Step Eleven Is Where Alcoholics Skimp — We Do the Work Then Turn Away Before the Reward — Kevin H. and Mike P.

My name is Kelly and I'm an alcoholic. Mark, you mentioned you're doing a four-step annually. Could you elaborate on that? And Kevin, what's your experience with that? Thank you. Well, I've only done... I did a fourth and fifth step when I was newly sober in rehab. Then I did another one in my first year. And then I didn't do one other than a periodic ten-step for 20 years. And it was just last year, actually earlier this year, that I undertook to do all the steps again. I was living in step 10. It was just this year that I undertook. And basically I was driven to it by the de-devilment that I read on page 52. Just like I was driven to the program by the misery of active alcoholism, I was driven back to the steps by the misery I found myself in. Just several months ago. A sponsee suggested that we go through the steps together. So I only did my third, fourth, and fifth step two or three months ago. I just hope to make it an annual thing. I shouldn't say I hope to. I intend to. Because it was so... The word is salvific for me. My circumstances have not changed. But my attitude... You know, I've heard it said, the problem isn't the problem. The problem is my attitude towards the problem. The problem isn't the problem. The problem is my attitude towards the problem. My problems haven't changed, but my attitude towards them has changed dramatically. So, those are the circumstances under which I recently did a fourth and fifth step. And it was so wonderful, I certainly intend to keep doing it. Thank you. I have done a number of fourth and fifth steps. I have done a number of fourth and fifth steps. So let me tell you the reality of alcohol and the reality of spirit. I have done a number of fourth and fifth steps. So let me tell you the reality of alcohol and the reality of spirit. No matter how drunk I got yesterday, I woke up sober. No matter how drunk I got yesterday, I woke up sober. No matter how much spirituality I felt when I was with the Dalai Lama, when I was doing this, when I was doing that, I wake up an atheist who believes in nothing, that I was spit out in a cold, heartless universe, and that the God is laughing — if there even is a God. I've got to start over again. And if this work makes me feel better and whole and growing, I have to keep doing. I had to apply alcohol consistently, steadily, to keep drunk. I have to apply spiritual techniques, you know, but I'm lazy. I don't understand why I couldn't just do it once. I smoke 20 Camel cigarettes when I'm smoking them every day. Why don't I meditate 20 times? Not that important. Ruining my lungs is important. I'm a screwed up alcoholic. If it's working for you, work it some more. Why not? And as Mike said, the great segue into the fifth step. I know there was another hand. What we're after in the fifth step is a new attitude to see things differently. My first sponsor, Sparky, God rest his soul, his favorite AA quote. Maybe you don't have it here. If not, please make it part of Denmark AA. I see things differently. And it doesn't mean a big move. It's just to be a little move to see things differently. And that's freedom. Can we make this the last question, please? Thank you. You often hear about keeping the trousers on for a year. Why is that and where does it come from? What did he say? I think I just broke the mic, so if I could get technical assistance. Yeah, we say that. I'll tell you what I would say to a sponsor of mine. Until you have done a fourth step, looking at sex relations and creating an ideal, you're probably just going to create more harm and hurt. You know, if you have done the work, and have done some amends, so you realize why you don't want to do this, it would make you a whole person to enjoy your sexuality. As far as with newcomers, I think the newcomer may be less hurt than the person with time because we risk more. Yeah. I think we should not interfere with someone else's process of becoming, becoming sober, becoming a person, growing. It's very hard. I was lucky I was living with someone so I didn't face that, you know. I just think to interfere with another person's spiritual discovery and growth process may be the only real sin. I should... And sometimes the sex is not about the sex. It's about escape from reality, which I cannot handle. So if I won't be able to have alcohol and drugs, let me have sex and relationships that distract me from the now. That's... But there is no rule in the book. You know, I just think if we're in a position where we do less harm, that's always got to be better if I've done some work on it. My advice is fairly practical on this, and I don't know about trousers. I encourage people to stay out of relationships in their first year, or at least until they've worked a fourth, or fifth step. Because I think that until we begin to recover ourselves spiritually, mentally, and physically, we're not capable of sound relationships. We'll lapse right back into what we call in treatment center jargon the codependent relationship, the screwed-up relationship that's always got me in trouble. So I don't necessarily discourage, to be perfectly blunt, casual sex, but I only sponsor men. I don't know whether men are... I don't need to make a sexist statement, but it's possible, or at least the men that I sponsor are more capable of casual sex than some women, but if women are capable of casual sex, that's fine. I don't sponsor women, so I don't know. And how women handle that issue, I don't know. But that's my advice to sponsees. Not that they necessarily stay away from sexual activity, but that they try to stay out of relationships, or sexual activity that turns into a relationship. And that's the advice that I give my sponsees. We're going to go to five, because we don't want this to go on forever. Actually, I do want it to go on forever, but you may want to leave and have a life. So I said, the book says... I'll tell you how I work with a sponsee. So I've given them the four columns. I've talked about the peers. I've talked about that paragraph which lays out sex. We get together, and I will say, what are we here for? And ask them, what do they think? What do they think the fifth step is about? And have them tell me what they think it is about. Then we will read the first four pages of chapter six, and the book tells me I'm trying to get a new attitude, a new relationship with my Creator, and discover the obstacles. I was raised very devout Roman Catholic, where everything is a sin. AA does not have sins. It has obstacles that are in the way of a relationship. It's so freeing. I'm not a sinner. It's just something that holds back the power. The next, the best reason for the fifth step, if I skip this, I may not overcome drinking. And I would add a subtle distinction on that. It is possible to never drink again, but be living in an inner chaos, turmoil, pain, which is not overcoming drinking. It's living in the shadow of it. That you never drink again, but you have a lousy, empty life. That is to still be under drinking. So I think when the book was written, they meant drink again, and it certainly is a risk. I would ask the person to... This other line I think is useful. When I don't tell on myself, it says I'm under constant fear and tension. It's