Faith Never Asked What Step Are You Working — She Asked What Step Are You Living Today — Mary and Cecelia

Starting once, starting twice. Okay, we're going to have Cecilia come back up. Okay, now we're going to talk about the part of sponsorship that most of you know about, most of you have probably dealt with, and you've also probably had the most questions about. Because if you were like me, the first relationship I had in AA was with my sponsor. And I had never had one with another person before that was based on anything that you're supposed to have when you have a relationship with another person. So it was the most significant for me. And I've asked one of my sponsees, and I will tell you that I do have sponsees here because when I said we're doing a workshop, they said they would be here. So I do know that if you make it fun and you set an example, that people do follow you. So I'm going to ask Mary P. to come up now. Hi, my name is Mary, and I'm an alcoholic. And a card-carrying member of Alcoholics Anonymous. I'll talk a little bit about that later. My home group is the Sobriety in the Country group in Mims, Florida. It's a relatively new group, if you ever get over to Mims. We got us a group there now. I'm also the GSR for that group. When Annette talked about service, and there was a question over here about the origin of the term service sponsor or service sponsorship, I can relate to that. I got sober in San Diego. I spent the first eight years of my sobriety in San Diego. And I never heard that used until I moved to Florida. I think I had a service sponsor the whole time. I think that my sponsor was a service sponsor as well as a traditional step and spirituality sponsor. I never knew anything other than being in service. I think that frequently we hear when we go to meetings and talk to other alcoholics that we do things the same way. As we did early in our recovery. Or the way that I learned it when I was new. To hear that and the way that I learned it when I was new was we did things that put us in contact with other alcoholics. And whether it's greeting, whether it's making coffee, setting up chairs, or being part of district, that's something that I've always known. But I didn't get a service. I didn't get a service sponsor until about a year ago. My sobriety date is September 6, 1993. I'm 18 years sober. And it wasn't until last year that I got an official service sponsor. Anyway, I'm not here to talk about that. I'm here to talk about stuff. Let me share with you what the process was for me when I selected my first sponsor. I had a lot of my criteria list. For my sponsor was pretty long. I, too, have the pamphlet. If you've never seen this or never used it, just as my predecessors here have mentioned, it's chock full of information about sponsorship. But it says in here that one of the questions is should sponsor and newcomer be as much alike as possible? And that's what I'm going to talk about. That's one of the questions. And if you were to have asked me that in my first couple of months of sobriety, I would say, you know, absolutely, yes, 100%. We have to have everything in common. And that's what I thought. You know, I looked for somebody who was close to me in age. And at that time, I smoked. So, you know, my sponsor had to smoke. You know, we needed to be able to have, you know, a couple of paths that were similar. Because I knew enough at that point that I was going to have to be talking about some things that were relatively sensitive in nature. And I didn't want to, I was concerned that if I talked to somebody who was older than me, that she wouldn't understand. I had a temporary sponsor. But before I had a temporary sponsor, let me tell you that the recovery home, I went through, a recovery home in San Diego, it's a relatively, it's been around for 50-something years. And the director, who was a friend of my dad's, that's how I ended up in the recovery home. My dad was an alcoholic. And my dad also was the one who 12-stepped me and got me into the program. And Faith was the director of the recovery home at the time that I was there. And we were told that we needed to have a sponsor within our first 30 days. And of course, as seriously as I took the program, I also wanted to do things the easier, softer way. If somebody could do it for me, that would be perfect. And I wanted Faith to be my sponsor. And she couldn't. It was a conflict of interest. But she did tell me that she would work the first step with me. And so we went out to dinner at a, you know, a place that's called the Red Fox Room in San Diego. It's an institution in the San Diego area. And it was a place where she and my dad used to do a lot of drinking. But it's a steakhouse, too. So we went out there for a steak dinner and I did my first step with Faith. And I don't know, I think I was maybe 20 days sober at that time. And that got me started. I got a temporary sponsor because there was a gentleman who said that there was this girl that she needed to, you know, she would be the one who would be my sponsor. And she was a friend of his. And, you know, like I said, the easier, softer way. So I asked this gal, Tammy, to be my sponsor. She lived about 50 miles away from where I did. She was in school. I did not have a car. But I did my first three steps with her. And on the way over here, Cecilia, we were talking about the third step. And I thought, when she mentioned that, I remembered doing my third step with Tammy. In her, she lived down at Imperial Beach in, you