock, stock, and barrel. You really want to get it, even with somebody who you hate? Love them. Love them to death or to life, if you will. But this constant hating and returning and going over problems and going over problems. And today people love to talk about their childhood. People just love to talk about their childhood. And I understand difficulties in childhood. I was molested when I was a child. Yes, I admit it. And I also got to admit I loved every minute of it. I can't say that. Yeah, you can. Because I'm not hip to doing what everybody else is doing. And it happens to be the truth. Now, was it right or no? But that doesn't change what I've experienced. You know? And I'll be back. And I'll be back. But I never said I'm going to be back. I don't care if somebody else's idea is going to make me feel guilty. It's called freedom. One of the things the 12 steps has allowed me to do is feel who I am and be who I am. Not feel, but experience. Because one of the things I often say is feelings are not facts. That confused me for a long time. I always thought feelings were facts. By God, if you felt that way, that's the way it was. And my sponsor told me one time, he said, You know, Ed, you don't get locked up for how you think. You get locked up for how you act. I don't care what you think. watch how you act. And I'll give you a little example of that. I was about two and a half years sober, and he got me a job at a hotel. I was a bellhop from 11 to 7, had a little blue hat, a little blue coat that came right up to here on me. And I'd sit there from 11 to 7, and little old ladies would come in and drop their bag on my foot. Pick up that bag, boy. And I'd think, which one? You or it? I'm allowed to think that. What I did is go, yes, ma'am. And I'd go upstairs, and I'd take the bag, and I'd go into their room, and I'd put it in their room, and I'd go to the door and wait for my tip, and they'd shut the door and like to break my fingers. And I'm thinking, I'm going to kick in the door, grab this old broad, and throw out the window splatter. But what I did is I said, thank you, and I went downstairs. Doesn't sound like much, does it? It's called freedom from the bondage of self. I learned that my feelings were not facts. I learned that I could act differently. Then I feel. Now, you may have all known that all your life. I somehow missed that information. Because if I was sad, I'd get sadder because I'm sad. You know? I remember one time a gal was working for me. She said, say amen. She happened to be an AA. And I said, how are you doing? She said, I'm having a bad day. I said, well, enjoy it. She said, what are you talking about? I said, don't think about it. You'll make it a horrible day. She said, what do you mean? I said, I don't know about you, but if I get up and I think I have a bad day, as soon as I get thinking about a bad day, I could make it a worse day. Because I hate bad days, and this is a bad day, and this is going to be a worse day. And I've had a lot of them, you know? And when I review them, I survive. It's been over and over and over. By the time I get to work, I'm terribly depressed. So I said, just have a bad day and enjoy it. You know what she said? Feel better already. Attitude. Attitude. Teachability. Why would I want to give up? If I'm not angry at them anymore, does that mean what they did is okay then? No. What it means is you're tired of paying the tab for it. I had a gal, I was down in Longview, Texas, and she came up to me and she said, I want to talk to you. And I thought, okay, here we go. And she said, I said, how can I help you? She said, my dad's been dead for, I'm 56 years old. I paid my dad for 56 years, and he's been dead for 20. And I said to her, well, I'm going to pay you for it. And she said, well, I'm going to pay you for it. And I said, well, okay. How's that working for you? And I said, why are you mad? And I knew why she was mad, because you see it over and over. He molested me. And I said, so you've kept the molestation alive for the last 20 years because he's been dead? She said, I never thought about that. I said, you might consider that. He's gone. And you're still making it happen over and over again. And she said, I just never thought of that. And then she said a question that was just great. I just love this. She said it like this, and the answer came like that. And I got up, and God, as I understand and believe in you, she said, okay, well, what if I die and go to heaven, and he's there? Isn't that a great line? And like that, I thought, I said to her, what a perfect place to meet him, because if he's in the heaven I understand, he understood all the harm he's ever done to you. And he's asked for forgiveness. So what better place to meet him? And she walked away from me, and she said, for the first time in 50 years, I'm going to pay you for it. And I said, well, I'm going to pay you for it. But the first time in 56 years, I'm a free woman. It isn't that we like to stay sick and angry. I don't believe. It's because we don't know any other way. At least I did. At least I didn't. What about people at work? What about people at work? They're out to get your job. You know it. I know it. They're in the corner talking about me again. I know it. They're just jealous. They're just not thinking about me as much as I'm thinking about me. You know? What would happen if you took the principles of this program and took them to work? Oh, I know, new idea. Instead of just in meetings. You know, I hear all the time people say, you know, it's tough to work this program at home. That's a load of crap. The truth is, it's the last place we ever apply it. That's the truth. We're busy impressing people. We're busy impressing people. We're busy asking the guys and gals at meetings, how you doing? Oh, living one day at a time. Living one day at a time. And then being the same jerk to everybody who waits on you. Being the same jerk to your family. Having the same resentment. And then coming to meetings and going, yeah, living one day at a time. How you doing? But bring this into work. How about if you treated everybody at work as if they were a newcomer? How would that change your life? How would it change theirs? Because we have a unique gift in making people very uncomfortable. So how would it change theirs, too? What would happen if all of a sudden we started looking at life as to what we could add to it instead of what we could take from it? What we could give to it instead of what it owes us? One of the reasons that I stayed mad for a long time, and I need to tell you, I don't know where I got this, but I had a sense of entitlement that I don't know where I got this. I don't know where I got this. I don't know where I got it. I certainly didn't get it from my mom and dad. Man, they've worked for every rotten dime they ever had. All of a sudden I come along and you owe me something. One of the greatest freedoms I've ever experienced is to understand you don't owe me a thing. In fact, I've been overpaid. I'll share with you which I got. Now, where did I learn that? In seminary? No, I learned that in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous. You taught me that if I want to actually get better in life, I have to learn to be a better person. I have to learn to be a better person. I