amazing how I will hold a lie. Mike is my sponsor. I have withheld from him... Mike's not been hurt. It's ruined my ability to have a relationship with him. It's ruined my ability for him to hurt me, to help me, because I fear he's going to hurt me and judge me. This is why five is important. It lets me get free. This is a promise from the big book, by the way. That if I'm not entirely honest, my life will be shorter. I will shorten my life. I could develop some cancer or something, or maybe live a long, miserable life hiding from the truth, hiding from you, hiding from discovery. And then what I do is ask the man to read, but before he starts, I say one thing to him. If, in looking down at these pages, you discover there's something there that you're afraid to tell me, don't lie to me by withholding. I give you permission not to read it to me, but do find someone as quickly as you can who you can tell it to. You know, sometimes sexual activity that people are uncomfortable with, theft, crimes of violence, whatever it is, because two times in my first two fifths deaths, I lied to the people who were receiving the fifths, and nothing happened. So I invite the men who I'm taking through, don't lie to me, don't tell me if you're uncomfortable, but find someone so you can have that disclosure. And then I just ask them to read and try to just point out what are the defects, and, you know, usually what is the pattern. And that's five. Before I offer my thoughts on step five, I'd like to embarrass someone else in the room. Last night I embarrassed our good friend Einar, our host, and now I'd like to embarrass his lovely wife, Runa, and ask you to give our hostess a round of applause. She's in the back of the room there. Her name is Runa. Now that's genuine gratitude, not that Americans will go to any lengths not to pay for a hotel room overseas. Her name in Icelandic is Tigrun. She has been a most gracious hostess, and we appreciate the love that she has extended to us, and we return it in stays. So thank you, Runa. In terms of step five, I would say that the gift of step five for me was unburdening. I'll cut to the chase on this. I had some very thick secrets, and to be able to share those secrets with a good friend who did not recoil in horror, but who smiled and said, I've done worse, was such a comfort to me to get out my secrets. There's a lot to step five, and I'm going to limit myself to that. That emotional connection that I felt when I did a step five, got out my thicker secrets, and then went with a good friend, not the person I'd given my first step to, and we had lunch in a glass restaurant on a sparkling November day in Minneapolis, Minnesota. That was as close as I've ever felt, as I felt up until that point in my life, as close as I ever felt to God. And one of the secrets, the gift of the fifth step, is that one of the secrets that was driving me crazy, I will tell you now. When my wife came out for my family week, she told me on the phone in rehab, we were speaking on the phone before she came out, she told me she was going to be confronting me with this. And I went absolutely berserk on the phone, please don't bring this up, please, if you do, I'll divorce you, I'll never, I'll drink again, I won't go, I'll leave this rehab that moment, I'll get up and walk out, you know, on and on and on and on. And what it was was, the secret, the secret. I'm so detached from it now, but I was so fearful with respect to it now, the secret was not so bad, I suppose. Insane. But I was drinking at home instead of being at work one day, and my boss called up, not to check on me, but to find out where a piece of work stood that we were working on together. He assumed I was sick, he didn't think I was at home drinking, watching Ben-Hur on the video. And seeing myself win that chariot race for the 99th time, if those of you who know the film, you know, the fantasy escapism at 10 a.m., he called up and said, how you doing? And I panicked completely, this whole scenario began to play out in my head as to why he was calling. He was calling to find out how I was doing, to find out where this thing was we were working on, where in my office. So I blurted out to him, I just been to the doctor and he diagnosed me with terminal leukemia. There was a wrinkle. I didn't die. Six months, six weeks went by, two months, three months. No change, no physical change, no hair falling out, no complications from leukemia. So I had to go see him and make amends. And that was the secret that was driving me insane before my wife confronted me with it in family. And she didn't. She didn't confront me with it. She was nice. But it continued to drive me insane until I came out in my fifth step. And it has lost all power over me. And now it's a funny story. And that's the gift of the fifth step. Before we go to questions, we'll do questions in a break. We'll do questions. As soon as we're done with that, we'll take a break. I want to add one thing. When someone does a fifth step with me, I ask them, please call me tomorrow. Because it's been my experience. You know, like in surgery, you have the surgery and the next day you feel so much worse. Someone can sit and tell many deep things, dark things, things they've held back. And the next day they can feel suicidal, deeply disconnected. So I ask, please touch base. Let me know how you are. There are very lovely promises that come up with the fifth step. And sometimes those take time to unfold. And so they can feel like, I didn't get there. So I think we have to be very careful in a post-surgical way when someone has revealed such deep things and cherish them and reward them. I ask all of my spontees, whenever they do step work, to announce it at free meetings for two reasons. A, so that they can be out there and let the world know they're doing work. And B, so when this man starts to change, people don't say, oh, he has a new lover or he's got a better job or he's got a medication. They'll say, is it possible that he is happier because he is working the steps? Questions? Wait for the mic. Hello. I wonder, I'm very distracted. Do ones have to write the four steps to put it out in front of a... I'm in my four step and I'm kind of stuck because I cannot read and write properly, you know. So I wonder if I can just tell this, my keepsake to my sponsor or do I have to write it? Because it's very difficult for me. Thank you. I think if you cannot write, then you speak as honestly as you can. I think your willingness to do it. For those who have the literacy gifts, they can write. But if you cannot, your sincere desire to tell these things is what matters. What about denial? We are talking about like peeling an onion in some groups in Denmark, that you can be as honest as you can. So what about denial? Can you feel that you are being very honest and suddenly two years are going by and you say to yourself, oh, when I was doing that six step at that time, I wasn't being honest, but I thought I was. Is that a hard word? Very good question. That's why it says, admit it to God, to ourselves, and to another human being. Because there's the opportunity for interaction in a fifth step. And the person that you're giving the fifth step to can say, are you sure it's that? Maybe it's this. Are you sure there's not more to that story? Maybe it's this. I can