If I Didn’t Quite Tell It All in the Four Steps Then I’m Still Paying for It Today – Dan D.
About This Speaker Tape
Dan D. shares his journey of recovery from alcoholism and his ongoing battle with multiple sclerosis (MS). He discusses how his difficult childhood, marked by family dysfunction and addiction, led him to alcoholism and drug addiction at a young age. Dan entered AA at 18 after a family ultimatum and has maintained sobriety since February 1986. He emphasizes the importance of the AA program, sponsorship, and service work in his recovery.
Dan also recounts his diagnosis with MS in 1994, eight years into sobriety, and how he has used the spiritual tools of AA to navigate the challenges of living with a chronic illness. He highlights the support he has received from the fellowship and how his experience with MS has enriched his ability to help others in recovery. Dan's story is one of resilience, gratitude, and the transformative power of AA.
Throughout the interview, Dan reflects on the importance of humility, gratitude, and living authentically. He shares how AA has positively impacted his marriage, parenting, and overall life, even in the face of significant health challenges. Dan's message is one of hope and encouragement for anyone struggling with addiction or other life-altering conditions.
Topics
Timestamps
Full Transcript
Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic,
sober since January 1, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where...
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic,
sober since January 1, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where...
Welcome back, my friends, to AA Recovery Interviews.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic,
sober since January 1, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where Alcoholics Anonymous members
from around the world share their extraordinary stories
of experience, strength, and hope.
I invite you to scroll through my extensive catalog
of more than 125 awesome AA interviews on any podcast app
or at the website aarecoveryinterviews.com.
Every episode is unique, inspiring, engaging, and meaningful.
Each story is a powerful testimony of the recovery available to all in AA.
So sit back and enjoy this encore episode of my August 2021 interview
with Dan D., whose sobriety date is February 1986.
When I showed up in AA,
Dan already had a couple years sober and was only 20 years old.
But his qualification for AA was gleaned from a difficult childhood
that included divorced parents at age three,
after which a rageful alcoholic became Dan's stepfather at age six.
From a childhood rife with family dysfunction, fear, and uncertainty,
Dan emerged into adolescence,
where he found alcohol and drugs to soothe the inner turmoil and emotional pain.
Left largely undiagnosed,
and checked by his disarrayed family,
Dan was free to run the streets as a teenager,
while his budding alcoholism and drug addiction
were paving the way to certain ruin.
By the time he was an older teen,
cocaine had taken over Dan's life,
and he started stealing from his employer
and robbing houses to support his habit.
At 18, he stepped over the line
by robbing his parents' home for the umpteenth time,
down to the carpet.
Their ultimatum to Dan was either go into treatment
or be booted out onto the street.
He spent 90 days in treatment,
followed by an intensive AA program,
in which he was guided by a thorough sponsor
and several old-timers into service-oriented sobriety
that continues to this day.
But Dan's story became truly extraordinary in 1994,
when, with eight years in the AA,
he somehow managed to stay sober
after being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.
MS is an incurable and disabling disease
that attacks the brain, spinal cord,
and the brain.
It affects the brain and the entire central nervous system.
After eight years of sobriety,
Dan's prospects with MS were those of certain pain,
constant struggle, and debilitation of his entire body.
But he has endured MS
by utilizing the spiritual tools of the program
to battle that chronic disease.
What amazes me most about Dan
is how he has taken his experience fighting MS
and put it into practical use in his AA program.
Residing in the center of AA,
as Dan calls it,
his service work with newcomers and as a sponsor
is incredibly inspiring to anyone seeking sobriety.
I'll let Dan tell you the rest of the story.
I'm confident you'll come away with a new perspective
of experience, strength, and hope
told from Dan's unique and inimitable point of view.
So, listen closely for many gifts over the next hour,
served up by my friend and AA brother, Dan D.
I'm Dan D. I'm an alcoholic.
Thanks for identifying.
I always do that, Dan,
just to make this sound a little bit more like a meeting.
Whenever it was I started to put this thing together,
you were one of the guys I had in mind
that I wanted to interview somewhere along the way.
And I'm sorry it's taken us this long to get it together,
but, you know, the good interviews just go on and on and on
on this podcast.
And so I want to really thank you for doing this today.
Absolutely.
So, the first thing I'd like to know, Dan,
is how are you feeling today?
Today has been decent.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm feeling okay.
Family's good.
Kids are good.
Yeah.
My health is a bit challenging of late,
but just taking it a day at a time.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was asking about
because I know that your alcoholism
has informed certain parts of your life,
but you've been sober a long time now, right?
What, about 35 years?
Correct.
What's your sobriety date?
217, 86.
The reason I was asking about how you're feeling
is because, you know,
we've got this deadly disease called alcoholism
that we have arrested,
but, you know,
you and other people in the program,
but you're one of the closest to me
that I know has another major health challenge going on
in addition to staying sober
and one that I believe needs to be talked about
and acknowledged,
and that's why I always ask you how you're feeling.
How long were you in the program
when you first got diagnosed?
June 9th of 94, I was diagnosed,
so I guess eight years.
And you were diagnosed with?
Multiple sclerosis.
Multiple sclerosis.
It's just, over the years,
it's gotten more challenging.
Yeah.
And pretty rough now.
I used to see you when I first came in.
I saw you running around.
You were just this young guy that was on fire,
it looked like, with the program.
So you were sober, you said,
eight years before the MS was diagnosed.
What was your initial feeling whenever you heard that?
Wow.
That, just how am I going to live with this,
was the same year we got married.
Mm-hmm.
Diagnosed June of 94.
Mm-hmm.
We got married September of 94.
Wow.
So I've been sober a while,
and I was plenty submerged in recovery.
You know, I called my sponsor,
and I started calling other people,
and I just leaned into the program.
Mm-hmm.
But I was pretty fearful,
just not knowing what it's going to entail,
how bad will it get,
does God have my back, has he got me here?
You know, I mean, I know he got me here,
but does he have me here?
Yeah.
So I was all over the map.
I wonder about that.
And it's like, when people come into the program,
they get some spirituality.
Is it conditional on the way they're feeling at that time,
or do they get the spirituality that gives them the assurance
that they'll be able to face future things?
What kind of spiritual condition were you in
when you first got your diagnosis?
You know, decent.
I'd worked the steps several times by that time.
Yeah.
I'd been to, you know, I went to Holy Name Retreat
like three or four a year.
But I'd been to Boatloader Retreat,
I'd taken other people through the steps.
So I was pretty steeped in spirituality.
Mm-hmm.
I was pretty comfortable, but it's still kind of,
what?
You know, it's incurable, it's debilitating,
it can be crippling.
I mean, it's a pretty heavy diagnosis.
So even with a whole lot of faith,
I had some fear out.
Yeah.
How did you process it at that time?
Just taking it in 24-hour chunks.
You know, it really always got down to,
God's got me this far, you know,
surely everything's going to be okay in the end.
So if it's not okay, it's not the end.
You know, I clung on to funny little sayings here and there,
but really I just leaned into the program.
Yeah.
The people that care about me, including my now wife.
Yeah, yeah.
Whenever that happened,
do you recall any gratitude for having gotten sober
and worked the steps that you had the tools
to then address yet another disease?
A hundred percent.
I won't say that I got it in real time, Howard.
I would say looking back five years after that
or when we've had our second child,
you know, as life went on and certainly my condition,
as I stated in the opening, has gotten worse over the late.
I'm in a wheelchair.
I'm, you know, really challenging now.
But yes, absolutely.
I've had to, at some point, had some rough nights, Howard.
I wake up and say, okay, well, it's just me and God
or it's just me, you know?
So, I mean, it's, he has to be in the equation.
So, yeah, looking back was a lot easier.
I would not say in real time.
I just synced up spiritually, got five bars on my G drive
and said, let's do this.
It wasn't like that.
Yeah, I get that.
Well, so whenever that was going on,
were you the only guy that you knew who had,
not just MS, but another disease that they were living with
that other members in the program knew about?
So, upon my first diagnosis,
I didn't really know many of my MS.
I didn't really know many people in the program
with other illnesses like that.
But what happens is your phone starts ringing.
Hey, I got some guy that has muscular dystrophy
or had pancreatic cancer.
You know, phone starts ringing with other people
who have other chronic illnesses, things like that.
And while I don't have cancer, you know,
John, another guy that you know,
I didn't have cancer and he didn't have MS.
But we got together and talked about
just really chunky crap
that normally you don't have anywhere to go to.
So, yeah, things presented themselves
through the fellowship
that allowed us all to grow.
So, and I still get,
hey, Dan, I got a guy that's his,
that I sponsor.
His wife was just diagnosed.
And would you be okay if I give her your,
you know, lives in California.
So, somebody you'll never meet.
Right.
That's the spouse of it.
So, of course, this is where the fellowship is powerful
and you share your experience, you know,
and strengthen hope.
Yeah, and that's a great sentiment.
In fact, one of the most precious times in my sobriety
has been when you and I and a handful of other men
were going over and having the meetings at John's house
when he was on his, literally on his deathbed.
And it was such a moving opportunity
for us to be able to be there together
and holding the meeting.
And what's interesting about it, Dan,
is that I interviewed Diane early on in this series
and got to hear about what it was like for her
when we were doing that for John.
And he was a beautiful man.
As he was getting closer and closer to passing,
Right.
I would meet him more and more.
We would go to Starbucks, right?
Uh-huh.
And he would, you know, he would bitch, you know,
Diane's being negative.
I need positive people around me.
You know, she thinks I'm going to die.
I'm like, John, you are.
She has the right to feel.
Basically, when you get called to the,
you know, it's time.
It's time to say something to him in that moment.
I needed to comfort him to comfort her.
You're going to, you know, she has the right.
So it gets pretty intense when you talk about this stuff.
So what was going on in your life
when you were growing up that predicted
the need for AA somewhere down the line?
What was early life like in Dan D's experience?
Of course.
So youngest of five,
and my real father died when I was 10.
And I got sober.
I was 18.
Wow.
So my mom had gotten remarried to another alcoholic.
My dad died of alcoholism.
He did.
Says it on his death certificate.
Doesn't say cirrhosis or heart alcoholism.
That's unusual, isn't it?
Correct.
So he died when I was 10.
My mom got remarried to another drunk.
Uh-huh.
And his,
his addiction was,
I mean,
his abuse,
you know,
it was an interesting time growing up in an alcoholic home,
just the mayhem.
And so,
you know,
just running the streets.
And I mean,
I just got in trouble early.
Yeah.
At 12,
13,
14,
you know,
and so by the time I was 18,
Howard,
I was already in trouble.
You know,
I wasn't even legal to drink.
Yet I'm already infested with this disease.
So,
I,
I don't blame it on the upbringing of the family,
but,
uh,
you know,
it is hereditary.
My real dad died of it.
Do you remember as a child ever saying to yourself,
man,
that's not going to be me when I get older,
my real father,
they got divorced when I was like three.