have to learn to be a very important person in every area of my life. If I really want to take this program to what it means, it's not just about your alcoholism or your addiction. It's about your life. You ever taken a good look at step three? Turned my will and my life. What more is there? Yet, how many of us do it? I don't know about you, but for a long time I've turned my alcoholism over and I turned my alcoholism over. Well, that's what I'll turn over. But everything I'm going to hang on to. And one of the things I love about the steps is it tells us in the big book that we're reborn. Reborn is a sentence right out of that. What does that mean? Starting a whole new life. How can you have a whole new life if you're still resenting your old one? Of what happened to you when I was a kid. I was always called white trash. And we kept the image up pretty good, but I must say we did a good job of it. When you've got a position in the community, you're expected to uphold it. We did well. And I laugh and joke about that, but I've got to tell you that was the toughest thing for me to ever shake. Especially when I'm meeting the President of the United States, no matter what party you're in. I don't have that problem anymore. Because I'm not that person anymore. And I'm not that image anymore. Why? Because I've forgiven them for programming me that way. And I've forgiven me for listening. When I was a year sober, a little over a year sober, the old man told me to come over to the house. He said, Boy, why don't you come on over for dinner? And I don't know about you, but when my old man asked me over for dinner, there was big trouble. But I'd hung around you guys for a while. And you told me, uh, that if, uh, something was going to change in my family, it had to begin with me. Couldn't wait for them to shake up. Had to start right here. So I went to dinner. I suited up and I showed up and I went to dinner. And, uh, we had a nice dinner and about halfway through, Dad said, Boy, and I thought, Oh, here it comes. I said, Yeah, Pop. He said, Just want to tell you I'm proud of you. Uh, stop my world. You know, they say when you get sick, you're sober. And by the way, I co-sign this all the way that miracles will happen in your life. If miracles aren't, it's because you haven't done what's asked. It's just because you haven't done what's asked. You do what's asked, miracles happen. And I believe that. I co-sign it. I lived it. I experience it to this day. But you want to know what? My old man telling me he was proud of me wouldn't even made the list of miracles. That was just so far beyond my concept of reality. Thank God. I just wouldn't have, when I walked into the house that night, had you hooked the lie detector up to me and said, do you care what your old man thinks about you? I would have said no, and it would have said true. I am so grateful I was so horribly wrong about so many things. And I got to find it out sober. You know what? I celebrate when I'm wrong because then I can start new. Then I can start new. And that night he told me he was proud of me. And I've realized a lot of things since that day. One, it was the first time I ever did anything to be proud of me about. You know, you're not so proud when you're coming down to bail your son out of jail and you're so drunk they throw you in and let him go home. That's not a good deal, you know. I remember Mom come home and said, where's Dad? I said, in jail. How'd he get there? I have no idea, Mom. But also, it threw a kink and I hated him, you see. I hated him. And when you start taking that away, you're taking away my identity. You're taking away the familiar. If I give this up, then what am I going to have? What am I going to be? If I give this up, if I give up all this stuff I've lived all these years and all this anger, what am I going to be? It's called peace. God, I missed that one. It's like my sponsor. One time, you know, I hope you got a sponsor. If you don't, get one. Trust me, it works better. I went up to my sponsor one time and when you got a sponsor after a while, you can ask them the tricky questions, you know, the ones you just wouldn't ask everybody. And I said, how do you be a gentleman? And he said, you act like one. Man, I would have never thought of that. You mean you just act like it? Yeah. That's how you become a gentleman. You want to be a gentleman? You want to be a better father? Act like it. You want to be a better partner? Act like it. There's no big mystery. You see, I liked working through the process. I liked working through it, looking at it, and deciding what's good for me today. I stayed crazy all that time, but I was interested. I liked my insanity, you know. I ran into a guy in Bowling Green, Kentucky about two years ago. He was a nice guy. He used to go to meetings with us out in, by the way, be here tonight for Karen's talk. Karen and I go way back. We're secretly married, but I can't reveal that. I lost where I was being so cute, though. I really did. Thank you. Bowling Green. And there's a guy there, and he said, Ed, how are you? And I said, good. And he said, do you remember me? And I really didn't remember him, but I've learned to be honest about that. I just said, no, I don't. He said, oh, I remember you. And I said, really? I said, why is that? And he said, Thursday night meeting. You knocked a guy out with one punch. I was like, ooh, jeez. And I thought, shh, don't tell anybody. Shh. I'm a spiritual guru now. Shh. And I'm so grateful he told me that because that's when I was processing my anger. I was working through it. I was doing pretty good, too. And we had this meeting, and it was a participation meeting. And this guy was chattering at the first part of the participation. I tapped him on his back, and I said, excuse me. I can't hear the speaker. He went, shh. And I'm, oh, OK, OK. And at the coffee break, he got up and said, don't tell me to shut. And I said, oh, no, no, you don't understand. I said, in the first part of the meeting, we don't talk during participation. And little Alice come over. Little Alice would come over and put her hands on my chest, said, Big Ed, sit down, Big Ed. Oh, I said, oh, honey, don't worry about me. I'm just having a conversation with this guy. It's just. And Alice went and sat down a few minutes back. She was saying, Big Ed, sit down. And I said, you don't. Honey, I'm just talking with this guy. And I turned around, and he said, don't you ever. And the next thing I know, he's flying over four rows of chairs. My first thought, honestly, was, how am I going to tell my sponsor about this one? And my program kicked in immediately. I went around the chairs, and I woke him up. And I made direct amends to him right there. And I sponsored him for the next five years. There he is. So yeah, Barry said nobody had ever gotten his attention before. He'd been around. But now I say that, and it's cute, and it's funny. But it's also very disgusting, because one of the things I've always loved about AA is the sense of safety that I have here. I do not condone putting your hands on anybody in a meeting, unless there's some dangerous things happening, which I've been in meetings where that happened too. But I don't condone that. I share that story with you, because at that time, I was working on my anger. Now, I