identify with this. But what about this? And that is helpful and useful. Also, I think that's the beauty of something that I've come to rather late in sobriety, the beauty of doing these on an annual basis or at least often, is that it does give us an opportunity to do these things over and over and over again and achieve new levels of honesty and perspective that make subsequent fourth and fifth steps that much more productive. I would add to that, I think as we grow and deepen in understanding, it's entirely possible that I see something different, see it a different way, see, ah, it was more than I thought. And also the opposite. Sometimes to see this is so small, you know, that it's not that big a deal. I think it's the willingness to do what we have to do. You know how shrapnel, you know the word shrapnel from a wound in the war? In shrapnel wounds, sometimes over years, the pieces of metal come up to the surface. I think as we heal more, we can handle more. And then we just do what we have to do to make it right. I think it's a beautiful demonstration of someone growing further. And it doesn't mean I held back, that's all I could see at the moment. My name is Nathan, I'm an alcoholic. Hello. Thanks for coming here and sharing your experience, sharing some hope. The thing I don't understand is this, I mean, I'm only a newcomer with three and a flush years, and this about, this about doing a new fourth step, a new fifth step. Because the way I read the tenth step is that you do four through nine over and over again on a daily basis. And the way I see the deal, I dealt with my past in my first fourth step, and it's like the garden that hadn't been touched for 29 years. But I still have to then, the shit can come back some of it, and then I have to deal with when it comes back. But I don't have to, I mean, I dealt with the past then, and whatever is keeping me from God today is what I have to remove. So I'm puzzled about this doing a new fourth step, a new fifth step. Because my past is, that was, I dealt with it back then, and of course it looks different today, because I've grown. And so... Thank you, that's an excellent question. Here's my thoughts on that. I thought that way too for 15 years, and it just was very helpful to do another fourth and fifth step, but I did it by the book. I talked about my current resentments, my current fears, my current harms on others, what's preying on my mind now. I didn't go back to before I quit drinking, or the first 10 years of my drinking, if it wasn't something that was bothering me now. I talked about the now. But the difference was, and this was typical of me in my 10 step inventories, I didn't do it necessarily in a formal setting with another human being. And that was the beauty of the fifth step exercise, to interact with another person. That's what I needed to do. So whether you call it a more formal 10 step, or another fifth step, it doesn't matter to me. I just had to add that component of another human being. That's what was useful to me for interaction. But I was only looking at my current resentments, my current fears, not stuff from the past. A very wise counselor said to me when I was in rehab, and this is a little blunt, but he said, in terms of going back over stuff from your fourth and fifth step, after you've done, over your fourth step, after you've taken a fifth step, he said, only a dog eats its own promise. I'm not, it's something I've done. I'm not saying it's something someone else has to do. And if one is feeling peace, and it's working, then I don't think there's a need to change. It's just something I've done. But I lead big book studies, home-based big book studies, and since everyone's doing it, I promise to do some too. So that's partly just to be square with them because I'm asking them to do this work, and I do it. But the book does not say so. There could be a reason that comes up later that needs you to do it, but I certainly, we're not here to make you feel awkward about that. Or I am not. I would say, just take a look at those bedevilments on page 52. If you're playing, then have at it. The solution's right in the book. If you're not, more power to you. I wish I had what you had. So let me very quickly and simply, with step six, if I have figured out the defects, and this is really the hard part, do I see that my continuing to be angry, prideful, lustful, is what ruins my life? And to sit with the fact that as long as I keep seeing that way, I will keep getting the same type of unhappiness. And then the question is, just am I ready to have a good life? Very simply, the six steps it asks, am I ready to see that this way doesn't work? I'll try another way. And that is it. It's like someone, a medical student who hears of a disease and reads about it in a textbook. The fifth step should put me so in touch with the pain of the way that I live, it's like the medical student now sitting at the bed of a woman who is dying of ovarian cancer and is screaming and crying. Now I've really encountered that within me which ruins me, ruins my life, makes it no fun. And then the question is just, Kevin, are you ready to be happy or do you want to keep doing it your way? And if I'm truly ready, we'll get to the next step when life is done. Let me make just a point of order. Why don't we have questions to try to move this thing along and finish 515, I guess there are caterers here serving dinner or AA's hard at work downstairs. We really have to stop at 515. Why don't we have questions after step seven and then again after step nine rather than six, seven, eight, and nine. And we'll kind of see where we are then in terms of schedule. And maybe we could have questions after steps 10, 11, and 12 or maybe we'll again defer until the end of 12 for those three steps. So we'll, that's just my suggestion. So let us do steps six and seven. Kevin, press something. Let's do steps six and seven now and then we'll have some questions. I would just, in terms of step six, I would say simply this. To me, step six is like a winter's day. What do I mean by that? In the wintertime, you see a tree without the leaves. We see the branches. We see the trunk and the branches. And that to me is what step six was like. In step five, I shook that tree and knocked all the leaves off. The leaves were the behaviors. The leaves were the behaviors. The bad things I did, the secrets that I had to unburden myself of. But in step six, I now say, the leaves are gone and I look at the tree and what needs to be put where are the dead branches that lead nowhere? Where is, where am I with lust, intolerance, selfishness, dishonesty? Where am I with those characters, or the seven deadly sins, if you will, pride, anger, gluttony, greed, lust, envy, and sloth? These are useful tools. They're not religious tools. They're useful analytical tools. And I could, the behaviors now, I let go of. But I had to look at that tree, good and bad, character attributes as well as character defects, and see which ones needed to go. And that's, that's what step six is all about. We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. The first thing I had to do was to see what those characters were and let go of those behaviors. So that's what I got, that was the gift of step six for me, the gift of clarity, to see myself, to get rid of the clutter