Uh,
and then he died when I was 10.
So they weren't living together.
Okay.
I barely remember my dad.
I see.
Uh,
they said he was a good man.
He just drank too much.
He couldn't not drink.
And so I don't remember much of that.
My stepfather was pretty much a raging alcoholic.
I mean,
when he drank,
it just got crazy in the house.
I mean,
shotgun blast.
I mean,
it was,
it was pretty intense around the house.
So yes,
I did not want to,
I saw the dis ease part of this disease living right in my house with my
stepfather and how he treated my mom.
And all of us when he was drunk.
So yes,
I got a front row seat of what not,
but I'm already sober by at 18.
So,
uh,
well,
I don't want to do that.
Well,
I don't,
you know,
I would say it would be through my stepdad,
not from my dad.
Yeah.
So how old were you when your mom remarried or when your stepdad came into the picture?
I think six 73,
I was born in 67.
Yeah.
Six years old.
Okay.
So he comes into your life.
Things start to get progressively worse for you.
And so the next 12 years you're under his roof.
Correct.
Wow.
Must've been the tumultuous time in your family.
Yeah.
But they let me roam.
I mean,
I was running the streets be gone for two or three days without,
I mean,
you know,
you're in trouble when you run away from home and they don't look for you.
Yeah.
You just show up through.
In other words,
there was no,
no oversight.
There was no borders,
no anything.
So that's why I got in trouble.
So young.
I just,
I went zero to a thousand miles an hour.
Just,
you know,
hit my addiction at a young age turned out to be a blessing,
but didn't didn't think so.
Where were you chronologically amongst your siblings?
Youngest of five.
You're the youngest of five.
So did you get any ideas on how to live life or how to survive in this crazy home?
You were in from your older siblings or was it all self-taught?
You know,
always again,
not in real time,
but later you pick up on stuff,
but I'll say this,
and this will give you a feeling for the addiction.
My stepfather's disease live in our house.
Yeah.
When you turned 18 and some of them 17,
you're out.
Didn't matter if you went to college or just moved out on your own.
In other words,
nobody stuck around.
It was 17 and out 18 and out.
Nobody came back.
You know,
some kid graduated from college and didn't get a job immediately and they moved back.
No,
it was run.
Well,
how long,
how many years were you alone in that house where everybody else was out?
The youngest,
the closest to me,
Howard was about two years.
He went to college.
And so I was there really about two years where it was just me,
my mom,
and my stepdad and that's 16 to 18,
which is when it got the worst for me.
Selling drugs got kicked out of high school.
How old were you when you started acting out and started running the streets figuratively and literally?
Yes.
I'll give you from 12 to 18.
I can do it pretty quick.
Started drinking at 12.
I just started with alcohol,
little sippy sip.
You know,
it was,
it was adorable.
Hey,
I'll have another one of those.
And it did not end up adorable when I was 18.
But anyway,
started with a little bit of alcohol and then a lot of alcohol.
And then I think what got me Howard is,
uh,
well,
alcohol was always there.
It was my sweetheart,
you know,
at age 13,
14,
but I added stuff.
Our book talks about switching,
you know,
we switched drugs or switched,
but I didn't switch.
I added,
so I kept alcohol.
I mean,
I started on alcohol and I kept drinking more and more and more.
Right.
And then I added marijuana.
I didn't,
I didn't switch to marijuana.
So,
so my alcohol still went up and my,
my marijuana,
my weed went up.
And then after three months of six months of that,
I added Quaaludes and mandrakes and,
you know,
speed.
I mean,
I kept going on and on adding stuff while still smoking weed.
So that's not a winning formula,
you know,
yeah.
By the time I was 16,
I would say I started doing a heavier cocaine in particular.
I know this is Alcoholics Anonymous,
but I started doing cocaine alcoholically.
I'll say it that way.
That really expedited stuff as well.
I mean,
foot went down on the speedometer and it just went a million miles an hour.
And that really got me to my finish line quicker.
I'll bet.
Well,
I've heard that from a number of my guests who had the cocaine in their lives as well.
Now,
well,
you just snorted.
Were you snorting cocaine or were you doing anything with pre-basing or crack?
No crack smoking it and snorting.
Okay.
You were never an IB drug user.
I imagine it was next,
but correct.
So you're 16 years old and you're starting to do cocaine.
Where does a 16 year old find the money to be able to afford a daily cocaine habit?
So I was working for a cleaners.
I started selling,
uh,
to employees and then I would drive the truck and drop it off to certain locations.
And so I was making basically $42 a day.
Um,
I may,
I don't remember.
This was 38 years ago.
I was third 16.
But anyway,
uh,
I would make,
you know,
50 bucks a day.
Well,
I had a $300 a day coke habit.
So plus the weed and the alcohol,
all the others.
So,
I basically started stealing,
start stealing from the cleaners little by little,
just chipping,
you know,
60 81,
whatever.
And then I started stealing from my parents house little by little,
taking whatever it could.
And then I started fricking Robin houses,
you know,
literally kicking into,
you know,
I mean,
I had friends with me that would do it,
but I'm not talking to armed robbery.
I just mean,
uh,
so,
I mean,
what do you do when you have a 300,
a dollar a day drug habit and you make 50 bucks,
you either quit or you start stealing shit.
Were you found out by your folks?
Did they ever confront you with that?
Well,
February 1st of 86 February 2nd,
sometime around then I came home one day and I took basically everything out of my parents house.
I just backed up a truck and took them to the carpet.
I mean,
uh,
my dealer had a place by the flea market that he would take everything.
So I took,
you know,
VH.
Well,
they weren't,
they were beta max member.
Betama.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I would take videos and like in table and there's nothing he wouldn't take for drugs.
So I cleaned my parents out.
Wow.
So I was,
I was literally living on the streets for two weeks because I thought they were going to shoot me.
And so that's when I started,
I would go over to friends,
house and they'd let me in.
I'll sit,
I unlock a window and then go back,
you know,
the next morning and have their maid make me a sandwich while I went upstairs and stole from their parents.
I mean,
it was pretty intense.
Howard.
Yeah.
Sounds like it.
I mean,
who are these running buddies you had at the time?
Who,
who were your partners in crime?
What did,
were you part of a little gang of guys or were you working mostly on your own?
I mean,
I'm not in touch with any of them anymore.
I imagine some of them outgrew it and became CEO.
And I mean,
I'm sure that happened.
Yeah.
I'm sure there's a couple of them in jail,
you know,
too.
I don't know.
But I took the program serious when it said distance yourself from your buddies that,
you know,
you're,
you're using buddies.
So I took that serious.
Now,
did your stepfather at this time,
did he ever attempt to get sober?
It did.
He got sober March 9th of 83.
Uh huh.
So he was sober those last three years.
Still pretty raging,
you know,
pretty crazy in the house,
but he was sober.
Let me ask you how that informed your understanding of AA to be with somebody who goes from being the way they are drinking to going into AA,
but it still seems like they're just the same.
How did that make you feel about the AA program?
Um,
I don't recall really how it made me feel.
I just knew that's not what I wanted.
I didn't want,
I didn't want to end up like that.
We drive drunk or whatever you want to call it.
But I did appreciate the fellowship part of it.
He always had people around.
I mean,
he was a good man.
He was just a raging alcohol.
So he always had people,
Hey,
this is so-and-so they're going to be here for Thanksgiving.
You know,
he always had people over and stuff like that.
So I did appreciate the fellowship.
I went to these clubs,
Howard.
I mean,
I grew up in AA.
Sure.
I went to Alateen,
Alatot,
but my goodness,
he was in the,
forget the name of the place out in Katy,
my stepfather,
when he,
when he got sober in 83.
And,
uh,
I went to the club back in the day.
And so,
yeah,
I kind of grew up in AA.
And looking back,
can you point to anything that you heard or learned as a tot or a teen that influenced you to either getting into the program sooner or later?
I went to spend the treatment center.
Correct.
February 16th of 86.
I walked home that day.
I thought they were going to shoot me.
Right.
Because I'd stolen everything out of their house.
Anyway,
uh,
they said,
you got two choices.
You can keep walking because we've had enough of your ass or you can go to treatment.
Uh-huh.
It's set up for you to go to treatment.
I said,
I'll take door number two.
So I've been sober ever since.
So getting in treatment,
being on a young people's unit,
uh,
I would say I was drawn to that,
you know,
and then getting,
you know,
I spent 60 days,
you know,
in a 28 day program.
So getting out and doing aftercare and starting retreats immediately,
uh,
the fellowship kicked in really early for me and I took it very serious.
So I learned more.
I just needed a home.
I needed a,
you know,
I needed a home base and I was just drawn to recovery.
Howard.
So when you were new in AA,
uh,
there were still a bunch of old timers running around at that time.
Some of the legends of,
of Houston AA.
Did you find you were hanging with the young people more than the old people?
So yes,
we were,
you know,
got out,
it was a young people militia back then.
I mean,
it was,
you know,
you got in young and,
uh,
you just stayed at it,
you know?
So both,
I would say I went to the 10 o'clock meeting at night.
We'd started going down to the men's center to see Francis wise meeting on Sunday nights.
And he would be,
he ended up being my sponsor.
Some years later before he died November of 92,
Francis was my sponsor when he died.
Francis,
why so Frenchie look George P I don't know if,
you know,
so I always respected the senior guys.
Then I got introduced to Alder and Bel Air men and all that.
So I wouldn't say I hung around him as much.
I would draw from them,
their wisdom and their experience in recovery.
And then ultimately got Francis to sponsor me.
He was 40 years older than me,
but,
uh,
I would say it's a blend of the two.
When you were 18 coming into AA,
I've actually sponsored guys who got sober even earlier than that.
And you know,
14,
15 years old.
And one of the things they say is they never had the opportunity to do what so many people had done that fueled their alcoholism and drug addiction.
Did you ever give that much thought?
Did you ever give that much thought about things that maybe you missed as a later teenager or early 20 something that everybody else seemed to get to do the one glaring thing Howard in this capacity that jumped out college I blew off college I just can't believe I've been able to make a good living for myself and my family obviously I met a girl got married and you know in 88 I met my bride now and married 94 like I told you earlier but didn't go to college.
I didn't go to college.
I didn't go to college.
I didn't go to college.
I have zero college credit hours so I would say because of my addiction and then I University of AA I've just joined y'all you know and leaned into the program but I do wish that I went the traditional route in some sort of you know the college route but God's got my back I mean I ended up working around it making a good living for myself but I would say that's the one blind spot that caught up.
Yeah I know I know some other guys in the.
Program you and I both do who skip the college pathway and just went straight into business or or doing other things and a lot of those guys are still sober today and the wisdom that they bring to the program into their sponsors and to meetings absolutely belies the fact that they don't have a college education right and yet the flip side of that is those fast talking no dolls who come in with a fancy degrees and they can't seem to stay sober.
Of course you know.