was processing it. And I was expressing how I felt. Shortly after that, I'm going out to Thousand Oaks to speak at a meeting. I'm on the freeway there, north of Los Angeles. And I loved LA. I lived there for 17 years. And car rage was just wonderful. When you don't have much of a program, and you're working on your anger, it's a great place to live. And I really liked it, because you could get out and beat each other up all day long. But I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. I didn't like it. And it was just, it was just so wrong. Nobody called the cops. I was just getting home. And I'm going out to speak. And I'll give this spiritual talk. And this guy cuts me off, says I'm number one, and locks up his brakes. And I slow down the car. And then he did my favorite move, he went, pull over. I thought, excellent. OK, let's pull over. Let's do that. Let's pull over. And he pulled over. And he got out of his car. And as soon as he opened the door, that was it. And he pulled over and he got out of his car, and as soon as he opened the door, that was my green light. He's coming at me. He opened the door. I got out and I grabbed him by the crotch and his collar and I threw him over his car. And I thought, oops, I'm probably not supposed to be doing this, you know. Good member of the program, I went over and I picked him up, put him back in his car, dusted him off, and said, you know, I'm a member of a 12-step program, and when we do something wrong, his eyes got this big. And a simple thought crossed my mind, is this really the example I want to set as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous? And the answer was a resounding no. A resounding no. What had I not done? I had not applied the steps to my life in depth on every aspect of my life. I did, unbeknownst to me, just enough to get by. And I have come to believe this, that if we're going to be happy, joyous, and free, I have to do this at depth. I want to read a couple questions or two. Oops, going to spill my water, and it runs very well. Okay, most professionals I must deal with on a daily basis who are arrogant, ignorant, and deserve disdain, I think it is. Oh, no, and, oh, excuse me, are ignorant and by design. That's what it is. Well, good. How's that mirror look? Huh? If you spot it, you got it. One of the things that made me crazy after I was a few years sober is when I saw someone behaving the way I had behaved. I promise you, if you look at this, and I'm not trying to make fun of you, you look at your inventory and you look at this, you'll know exactly what they're up to. And the most important thing to do is to be an example to them of how it can change. You know, they always say in AA, when you point your finger at somebody else, there's three pointing back at you. You heard that? Everybody heard that? Yes. What they don't tell you, it's about the good stuff, too. If you see something in somebody else that touches your heart and lifts you up, and you think, my God, they're wonderful, the only way you can see that is it already exists in you. You see, I believe the 12 steps are designed to teach me something I would have never believed. That I've been good, and I'm acting rotten. I always thought I was rotten and trying to get good. Uh-uh. I am good, but I can act rotten. I don't know if that makes a difference to you, but that made an incredible difference to me. It gave me a freedom like I've never known. So these people who are arrogant and that by design, why don't you just kill them with kindness? Why don't you just be the most excellent example of the best member of AA you can ever be? Because it's important, the reflection we give. I was having a conversation with one of the guys I sponsor. We were at a restaurant, and it was exactly this. I said, you need to be an excellent example of AA no matter where you go. You need to be held accountable, and you need to make sure how you behave. And we're sitting there, we're having a great AA conversation. You know how you have those every once in a while, you just get to a restaurant. Well, the waitress comes over after about 45 minutes. And she said, uh, man, I'm sorry I forgot to turn your order in. And you know what I said to her? How refreshing. Thanks for being so honest. I blow it from time to time, too. Go ahead and turn them. She said, are you sure? And I said, yeah, no, it's no problem. And she said, are you sure? And I said, no, no. Fine, we're having a good conversation. She went and got the manager, and the manager come and said, are you okay, sir? And I said, yes, you blew it. I blew it. You know, well. I said, I appreciate the honesty. And we continued our talk about being an example no matter what situation in there. As we got about halfway through our stakes, when a couple got up from the booth, around the side from me, on the other side. And they came up and this guy said, your voice is so familiar. Are you Ed M. that talks in AA? And I said, yeah, I am. He said, I just wanted to thank you. Your talks have changed my life. And his wife was there with tears in her eyes thanking me. Now imagine if I'd said, you did what? Think about it. Not only would I ruin her day, but here's a guy who had some hope and trashed it. Just because I was a little moody. Really is important. So that's what I would say with those people you work at. Show them your best unselfish condition you can give them. And there is no question there. I like those. Ex-husband, shoot him. That rotten, dirty. If you see my wife, get her too. You know? Isn't that what we think? Terrible. And it's a good question because it causes a lot. You know, there again, our number one problem is resentment. I have a dear friend of mine who was with me when I was drinking. He just came into my life two weeks ago again. And this is after like 40 years. I see him from time to time. But he's a dear friend of mine, Ronnie. He always had my back. I always had his. And when I got sober, started to get sober, we'd walk into places and he'd go, Eddie ain't drinking. You know, that's the kind of guy he is. And he and his fiancee came from some counseling for me. And for three hours, they screamed and pointed fingers about yesterday. Well, you did this and you did that. Well, remember when you did this and you did that. And at the end, I said, you know, how's this working for you? They've been doing this for six years. You see, I'm the kind of guy that if they come to me like that, and they say, you know, we've been working on this marriage, I'd say to them, maybe God doesn't think it's a good idea. Don't blame this mess on God. He's washed his hands of it. And I said, 90% of your problems is living in yesterday and missing today. Living in yesterday and afraid it's going to happen tomorrow. Wasn't that the same with exes? I was married for 10 years. And I have three children out in Long Beach, California. And for a number of years, they absolutely hated every breath I took because their mother did not like me. And for her own reasons, didn't. And some of them were quite valid, I might add. And in the last few months, I've been able to email and write my kids. They're now 18, 19, and 25. My oldest son's majoring in Vicodin. Hopefully, he'll get the N.A. pretty quick. And it doesn't look like it. I think he'll be dying pretty