know, San Diego. And she had a trailer down there. And I remember that we went into, like, her office. And, and I remember getting down on my knees and saying the third step prayer and having that moment, you know, that is so essential to us. And around that time, you know, not long after that, she told me that she was too busy with school and that she could no longer sponsor me. And, of course, you know, I took that as rejection. And, oh, my God, what's wrong with me? But it was a blessing in disguise. And, you know, one of the things that I know a lot of us have learned is that there are no coincidences in the program. And this was not a coincidence that she was unavailable to me because the woman came into my life. Actually, the woman who was my sponsor had already been in my life. I just didn't know it. And, as I said, I had a long list of rules or criteria of what my sponsor was supposed to be like. And the woman who became my sponsor for the next four years did, maybe met one of them. She was about 70 years old at the time. And I was 30. And that, you know, that age gap, I thought, she used to come to the women's meetings that we had at the recovery home. And, like I said, I was looking for a sponsor, but I didn't know really what I was looking for. And a friend of mine, who was also in the home with me, after the meeting was over, she came running up to me and she said, Mary, I found you a sponsor. And she drug me into the kitchen where Billy was and she said, Billy, this is Mary. Mary, this is your new sponsor. And I was angry. You know, I was pissed. I'm like, what are you doing? You know, telling me who my sponsor is. But, well, I didn't say that out loud. It wouldn't have been right. But, Billy gave me her card and I called her and she became my sponsor for the meeting. For the next four years until she passed away. And, Billy smoked and that was a good thing. I'd go over to her house and we'd go up into her little office, into her little room. She'd open the window. We'd smoke our cigarettes and we'd do the steps. And, I started all over again. Although, I had done the first step twice. And, the first, I had done the first, second, and third with my temporary sponsor. I started all over at the very beginning with Billy and we did the steps. I remember after I did my fourth step and, you know, was maybe on the sixth at that point in time. Late one night, I panicked and I thought, I, you know, realized that I didn't, I had left something off my list. And, and I called Billy. I didn't tell you everything. I need to talk to you. And, I went over to her house and, and we went up to her room and opened the window and smoked our cigarettes and I told her the thing that I had left off and she just kind of looked at me like, she laughed. Is that it? And I'm like, yeah. And, she told me something about her experience. And that's how it works. You know, where, I would be able to share with her something, not strength or hope at that point in time, but, you know, I'd share with her something. I'd share with her whatever it was and she would tell me about her experience. Faith, as I mentioned earlier, stepped into the picture again after Billy had, had a stroke. And, she was unable to talk. And, I would go and visit Billy and, I would talk to her but she couldn't talk back to me. And, so I bumped into, to Faith at a meeting and I told her. And I said, you know, I, you know, I don't know what to do because I can go and I can see Billy and I can talk to her but she can't talk back to me. And, Faith said, well Mary, I'll be your temporary sponsor. You know, I'll fill in until Billy gets better. And, Billy never did get better. She ultimately passed away. And, and Faith just became my, my sponsor until I moved from Florida about four, I mean, from California about four years later. And, I still refer to Faith as my San Diego sponsor. I've been gone from San Diego for about ten years and I still talk to Faith every couple of months. I've never been without a sponsor. When I moved to Florida, I relocated in 2002 and I knew that the very first thing that I needed to do was plug in. And, at eight years sober, it felt very awkward, you know, because I had, had been in the same area with the same people for eight years. And, and it, I didn't really know how to walk up to someone and say, hey, will you be my sponsor? But I knew that I had to do that. I didn't know what it would take for me to drink again. I didn't know what that one thing might be. And if it was not having a sponsor, I didn't want to risk it. And so, I went to a women's meeting that was about a mile away from where I live. I lived and met a bunch of women there and met my next sponsor. Asked her to be my sponsor and, and she was until I left Florida to move to Titusville seven years ago. So, and then I had to do the same thing when I got here. And since I've been in Titusville, I have, I have had two sponsors. So, in the 18 years that I've been sober, I have had one, two, three, five sponsors. And as I said, I've never been without a sponsor. I've done the steps a number of times. I've done them with my sponsors and I've done them with my sponsees. I've participated in the Back to Basics program that was mentioned earlier and it's not conference approved literature, but it was very interesting and enlightening. I went to a meeting in Fort Myers that did it, the four week Back to Basic and I was able to do it. And I was able to do it and I was able to do it. And I was able to do it. I did that with a sponsee