I've got plenty of smart people from you know who went got college degrees who have terrific recovery that serves them well right at the time that you had the opportunity to go to college did you ever seriously consider it no never consider it just blew it off so what were meetings like for you in the early days did you enjoy going to meetings absolutely so it depends on which you know I started doing a lot of men's meetings.
Oh yeah.
Probably.
Five years into my recovery I started doing quite a bit of men's meetings we would go out to Deer Park all over the place in Pasadena so we would hit meetings all over the place and then doing the men's meetings was excellent Howard because you know there was big book studies there were step studies you know you couldn't share one of the alderman street if you hadn't worked the steps you couldn't share if you remember I remember that yeah.
So they'll call.
On you and you know you're on step three and it's a four step meeting they will cut you off if you hadn't done you know well this is what I'm going to do and you know so yeah you learn that these men are serious about their recovery because it's a serious addiction so I would say a blend of the two going men's meetings and also hanging around some of the younger folks you know I needed a blend of the two but it was I did enjoy that.
Obviously getting sponsees and learn how to sponsor others and then yeah and I was diagnosed with MS not long after that I got married so other experiences just added value to my life and therefore experience so that I can reach still younger and older people.
That's important for the women or even some of the men who are listening to these podcasts could you explain what the attraction or importance of men's meetings.
Is to you in the course of your recovery versus let's say a mixed meeting of course so obviously the world of COVID I'm not getting out as much now so this is not a now feeling but you just get to talk about I don't know it seems like everybody's more honest less ego you don't have to worry about this girl here's that or you know you just lay it out there.
So I think.
I think it's that I think it's just the comfort level of a smaller ego which I'm just another man in the boat let's do you know my arms are tired of paddling I hand it to the next man so the camaraderie the fellowship and just the ability to be gutless and plus that you see one guy just hey man I just want y'all to know that I was just diagnosed with so and so I'm having a really hard time and you know you might get emotional or something.
I'll get there was no cell phones back when I got sober but you'll start getting you know later on in recovery you start getting text and hey man why don't you call that and so there's just so many opportunities for growth even through people's pain yeah even today that that's why I love the fellowship so much.
It's so important to have that connection with others and men's meetings allow for a type of sharing that might be a little bit more reserved in a mixed meeting.
But.
That's why I try and do a mixture of men's meetings and mixed meetings as well.
So when you were going through your steps for the first time you got yourself a sponsor when you first came in.
Correct.
How long did it take for you to work through the 12 steps.
We had to work through four in treatment.
So within 60 days I finished the first three in row by four.
Was it an AA based fourth step or was it one of these treatment center massaged fourth.
Steps with 150 yes no check the box question.
No it was double a good to the core right out of the book my sponsor I had to back up and do one two three you know with him but we worked all 12 steps right from the book.
I mean especially my first month so probably nine months it took me to work all 12.
Did he get you on top of sponsoring other men when you were done 100 percent working with others.
And so once you you know got to give it away.
Way to keep it right.
It's just that's what you do.
You pass the baton.
So every sponsor I've had or every time I've worked the steps that's the deal.
You come in come all the way in sit all the way down work the steps and then reach out to the new either the new guy or you know had it all all kinds of ways.
People have come back in after going back out.
But yes it's sponsoring other men over the years has been very rewarding.
We'll be right back.
My friends if you're enjoying a recovery interviews I invite you to check out my latest audio book Alcoholics Anonymous the story of how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism.
This is the word for word cover to cover reading of the first edition of the big book published in 1939.
It's a relaxing yet meaningful and engaging way to listen to the big book anytime any place.
Have a free listen at Audible iTunes or Amazon.
While you're there.
Search for my other audio book Lost Stories of the Big Book 30 original stories missing from the third and fourth editions of Alcoholics Anonymous.
It's also available from Amazon as a Kindle book or in paperback.
If you'd like to read along you're going to love it.
And we're back.
I know a number of the men that you sponsor and I've had some of them on the show and you can tell the quality of a man's sobriety by the quality of his sponsee sobriety.
And I've noticed that.
I've heard a lot about you a lot over the years.
You're a high quality sobriety kind of guy.
Appreciate that.
Now between the years of 86 and let's say 94 when you got the MS diagnosis had you experienced any major upheavals or losses?
You mentioned getting married of course that's a good thing that's a gift type thing.
But before you got to the MS did you encounter anything that shook your program up or sent you spinning out towards the edge?
Really no.
Let's say no to that.
That was the first real heavy event that happened post recovery.
So about the time that you first got the diagnosis were you pretty much on the top of your game with regard to AA?
How was your spiritual condition going into that period?
Right.
Yeah.
You don't ever want to say you're on top of your game.
But I was pretty synced up with sponsees, hitting my meetings, doing my readings and prayer.
So yeah.
I was spiritually fit let's say and really connected.
I mean I called my sponsor.
Well I think I went to actually the men's center when I was first diagnosed with MS.
But yeah I would say that.
How much in advance of going and actually having it diagnosed were the symptoms starting to show up for you?
So symptoms are totally different today.
Obviously it's been 27 years.
But I had vision problems.
My hands were numb.
Balance was getting bad.
My legs were not as bad as they are now.
But vision was the biggest issue.
I saw double.
Part of my MS was a diagnosis called diplopia which was double vision.
So basically for a year I couldn't drive.
My wife took me.
It was that year, 94.
She took me to work.
I mean it was pretty intense.
The workarounds and stuff.
But that went away.
So 94 to 98 I had symptoms.
Mm-hmm.
And then from 98 to 08 it was pretty much dormant or asymptomatic.
And then 2008, 9, 10, you know it's gotten worse over the years.
And then I got in a wheelchair in 2016 I think.
And that's where I'm at today.
Yeah.
I've been going to meetings with you throughout that whole time.
So I've had a chance to see as an outsider the progression of that particular disease.
And the reprieve you got in the middle of it though.
I mean you said that there was a period where things were dormant.
Did you feel back to normal for a while?
Yeah.
I would say that's a good way to say it.
Back to normal.
I mean I knew I had it.
But yet it wasn't showing up.
And so I wasn't in denial.
I just, if it works don't fix it or whatever.
So I just went with life.
We had a kid, our first child in 2000, second child in 2002.
I remember asking our neurologist, hey can I have kids?
I mean what are the chances of them getting this?
Obviously I didn't want that.
And they said look, no we can't.
It can't be hereditary.
My older sister has MS also.
My oldest sister.
But they said we can't tell you anymore that your kids will have it.
And they won't.
So we just said alright God, let's have some kids.
And if they have, we'll deal with that.
And they turned out to be perfectly healthy.
So God bless them.
God's got my back.
He does.
The day that you got your diagnosis, what was that like?
It was just heavy.
It was just the not knowing.
How bad is it going to get?
Is it going to be painful?
How am I going to stay sober through this?
How am I going to stay married through this?
What will I be able to do?
What won't I be able to do?
So the fear of the unknown is what really crept in.
Even though I was,
had a relationship with a higher power that was strengthened over time.
And I get that.
But the fear does creep in of the unknown.
Just not knowing how bad it might get.
What's that going to look like?
So I would say that.
So you and I have heard over the years that fear and faith can't exist in the same instance.
And I'm a believer that you can have a lot of faith.
You can believe in God.
And know that God is taking care of you.
And has your back.
But still you're feeling pain.
I think it's possible to feel both feelings at the same time.
I understand that.
Yeah.
They coexist for me too.
Even still.
I've lived years on the corner of Faith Boulevard and Fear Avenue.
I mean right there on the corner.
And I try and not let the fear take me over.
Do you,
in your specialized knowledge and experience with MS,
do you find that men who become your sponsees are attracted to you because of that?
Or do you find that men who are facing debilitating diseases other than alcoholism,
do you seek them out?
What does that look like for you?
Well, I'll take the first part of that first.
The men that I sponsor,
I would say it this way, Howard.
The men that I sponsor have appreciated
the diversity of me.
My wife and I have been together a long time.
I'm raising kids.
I'm submerged in corporate America.
I've been sober a long time.
I got native Houstonian.
I mean I've got a lot of really quality relationships,
friends in recovery and outside.
So I think most of the sponsees have appreciated my experience.
And then you add,
incurable debilitating illness like MS,
and that's added experience of maneuvering through life,
just living with some really chunky stuff and still being happy,
still wanting to,
you know,
I always said one of my sayings was if I died tomorrow,
I'd want to come back as me.
And I still feel that way.
You know,
I'm not in love with every chapter in the book of Dan,
but it's a good book.
And then the second part of that,
that was the sponsor part of the sponsees.
Absolutely.
Howard,
like Alex L.
I'm talking to him at least two days a week.
Now he's up in Michigan just to check on him.
He has another diagnosis on top of his MS.
And so I do talk to people in recovery.
I love talking to people in recovery with other,
you know,
with other debilitating illnesses and how we jointly maneuver through life with
them,
even if they're not all with MS.
And that's a whole special grain of the fellowship that's really unmatched.
It's,
it's unbelievable.
Similar to the men's meeting stuff I was talking about back earlier.
You just get,
you're uniquely qualified to talk about some really tough stuff that,
you know,
you get them,
they get you.
So I think both sides of your question is,
is valid for me.
As I recall,
you were involved at some point,
maybe you still are with a non AA group is,
is,
are you still involved with that,
that support group?
And what does that mean for you?
So I'm not involved in that anymore.
I think for about five years,
I would say I went to a chronic illness support group and,
um,
it was excellent.
Howard,
there was about eight to nine people in the group that we all had different
stuff.
I mean,
I was the only alcoholic that also had another,
but we all had different stuff.
We had MS,
we had ale.
I mean,
we all,
but they were chronic illnesses and there was no,
you know,
it was,
you had to be really chronically the way the lady vetted them that ran it.
Anyway,
it was outstanding.
So,
um,
I could take a lot of my fellowship stuff from AA and let it kind of creep
into that group a little bit,
as far as how we shared with each other.
So I took my experience and string and hope.
I took that into my support group,
but I had to drop it when we started four years ago or so,
but it was outstanding.
And what a gift to them,
especially,
I mean,
to people who don't have AA to be able to,
to be able to have the additional and added wisdom of somebody who's worked
a,
a spiritual program of recovery to bring that kind of energy into that kind
of group,
how meaningful that must've been to them.
I think so.
I certainly hope so,
but.
Oh,
I'm sure.
Well,
just the kind of guy you are.
You're a loving,
caring guy.
And,
uh,
I remember you mentioning along the way,
Dan,
the importance of AA and staying sober to your marriage and your relationship.
Uh,
with your family,
but in particular with your marriage,
I've heard you talk over the years about the work that you and your spouse
have had that has really been good for you.
And can you tell me what,
what affects AA has had on your marriage?
Um,
the benefits of working all the steps,
having a relationship with a higher power,
um,
taking other people through the steps,
um,
that has benefited me tremendously in my marriage.
In what ways?
Well,
just being authentic,
um,
head of the household type,
you know,
be a leader,
be just trying to be a spiritual lead,
you know,
um,
promoting prayer.