soon. If he doesn't do something. Because now he's got the meth thing going with the Vicodin. That's not a good mix. But all I ever tried to do with my ex was try to work this program. And I didn't always do great. Two years ago, New Year's Eve, was the first time I yelled at her in 15 years. And I apologized immediately. Because if something's going to change in our relationship, again, it's got to start with me. I can't wait for her to understand. I can't wait for her to understand what she's done. Or him to understand just the impact he did. And the wrongs and rights of all of us. That's called control and manipulation. And what I've got to do is I've got to live my best today. Now there again, forgiving them. Does that mean everything they did was okay? No. It just means you're not paying the tab anymore. And they don't own you anymore. And that's tough because, you know, if you start hating the ex, then you might have to get involved with somebody currently. You know, and then you've got to start fresh. And that's scary too. Clint H. one time was talking to me. And there had been a series of whines from me. How you doing Ed? Well, well, and on and on. How you doing? Well, people are looking at me funny. And this went on and on. Finally one day he said, how you doing Ed? And I said, well, well, well. He said, you know Ed, you've got to fight through a lot of happiness to be that miserable. Pretty much copped out. And I said, well, well, well. Pretty much got my number. And I didn't know I was doing it. It's the ones in my life. Give up the ones on your ex-husband. Just for this weekend. Give up the ones on your ex-husband. And if you don't feel better by Sunday night by doing that, take them all back. But just give them up for today. Just give them up for this weekend. All the ones about your ex-husband. Because there was something about him that he got. You married him. There always is. You know, we always downplay it. And so and then I said, I didn't see this. I didn't see. Well, what did you see? You know. And there's something good in the worst of us. So your ex-husband, my advice was get unmarried. I wouldn't even make him my ex-husband anymore. It's not my, I try not to say my ex-wife anymore. I said mother of my children. That's positive. Okay. One more. I can't make sense of this one. Sorry. Using while pregnant during firstborn. How do you forgive yourself for that? Okay. Well, absolutely. I was going to ask you a question. I know you don't know that. I'm not the type of person to forgive. I could not possibly help you. But I had an excellent question. Thanks for your honesty. Really appreciate it. I was going to, that was my next move. I was going into the toughest, toughest thing for me to forgive ever was me. Toughest, toughest person ever to forgive is me. I challenge people who are having a tough time with a little simple life. I challenge them to actually treat themselves as if they actually like them. Whatever problem you're going through, you're in a good place. problem you're going through right now, I want you to start treating yourself as you would someone you loved and respected and admired. With the same compassion, love, and understanding you would somebody you actually cared about. And most people, their eyes roll back in their head because that is so foreign from anything I ever knew. But it's the first step in forgiving ourselves. And especially drinking and using with children. It is a disease. I know a lot of people are saying crap today, but sooner or later they'll get into the rooms and get sober too. Don't worry about them. It's like new medication. We've been through this in the 80s with Librium and Valium. We're losing people right and left. And sooner or later people will get back to, no, it don't work. A few cases it does. That's the killer. Most it doesn't. But I would suggest I lost my train of thought again. First pregnant. It is a disease. And if I had a brain tumor that made me do those things, would I hate myself then? And I don't know whether your child's healthy or not, if there are some repercussions or not, but either way there's not a whole lot you can do about that. The most gracious thing you can do is love that child and love yourself. I hear a lot of people in A, they say, you know, I can't love anybody else until I love myself. We're not self-involved anymore, are we? Make it all about me, okay? And then I'll make it about you. But make it about me first. It's like people say, God's testing me. I know God's testing me. That's right, he forgets the entire world just to screw around with your day. That's his idea. You're that important. That's exactly right, you know. I fell in love with the membership and fellowship of Alcoholics Anonymous. And because they loved me, I came to believe that I was lovable. Because they loved me and I loved them long before I loved me. I came to believe that I was lovable. When we get things like death, you know, or our children, those things that get so close to our hearts, those are the tougher to forgive. But once you forgive them you get the most freedom. I would suggest you to just have a little bit of peace. But if you're not free, then you don't have a lot of freedom. just to your this, that you didn't do it intentionally. And if you did it intentionally while you were under the disease, it's still under the disease, that you have a right to be forgiven. And now's the time. Or you can hang on to that field guilty forever. It's your choice. I had dinner with my dad. He told me he was proud of me and loved me. I went to a meeting afterwards, and I got over to my sister-in-law's house, and my mother called, and she was crying and hysterical, and I said, what's wrong, Mom? And she said, come home quick, Ed. Dad went across the street to get himself a quarter beer and me a bottle of pop, and now they're carrying bodies out, and there are policemen everywhere. I don't know what's going on. And I had a pseudo-intellectual God at that time. What I mean by that is I started professing a faith I didn't have. I went from atheist to mimicking every word I heard old-timers say. Why? Because I'd look in those old-timers' eyes, and they'd talk about God, and I knew they were telling the truth. So I started parroting whatever they said. God's in his heaven, all right with the world. Easy does it. Live and let live. And I'm driving across town that night, and we had an ice storm. We get them in the Midwest where you get about a quarter-inch ice over everything. It's just amazingly hard to drive. And I'm thinking, well, God's in my life now. Nothing bad can happen. And I pull up there, and I remember seeing more policemen than I've ever seen in my life. Now, if you don't know my story, I'm a cop fighter. Used to be. When I saw a badge, I swung. I don't care if you were a crossing guard. I'd take you out. Just the way it is. Let's see what you got, big fella. Or a little lady. I don't know. But I saw a badge. I swung. And when I got out that night, an amazing thing happened. I was a little over a year sober, and those cops had shaped up like nobody's business. I found out amazing things. If I don't talk about their heritage, they don't talk about my heritage. If I don't talk about their sexual behavior, they don't talk about my sexual behavior. Amazing