of all those behaviors, and look at the branch and the trunk and the trees, and to see myself as I really was, good and bad. So that was step, and then the question is, what to do with the bad, and that's where step seven comes in, but we'll get to that in just a minute. Kevin, I'll turn back to you to step seven. So if I have, my great fear in the fifth step is that the person won't get the punchlines or the joke, do you know what I mean when I say that, that I tell the joke and they don't know, they'll laugh, that they read it and don't understand that the fourth column is the problem. But I keep thinking, no, no, no, you don't understand, it's my wife. No, Kevin, it's your attitudes, it's these defects. If I truly understand and accept that as long as I'm lustful, intolerant, judgmental, harsh, angry, I will have an unhappy relationship and then when I'm ready, this is true AA, I can't control my defects any more than I can control my drinking. A man who was very important in my AA, Bob Dillheimer, died last year and Bob used to say, I can no more control a shot of anger, a shot of pride, a shot of lust, a shot of resentment than I can control a shot of vodka, a shot of scotch, a shot of heroin. So, seven is just, please, God, whatever you are, whoever you are, help me, take this away and then try to act the opposite. When I'm angry, try to act kindly. When I'm lustful, try to act with a purity. When I'm in fear, try to act with faith. But I must accept the fact that I'm angry and I'm angry and I'm angry and I'm angry and I'm angry and I'm angry and I'm angry and I'm angry and I have to accept that I can not make these things go away by understanding, analyzing or even wishing. I have to, with total vulnerability, please take this because as long as I have it, my life will be horrible. But I enjoy my defects, ladies and gentlemen, I enjoy my lust, I enjoy my anger, I enjoy pounding the table, I enjoy judging you, talking about you. The same as I enjoy drinking, I have to understand it's life or death and that I can't give myself immediately what I look for and not completely through freedom and ask sincerely. And then something miraculous happens. But as one of my pastors said, Kevin, if the defect is listed, it is only listed in the moment you ask. It's like a beard. It grows back the next day or the next minute, then you ask again. Can you get us to the, okay, good. So the gift I was given in Step 6 was the gift of clarity, to see myself as I am. And Step 6 and 7 kind of reminds me of Steps 1 and 2. Step 1, I am desperate. Step 2, there is hope. Step 6, I am defective. Step 7, there is a solution. I'm always suspicious when I hear people say, I've got this character defect and I'm working on it. Just like I'm suspicious that when I hear sponsees say, you know, I relapsed because I just didn't exercise enough willpower. I hear that from sponsees. Willpower has nothing to do with it. My working on my character defects have nothing to do with it. I stand in awe of my character defects as I stand in awe of alcoholism and drug addiction. And I get on my knees. And pray to God for relief from my addictions. And I get on my knees and pray to God for relief from my character defects. I don't work on them. I certainly, my goal is to refrain from them and to substitute good behavior for bad. But my mechanism is not an exercise in willpower. It is to pray to God for help and guidance whenever I feel those defects rearing their ugly head. And that's, that's, that's what works for me. Before we proceed to questions on texts six and seven, why don't we say this text seven prayer together. Again, I believe it's in English on the left and in Danish on the right. And we'll begin. My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect that is in me, every single defect that I have in me. I am willing, I am willing that if you can lift me up and remove from me, of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength as I go out from here to do your bidding. Amen. And as the book says, we are then completed, step seven. There's a very interesting thing about step seven. I don't know what's good in me and I don't know what's bad in me. I once at an AMED shared that I had been seeing with my sister who infuriated me so much for the whole week that I wanted to put my seat pole through her stomach and push her out of the chair lift into a chasm. A man approached me after the meeting to ask me to sponsor him and I thought he recognized the spiritual energy in me. What he said was, I've never met anyone as angry and as ugly as you but myself. I think you could help me. Questions? In the book, when I'm an alcoholic, as I see the seven steps, it says that you will remove my character defects and my experience is that all my defects are still here. I just act different on the same situation. I don't know if it's a question or just a statement that... I don't feel my character defects getting... get moved from me. I just have this experience that they are still there and when I'm down, they are like small animals. I'm here. And if I'm up and close to my higher power, I don't use them the same way. I have a new way of acting out. Thank you for that comment. It's right on. Let me just read from Appendix 2, page 183. The terms spiritual experience and spiritual awakening are used many times in this book, which upon careful reading shows that the personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism has manifested itself among us in many different forms. Personality change sufficient to bring about recovery from alcoholism. Not perfect, sufficient. So, you're right on the money. Thank you. My name is Sveit. I'm an alcoholic. You said that we don't know what's good and what's bad in us, and I compliment you for that. I thought that the relief after Step 5 was actually tremendous. But there's always a residue left. The residue becomes smaller, and smaller, and smaller. For some reason, I've reached the point now that I can't breathe. It's a little bit of a triggers, I guess. I mean, it's a nervous reaction. I know what you're going through. But I'm thoroughly I cannot see anything more. I don't know what is good and what is bad, and I try to redo set 3, I try to redo set 4. What does one do in this situation? Thank you. I think that crisis in life raises the issue that I must deal with. The pain of living wakes me up to something I don't want to see. And there are times when things are okay. Like the woman said, that you grow and see something else. And then I discover something that I thought was okay is no longer okay, and the pain, the desperation, the hurt makes me so sick to death, I beg for relief. Sometimes good enough is good enough, and then sometimes I see this can no longer go on, please help me. And I cycle in that way, up and down. I don't know if that answers you. That's what I have to say. Hi, my name is . I don't know if you have the same experience as I and some other guys have been talking to. First time I went through set, I sort of skated through 6 and 7, and my responsibilities didn't help me a lot about that. But later, by listening to speakers like you guys, I learned that actually God can use my character defects. And I don't get to choose. I don't get to choose what character defects He takes away. In the prayer I ask that He remove those