and then I went to a workshop when Wally P. came through, came through town and I left there with a card and was told that I was now a card carrying member of Alcoholics Not. I've been to a couple of different Joe and Charlie workshops where we've gone through the steps in the Joe and Charlie fashion and, you know, I've done a, my, you know, Faith, my San Diego sponsor used to have all of her sponsees two or three times a year. She would have all of her sponsees come to her house and we would use a different piece of literature to do the steps. I've done the steps using the Little Red Book, which I absolutely love the Little Red Book. I've done the steps using the 12-inch book and I've done the steps using the 12-inch book and I've done the steps using the 12-inch book and then another book that I can't remember the name of right now. But anyway, the point is is that doing the steps to me has been something that has just, it's been a natural thing to do and I can't, I couldn't imagine my program any other way. When I sponsor a show, people, when I sponsor women, we start all over at the beginning also. Even if I'm sponsoring somebody who has established sobriety, I feel that it's the best thing for me to do to get to know her better is to start at the first step. And we start at the first step and we go through and we do all 12 steps together. And that's an opportunity for me too. It talks about in working with women, it talks about working with women, it talks about working with others in the big book that nothing will so much ensure, I'm going to forget it now that I'm standing up here. Nothing will tell me out so much ensures immunity against an X-ray except for rigorous work with other alcoholics, whatever it is. And that's true, not just for the person who is being sponsored, but also for the sponsor. So, I'm not sure. So, any time that somebody asks me to work with them, I tell them, I tell her that I would like to start at the very beginning. And I also start with this. Because this really, it lays out what it is that sponsorship is and what sponsorship isn't. I've heard at meetings and over the years people talk about their sponsee asked for money. The sponsee, you know, borrowed my car and never brought it back or whatever. Whatever it was. And, did that happen? And the pamphlet talks about that, about what it's not. And to, go back to what I said about whether or not the newcomer and the sponsor should be the same or, you know, have things in common. It says in here that often newcomers, a newcomer feels most at ease with a sponsor of similar background and interest. However, many AAs say they were greatly helped by sponsors totally unlike themselves. Recently, when I went and asked the, my current sponsor to be my sponsor, she asked me why I was, I was picking, because she kind of fits the same mold as Billy. And, and she said, well, you know, what is it that, you know, why do you seem to pick, you know, older, older women? And I said, well, a lot of it has to do with how I was raised. Okay? And, when I grew up, there was the, you know, I was, respected my elders and, and, and I did what I was told and, and all. And I knew that if somebody who was, I guess, grandmotherly to me gave me a suggestion, I would, it would, I would be least likely to argue back. And, and so, and, and so I know that, I'm going to take suggestions from people that I respect. And, and, so my, my list, my criteria today are a lot different than my criteria were, you know, 18 years ago. And I want to know that my sponsor has a sponsor, that my sponsor has a sponsor. And that my sponsors work the steps. And my sponsor's sponsoring other people. And that's the case. And, let me see. I had a whole bunch of stuff to say and now I feel like I've run out of gas. How much time? You've got about about 15 minutes or so. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And you've got questions and answers too? The Little Red Book, it's a Hazleton little book, right? The Little Red Book, yes, it came with stools and bottles and, um, 24 hour. Yeah, it's, it's, again, uh, not the conference approved. But I love that book. And I don't know what it is about it. I guess maybe for me, the big book, the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous is where it's at. There's no question about that. You know, everything that I've learned in the program has come from the big book. And it's come to life through other members of the program. So, you know, I have gotten kind of like a living example of what's in the big book from other people in the program. You know, and I've been able to watch the steps. Faith used to always ask me, ask me when I would call her and say, you know, I'm, what's going on today? She would say, Mary, what step are you living today? And I would say, well, I'm not sure because I never thought about it like that. You know, we always talk about working the steps. You know, work. And the word work, of course, has a negative connotation to it. But, you know, faith kind of turned that around for me and would say, what step are you living today? And I started to view that and my life and other people in the program in the same way. What step is that person living today? What can I learn from that? And so, other people would bring that, the big book, to life for me. But, at the same time, the 12 and 12 gives us a different perspective of the steps. And then, the little red book kind of does that also for me, you know, with yet another take on it. It's kind of like, I