stuff. And in that year I'd been sober, I'd been working in the courts, and I grew to respect law enforcement. My greatest enemies, I realized, were there to protect people like me from people like I used to be. You know? And I went in there and there were cops everywhere. And I walked in and one of the officers said, Ed, what are you doing here? And I said, my dad was in here. He said, oh, I got it. And I said, why? What's going on? He said, Ed, all we can tell you is somebody walked in, opened fire, and shot everybody. And I looked down the bar and I saw that pool of blood with my father's glasses all smashed up in it. And I knew, but I didn't want to know. I just knew, but I didn't want to know. And I turned to the officer and I said, what do I do? Because the only thing I knew how to do was fight. The only thing I knew how to do was rage. And my heart was broken at that point. And I didn't know what to do. And all these emotions were coming at me like semi-trucks, just... And he said, Ed, go up to the hospital. They've taken everybody up there. Some are dead, some are alive. Go up and see if your dad's there. So I went up to the hospital. And there was an officer up there that hadn't forgotten my past. And he was rude and he was nasty and he was vulgar and quite inappropriate. Right? Basically what he said is, if I stayed up there, he'd have me run in for obstructing justice. And it'd be in my best interest to get out of there. He'd identify my... All the bodies of my own man went there. And an amazing AA miracle happened. I said, okay. And I left. A year and a half before that, they would have been looking for a new lieutenant because nobody talks to you that way. Not still standing. Nobody. And I left. And I called the one cop that for the last five years of my drinking and escapades tried to put me in prison. You know why I called him? He was a good cop. You know why I know he was a good cop? He could have set me up 3,000 different ways. But he never did. He used to say, I'm going to catch you straight up, Ed. And when I do, you're going away for a long time. And I used to say, everything's fair in love and war, chum. That's the guy I called. And he said, Ed, what's going on? And I said, my dad was in that tavern. And Bob said, oh, my God, Ed, hold on. And he fed me. He fed me information. He said, come here, man. This is an active murder investigation. You know they ain't supposed to do that. But he did. Because he knew me and he knew from where I came. And he kept saying, are you all right, Ed? I said, yeah, I'm okay. I just need to find Dad. And they said, well, all we can come up with is that he got wandered outside. After he got shot, they took him hostage. So we formed a search party. And we searched the streets for 10 hours that night. And the only thing I could remember was the search party. And I could remember it one word at a time. That's all I could handle. And we searched the streets all night. At 8 o'clock the next morning, that officer called me up and said, well, Ed, anybody could have made a mistake. Why don't you come up and identify your old man? And I remember walking up there into that morgue and seeing my dad laying there with that bullet hole in his face. And I reached for that faith I'd been professing and came up with a handful of nothing. It had just been everybody else's words and none of my experience. And I said, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. God, I'd never been more alone in my life. My heart had never been broken that deeply before in my life. And I had never felt so apart from in my life. And I opened that door and went to walk out and there was members of AA and Alamon standing there. You see, God does for me what I can't do for myself. And they just started walking with me. And everywhere I went, there was members of AA. If any of you here have ever had a loss, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Everywhere I went, there was a member of AA. It was Iowa's most heinous crime. And please, God, it always stays that way. That's one of my prayers every day. Let it stay that way. We don't need anything to top that one. And I remember going everywhere. And it was kind of like a daze. And then they had the funeral. And the guy that did my father's funeral gave me one of the keys to kingdom. And he was going everywhere. And he was a Catholic priest named Father Grubb. Now, that might not be unusual, but we were Lutheran. And Lutherans and Catholics in the Midwest didn't get along too good, if you know what I mean. But Dad, six months before he got murdered, went to the hospital and he was sick and he called the spiritual care department. And he said, I'd like somebody to come up and baptize me. And this Father Grubb came up and baptized Dad. And Dad really didn't like it. He said, you know, he was a good guy. He'd never talk about the baptism, why he did it. Nobody's business. That's the way Dad was. But he said, I really liked him. So Mom thought, you know, it's the only member of the clergy the old man ever liked. Better see if he can do the funeral. And in the middle of the funeral, he said something that gave me one of the keys to the kingdom. He said, you know, a lot of people would say Clifford's death is God's will. He said, I don't believe that for a minute. And I sat right up in view. He said, I believe God created human beings, gave us all the free will. Some of those human beings chose to do this. And now it's God's will. And it was like the weight of the world fell off my shoulders. Because I had it all. If there's a God, why are the kids starving in Africa? Real simple. We're not feeding them. God gave us more than enough. Ain't his deal. He's provided. We have it. If there's a God, why are people dying of cancer? Right and left. Because we pollute everything we touch and want to blame everybody else. Don't blame it on God anymore. It's his deal. Breaks his heart worse than it does on us. God didn't kill my dad to teach me a lesson, which was the first thought I had when I walked into that morgue. Because I still had some ones from church. It was one that said, anything you bring into this life will come into your family's lives for generations to come. And my first thought was, he killed dad to get even with me. And when he told me that, I came to believe from that day to this, that if it isn't good, it isn't God. If it isn't good, it isn't God. It's of human nature, but it isn't of God's nature. And man, I love that. I love that. And it gave me one of the keys so I could finally forgive that God. You know, I'm not going to tell you that God killed dad so I'd like God. But I believe this, in every tragedy in our life, there's a couple ways we can look at things. We can look at God's grace or we can look at reasons to be angry. I chose for a lot of years to look for reasons to be angry. And then I realized that I had to start looking at things to find some peace. And that's given me a lot of peace. I've been able to share that with people all over the world since after the last 30-some years. And it's brought a lot of comfort and peace. But you see, that's the way the God I know and love is today. Imagine if I still had my old God. I would have missed all that. And I would have been as much of an empty vessel, empty with any goodness, just