So I would say,
yeah,
I would say that the fellowship and all that kind of led me to,
uh,
I don't know,
I'm going to strengthen our relationship,
my wife.
Now,
over the years,
we've obviously,
you know,
been together that long.
We ended up doing some therapy,
which in my mind was excellent.
It wasn't like it was like,
yep,
we're investing in our relationship,
you know,
so to dig it up,
you know,
the exhumed the body and okay.
Well,
when I said,
yes,
I really meant,
you know,
43% of the time.
And so,
uh,
we've quite a bit of therapy over the years,
uh,
which has been beneficial.
It wasn't always fun.
That was maybe another chapter I'm not in love with,
but certainly strengthened our relationship.
The foundation,
uh,
it just re re tethered us so that we're sustainable for this,
for the very reason I'm in now,
which is my MS is worse than it's ever been.
Hmm.
So my relationship is strong.
That's good.
And that's something that you're,
you're blessed to have that kind of relationship.
And how about,
how about with regard to your kids,
AA and children?
Obviously,
you've been sober.
They've never seen you not sober.
What is AA meant to your relationship with your kids?
So obviously they know I don't drink.
They know I go to meetings and we've had the discussion with them about,
by the way,
you know,
it's your father's an alcoholic and,
you know,
just that you're susceptible to whatever the words are you could have the gene and just make
sure that you're mindful of that and so forth so arming them with just nowadays they find everything
on the internet more than their parents but you know sometimes they not to discredit my kids but
sometimes they don't hear anything we say but they definitely see everything we do right
so i think they just have known dad doesn't drink dad's in recovery i always have these people that
come over that i meet where do you know that guy how do you know so and so i mean kind of freaks
them out probably but uh yeah i think they see the fellowship in the program through me
through the quality of my relationships so i think it's a net plus for them
um and
then also having me never be off the grid since i've since they've known me so i think it's been
beneficial yeah it has in my life too and and i told my kids about all three of them sat them
down all together when they were relatively young and explained it in terms just like you said that
they could understand it in a way to appreciate it but seeing them become adults and having to
still make their own decisions about whether or not to engage in the kind of behavior i did
you know that's a that's a whole nother thing right so
we're talking about decades now what in addition to the struggles you've had with ms and certainly
the gifts that you've had with family and kids and and career success what have been some of the
other things that have really stuck out in the last couple of decades for you or maybe most
recently where you've looked at it and said this really shines the light on my aa program
oh quite a bit of stuff um having kids you know so 2010
i ended up all the medications for my ms and it was just crazy and so i ended up i went to my spot
drove to my sponsor's office he owned a treatment center at the time and said hey i'm just going
crazy i don't think i've gone back out i mean i didn't do anything i shouldn't do but i was like
i'm on too many meds and it was just all over the map and so uh we decided that i would go to
a treatment facility for relapse prevention i don't know if you remember this the 2010
so i ended up going to california for 41 days and uh for i call it a spiritual makeover but
i was just in trouble on all the meds and yeah antispasticity and the pain i mean it was just
i wasn't sleeping and all i did was sleep and then you know that's my ms was starting i told
you earlier 2008 is when it started coming back so
eight nine ten was just crazy getting much worse and um that's when you know i called my own
intervention and it was early enough thank goodness so that's one event that sticks out
by far because people wrote me while i was up there i worked the steps again
um a wife went up there family week and that was interesting and uh stayed in touch with a few of
those people over the years so that's one event kids obviously watching like my daughter's getting
ready in three days to move to austin to go to university of texas which i'm excited that's great
congratulations on that we went to greece and turkey together in 2015 i think it was right
before i got in the wheelchair so i mean there's tons of events like that but it's just life just
my life unfolding right in front of me even through the changes in my life and i'm just
there have been many blessings along the way and one of my more recent guests has talked about
living life out loud uh seems to me you're that kind of guy too huh oh i definitely live out loud
my life out loud yes that's a great statement um i i pride myself on being transparent or just being
raw how are you dan how are you doing today you know how much time do you have or you know i mean
just i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to
be honest with them no matter what i'm uh so i do i like to be that way i like it that god
made me that way so i agree yeah i get that have you ever faced situations where your sobriety has
been an intimidation to younger or more new members i'm sure some of that happened along
the way howard but nothing that was uncomfortable or a work around i mean if god wanted me to work
with somebody he'd put me in position and i'd be like i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead
and i'd be like i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to
be in position to you know so i i don't think that was really impenitent it was the other way around
i just other side of that when i was maybe two years sober or something i'm driving down to the
men's center to go into the sick room and there i am 19 or 20 years old and there's a guy in there
you know 78 years old been drinking his whole life and i'm going to show him something about
I mean, it was kind of like, you know, I go there, my little tie and my, it's like, what am I doing here?
But they, my sponsor told me to get down to the men's center and get in the sick room.
And I want you to smell the puke, you know, and know what that's like.
So I felt at times odd, like I really qualified to do this, but I just went.
They looked at me like, what is this kid going to teach me about recovery?
But teaching them that when your sponsor tells you to do something, you do it.
That's the lesson.
If you had to frame something to a newcomer or somebody who is beyond having hope about AA that would get the message across that you wanted to get across,
what would you say?
I would share my all-encompassing experience, and you've probably heard some of this.
It would be, hey, brother, my hope for you is that you come all the way.
You sit all the way in, you sit all the way down, you lean into us, be willing to work these steps, buy the warranty, because life's going to, you know, the 100,000 mile, I mean, it's.
You talk about buying the warranty, but I've often wondered, what does that warranty have in it that makes it so important?
Well, right.
I mean, the warranty is God, I offer myself to thee to build with me, is knowing the material.
It's the third step, getting on my knees, even when it was hard to get up from my knees.
I mean, it's just marinating in the book, recovery, and taking all those experiences to market, I call it, taking it to life.
So when you're diagnosed with an incurable, you know, God's got my, I think it's that, just sharing my experience with,
and plus the fellowship means so much to me.
Also, Howard.
Yeah.
But I would say that, and just being authentic, being real, like you said earlier, living out loud.
I think people appreciate my honesty with where I'm at.
That's one of my current winning formula.
I've had many over the years, but I think my two biggest, I had to come up with three, would be.
Humility and gratitude, those two.
That's what I land on today, 35 and some months sober, 53 years old, with multiple illnesses that want to kill me, alcoholism and MS.
But yet, I can't walk anymore.
I mean, I've got a lot of issues that need tissues, but gratitude and humility, and just, it's the same, leaning into the program, trusting y'all, saying yes.
When you get asked, you say yes.
When you get asked to tell your story, you know, taking kids through the steps, and then, you know, doing the step work myself.
I've done two ways where I've taken people through the steps and then worked it with them, basically.
Both of us did a third.
Both of us did a fourth.
Both of us did a fifth.
So, I am who you think I am, you know.
That's basically important to me.
That's a great way to think about it, too.
One of the guys who you sponsor, as a matter of fact, said something to me.
He said something to me recently about the idea of co-sponsorship.
In other words, we become so close to our sponsors that that sponsor-sponsee relationship becomes a two-way, you know.
And it's been that way from me and my sponsor, as well.
Have you found that with men you've sponsored?
Absolutely.
So, yes, over the years, including now, one of the guys that I sponsor now, I sponsored him for years when he got sober.
In 97.
I think it was.
And then we drifted for four or five years.
And then he came back to me about five years ago or maybe longer, like 2011, 12, something like that.
So, a couple years ago from now, when he had about 20 years, we worked the 12 steps again.
We both did it, like I just told you, the two-way, where we both worked all 12.
I read.
I read my fourth step to do my fifth step with my sponsee, right?
And so, it was intense.
So, basically, taking all that to market, like I said earlier, it's so beneficial.
You're so honest with each other.
And I was looking for a new sponsor.
It was time for me to switch gears.
I had a sponsor for 18 years.
He was fantastic.
But I just wanted something different.
So, I said, look, let's try out to one of my sponsees.
Would you be okay?
Would you be comfortable sponsoring me?
I know I've got 11 more years in you or whatever, but let's try it for a year.
So, we tried it for a year.
Just if it's uncomfortable, if it doesn't feel right, or if you're not able to share, you feel like.
And no, it's been fantastic.
So, Charlie D. is my sponsee and my sponsor, officially.
And it's, in my case, it's worked out for me.
Yeah, that's a great relationship to have, too.
And when he mentioned that, I knew you guys were close.
But, you know, to me, that puts the bow on top, right there.
That's the icing on the cake.
Being able to have that relationship that truly is, it kind of transcends the sponsor-sponsee relationship
and takes it to a whole other level, doesn't it?
I agree, completely.
Well, I usually like to leave a minute or two at the end for anything that you would just like to say extemporaneously
to the world of alcoholics.
Any number of whom might listen.
I would say this.
Most of what I suffer from today, as far as character defects or just flaw, you know, whatever.
Most of what I suffer from today is what I cheated on yesterday.
So, if I didn't quite tell it all in the four steps, you know, or if I didn't dig deep enough in six and seven to, you know,
I want to rebrand one of my deep.
No, that's just.
Indeed, that's just me, baby.
You know, no.
So, I would say, you know, I talked about living out loud earlier.
I would say that that makes sense to me.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
It sure does.
And I've learned so much from you over the years.
And it's been kind of cool being one of your fans along the way.
And I have to admit, there are some meetings that, for a while there, that you were kind of a weekly regular in that on the occasions that you do make it there.
And I know one of the rooms, unfortunately.
The elevator broke to the second floor and put a real barrier to you being able to get to that meeting.
And it's always good to see you in meetings and hear your words of wisdom.
And it's an amazing story that you tell, Dan.
Thank you, Howard.
I feel super blessed.
And, hey, without you, there is no me, brother.
Yeah, I love that.
That's a beautiful sentiment to end with, too.
And I want to thank you for being.
On the AA Recovery Interviews podcast and hope that, I mean, my hope is that everybody listens to it, people who need it, people who don't need it, people who are just seeking hope and experience and spirituality and all those other good things.
You've brought them today, brother.
You really have.
And I love you.
And you're one of my favorite people on the program and just in life in general.
And you know that if there's ever anything I can do for you, I will.
Love you, too, brother.
Thanks for doing this, Dan.
Absolutely.
Well, my friends, that's a wrap for today's episode of AA Recovery Interviews.
Thanks again to Dan D. for sharing his story.
And thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed AA Recovery Interviews, will you please tell others how to listen to it?
Think of it as a little AA service work that spreads the word about this rich and meaningful listening experience.
It's yet another helping hand we can all extend to alcoholics everywhere.
Listen to all the interviews in this podcast series.
Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, and other podcast providers.
Or tell Siri, Google Assistant, or Alexa, play AA Recovery Interviews podcast.
Or visit our website, aarecoveryinterviews.com, to hear every show to date.
If you want to email me directly, it's Howard at aarecoveryinterviews.com.