guess, as a newcomer, I would go around and I would ask four or five people the same question until I got the answer that I wanted. In addition to my official sponsor, I had a whole lot of unofficial sponsors. You know, we call it a support group. You know, I have a support group today. Today, my support group doesn't necessarily consist of all alcoholic members. You know, my husband is not a member of Alcoholics Anonymous and he doesn't belong in AA, but he's part of my support group. My sister, the same thing. So, my family members today are part of my support group. They weren't necessarily, you know, 10 years ago or 15 years ago. It's not that we were estranged. It's just, you know, the relationship has evolved over the years as I have, you know. So, I had a whole lot of unofficial sponsors that people that I would be able to ask in the event that Billy or somebody wasn't available to me. You know, I didn't, I didn't know it at the time, but my, my sponsor, Billy, she suffered from depression. And there was a time and it might have been about two years into our, our relationship that she kind of went into hiding, I guess. You know, is, is, she kind of checked out and she, she'd quit driving by that point and I would pick her up for meetings because I, by that point, I had a car. And, I would pick her up for meetings and, and when I would call her and ask her if she wanted me to, oh, I'm not going to go tonight. And so we, we didn't talk as much as we had been and she wasn't going to as many meetings and like I said, I didn't know why, but it turned out the reason was because she was having an, she, she suffered from depression at that point in time. It was really bad. And, and she told me sometime later about this. And, she told me that she had considered very seriously and had picked up the phone a couple of times to call me to tell me that she couldn't sponsor me anymore. But that she never did. She never followed through on it and she was grateful that she didn't because it was, our relationship to her was that important. You know, and it wasn't me necessarily, but it was that relationship. It was that relationship between sponsor and sponsee that for her, she needed. And, she didn't know how much at the time that she needed that. So, I remember thinking, of course, you know, a lot of times back then it was all about me. And, and I remember thinking, what did I do? Why was she mad at me? Why didn't she want to talk to me? But that wasn't, you know, as I said, that wasn't the case. Sponsorship is important and working with staff is important. And today, I'm sponsoring a couple of women and I remember talking with Cecilia a little while ago about this and I feel like I'm, I feel like I'm at a crossroads right now with one of the gals that I'm sponsoring. And, you know, and again, it's come back to, you know, it's all about me. I must be doing something wrong, you know. And I remember talking to Faith about it and she said, is she still sober? And I said, well, yeah. And she said, well, you're doing something right. And, but in my mind, I'm not. You know, we're not, we're not getting together enough. We're not talking enough. We're not, you know, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. And, and, and, pamphlet, talks about could, could your sponsor, you know, could a sponsor be too firm? Can a sponsor be too casual? And, and I, you know, I think about my experience with my sponsors. And we were always doing the steps. In some way, shape, or form, we were always doing the steps. And, and that's not happening right now. And that's why I feel, I think, like a failure, you know, as a sponsor with this particular gal is because we're not constantly working on the steps. Um, and I don't mean that we get through all the 12 steps and then we start all over, you know, at number one. That's not what I mean. Um, I just, you know, we need to kind of get going on some things. Um, so, you know, when I talked to Cecilia about that, she shared, you know, an experience that she had with, with me. And, um, and I thought, wow, okay, well, it's not, it's okay, it's cool, it's not just me. And, uh, other people have, you know, similar concerns and similar questions. And I go, and I can go back to what Faith asked me and that is, is she still sober? Are you still sober? Yep. Okay. Well, things must be good. Um, and with that, are there any questions? Um, do you have, or what's your experience with working with the sponsor and the amount of time to get through the steps? Because, in terms of what you're saying about your, about the, sometimes it seems the scheduling, I feel like, I want to, I'm feeling like I'm losing momentum. Yeah. So, I don't know if there's an advisable, I mean, I'm being a little, I'm not doing my short, but I guess. Well, I've, I feel like there should always be some movement. Okay? And so, um, and different people take different lengths of time, I think, to complete the steps. Um, so, you know, I think a lot of it depends on your sponsee and, and how that's going. I, both of us are very busy and so that's part of it. But, I feel like I've asked her, um, half a dozen times, have you finished your fourth step yet? How's it going on the fourth step? And, I finally decided that I was going to back off. And that I wasn't going to say anything about it anymore. I'm here. I'm available. And when you're ready, let me know. And that's how I left it. And I didn't say anything for two months, maybe. And just recently, how's it going on the fourth