full of anger and rage. And what good would I be to anybody then? Thanks. You're welcome. Thank you. Oh, I love this. I identify with how to forgive my dad for cheating on my mom when I was a teenager. I had that exact experience. I had that exact experience. And why I got so hotty-totty about my dad cheating on my mom, I guess it's the only self-righteous thing I could get. You know, because what is there I haven't done? You know, before I start hating him and taking his inventory, let's take a little look at ours. You know? What good is that memory serving you now? What goodness does that bring into your life that your father cheated on your mother? And how faithful have you been? I got a guy I sponsor, and he says, and I don't mean to be offensive, it's just the truth as I see it. He said, you know, I've been 100%... He invited me to go hear him talk, and I thought, he's heard me talk, a hundred times, the only time I go to listen to him once, you know, and talking. He said, I've been 100% faithful to my wife for the last 12 years. Just 100% faithful. Driving home, he said, what did you think of my talk? I said, well, you need to be a little more honest. And he said, what do you mean? I said, you said you've been 100% faithful to your wife. And he said, well, I have. And I said, oh, so when you're in the shower and when you're alone, you're only thinking of your wife, huh? Well, no. You know? Just be honest. He said, what do I say? I said, I'm more of a faithful husband than I've ever been. That's the truth. But when you're having your intimacies everywhere, don't say you're 100% faithful. You're on that internet three hours a night. Don't be telling how faithful you are, because you're a liar. And the nice thing about being here is we can be honest about where we're at. And that there's some integrity in that. So I would say to you, what payoff are you getting for hanging on to that resentment? What's your payoff? Do you feel superior to your dad? Do you feel like you can blame them rather than you? I mean, there was always payoff. I remember the day I realized there was a payoff of being a son of a murder victim. I realized that, and it made me sick. Because I didn't know. But there was. I'd walk into a room, oh, Ed's dad was murdered. Oh, no. And I'd go into, yeah. I didn't know what I was doing. I didn't know there was a payoff. Little attention getter. You know, what would happen if you forgave your dad for doing that? Would the relationship heal? That might be a bigger problem than forgiving. Because then you'd have to grow up. And I'm not big on growing up. I want to hold on to those childhood angers. I don't want to work this program in my life with my father, especially if I feel real good about hating him. Because that's my identity. And if I give that up, who would I be? You'd be a happy, joyous, and free person. But until you give that up, it's just going to haunt you and it's going to own you. Okay, I have a good question. I have a brother who refuses to forgive me because I'm an addict. He never speaks to me. Should I forgive him? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what? If you continue to work this program and you continue changing, there will be a time when he can't help but speak to you. Because your actions, you're going to speak so loud, he can't hear a word you say. I don't know about you, but I'm sorry I had to eliminate from my vocabulary. Because I'm sorry is when I dismissed you. Oh, did that hurt your feelings? Sorry. See ya. It's like making amends. I couldn't go say sorry. I had to go up to Karen and say, Karen, what in your eyes can I do to make this right? You're the one that was harmed. Eighth and ninth ain't about you. It's about the harm we did out there. Making their lives better. And repairing the damage we did. If you still think it's about you, go back to four and five. You're missing something. You know? You're missing something. So if your brother isn't talking to you, you work the program the best you can and understand that maybe some of the damage you did in your disease may not be enough. And understand that maybe some of the damage you did in your disease may not be enough. And understand that maybe some of the damage you did in your disease may not be enough. The disease may never be repaired. But for you not to forgive him just keeps you sick too. So you don't forgive him. You forgive him for him, but you forgive him for you too. Because if you don't, sooner or later, it's gonna come back to haunt ya. I have forgiven, but he can't, but he won't, he still wants to punish me for my part. I have already done my ninth step also, twice. You know, just because you say sorry doesn't mean there isn't some repercussions. That's part of the deal. That's part of the deal. And what I would suggest to you is if you made your amends twice and they haven't accepted it, you continue to be you and work your program to be a continuing example of the amends you made and not go back to your old attitude about, well, you've got to forgive me, or hating them because they don't forgive you. I mean, if one person's going to be sick, let it be them. That's what I'd say. Infidelity. Oh, good one. There you go. There's a whole new program for everybody. You know? I remember when I quit smoking a number of years ago, I used to say, you know, it's the only vice I had left. Like, that was the truth, you know? I bought it. I bought it. Your bad. Yeah. Infidelity. I would suggest there's a time in our lives that when, at least in my life, when I wouldn't trade my integrity anymore. And if it was a habit, then I needed to apply these steps to that habit. And I needed to be relieved of that obsession. You know, there's over 236 different registered 12-step groups. Now, did you know that? 236 different 12-step groups. Kind of tells me that whatever comes up in life, these steps are worth for. So if it's infidelity, if it's on your part, start working these steps. On it. And apply 1 through 12 on your infidelity. And if it's on their part, I'm not a big fan of people hanging in with people who are, you know, not being faithful because it's just a matter of time before you're hurt again. And you either like doing that and you like staying sick. I don't know. But if it's on somebody else's part, I would simply say, and what I have said is if that's what you want to do, that's your right. But I won't be cosigning your deal. I don't do that in a relationship. You know, it's really something. That after you're sober for a while, you don't do crazy anymore. I don't do crazy anymore. Honest to God, I used to love crazy. You know, two dinglings don't make a bell. You want to bet? You know? God, I love crazy. And then I realized that crazy was just going backwards in my sobriety and in my approach. When I got into the ministry 14 years ago, I realized I had to hold myself to a higher standard than I'd ever held before because I love women, always have loved women. Man, do I love women. And I realized that if I'm going to be in the ministry, I've got to hold myself to a higher standard than ever before. And I was willing to do that. And one of the things I understood is I couldn't do crazy anymore. And I said, God, if somebody's interested in me, you need to hit me with a two-by-four. Because I ain't going there. I cannot trust me. If somebody's interested in me, you hit me with a two-by-four and I'll know. And I'm speaking out in Oklahoma. And there's this gorgeous girl. Gorgeous. God, gorgeous. And I'd met her a few years ago, and she was always just terribly gorgeous. And she walked up to me after me and said, Ed, can I talk to you? And I said, sure. And she said, I hope I don't offend you, but I'm just really attracted to you. And I went, oh, wow. Well, thank you. Inside, I'm going, thank you, Jesus. Thank you. Thank you, Jesus. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah. And we started talking. It was wonderful. I mean, we had that connection. And we talked, and I should say just talked, for about three weeks every day, two and three times a day. We prayed together. We talked together. It was like amazing. And in about three weeks, she started telling me what I needed to do for her to be happy. And I said, you know something? I'm not for you, dear. I don't do crazy anymore. If you can't be happy on your own, then we don't need to be together. And I left. Freedom from the bondage of self. Freedom from the bondage of sick dependencies that some Tom Cruise, you complete me. You complete me. May complete Tom. And that's fine. God completes me. I get real nervous when people say, you know, I don't know if anything had happened to them if I could make it. It's called real dependency on the wrong higher power, I'll tell you. And it's really, really, really scary. So I don't do crazy anymore. And I like not doing crazy. And I find out that I'm just as happy and joyous as free as everybody else wants to be. And that I have given up that sense of there has to be somebody in my life for me to be happy. Now, I'd like there to be somebody, but that's none of my business. And the reality of it is, I have thousands of people in my life. My email list is 375 people that I write to a lot. And I love all of them, men and women. And I love them equally. And I wouldn't trade that for anything. One more. I can't forgive my ex for beating me. He's deceased. He's still beating me. And I'm not trying to be funny. I'm dead serious. He's still beating you here. You've got to give him the right to rest in peace, too, because as someone who used to use physical violence, I can tell you that his heart broke every time after it happened, no matter what he'd say to you. No matter what he'd say to you. In the darkness of his own mind, in that jail cell afterwards, the self-loathing was incredible. And it's time for you to forgive him. Because people who beat on people, men who beat on women, and dare I say, women who beat and abuse men, are sick. And they need help. Hating him isn't any help. I would suggest you let his memory go. He's already had hell on earth. If that's what he put you through. I would suggest, you let him go. You know, back to grieving. A lot of times, we want to hang on to the grieving. There's a story about a guy who went to see this pastor. And the pastor was there, and the guy was crying. He had lost his son four years ago. And every day, his heart was absolutely broken. He could just not look at life without his son being in it. And the pastor said, okay, I know you're a Christian. I want you to close your eyes, and I want you to visualize this with me. Would you agree to do that? And he said, yes. And he said, okay, close your eyes. And he closed his eyes. And he said, I want you to envision a long line. There's thousands of people in white robes. And they're all lined up, and they have candles. And they're coming up to St. Peter at the gates of heaven. And they light the candle. And when they light, their face illuminates, and they're bright, and then they get to go into heaven. And you've never seen them. Can you envision that? Can you see them going in? He said, yeah, I sure can. He said, okay. I want you to envision that. I want you to envision the bench over on the left, and your son sitting there with his candle. And he said, then I want you to ask your son a question, and I will answer for your son. Would you do that? And he said, yes, I will. And he said, okay. He said, ask your son why he's sitting there. And he said, son, why are you sitting there? And the son said back, every time I get in line and I go to light my candle, your tears drowned it out. I can't go. I can't go in. And he said, I want you to allow your son to get in line and light his candle. You see, even when it's love or even when it's ill feelings, we pull on those memories and we pull on those spirits, everybody's bound up. It's probably time to let that spirit go free. I mean, what can he owe you anymore? How can he make up for the abuse he's done? And the abuse continues because you keep thinking about it. I ask you to leave the abuse here and leave the sadness here and leave that incident here. The guys that killed my father, they got them all. There was five young men. They were gang members. And I had to go to trial. And I remember walking into court and I saw this one guy sitting there and he had his little do and his little attitude. And I thought, you know, you give me five minutes with him, we don't need to trial. But I'd gone to, you know, I'd been going to AA and they said, you might be the only example of AA. Anybody ever knows, you got to go to court and behave. I thought, what an order. I can't go through with it, you know. Because court was where you really let a rock and roll, you know. But I went to court and I remember looking at him and I just behaved myself and testified about finding my, identifying my dad's body and his billfold, things like that. And then I left and they convicted him and I was pretty pleased about it. And now we'll fast forward to 27 and a half years and I'm a, I'm a pastor in Davenport, Iowa, the same place I was born and raised, about five miles from where I got sober. And I'm preaching on forgiveness one day. And I stopped right in the middle of the sermon and I said, you know what, I got to stop because I have never told the guys who killed my father that they were forgiven. You see, forgiven is just part of it. If they don't know it's still self-serving, I need to tell them. That's the completion of the forgiveness. And I said, I will not preach on forgiveness again until, until each of them know that they're forgiven. As God would have it, two and a half weeks later, one of the guy's sentence was overturned after 27 and a half years. And they said, you know, either retry him or let him go right now. And the press all came to me in my hometown. I'm well known there in the nice way now because of how you guys taught me to behave. And the press come up and they said, Pastor Ed, what do you think? And I said, you know, it's time to heal. Let him come home. Let him, let him, let him regroup. Let him do whatever he's, how to do. Let him start fresh. And they said, well, he went in there when he was 17. He doesn't know how to work. Where's he going to live? He doesn't have a trade. And I said, he can come live with me if he'd like. And they were taken back by that. And I'm not sure why because I'll tell you, this last hour and a half has been from my experience. I'm not telling you things that are to make you feel good. I'm telling you things that change my heart and my mind. And that