This podcast strictly adheres to AA's 12 traditions and all general service office guidelines for safeguarding anonymity online.
I pay all production costs, and no one receives financial gain from the show.
AA Recovery Interviews and my guests do not speak for or represent AA at large.
This podcast is simply my way of giving back to AA that which has been so freely given to me.
The next episode of AA Recovery Interviews is on the way, so keep coming back.
It'll be here soon.
I'll see you next time.
I'm your host, Howard L., and I'm an alcoholic,
sober since January 1, 1988, one day at a time.
I'm grateful you've joined us.
AA Recovery Interviews is the podcast where Alcoholics Anonymous members
from around the world share their extraordinary stories
of experience, strength, and hope.
I invite you to scroll through my extensive catalog
of more than 125 awesome AA interviews on any podcast app
or at the website aarecoveryinterviews.com.
Every episode is unique, inspiring, engaging, and meaningful.
Each story is a powerful testimony of the recovery available to all in AA.
So sit back and enjoy this encore episode of my August 2021 interview
with Dan D., whose sobriety date is February 1986.
When I showed up in AA,
Dan already had a couple years sober and was only 20 years old.
But his qualification for AA was gleaned from a difficult childhood
that included divorced parents at age three,
after which a rageful alcoholic became Dan's stepfather at age six.
From a childhood rife with family dysfunction, fear, and uncertainty,
Dan emerged into adolescence,
where he found alcohol and drugs to soothe the inner turmoil and emotional pain.
Left largely undiagnosed,
and checked by his disarrayed family,
Dan was free to run the streets as a teenager,
while his budding alcoholism and drug addiction
were paving the way to certain ruin.
By the time he was an older teen,
cocaine had taken over Dan's life,
and he started stealing from his employer
and robbing houses to support his habit.
At 18, he stepped over the line
by robbing his parents' home for the umpteenth time,
down to the carpet.
Their ultimatum to Dan was either go into treatment
or be booted out onto the street.
He spent 90 days in treatment,
followed by an intensive AA program,
in which he was guided by a thorough sponsor
and several old-timers into service-oriented sobriety
that continues to this day.
But Dan's story became truly extraordinary in 1994,
when, with eight years in the AA,
he somehow managed to stay sober
after being diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.
MS is an incurable and disabling disease
that attacks the brain, spinal cord,
and the brain.
It affects the brain and the entire central nervous system.
After eight years of sobriety,
Dan's prospects with MS were those of certain pain,
constant struggle, and debilitation of his entire body.
But he has endured MS
by utilizing the spiritual tools of the program
to battle that chronic disease.
What amazes me most about Dan
is how he has taken his experience fighting MS
and put it into practical use in his AA program.
Residing in the center of AA,
as Dan calls it,
his service work with newcomers and as a sponsor
is incredibly inspiring to anyone seeking sobriety.
I'll let Dan tell you the rest of the story.
I'm confident you'll come away with a new perspective
of experience, strength, and hope
told from Dan's unique and inimitable point of view.
So, listen closely for many gifts over the next hour,
served up by my friend and AA brother, Dan D.
I'm Dan D. I'm an alcoholic.
Thanks for identifying.
I always do that, Dan,
just to make this sound a little bit more like a meeting.
Whenever it was I started to put this thing together,
you were one of the guys I had in mind
that I wanted to interview somewhere along the way.
And I'm sorry it's taken us this long to get it together,
but, you know, the good interviews just go on and on and on
on this podcast.
And so I want to really thank you for doing this today.
Absolutely.
So, the first thing I'd like to know, Dan,
is how are you feeling today?
Today has been decent.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I'm feeling okay.
Family's good.
Kids are good.
Yeah.
My health is a bit challenging of late,
but just taking it a day at a time.
Yeah, that's kind of what I was asking about
because I know that your alcoholism
has informed certain parts of your life,
but you've been sober a long time now, right?
What, about 35 years?
Correct.
What's your sobriety date?
217, 86.
The reason I was asking about how you're feeling
is because, you know,
we've got this deadly disease called alcoholism
that we have arrested,
but, you know,
you and other people in the program,
but you're one of the closest to me
that I know has another major health challenge going on
in addition to staying sober
and one that I believe needs to be talked about
and acknowledged,
and that's why I always ask you how you're feeling.
How long were you in the program
when you first got diagnosed?
June 9th of 94, I was diagnosed,
so I guess eight years.
And you were diagnosed with?
Multiple sclerosis.
Multiple sclerosis.
It's just, over the years,
it's gotten more challenging.
Yeah.
And pretty rough now.
I used to see you when I first came in.
I saw you running around.
You were just this young guy that was on fire,
it looked like, with the program.
So you were sober, you said,
eight years before the MS was diagnosed.
What was your initial feeling whenever you heard that?
Wow.
That, just how am I going to live with this,
was the same year we got married.
Mm-hmm.
Diagnosed June of 94.
Mm-hmm.
We got married September of 94.
Wow.
So I've been sober a while,
and I was plenty submerged in recovery.
You know, I called my sponsor,
and I started calling other people,
and I just leaned into the program.
Mm-hmm.
But I was pretty fearful,
just not knowing what it's going to entail,
how bad will it get,
does God have my back, has he got me here?
You know, I mean, I know he got me here,
but does he have me here?
Yeah.
So I was all over the map.
I wonder about that.
And it's like, when people come into the program,
they get some spirituality.
Is it conditional on the way they're feeling at that time,
or do they get the spirituality that gives them the assurance
that they'll be able to face future things?
What kind of spiritual condition were you in
when you first got your diagnosis?
You know, decent.
I'd worked the steps several times by that time.
Yeah.
I'd been to, you know, I went to Holy Name Retreat
like three or four a year.
But I'd been to Boatloader Retreat,
I'd taken other people through the steps.
So I was pretty steeped in spirituality.
Mm-hmm.
I was pretty comfortable, but it's still kind of,
what?
You know, it's incurable, it's debilitating,
it can be crippling.
I mean, it's a pretty heavy diagnosis.
So even with a whole lot of faith,
I had some fear out.
Yeah.
How did you process it at that time?
Just taking it in 24-hour chunks.
You know, it really always got down to,
God's got me this far, you know,
surely everything's going to be okay in the end.
So if it's not okay, it's not the end.
You know, I clung on to funny little sayings here and there,
but really I just leaned into the program.
Yeah.
The people that care about me, including my now wife.
Yeah, yeah.
Whenever that happened,
do you recall any gratitude for having gotten sober
and worked the steps that you had the tools
to then address yet another disease?
A hundred percent.
I won't say that I got it in real time, Howard.
I would say looking back five years after that
or when we've had our second child,
you know, as life went on and certainly my condition,
as I stated in the opening, has gotten worse over the late.
I'm in a wheelchair.
I'm, you know, really challenging now.
But yes, absolutely.
I've had to, at some point, had some rough nights, Howard.
I wake up and say, okay, well, it's just me and God
or it's just me, you know?
So, I mean, it's, he has to be in the equation.
So, yeah, looking back was a lot easier.
I would not say in real time.
I just synced up spiritually, got five bars on my G drive
and said, let's do this.
It wasn't like that.
Yeah, I get that.
Well, so whenever that was going on,
were you the only guy that you knew who had,
not just MS, but another disease that they were living with
that other members in the program knew about?
So, upon my first diagnosis,
I didn't really know many of my MS.
I didn't really know many people in the program
with other illnesses like that.
But what happens is your phone starts ringing.
Hey, I got some guy that has muscular dystrophy
or had pancreatic cancer.
You know, phone starts ringing with other people
who have other chronic illnesses, things like that.
And while I don't have cancer, you know,
John, another guy that you know,
I didn't have cancer and he didn't have MS.
But we got together and talked about
just really chunky crap
that normally you don't have anywhere to go to.
So, yeah, things presented themselves
through the fellowship
that allowed us all to grow.
So, and I still get,
hey, Dan, I got a guy that's his,
that I sponsor.
His wife was just diagnosed.
And would you be okay if I give her your,
you know, lives in California.
So, somebody you'll never meet.
Right.
That's the spouse of it.
So, of course, this is where the fellowship is powerful
and you share your experience, you know,
and strengthen hope.
Yeah, and that's a great sentiment.
In fact, one of the most precious times in my sobriety
has been when you and I and a handful of other men
were going over and having the meetings at John's house
when he was on his, literally on his deathbed.
And it was such a moving opportunity
for us to be able to be there together
and holding the meeting.
And what's interesting about it, Dan,
is that I interviewed Diane early on in this series
and got to hear about what it was like for her
when we were doing that for John.
And he was a beautiful man.
As he was getting closer and closer to passing,
Right.
I would meet him more and more.
We would go to Starbucks, right?
Uh-huh.
And he would, you know, he would bitch, you know,
Diane's being negative.
I need positive people around me.
You know, she thinks I'm going to die.
I'm like, John, you are.
She has the right to feel.
Basically, when you get called to the,
you know, it's time.
It's time to say something to him in that moment.
I needed to comfort him to comfort her.
You're going to, you know, she has the right.
So it gets pretty intense when you talk about this stuff.
So what was going on in your life
when you were growing up that predicted
the need for AA somewhere down the line?
What was early life like in Dan D's experience?
Of course.
So youngest of five,
and my real father died when I was 10.
And I got sober.
I was 18.
Wow.
So my mom had gotten remarried to another alcoholic.
My dad died of alcoholism.
He did.
Says it on his death certificate.
Doesn't say cirrhosis or heart alcoholism.
That's unusual, isn't it?
Correct.
So he died when I was 10.
My mom got remarried to another drunk.
Uh-huh.
And his,
his addiction was,
I mean,
his abuse,
you know,
it was an interesting time growing up in an alcoholic home,
just the mayhem.
And so,
you know,
just running the streets.
And I mean,
I just got in trouble early.
Yeah.
At 12,
13,
14,
you know,
and so by the time I was 18,
Howard,
I was already in trouble.
You know,
I wasn't even legal to drink.
Yet I'm already infested with this disease.
So,
I,
I don't blame it on the upbringing of the family,
but,
uh,
you know,
it is hereditary.
My real dad died of it.
Do you remember as a child ever saying to yourself,
man,
that's not going to be me when I get older,
my real father,
they got divorced when I was like three.
Uh,
and then he died when I was 10.
So they weren't living together.
Okay.
I barely remember my dad.
I see.
Uh,
they said he was a good man.
He just drank too much.
He couldn't not drink.
And so I don't remember much of that.
My stepfather was pretty much a raging alcoholic.
I mean,
when he drank,
it just got crazy in the house.
I mean,
shotgun blast.
I mean,
it was,
it was pretty intense around the house.
So yes,
I did not want to,
I saw the dis ease part of this disease living right in my house with my
stepfather and how he treated my mom.
And all of us when he was drunk.
So yes,
I got a front row seat of what not,
but I'm already sober by at 18.
So,
uh,
well,
I don't want to do that.