step? And, and I kind of saw this look that was kind of, you know, a very quick kind of, ugh, you know. When you're ready, I'm here. So, I think it depends. There was, yes? Um, I'm, I think I'm rather new in the program, um, two years. Um, but I asked my sponsor, a young woman asked me to be her sponsor. And I asked my sponsor, do you think I'm ready to do this? She said, yeah. Yes. Go ahead. Oh my gosh. Willful, she's got a quick temper. She's, um, been on it twice now. She's back, she seems really yet now. And she's fast, fast, fast, fast. Especially my sponsor keeps saying, be joyful, be happy. You know, she's motivated. And I think she's got the notion, they say work through step by work, step by step, I mean, well, you know, I don't think she's got the same attitude. Um, would you just let her, let her rip? She's finished four, four, five, and now she's on six, seven. So, let me, let me make sure I understood your question. Are you asking whether or not I would let my sponsor just, um, yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't think so. Okay. I think as long as my sponsor says, let her rip, uh, she's so motivated, you know, uh-huh, about fear that her motivation is that she thinks this is granted and, and, and it's your cure. We know that this is not going to be the only time she works the steps. Yeah. Okay. So, at least I hope not. Well, I need to start saying that. I'm sorry? I need to start saying that. Right. Yes. That's a good idea. But I've had different experiences with different sponsors. I had a, a gal that I sponsored in Fort Myers that was, was very eager. And, um, and we, I would go over to her house once a week. I'd go over to her house and we would work the steps. And, um, and then I've had sponsors like the one I've described that, you know, I feel is kind of dragging her feet. But, um, you know, it, it is what it is and, and she's still sober. So. So it's okay to lie down? I think so. Yes. Um, I feel like I should qualify my question. My sponsor's here and we've talked about this. Uh-oh. And, and I believe that drug is the darkest of drugs. But I'm curious to know if you've had experience sponsoring women whose primary drug of choice wasn't the same as yours and what, um, your take on that has been in terms of your, from your perspective and your ability to be effective as a sponsor. I did sponsor a woman when I was still in San Diego. I sponsored a woman whose drug of choice, drug of choice was not alcohol. And, um, she came to AA meetings. That was her door into recovery. Um, but I had a difficult time relating to some of the things that, you know, that she would share with, um, and, but I did what I could. And, and, uh, the, the thing that I always do when I start, when I first sponsor somebody is I need to make sure that she understands that it's okay if it doesn't work out in regards to the relationship. If it, if there, if it's not a match, then you're not stuck with me. I mean, I don't want it to, I don't want to I don't want it to, to be that. I don't want it to be like, you know, breaking up. You know, we're going to break up, but, you know, I don't want to call you, you know, Facebook, Facebook breakup, you know. Um, and so what I usually do is I say, you know, I'd like to revisit this in a few months. And we kind of sit down and we talk about whether or not it's a match. And, and if she feels like maybe there's somebody else that she met that's more available or whatever it is, then that's cool. And that's what happened with this gal in San Diego. Um, and she ultimately started to go to NA meetings and she found somebody who was, you know, a little bit more suited to her in regards to that. So, when I mentioned that Faith used to do, you know, uh, meetings at her house all of the time, she had a meeting one time where all of the participants were asking addicts of different kinds. So, we all were not members of Alcoholics Anonymous. There were, um, you know, a couple of, of gals that came to the meeting that were members of OA. Um, and it was very interesting. It was very interesting to have a regular meeting where we just talked about addiction. You know, and not necessarily alcoholism. But that's, you know, a different, that's something different. Yeah. Yes. How did you manage the, um, the urge that some sponsors have to fix every, every little problem? How do you, how do you find that distance between, okay, it's my job to work the steps and help you recover from alcohol, not, you know, teach you how to fix, fix your tire, you know, your relationships, so on and so forth? Mm-hmm. Well, um, I didn't always have the ability to put that distance there because I don't know if anybody in here can relate to the feeling of wanting to control the situation. Um, but, uh, I, you know, I think the, the first time that I sponsored someone, um, I felt that it was my responsibility to do it all, you know, and to be available for everything. Um, and it wasn't until, you know, I, I did it a couple of times and I got more time and I talked to my sponsor about it that I realized that, you know, what my role really was. Um, and again, you, I and my sponsee both read this and we read it together, okay, because, you know, it talks, I need to be reminded about that, you know, um, if my sponsor calls me in the middle of the night panicking about, you know, um, not being able to pay the electric bill and, you know, I, okay, I'm sorry, but it's not my responsibility to run over there in the middle of the night with a check. Okay? And sometimes