that stand in the way of my usefulness to others. And my understanding of that is that today, if you can use my pride, so I can do something to look good, but it helps you, just like doing service here. I like to do service here, and I also like it to you other people to see how good I am. By that, it's my pride. My higher power is to help you. My higher power is to help you from my pride to do service. So, in that way, is that your experience, too, that only what God needs to remove is removed and the rest is there if He needs it to be there? I don't know if you have the same experience. That is the mystery of the 12th step that we'll get to. I help me by helping you. And that's why they call it a mystery. For many years, I worked with a spiritual teacher. Her name was Judy Davidson. And Judy said, The most sincere prayer of all is, I don't know. And then shut up and let life happen. My name is Sian. I have a question regarding the time for steps 6 and 7. It says in the book on page 75 that returning home, we find a place where we can be quiet for an hour, carefully reviewing what we have done. Can you tell me your experience on what kind of length period is it good to use on going through steps 6 and 7? I believe the book says go home and do this. But I believe the man who taught me A.A. Keith, God rest his soul, said, You know how you work 6 and 7? You get busy with 8 and 9. Because when I identify the people I've cursed, I'm going to identify the defect that led me to do it. So before I go to see him, I'm going to have to really get sick of what I did and what I was. And that reinforces it. As Sanchi says, it comes down to the same old 6 and 7. Day in, day out, minute by minute. So I think I formally ask going home. But I really live it as the days go by. And I take more action. The book goes on to say, After this one hour reflection, if we answer to our satisfaction, we then look at step 6. And my experience with step 6 and 7 is that it's something that I do, that I did rather, I don't want to say quickly in the sense of briskly, you know, minimizing its significance. But it's something that I proceeded through rather quickly. And I encourage my sponsees to do so. We talk about step 6 and 7, but for me it's a matter of weeks, not months. And I would say after a fifth step, I'm probably looking to see an eight-step list within a month, I would say. If that helps. Oh, we're going to talk a little bit about step 8 now. Step 8 and 9. Kevin, if you want to put up the text, that would be helpful. Okay? The gift for me in step 7 was a gift of surrender. Step 6 was clarity. Step 7 was surrender. When I surrendered my personality, my defective and good personality, to God as I understood Him for help. Step 8 now, I start, I begin the process of concluding the housekeeping part of the program, the house cleaning part of the program. That's 4 through 9. I'm into the last leg of the journey. But look at how significant these steps are to Bill when he wrote the steps and to the first 100 founders when they wrote the steps. Really divided into four parts. Made a list of those we had harmed except when the do-so would injure them. Made a list of all the persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. When I make that list, that's step 8A. Step 8D, I have to then become willing to make amends to them all. Step 9A, I have to make direct amends. Step 9D, except when the do-so would injure them or others. I guess you really do 9D before you do 9A, don't you? You have to figure out who you don't make amends to before you go about making your amends. But you see how significant those steps are. Steps 8 and 9. As hard as it was for me to admit my bad behaviors and my secrets to a confessor, if you will, in step 5, it might have been even harder. Now, the confessor was somebody that I had selected. Somebody that I felt entirely comfortable with. Somebody in whom I reposed a great deal of trust. Now, in some cases, in step 9, I was going to meet the enemy. People who had resentments against me as big as the resentments I had against them. And I really got bollocks up. And I'm going to share my experience with you on step 8 and 9, so that perhaps it won't happen to you. I made that list, and it was about 50 people long. And then... But I did not become willing to make amends to them all. I became willing to make amends to the first five. And the first five, I'll give you a little pat on the back, were the hardest amends I had to make. So at least I didn't put the easiest ones at the top. I put the hardest ones at the top. And I'll tell you what they were. They were people... As I indicated last night when I spoke, I was a pretty good athlete as a kid. But I wasn't... Alcohol took some of that away from me. I wasn't as good as I could have been, or wasn't as good as I wanted to be. No matter. I'll just tell some lies. So I made up some stuff about my athletic accomplishments. And the hardest amends for me to make was to... I shouldn't say I made friendships on the basis of those lies, but some of the friends I had attached significance to those lies. And continued to do so 17 years later when I was sobering up. And for me to go to those people and have them... You know, it's going back to that kid I spoke about last night who looked at me and said, you cheated. And you used my papers to cheat and graduate from this college. And you disappoint me because I thought you were a pretty good guy. I never wanted to see anybody look at me like that again. And so my knees were knocking. My first such amends was in a New York City office building. And for those of you who've been to New York City, you know that in the two block walk that I went from the train station I was living in the country at the time to the office where I had to make the amends, I walked past ten bars. And each one of them beckoned to me. You know, come in here. Here is the solution. You can forget about that puke and have a couple of drinks and forget about this amends process. Those were the hardest amends I had to make. But I made them. And I got through them. And you know what? They were pretty well received. But the problem was I was so exhausted emotionally from that effort that I forgot about the other 45. My mom died. My sister committed suicide. There were some bad things that happened to me in the next 12, 18 months. No doubt about it. But I stopped making my amends. And you know what? I wasn't halfway through this process as it says in the promises. Before we were halfway. I was about, well, 5 over 50. Whatever that is. You know, I was 10% into this process. And the promises weren't coming true for me. And I was restless, irritable, and discontented. And that's my experience with Step 8. Was that I had unfinished business. And I just sat on it for about a year and a half and didn't discover my problem until the beginning of my third year of sobriety. And I'll talk a little bit about Step 9 in a few minutes after Kevin finishes with Step 8. If you were working with me I would ask you because the book says clearly we have the resentment list. We created it when we wrote the fourth step. If I resented you I harmed you. Now that may be hard to buy into but and the book says very clearly for the night that we go to people towards whom we had ill feeling. So my fourth step is the beginning of my