Well,
I don't,
you know,
I would say it would be through my stepdad,
not from my dad.
Yeah.
So how old were you when your mom remarried or when your stepdad came into the picture?
I think six 73,
I was born in 67.
Yeah.
Six years old.
Okay.
So he comes into your life.
Things start to get progressively worse for you.
And so the next 12 years you're under his roof.
Correct.
Wow.
Must've been the tumultuous time in your family.
Yeah.
But they let me roam.
I mean,
I was running the streets be gone for two or three days without,
I mean,
you know,
you're in trouble when you run away from home and they don't look for you.
Yeah.
You just show up through.
In other words,
there was no,
no oversight.
There was no borders,
no anything.
So that's why I got in trouble.
So young.
I just,
I went zero to a thousand miles an hour.
Just,
you know,
hit my addiction at a young age turned out to be a blessing,
but didn't didn't think so.
Where were you chronologically amongst your siblings?
Youngest of five.
You're the youngest of five.
So did you get any ideas on how to live life or how to survive in this crazy home?
You were in from your older siblings or was it all self-taught?
You know,
always again,
not in real time,
but later you pick up on stuff,
but I'll say this,
and this will give you a feeling for the addiction.
My stepfather's disease live in our house.
Yeah.
When you turned 18 and some of them 17,
you're out.
Didn't matter if you went to college or just moved out on your own.
In other words,
nobody stuck around.
It was 17 and out 18 and out.
Nobody came back.
You know,
some kid graduated from college and didn't get a job immediately and they moved back.
No,
it was run.
Well,
how long,
how many years were you alone in that house where everybody else was out?
The youngest,
the closest to me,
Howard was about two years.
He went to college.
And so I was there really about two years where it was just me,
my mom,
and my stepdad and that's 16 to 18,
which is when it got the worst for me.
Selling drugs got kicked out of high school.
How old were you when you started acting out and started running the streets figuratively and literally?
Yes.
I'll give you from 12 to 18.
I can do it pretty quick.
Started drinking at 12.
I just started with alcohol,
little sippy sip.
You know,
it was,
it was adorable.
Hey,
I'll have another one of those.
And it did not end up adorable when I was 18.
But anyway,
started with a little bit of alcohol and then a lot of alcohol.
And then I think what got me Howard is,
uh,
well,
alcohol was always there.
It was my sweetheart,
you know,
at age 13,
14,
but I added stuff.
Our book talks about switching,
you know,
we switched drugs or switched,
but I didn't switch.
I added,
so I kept alcohol.
I mean,
I started on alcohol and I kept drinking more and more and more.
Right.
And then I added marijuana.
I didn't,
I didn't switch to marijuana.
So,
so my alcohol still went up and my,
my marijuana,
my weed went up.
And then after three months of six months of that,
I added Quaaludes and mandrakes and,
you know,
speed.
I mean,
I kept going on and on adding stuff while still smoking weed.
So that's not a winning formula,
you know,
yeah.
By the time I was 16,
I would say I started doing a heavier cocaine in particular.
I know this is Alcoholics Anonymous,
but I started doing cocaine alcoholically.
I'll say it that way.
That really expedited stuff as well.
I mean,
foot went down on the speedometer and it just went a million miles an hour.
And that really got me to my finish line quicker.
I'll bet.
Well,
I've heard that from a number of my guests who had the cocaine in their lives as well.
Now,
well,
you just snorted.
Were you snorting cocaine or were you doing anything with pre-basing or crack?
No crack smoking it and snorting.
Okay.
You were never an IB drug user.
I imagine it was next,
but correct.
So you're 16 years old and you're starting to do cocaine.
Where does a 16 year old find the money to be able to afford a daily cocaine habit?
So I was working for a cleaners.
I started selling,
uh,
to employees and then I would drive the truck and drop it off to certain locations.
And so I was making basically $42 a day.
Um,
I may,
I don't remember.
This was 38 years ago.
I was third 16.
But anyway,
uh,
I would make,
you know,
50 bucks a day.
Well,
I had a $300 a day coke habit.
So plus the weed and the alcohol,
all the others.
So,
I basically started stealing,
start stealing from the cleaners little by little,
just chipping,
you know,
60 81,
whatever.
And then I started stealing from my parents house little by little,
taking whatever it could.
And then I started fricking Robin houses,
you know,
literally kicking into,
you know,
I mean,
I had friends with me that would do it,
but I'm not talking to armed robbery.
I just mean,
uh,
so,
I mean,
what do you do when you have a 300,
a dollar a day drug habit and you make 50 bucks,
you either quit or you start stealing shit.
Were you found out by your folks?
Did they ever confront you with that?
Well,
February 1st of 86 February 2nd,
sometime around then I came home one day and I took basically everything out of my parents house.
I just backed up a truck and took them to the carpet.
I mean,
uh,
my dealer had a place by the flea market that he would take everything.
So I took,
you know,
VH.
Well,
they weren't,
they were beta max member.
Betama.
Yeah.
Anyway,
I would take videos and like in table and there's nothing he wouldn't take for drugs.
So I cleaned my parents out.
Wow.
So I was,
I was literally living on the streets for two weeks because I thought they were going to shoot me.
And so that's when I started,
I would go over to friends,
house and they'd let me in.
I'll sit,
I unlock a window and then go back,
you know,
the next morning and have their maid make me a sandwich while I went upstairs and stole from their parents.
I mean,
it was pretty intense.
Howard.
Yeah.
Sounds like it.
I mean,
who are these running buddies you had at the time?
Who,
who were your partners in crime?
What did,
were you part of a little gang of guys or were you working mostly on your own?
I mean,
I'm not in touch with any of them anymore.
I imagine some of them outgrew it and became CEO.
And I mean,
I'm sure that happened.
Yeah.
I'm sure there's a couple of them in jail,
you know,
too.
I don't know.
But I took the program serious when it said distance yourself from your buddies that,
you know,
you're,
you're using buddies.
So I took that serious.
Now,
did your stepfather at this time,
did he ever attempt to get sober?
It did.
He got sober March 9th of 83.
Uh huh.
So he was sober those last three years.
Still pretty raging,
you know,
pretty crazy in the house,
but he was sober.
Let me ask you how that informed your understanding of AA to be with somebody who goes from being the way they are drinking to going into AA,
but it still seems like they're just the same.
How did that make you feel about the AA program?
Um,
I don't recall really how it made me feel.
I just knew that's not what I wanted.
I didn't want,
I didn't want to end up like that.
We drive drunk or whatever you want to call it.
But I did appreciate the fellowship part of it.
He always had people around.
I mean,
he was a good man.
He was just a raging alcohol.
So he always had people,
Hey,
this is so-and-so they're going to be here for Thanksgiving.
You know,
he always had people over and stuff like that.
So I did appreciate the fellowship.
I went to these clubs,
Howard.
I mean,
I grew up in AA.
Sure.
I went to Alateen,
Alatot,
but my goodness,
he was in the,
forget the name of the place out in Katy,
my stepfather,
when he,
when he got sober in 83.
And,
uh,
I went to the club back in the day.
And so,
yeah,
I kind of grew up in AA.
And looking back,
can you point to anything that you heard or learned as a tot or a teen that influenced you to either getting into the program sooner or later?
I went to spend the treatment center.
Correct.
February 16th of 86.
I walked home that day.
I thought they were going to shoot me.
Right.
Because I'd stolen everything out of their house.
Anyway,
uh,
they said,
you got two choices.
You can keep walking because we've had enough of your ass or you can go to treatment.
Uh-huh.
It's set up for you to go to treatment.
I said,
I'll take door number two.
So I've been sober ever since.
So getting in treatment,
being on a young people's unit,
uh,
I would say I was drawn to that,
you know,
and then getting,
you know,
I spent 60 days,
you know,
in a 28 day program.
So getting out and doing aftercare and starting retreats immediately,
uh,
the fellowship kicked in really early for me and I took it very serious.
So I learned more.
I just needed a home.
I needed a,
you know,
I needed a home base and I was just drawn to recovery.
Howard.
So when you were new in AA,
uh,
there were still a bunch of old timers running around at that time.
Some of the legends of,
of Houston AA.
Did you find you were hanging with the young people more than the old people?
So yes,
we were,
you know,
got out,
it was a young people militia back then.
I mean,
it was,
you know,
you got in young and,
uh,
you just stayed at it,
you know?
So both,
I would say I went to the 10 o'clock meeting at night.
We'd started going down to the men's center to see Francis wise meeting on Sunday nights.
And he would be,
he ended up being my sponsor.
Some years later before he died November of 92,
Francis was my sponsor when he died.
Francis,
why so Frenchie look George P I don't know if,
you know,
so I always respected the senior guys.
Then I got introduced to Alder and Bel Air men and all that.
So I wouldn't say I hung around him as much.
I would draw from them,
their wisdom and their experience in recovery.
And then ultimately got Francis to sponsor me.
He was 40 years older than me,
but,
uh,
I would say it's a blend of the two.
When you were 18 coming into AA,
I've actually sponsored guys who got sober even earlier than that.
And you know,
14,
15 years old.
And one of the things they say is they never had the opportunity to do what so many people had done that fueled their alcoholism and drug addiction.
Did you ever give that much thought?
Did you ever give that much thought about things that maybe you missed as a later teenager or early 20 something that everybody else seemed to get to do the one glaring thing Howard in this capacity that jumped out college I blew off college I just can't believe I've been able to make a good living for myself and my family obviously I met a girl got married and you know in 88 I met my bride now and married 94 like I told you earlier but didn't go to college.
I didn't go to college.
I didn't go to college.
I didn't go to college.
I have zero college credit hours so I would say because of my addiction and then I University of AA I've just joined y'all you know and leaned into the program but I do wish that I went the traditional route in some sort of you know the college route but God's got my back I mean I ended up working around it making a good living for myself but I would say that's the one blind spot that caught up.
Yeah I know I know some other guys in the.
Program you and I both do who skip the college pathway and just went straight into business or or doing other things and a lot of those guys are still sober today and the wisdom that they bring to the program into their sponsors and to meetings absolutely belies the fact that they don't have a college education right and yet the flip side of that is those fast talking no dolls who come in with a fancy degrees and they can't seem to stay sober.
Of course you know.
I've got plenty of smart people from you know who went got college degrees who have terrific recovery that serves them well right at the time that you had the opportunity to go to college did you ever seriously consider it no never consider it just blew it off so what were meetings like for you in the early days did you enjoy going to meetings absolutely so it depends on which you know I started doing a lot of men's meetings.
Oh yeah.
Probably.
Five years into my recovery I started doing quite a bit of men's meetings we would go out to Deer Park all over the place in Pasadena so we would hit meetings all over the place and then doing the men's meetings was excellent Howard because you know there was big book studies there were step studies you know you couldn't share one of the alderman street if you hadn't worked the steps you couldn't share if you remember I remember that yeah.
So they'll call.