story went around the world. I heard from 2020. I heard from 48 hours. I heard from Oprah. How can you do that? How could you do that? And I said, well, Oprah, you know, if you're working step eight and nine, you kind of, you know. And, and it literally went all over the world. It's on the front page of the Los Angeles Times, London Times, New York Times. And two and a half weeks later, I'm walking down a prison cell, a prison hallway in a prison that my brother, spent a lot of time. And I swore I'd never go there again. And I certainly would never be locked up there. And I'm walking down that prison to see a guy. Last time I saw him was 27 and a half years before that. And I said, you give me five minutes. We don't even need a truck. And I walked into a cell. And there he was with his attorney. You want to know how well AA works? Now you are not going to believe this, but honest to God, at first I couldn't remember the names of the guys that killed my father. Are you kidding me? You could hate on that forever. Couldn't remember the names. His first name was Sherman. I kept thinking Sherman Williams, the paint. You know, Sherman Williams. That wasn't it. I walk into the cell and there's the guy I saw 27 and a half years before. And so you give me five minutes. We don't need a trial. And I stuck out my hand to him. I said, Sherman, my name's Reverend Ed Needham. And I'm here to tell you that God loves you. And I love you. And he forgives you and I forgive you. And if there's anything I can ever do in your life, to make your life better, please allow me to do that. Because I didn't want him to own me anymore. And he hadn't for a long time. And he looked into my eyes and he got that I wasn't some con artist. I wasn't trying to run him. I wasn't some goody two-shoes. I was telling him it's time for this to heal. It's time after 27 and a half years for something good to come out of this. And the oddest thing happened. We became friends. We talked for two and a half hours. When we were done talking, the attorney, the state's attorney general was there. The warden was there. His attorneys were there. And the guards were there. And we all said the Lord's Prayer. And we all cried together. Because an incredible healing had taken place. Now, how'd that happen? Did I learn that in seminary? I learned that in alcoholic synopsis. They said, Eddie, if you've got a problem with somebody, you go and you talk to them about it. And when something needs to be done, you go talk to them face to face. And you stand up straight and you be a good member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Because you might be the only example they ever see. And the oddest thing happened. Sherman and I became close. And I went to the county attorney. And I said, let him plead the second degree murder. That way he'll get out in two or three years. And he said, I had the guy's condom in him. I said, it can't be condom. He don't know I'm here. I'm here because I want to be here. I was praying. And God said, go help your brother. Because you want to know something about Sherman? The only difference between him and I is the right situation, the right amount of chemicals. That's about it. It's the only difference between Sherman and I. And I went down there. And he listened to me. And he said, OK, Ed. I'll let him plead the second degree murder. And two and a half years later, I got a call from the corrections facilities, Iowa State Correctional Facility. And they said, Reverend Mutum, we're going to release Sherman at 8 o'clock in the morning at Fort Madison. And I said, OK. I'm going to take him to the state penitentiary. We want you to come pick him up. We will only entrust him to you. And you need to take him to the halfway house. Please have nobody else there. Only an AA. Can the son of the murder victim be the only one they trust? Because there was other family members, not my family members. Well, my kids hated me for this for a number of years. That's why they didn't talk to me for about four. Here's how hate kills. My kids didn't talk to me for four years because I forgave the guys who killed their grandfather, one they had never even met. They didn't even know him. Look at what we do to our children. Look at what we do to our children. And I remember taking Sherman to a restaurant after we got out of prison. And we walked into this place. And I said, now, when you go in, they're going to ask you a lot of questions. They're not trying to hassle you. They just need to get basic information. He said, what do you mean? I said, well, you'll see. We went in. The interrogation began. How do you like your eggs? What kind of toast? You know, what do you mean? You know, for 20, for 30 years at that time, Sherman's been going, hmm. And I said, they're going to ask you a lot of questions. Just answer them. She's not trying to hassle you. And he came out and said, man, those were a lot of questions. I said, yeah, they were. And then I couldn't think about it. I couldn't help but think about it in support of what I woke up to. And I looked out at my window. And Sherman stopped. We walked out of the restaurant. And there was a pond right over here. And he stopped. And he said, Reverend Mutum, would it be OK if I just looked at this pond for a minute? And I said, sure. And it dawned on me, for 30 years, he had never been able to stop and take an abeal. For 30 years. What was he guilty of? Sherman got muscled into coming along. The two leaders, the two gang members scared him to death. And he was the lookout when the shooting start, he ran. And he served 30 years for it. How many ponds are we missing? How many abuse are we missing in life? He taught me so much. They started muscling him down there at the halfway house. And one thing about a lifer, you start giving them crap, they give you crap right back. So they violated his parole. And he went back for a year and a half. And he called me up a year and a half later and said, Eddie, he said, Reverend Eddie, you're going to be a cop. He said, I'm going to be a cop. He said, I'm going to be a cop. He said, I'm going to be a cop. He said, I'm going to be a cop. He said, I'm going to be a cop. He said, I don't know if you'd want to help me or not. We'd been in contact a little bit. And I said, well, you can still come live with me. I said, I meant that. That wasn't conditional. I believe in you. I think you can do this. So he came and lived with me. I was able to buy him some clothes. And I was able to get him a little apartment. I was able to get him set up. People said, how can you do that? I said, AA did it for me. I wouldn't have a dime and you'd pick up my meal. You knew I was hungry, so you didn't invite me over for dinner with your family. I said, why? How dare I give my friend any less than what you've given me? And I really believe the way you treat the least in your life is the most important. And Sherman didn't become a least in my life anymore. He and I had a good friendship for a while. And then he met a little blonde girl. And he got himself a new higher power. And I haven't seen him since. And he doesn't owe me a thing. Not a thing does he owe me. What I hope is he passes on exactly what I've tried to pass on to you. Forgiveness is very important. It's a powerful thing. And it can heal a lot of lives.