resentment list. And I add to it the people I dislike, hated. You were being sponsored by me. I would ask you to get do one name at a time. We do four columns. The name of the person. Specifically what you did. What defects led you to do it. And then I ask you to write out three sentences of what you will say to that person and what the amend I mean if it's a payback how much you're going to pay them or what kind of schedule which brings 6 and 7 back in. We review it and that's what I do with 8. There's a line we have up it says we would go to any length for victory over alcohol. Two pages later Ah, I'm not getting it. So I'll read it to you. Two pages later and this is on page 79 it says reminding ourselves that we decided to go to any length to find the spiritual experience. Victory over alcohol is the spiritual experience. That is what heals. It heals me. Victory over alcohol victory over whatever it is that haunts you ruins your life takes your joy away. I must I do it through this work. A few people approached me on the break. Let me tell you my take. Most people in AA fake spiritual orgasms. They're just not getting it but they act like it. And how can you tell? Because they're when I'm faking it I'm still in fear. I'm still in self. I'm still in doubt. I'm not enjoying life. How do I get to that? Going back to Soren Kierkegaard the leap of faith this decision to turn my will and my life over comes really when you hear this sound me knocking on your door to say I'm Kevin Heaney I'm here about the harm I've done to you. We get to 9 in a second. Or should I go in? So they've written out this we have talked about it and then I ask them to go to the person knock on the door and the line up there says we don't shy away from God if it won't upset the person. But I want the person to know why I'm here. I admit I'm an alcoholic. If it's not going to upset them I say I'm here because a spiritual program calls for it but I don't act like I'm here making amends to you so I can be well. I mean that's just an insult isn't it? I really still don't give a shit about you but in order for me to grow spiritually I've got to do this. I mean that's just more injury. But how do you experience a higher power? By putting yourself by putting myself at risk and doing it and coming out and finding out that I survived it that the strength was there the grace was there I was covered and by doing this over and over there is one thing that I do not believe my name does not belong on the list this whole process is for me to heal me to free me to build me to strengthen me I don't put my name there because this whole thing is about healing me and if I'm doing this I believe I will be transformed and every time I take a risk I am rewarded going back to my thing about the contract that a higher power rewards all actions I'm punished in action I punish myself for not taking the action like Mike said that's all I have on mine Mike? The gift of Step 8 for me was the gift of reality believe it or not when I was drinking I used to fantasize and I don't know how many of you can identify with me if you can you are real alcoholics I used to think tomorrow I'm going to wake up and I'm going to start my life over the things that have happened to me so far that I don't like and that I obsess about the people I've harmed and the bad things I've done they won't have occurred I'm going to start my life over and don't ask me what I was thinking I wasn't thinking it was insane but that's what I used to think and Step 8 brought me to a point of reality here's what I can do about the past I can make amends and that's all I can do the stuff happens so my experience was that after those promises weren't coming true because I hadn't become willing to make amends to them all I talked to my sponsor and he said you've got 45 amends to do and so I set about doing them one at a time one per week I did the first thing every Monday morning and 52 weeks in a year about a year later I finished and I can only tell you this that when I finish Step 9 forget promises forget and I really identified with what the fellow who's making coffee in the back of the room was talking about it was just a point of pride I knew that I had worked the steps of Alcoholics Anonymous the housecleaning steps to the best of my ability and it was the proudest day of my life and I hung up the phone after making that last nice step of amends and I knew that my housecleaning steps were over and that I could now live in the present Steps 10 through 12 and Steps 1 through 3 and that I was a card-carrying member of Alcoholics Anonymous and I'd earned my seat in the rooms and no more was did anybody say well you haven't done this you haven't done that I'd done it all and I'd gotten burned and it hurt that was the proudest day of my life so let's start to open it up to questions Patrick, here's one thing there's a line in the 9th step, 8th step section where it says that we are sorry for what we have done God willing it will not be repeated I add that line and I ask my sponsees because I can't guarantee you I won't drink I can't guarantee you I won't become angry the best I can say is I'm sorry for what I have done and God willing the book says that we don't go scraping I'm humble before my higher power I'm not humiliated and I tell my sponsees you never make amends over dinner you do it at a coffee shop or a counter so that if it gets ugly you can leave I also tell my sponsees you hurt them they're entitled to make you eat one spoonful of shit but past that you leave because this is not about masochism you know people are entitled to be hurt and I think I need to hear that but not to the point that it becomes abusive and I think this doing this just transforms me makes me something I don't want to be what I'm glad I can't get to become Yes, that's eight and nine questions and if we could limit ourselves to a couple of three, four minutes so we can get back on schedule Christina, I'm an alcoholic Hi Hi How do you define make amends? Because in the Danish version of the book it says that we apologize I don't find that word in the English version The word amend and this comes from the Friday Night Men's Chef group those of you who are men and would ever get to New York call me so I can get you to go to the group We say over and over again the word amend in English means to change, improve or make better I said I'm sorry thousands of times as a drunk Nobody wanted to hear it They wanted to see change So I believe amend our checkbook If I ruined your Ming vase I should be replacing it I should not be doing it again So I believe it is material as well as emotional as well as spiritual It's more than just the words In fact, I think the hardest amends are to the people we live with our family the living amends A very dramatic I'm sorry is cute But the hardest thing is to have dinner with them every day or holidays and still behave even if they're not behaving That's the living amend that really says something Alcoholics I'm in my eighth step and could you just say a few words about putting myself on the list? If I do this work I am doing the most magnificent thing for me I am expanding my consciousness I am liberating myself I am lifting myself up I will be healed by doing the work So I don't have to put my name there because I get an incredible benefit