On you and you know you're on step three and it's a four step meeting they will cut you off if you hadn't done you know well this is what I'm going to do and you know so yeah you learn that these men are serious about their recovery because it's a serious addiction so I would say a blend of the two going men's meetings and also hanging around some of the younger folks you know I needed a blend of the two but it was I did enjoy that.
Obviously getting sponsees and learn how to sponsor others and then yeah and I was diagnosed with MS not long after that I got married so other experiences just added value to my life and therefore experience so that I can reach still younger and older people.
That's important for the women or even some of the men who are listening to these podcasts could you explain what the attraction or importance of men's meetings.
Is to you in the course of your recovery versus let's say a mixed meeting of course so obviously the world of COVID I'm not getting out as much now so this is not a now feeling but you just get to talk about I don't know it seems like everybody's more honest less ego you don't have to worry about this girl here's that or you know you just lay it out there.
So I think.
I think it's that I think it's just the comfort level of a smaller ego which I'm just another man in the boat let's do you know my arms are tired of paddling I hand it to the next man so the camaraderie the fellowship and just the ability to be gutless and plus that you see one guy just hey man I just want y'all to know that I was just diagnosed with so and so I'm having a really hard time and you know you might get emotional or something.
I'll get there was no cell phones back when I got sober but you'll start getting you know later on in recovery you start getting text and hey man why don't you call that and so there's just so many opportunities for growth even through people's pain yeah even today that that's why I love the fellowship so much.
It's so important to have that connection with others and men's meetings allow for a type of sharing that might be a little bit more reserved in a mixed meeting.
But.
That's why I try and do a mixture of men's meetings and mixed meetings as well.
So when you were going through your steps for the first time you got yourself a sponsor when you first came in.
Correct.
How long did it take for you to work through the 12 steps.
We had to work through four in treatment.
So within 60 days I finished the first three in row by four.
Was it an AA based fourth step or was it one of these treatment center massaged fourth.
Steps with 150 yes no check the box question.
No it was double a good to the core right out of the book my sponsor I had to back up and do one two three you know with him but we worked all 12 steps right from the book.
I mean especially my first month so probably nine months it took me to work all 12.
Did he get you on top of sponsoring other men when you were done 100 percent working with others.
And so once you you know got to give it away.
Way to keep it right.
It's just that's what you do.
You pass the baton.
So every sponsor I've had or every time I've worked the steps that's the deal.
You come in come all the way in sit all the way down work the steps and then reach out to the new either the new guy or you know had it all all kinds of ways.
People have come back in after going back out.
But yes it's sponsoring other men over the years has been very rewarding.
We'll be right back.
My friends if you're enjoying a recovery interviews I invite you to check out my latest audio book Alcoholics Anonymous the story of how more than 100 men have recovered from alcoholism.
This is the word for word cover to cover reading of the first edition of the big book published in 1939.
It's a relaxing yet meaningful and engaging way to listen to the big book anytime any place.
Have a free listen at Audible iTunes or Amazon.
While you're there.
Search for my other audio book Lost Stories of the Big Book 30 original stories missing from the third and fourth editions of Alcoholics Anonymous.
It's also available from Amazon as a Kindle book or in paperback.
If you'd like to read along you're going to love it.
And we're back.
I know a number of the men that you sponsor and I've had some of them on the show and you can tell the quality of a man's sobriety by the quality of his sponsee sobriety.
And I've noticed that.
I've heard a lot about you a lot over the years.
You're a high quality sobriety kind of guy.
Appreciate that.
Now between the years of 86 and let's say 94 when you got the MS diagnosis had you experienced any major upheavals or losses?
You mentioned getting married of course that's a good thing that's a gift type thing.
But before you got to the MS did you encounter anything that shook your program up or sent you spinning out towards the edge?
Really no.
Let's say no to that.
That was the first real heavy event that happened post recovery.
So about the time that you first got the diagnosis were you pretty much on the top of your game with regard to AA?
How was your spiritual condition going into that period?
Right.
Yeah.
You don't ever want to say you're on top of your game.
But I was pretty synced up with sponsees, hitting my meetings, doing my readings and prayer.
So yeah.
I was spiritually fit let's say and really connected.
I mean I called my sponsor.
Well I think I went to actually the men's center when I was first diagnosed with MS.
But yeah I would say that.
How much in advance of going and actually having it diagnosed were the symptoms starting to show up for you?
So symptoms are totally different today.
Obviously it's been 27 years.
But I had vision problems.
My hands were numb.
Balance was getting bad.
My legs were not as bad as they are now.
But vision was the biggest issue.
I saw double.
Part of my MS was a diagnosis called diplopia which was double vision.
So basically for a year I couldn't drive.
My wife took me.
It was that year, 94.
She took me to work.
I mean it was pretty intense.
The workarounds and stuff.
But that went away.
So 94 to 98 I had symptoms.
Mm-hmm.
And then from 98 to 08 it was pretty much dormant or asymptomatic.
And then 2008, 9, 10, you know it's gotten worse over the years.
And then I got in a wheelchair in 2016 I think.
And that's where I'm at today.
Yeah.
I've been going to meetings with you throughout that whole time.
So I've had a chance to see as an outsider the progression of that particular disease.
And the reprieve you got in the middle of it though.
I mean you said that there was a period where things were dormant.
Did you feel back to normal for a while?
Yeah.
I would say that's a good way to say it.
Back to normal.
I mean I knew I had it.
But yet it wasn't showing up.
And so I wasn't in denial.
I just, if it works don't fix it or whatever.
So I just went with life.
We had a kid, our first child in 2000, second child in 2002.
I remember asking our neurologist, hey can I have kids?
I mean what are the chances of them getting this?
Obviously I didn't want that.
And they said look, no we can't.
It can't be hereditary.
My older sister has MS also.
My oldest sister.
But they said we can't tell you anymore that your kids will have it.
And they won't.
So we just said alright God, let's have some kids.
And if they have, we'll deal with that.
And they turned out to be perfectly healthy.
So God bless them.
God's got my back.
He does.
The day that you got your diagnosis, what was that like?
It was just heavy.
It was just the not knowing.
How bad is it going to get?
Is it going to be painful?
How am I going to stay sober through this?
How am I going to stay married through this?
What will I be able to do?
What won't I be able to do?
So the fear of the unknown is what really crept in.
Even though I was,
had a relationship with a higher power that was strengthened over time.
And I get that.
But the fear does creep in of the unknown.
Just not knowing how bad it might get.
What's that going to look like?
So I would say that.
So you and I have heard over the years that fear and faith can't exist in the same instance.
And I'm a believer that you can have a lot of faith.
You can believe in God.
And know that God is taking care of you.
And has your back.
But still you're feeling pain.
I think it's possible to feel both feelings at the same time.
I understand that.
Yeah.
They coexist for me too.
Even still.
I've lived years on the corner of Faith Boulevard and Fear Avenue.
I mean right there on the corner.
And I try and not let the fear take me over.
Do you,
in your specialized knowledge and experience with MS,
do you find that men who become your sponsees are attracted to you because of that?
Or do you find that men who are facing debilitating diseases other than alcoholism,
do you seek them out?
What does that look like for you?
Well, I'll take the first part of that first.
The men that I sponsor,
I would say it this way, Howard.
The men that I sponsor have appreciated
the diversity of me.
My wife and I have been together a long time.
I'm raising kids.
I'm submerged in corporate America.
I've been sober a long time.
I got native Houstonian.
I mean I've got a lot of really quality relationships,
friends in recovery and outside.
So I think most of the sponsees have appreciated my experience.
And then you add,
incurable debilitating illness like MS,
and that's added experience of maneuvering through life,
just living with some really chunky stuff and still being happy,
still wanting to,
you know,
I always said one of my sayings was if I died tomorrow,
I'd want to come back as me.
And I still feel that way.
You know,
I'm not in love with every chapter in the book of Dan,
but it's a good book.
And then the second part of that,
that was the sponsor part of the sponsees.
Absolutely.
Howard,
like Alex L.
I'm talking to him at least two days a week.
Now he's up in Michigan just to check on him.
He has another diagnosis on top of his MS.
And so I do talk to people in recovery.
I love talking to people in recovery with other,
you know,
with other debilitating illnesses and how we jointly maneuver through life with
them,
even if they're not all with MS.
And that's a whole special grain of the fellowship that's really unmatched.
It's,
it's unbelievable.
Similar to the men's meeting stuff I was talking about back earlier.
You just get,
you're uniquely qualified to talk about some really tough stuff that,
you know,
you get them,
they get you.
So I think both sides of your question is,
is valid for me.
As I recall,
you were involved at some point,
maybe you still are with a non AA group is,
is,
are you still involved with that,
that support group?
And what does that mean for you?
So I'm not involved in that anymore.
I think for about five years,
I would say I went to a chronic illness support group and,
um,
it was excellent.
Howard,
there was about eight to nine people in the group that we all had different
stuff.
I mean,
I was the only alcoholic that also had another,
but we all had different stuff.
We had MS,
we had ale.
I mean,
we all,
but they were chronic illnesses and there was no,
you know,
it was,
you had to be really chronically the way the lady vetted them that ran it.
Anyway,
it was outstanding.
So,
um,
I could take a lot of my fellowship stuff from AA and let it kind of creep
into that group a little bit,
as far as how we shared with each other.
So I took my experience and string and hope.
I took that into my support group,
but I had to drop it when we started four years ago or so,
but it was outstanding.
And what a gift to them,
especially,
I mean,
to people who don't have AA to be able to,
to be able to have the additional and added wisdom of somebody who's worked
a,
a spiritual program of recovery to bring that kind of energy into that kind
of group,
how meaningful that must've been to them.
I think so.
I certainly hope so,
but.
Oh,
I'm sure.
Well,
just the kind of guy you are.
You're a loving,
caring guy.
And,
uh,
I remember you mentioning along the way,
Dan,
the importance of AA and staying sober to your marriage and your relationship.
Uh,
with your family,
but in particular with your marriage,
I've heard you talk over the years about the work that you and your spouse
have had that has really been good for you.
And can you tell me what,
what affects AA has had on your marriage?
Um,
the benefits of working all the steps,
having a relationship with a higher power,
um,
taking other people through the steps,
um,
that has benefited me tremendously in my marriage.
In what ways?
Well,
just being authentic,
um,
head of the household type,
you know,
be a leader,
be just trying to be a spiritual lead,
you know,
um,
promoting prayer.
So I would say,
yeah,
I would say that the fellowship and all that kind of led me to,
uh,
I don't know,
I'm going to strengthen our relationship,
my wife.
Now,
over the years,
we've obviously,
you know,
been together that long.
We ended up doing some therapy,
which in my mind was excellent.
It wasn't like it was like,
yep,
we're investing in our relationship,
you know,
so to dig it up,
you know,
the exhumed the body and okay.
Well,
when I said,
yes,
I really meant,
you know,
43% of the time.
And so,
uh,
we've quite a bit of therapy over the years,
uh,
which has been beneficial.
It wasn't always fun.
That was maybe another chapter I'm not in love with,
but certainly strengthened our relationship.
The foundation,
uh,
it just re re tethered us so that we're sustainable for this,
for the very reason I'm in now,
which is my MS is worse than it's ever been.
Hmm.
So my relationship is strong.
That's good.
And that's something that you're,
you're blessed to have that kind of relationship.
And how about,
how about with regard to your kids,
AA and children?
Obviously,
you've been sober.
They've never seen you not sober.
What is AA meant to your relationship with your kids?
So obviously they know I don't drink.
They know I go to meetings and we've had the discussion with them about,
by the way,
you know,
it's your father's an alcoholic and,
you know,
just that you're susceptible to whatever the words are you could have the gene and just make
sure that you're mindful of that and so forth so arming them with just nowadays they find everything
on the internet more than their parents but you know sometimes they not to discredit my kids but
sometimes they don't hear anything we say but they definitely see everything we do right
so i think they just have known dad doesn't drink dad's in recovery i always have these people that
come over that i meet where do you know that guy how do you know so and so i mean kind of freaks
them out probably but uh yeah i think they see the fellowship in the program through me
through the quality of my relationships so i think it's a net plus for them
um and
then also having me never be off the grid since i've since they've known me so i think it's been
beneficial yeah it has in my life too and and i told my kids about all three of them sat them
down all together when they were relatively young and explained it in terms just like you said that
they could understand it in a way to appreciate it but seeing them become adults and having to
still make their own decisions about whether or not to engage in the kind of behavior i did
you know that's a that's a whole nother thing right so
we're talking about decades now what in addition to the struggles you've had with ms and certainly
the gifts that you've had with family and kids and and career success what have been some of the
other things that have really stuck out in the last couple of decades for you or maybe most
recently where you've looked at it and said this really shines the light on my aa program
oh quite a bit of stuff um having kids you know so 2010
i ended up all the medications for my ms and it was just crazy and so i ended up i went to my spot
drove to my sponsor's office he owned a treatment center at the time and said hey i'm just going
crazy i don't think i've gone back out i mean i didn't do anything i shouldn't do but i was like
i'm on too many meds and it was just all over the map and so uh we decided that i would go to
a treatment facility for relapse prevention i don't know if you remember this the 2010
so i ended up going to california for 41 days and uh for i call it a spiritual makeover but
i was just in trouble on all the meds and yeah antispasticity and the pain i mean it was just
i wasn't sleeping and all i did was sleep and then you know that's my ms was starting i told
you earlier 2008 is when it started coming back so
eight nine ten was just crazy getting much worse and um that's when you know i called my own
intervention and it was early enough thank goodness so that's one event that sticks out
by far because people wrote me while i was up there i worked the steps again
um a wife went up there family week and that was interesting and uh stayed in touch with a few of
those people over the years so that's one event kids obviously watching like my daughter's getting
ready in three days to move to austin to go to university of texas which i'm excited that's great
congratulations on that we went to greece and turkey together in 2015 i think it was right
before i got in the wheelchair so i mean there's tons of events like that but it's just life just
my life unfolding right in front of me even through the changes in my life and i'm just
there have been many blessings along the way and one of my more recent guests has talked about
living life out loud uh seems to me you're that kind of guy too huh oh i definitely live out loud
my life out loud yes that's a great statement um i i pride myself on being transparent or just being
raw how are you dan how are you doing today you know how much time do you have or you know i mean
just i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to
be honest with them no matter what i'm uh so i do i like to be that way i like it that god
made me that way so i agree yeah i get that have you ever faced situations where your sobriety has
been an intimidation to younger or more new members i'm sure some of that happened along
the way howard but nothing that was uncomfortable or a work around i mean if god wanted me to work
with somebody he'd put me in position and i'd be like i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead
and i'd be like i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to go ahead and i'm going to
be in position to you know so i i don't think that was really impenitent it was the other way around
i just other side of that when i was maybe two years sober or something i'm driving down to the
men's center to go into the sick room and there i am 19 or 20 years old and there's a guy in there
you know 78 years old been drinking his whole life and i'm going to show him something about
I mean, it was kind of like, you know, I go there, my little tie and my, it's like, what am I doing here?
But they, my sponsor told me to get down to the men's center and get in the sick room.
And I want you to smell the puke, you know, and know what that's like.
So I felt at times odd, like I really qualified to do this, but I just went.
They looked at me like, what is this kid going to teach me about recovery?
But teaching them that when your sponsor tells you to do something, you do it.
That's the lesson.
If you had to frame something to a newcomer or somebody who is beyond having hope about AA that would get the message across that you wanted to get across,
what would you say?
I would share my all-encompassing experience, and you've probably heard some of this.
It would be, hey, brother, my hope for you is that you come all the way.
You sit all the way in, you sit all the way down, you lean into us, be willing to work these steps, buy the warranty, because life's going to, you know, the 100,000 mile, I mean, it's.
You talk about buying the warranty, but I've often wondered, what does that warranty have in it that makes it so important?
Well, right.
I mean, the warranty is God, I offer myself to thee to build with me, is knowing the material.
It's the third step, getting on my knees, even when it was hard to get up from my knees.
I mean, it's just marinating in the book, recovery, and taking all those experiences to market, I call it, taking it to life.
So when you're diagnosed with an incurable, you know, God's got my, I think it's that, just sharing my experience with,
and plus the fellowship means so much to me.
Also, Howard.
Yeah.
But I would say that, and just being authentic, being real, like you said earlier, living out loud.
I think people appreciate my honesty with where I'm at.
That's one of my current winning formula.
I've had many over the years, but I think my two biggest, I had to come up with three, would be.
Humility and gratitude, those two.
That's what I land on today, 35 and some months sober, 53 years old, with multiple illnesses that want to kill me, alcoholism and MS.
But yet, I can't walk anymore.
I mean, I've got a lot of issues that need tissues, but gratitude and humility, and just, it's the same, leaning into the program, trusting y'all, saying yes.
When you get asked, you say yes.
When you get asked to tell your story, you know, taking kids through the steps, and then, you know, doing the step work myself.
I've done two ways where I've taken people through the steps and then worked it with them, basically.
Both of us did a third.
Both of us did a fourth.
Both of us did a fifth.
So, I am who you think I am, you know.
That's basically important to me.
That's a great way to think about it, too.
One of the guys who you sponsor, as a matter of fact, said something to me.
He said something to me recently about the idea of co-sponsorship.
In other words, we become so close to our sponsors that that sponsor-sponsee relationship becomes a two-way, you know.
And it's been that way from me and my sponsor, as well.
Have you found that with men you've sponsored?
Absolutely.
So, yes, over the years, including now, one of the guys that I sponsor now, I sponsored him for years when he got sober.
In 97.
I think it was.
And then we drifted for four or five years.
And then he came back to me about five years ago or maybe longer, like 2011, 12, something like that.
So, a couple years ago from now, when he had about 20 years, we worked the 12 steps again.
We both did it, like I just told you, the two-way, where we both worked all 12.
I read.
I read my fourth step to do my fifth step with my sponsee, right?
And so, it was intense.
So, basically, taking all that to market, like I said earlier, it's so beneficial.
You're so honest with each other.
And I was looking for a new sponsor.
It was time for me to switch gears.
I had a sponsor for 18 years.
He was fantastic.
But I just wanted something different.
So, I said, look, let's try out to one of my sponsees.
Would you be okay?
Would you be comfortable sponsoring me?
I know I've got 11 more years in you or whatever, but let's try it for a year.
So, we tried it for a year.
Just if it's uncomfortable, if it doesn't feel right, or if you're not able to share, you feel like.
And no, it's been fantastic.
So, Charlie D. is my sponsee and my sponsor, officially.
And it's, in my case, it's worked out for me.
Yeah, that's a great relationship to have, too.
And when he mentioned that, I knew you guys were close.
But, you know, to me, that puts the bow on top, right there.
That's the icing on the cake.
Being able to have that relationship that truly is, it kind of transcends the sponsor-sponsee relationship
and takes it to a whole other level, doesn't it?
I agree, completely.
Well, I usually like to leave a minute or two at the end for anything that you would just like to say extemporaneously
to the world of alcoholics.
Any number of whom might listen.
I would say this.
Most of what I suffer from today, as far as character defects or just flaw, you know, whatever.
Most of what I suffer from today is what I cheated on yesterday.
So, if I didn't quite tell it all in the four steps, you know, or if I didn't dig deep enough in six and seven to, you know,
I want to rebrand one of my deep.
No, that's just.
Indeed, that's just me, baby.
You know, no.
So, I would say, you know, I talked about living out loud earlier.
I would say that that makes sense to me.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
It sure does.
And I've learned so much from you over the years.
And it's been kind of cool being one of your fans along the way.
And I have to admit, there are some meetings that, for a while there, that you were kind of a weekly regular in that on the occasions that you do make it there.
And I know one of the rooms, unfortunately.
The elevator broke to the second floor and put a real barrier to you being able to get to that meeting.
And it's always good to see you in meetings and hear your words of wisdom.
And it's an amazing story that you tell, Dan.
Thank you, Howard.
I feel super blessed.
And, hey, without you, there is no me, brother.
Yeah, I love that.
That's a beautiful sentiment to end with, too.
And I want to thank you for being.
On the AA Recovery Interviews podcast and hope that, I mean, my hope is that everybody listens to it, people who need it, people who don't need it, people who are just seeking hope and experience and spirituality and all those other good things.
You've brought them today, brother.
You really have.
And I love you.
And you're one of my favorite people on the program and just in life in general.
And you know that if there's ever anything I can do for you, I will.
Love you, too, brother.
Thanks for doing this, Dan.
Absolutely.
Well, my friends, that's a wrap for today's episode of AA Recovery Interviews.
Thanks again to Dan D. for sharing his story.
And thank you for tuning in.
If you enjoyed AA Recovery Interviews, will you please tell others how to listen to it?
Think of it as a little AA service work that spreads the word about this rich and meaningful listening experience.
It's yet another helping hand we can all extend to alcoholics everywhere.
Listen to all the interviews in this podcast series.
Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, iHeartRadio, Spotify, Pandora, and other podcast providers.
Or tell Siri, Google Assistant, or Alexa, play AA Recovery Interviews podcast.
Or visit our website, aarecoveryinterviews.com, to hear every show to date.
If you want to email me directly, it's Howard at aarecoveryinterviews.com.
This podcast strictly adheres to AA's 12 traditions and all general service office guidelines for safeguarding anonymity online.
I pay all production costs, and no one receives financial gain from the show.
AA Recovery Interviews and my guests do not speak for or represent AA at large.
This podcast is simply my way of giving back to AA that which has been so freely given to me.
The next episode of AA Recovery Interviews is on the way, so keep coming back.
It'll be here soon.
I'll see you next time.
More Tapes You Might Like
Discussion
Be the first to share your thoughts on this tape.