It's like what I would plan for myself is so small compared to what this would give me That has been my experience But if that's what you wish to do then do that I'm just a slob from New York who will be leaving tomorrow Are we committed to 5.15 on the dot? Or can we stretch a little bit? 5.20 Alright Then I think we better cut the questions short here on steps 8 and 9 And I'm afraid that Kevin and I are going to have to discuss steps 10, 11, and 12 over the next 15 minutes And so 5.15 that means about a couple of minutes each, Kevin Just back and forth steps 10, 11, and 12 If that takes us to 5.15 then we'll have five minutes left for questions I'm sorry that it has to be that way but I'm afraid it has to be that way We have dinner to get to Before I touch on 10 perhaps some of you have people who you cannot reach people who have died I believe that the universe, the cosmos if I open my heart and make the amends the grave is no obstacle I believe that we can be whole with everyone if I truly mean it and I can be free and be right with them On the tenth step having cleaned myself I wish to stay clean having made myself having been made whole and so basically as the gentleman said the tenth step is really steps 1 through 9 lived on a daily basis A sponsor of mine taught me a very wonderful method for doing a tenth step which if you're interested see me I'll give you my email and I'll send it to you but it's not in the big book so I will not insult the book by quoting something that's not in the book when I do it I live very well in that day there's a line in the text that says tenth step is when we have recovered recovered is a daily balancing act contingent upon my spiritual condition you want to know if you've recovered the big book will tell you it says and we have ceased to fight anyone or anything including alcohol if you are still fighting anything the Bush administration and my office in this country your tax problems your hair color if you're fighting anything or anyone you are still insane by insane I mean separated from the God Spirit the divinity within which is our true identity that doesn't mean I can't say no to inappropriate requests I'm not a doormat but true peace is the goal and if I'm fighting then self-will is still with me the tenth step gets me to look at my emotional upsets and to turn to this higher power who presumably have gotten to know better and better and to say help me in this moment I'm done just two thoughts on step ten for me first of all I do them in reverse that's ten and eleven I happen to meditate in the morning to kind of cleanse myself for the day and then in the evening I do an inventory and I do spotting shows during the day how am I feeling what's going on here when I get screwed up and I ask for help but sometimes sometimes I'm willful and don't ask for help but I do my inventory in the evening and I try to do it by the book I look at certain character defects that are set forth in the tenth step and throughout the text I look at selfishness dishonesty resentment and fear on the negative side on the positive side I look at patience tolerance understanding and love and I'm still uncomfortable with the word love which says something about me spiritually but there it is I still have an issue I guess with that kind of that level of emotional surrender but that's what I look at and I measure my day by those eight those eight words the second thing I just wanted to mention to you do we have the promises up set ten promises pages eighty four five no no there are some promises on pages eighty four and five at the end of the tenth step and I just wanted to point out to you something that you may you may very well know we talk when we talk about the promises we talk about the promises at the end of step nine before we are halfway through this process et cetera et cetera pages eighty three and four but there are step promises that are connected to virtually every step in the book and the tenth step promises are among the most beautiful and I'm not going to read them again because of time constraints but next time you go through the big book take a look at each discussion of each step and you'll see that there are promises associated with virtually every step not just step nine and the step ten promises are beautiful so I'm going to turn back to Kevin for the brief discussion of step eleven the book as Bill sees it is that in this country is that in this country there is a passage in it in the English it is on page 286 and I'll just quote that and then get off Bill says there are times when others congratulate us on how we're doing but we know deep down we're not doing good enough invariably I find that I'm skimping on a step and it is almost always the eleventh step it is so alcoholic that I do this work and then turn away before the reward and the reward is the source of strength strength the source of quiet the source of peace the source of confidence and it only comes ours is an action program but the hardest part of the action program is to be still and let this thing come to me when I first came in if I was still the voices said have sex with this person punch that person in the nose go get drunk they were the voices of demons the longer I'm sober and the more I grow there is a still small voice which I believe is who I really am speaking to me it takes work to cultivate that the book tells me at night I review the day so that I can clean out what's wrong and ask not to have morbid reflection in the morning I ask to know what to do during the day and then A.A.'s great line when agitated or doubtful which is my constant mood when I'm agitated or I'm doubtful we pause it is that I need another American who is not of A.A. Jerry Garcia who in fact died in a rehab of the Grateful Dead had a song I need a miracle every day I need a miracle every day I need a miracle throughout the day and the 11th step is come to me please I gotta have your help please it's so easy for me to think I'm getting some place with this when I'm still fighting and still anxious I think the hardest thing in A.A. is to admit I'm not where I wish to be but I do wish to keep moving and 11 is about practice and persistence and discipline because sometimes it takes a long time to start the move I have crossed this planet looking for teachers I thank God that I am so emotionally disturbed that I have to keep searching even if you don't believe it will happen to you that's a fucking lie you will find the peace keep looking keep looking you once kept drinking kept drinking kept drinking I beg you don't give up because when you know you'll know you know and I'm done for me step 11 is a quiet time in the morning plus perhaps other quiet times during the day but it always there's always a quiet time in the morning just 10 or 15 minutes while the coffee is brewing and what I try to do is achieve a state of thoughtlessness that's all and see what comes when I'm wrestling or unable to achieve thoughtlessness I resort to a prayer and it's a prayer that was one of Bill's favorites I came across a pamphlet of his a pamphlet AA pamphlet it's entitled The Co-Founders of Alcoholics Anonymous and it's biographical sketches and their last major talks so Bill's last written words were I would like to and this is the prayer that I that I focus on and I have for years it's right out of the step 11 discussion in the 12 and 12 Bill says I would like to conclude with the memory of one of history's great figures and with words dedicated to him that have come down through the centuries his name was Francis Lord make me a child of thy peace that where there is hatred I may bring love that where there is wrong I may bring the spirit of forgiveness that where there is discord I may bring harmony that where there is error I may bring truth that where there is despair I may bring hope that where there are shadows I may bring light that where there is sadness I may bring joy Lord grant that I may seek rather to comfort than to be comforted to understand than to be understood to love than to be loved for it is by self-forgetting that one finds it is by dying that one is forgiven it is by forgiving that one is forgiven it is by dying that one awakens to eternal life and that's that's a state of I think of perfection that I aspire to have I achieved it? have I achieved it? no will I achieve it? no but it's what I aspire to and it's it is the backbone of my step 11 and so I'll now turn it back to Kevin for step 12 the words of the steps are incredibly important having had a spiritual awakening and see results so if like me you sit here and say I don't think I've had it then I invite you I beg you please let's all turn back and start again and see if we can not be faking it but have that there's so much to say there's some passages that are useful but we're running out of time so there's one incredibly powerful line which says so cooperate never criticize to be helpful is our only aim if you read in the English version I do not know the Danish the word never appears five times in working with others it tells me what I should never do which is basically be an unloving unkind person if I have had an awakening I'm going to want to be in the world not codependently not abusively not taking away but just offering freely what's been given to me if I haven't had this awakening then I need to keep on till I have it and when I have it I'm here because you invited me and I'm here because it's the most important thing I could possibly do in my life and I thank you from the bottom of my heart and I hope I've offended no one with what I've said it was not my intent but perhaps to awaken so the gift of step 10 for me was the gift of the now the gift of step 11 has been the gift of the channel the channel from God the gift of step 12 I said it before is the gift of the mystery how it is that I help myself by helping you how does that work people wonder whether it's they argue back in New Jersey whether it's a selfish or a selfless program and the fact of the matter is I think it's both I help you I help me by helping you let me conclude with a good good old old fashioned 12 step story that I think is instructive of a lot I've got a cousin named Mark and he's a real alcoholic he's had three esophageal therapies you know what that is? that's when your liver is so clogged with scar tissue that your blood pressure has to elevate so high to pump blood through your liver for cleansing purposes that the veins in your throat explode so he choked on his own blood three times the only way to stop it is to insert to cauterize the veins in the neck with chemicals so doctors insert chemical swabs into the neck to literally burn and seal the blood vessels because the blood pressure is so elevated so he choked to death on his own blood three times but didn't die then finally he had liver bypass surgery which means that they routed only about half his blood through his liver since it was so clogged with scar tissue so he was getting unfiltered blood through his brain and as I knew him he was going brain dead this is and this guy was still drinking and drugging and I got a call from his mother begging me this was my cousin so his his mother called me she was my aunt or something she called me and begged me to please do a 12 step call she told me that as far as she knew he was shooting mainlining glue which is the most scouting thing I had ever heard to that point in my life so we went to him and we did a 12 step call my sponsor and I and after hours and hours of discussion back and forth we persuaded him to finally let us drive him to a detox so where he could be medically supervised and I think that's important in withdrawal from a combination of drugs God knows what his problems were so he finally said ok and we got him in the car we drove him to a detox and we left him there and that was 3.30 in the morning I called his aunt at 7 to let her know what had happened I didn't want to call her at 3.30 and who picks up the phone but Mark I said Mark what are you doing there he said Mike you'll never believe what happened I came to this morning and I was in a hospital so I did what I always do when I find myself in a hospital I got up and I left he caught a cab and went home I was just astounded so the whole time that we were having this conversation with him he was in a blackout and I called my sponsor and I relayed this to him he knew the story because he'd been with me and he said not to worry it was a successful 12 step call I said what do you mean he said he stayed sober didn't he and sure enough Mark has been institutionalized his hair has turned white he's on a walker he's brain dead he's forgotten that he was an alcoholic and drug addict so he doesn't drink and drug anymore but he's sort of not there anymore and he could get to the state of New Jersey for the rest of his life but I've been sober for almost 15 years since that incident so that's all I have to say about the 12 step and we'll open it up to 5 minutes of questions there are two passages and then we'll open after all our problems were of our own making bottles were only a symbol besides we have stopped fighting anything or anyone we have to and the last one if you doubt that this spiritual thing is happening let me ask you this if you have helped anyone stay away from a drink or a drug for 10 seconds then the miracles already happened to you doubt I believe is the most dangerous part of this disease we doubt the good so don't doubt it just keep working the final quote is we have been speaking to you of serious sometimes tragic things we have been dealing with alcohol and its worst aspects but we aren't a glum lot if newcomers could see no joy or fun in our existence they wouldn't want it we absolutely insist on enjoying life questions on steps 10, 11 and 12 or comments my name is Gia I'm an alcoholic I would like to hear if you make any distinction between steps 10 and 11 because for me it's pretty much the same although that step 11 is prayer and meditation as well but the dating inventory making amends, apology, resentful, anger and so on I think they flow very closely together and I think we're reaching the point where we're trying to create a separation becomes more an intellectual task than spiritual activity I do them both all day but as I indicated earlier at a minimum I pray and meditate in the morning and I take my inventory at night that's just how I do it it kind of reinforces for me that day at a time living concept that has become so important I can get through any day even if I can't get through a year in a day I can get through a day in a day and I do that by taking those concrete steps