that's hard because we care about these people. Yes? When, I mentioned earlier about men sponsoring men when sponsoring women. When it comes to some problems, what's your take on that? Is it gay men? Lesbians? And vice versa? Good luck? It says in here, would you like me to, I'm sorry, was that all of your question? Go ahead. I interrupted. The first time that I heard about, um, a woman, the first time I heard a woman refer to her sponsor as he, I was shocked. Oh my God, that's just not done. Um, until I realized that she was gay. And then it started to make more sense. Um, and it does talk in here about, um, usually women sponsor women and men sponsor men, but there are times when, um, it says the AA experience does suggest that it is best for men to sponsor men, women to sponsor women. This custom usually helps our members stay focused on the AA experience. So, um, just like Cecilia said about, you know, the, um, affairs. Some gay men and lesbian feels an opposite sex sponsor is more appropriate for similar reasons. So, No, I didn't mean to say that. That's pretty much all it says. It doesn't really go into, you know, into, you know, a whole lot more details for that. But, you know, I was very much a stickler for the rules because of, I guess, where and how I was brought up in the program. And, um, as I mentioned earlier also that I didn't know what it would be that would cause me maybe to drink again. So I needed, and also I wanted to be the, you know, the perfect, you know, AA because I never really did anything very well. Um, and so, by God, I was going to do this as, you know, as well as I could. And so, um, when I, you know, when I would hear or know that somebody had a, a sponsor that was not the same gender, you know, it was, well, that's just not done. You know, you can't do that. You're going to, you know, get drunk or something like that. And, um, but I don't feel that way anymore. Well, you said you're from California. I've been out there too. And, um, also, I work in Naples, Florida. And, we all know Clancy. Every town I've ever been to, lived in, he sponsors women all over the country. You know, and it seems to work out well for them. And I just have always thought that, because I, like you, you know, I've always heard the same thing. And, I've always adhered to it, but everybody doesn't and it does seem to work for some people. And California is California. Yeah, right. And, another thing that, um, I was thinking about earlier, you know, speaking of California is that, um, at AA meetings, uh, there, newcomers were required to introduce themselves. One of the things that most groups did at the very beginning was ask if there was anybody there within their first 30 days and to please introduce yourself. And so, um, I and, you know, every other newcomer within their first 30 days had to raise their hand and say, hi, my name's Mary, I'm an alcoholic and, you know, I'm within my first 30 days. And, that, I haven't been to a meeting yet in Florida where that happens. This one does? I've never been to this meeting. Really? You know, that is so cool because that gives us an opportunity to know who the newcomers are. So that we can go up and, you know, we don't have to go up and we don't have to look for the, you know, because not everybody is doing their, yes? I'm Brian, I'm an alcoholic. Hi, Brian. We ask in this group here, we ask, is there anybody to their first day of a meeting, anybody within their first 30 days, anybody coming back and visitors, so the people who have been here can go up to those people and welcome them. Awesome. Okay. Yes. I've heard, two different takes on this. Is it appropriate for somebody to finish their 12 steps and then sponsor or wait a year to get sponsored? What's your take on that? I think that in order to sponsor, personally for me, I would not feel comfortable sponsoring someone if I didn't complete all 12 steps. And, you know, whether it's a year, so are you asking if I finish my steps within six months, within six months, within six months, within six months, could I sponsor somebody then? I wouldn't feel like I was prepared at that point. So, that's just me. I have not had a sponsee ask me if they should sponsor someone when my sponsee didn't have at least a year. So. You wouldn't be here if people had to wait a year. If he wasn't over a year when he went to school. That's right. That's right. That's right. I mean, there should be no time for someone when you can sponsor someone. As long as you have one in a year. That's true. I've been around a little while. That's true. Yeah. There's a, yes. Right here in this report, in this booklet right here, it says, happiness, health, security, sanity, and life of human beings are things we hold in balance when we sponsor the alcoholic. That's a lot of responsibility for someone. Somebody that's in their first year to take a hold of and grab. They're barely doing it themselves. yeah. That's a good point. I have a question and that is, what would be a good reason for a sponsor to fire a sponsee who's still sober? Yeah. I keep telling you. And I have, I hate to use the word fire. Right. But, I mean, it is something that, you know, that's the term that I use. It's used. I have, I have talked to my sponsees before. I have talked to a sponsee before. And suggested that she find someone who is better suited for her needs. And, you know, like with a lot of things, it's not about me pointing out what her shortcomings are. I just need to be able to convey to the to her that whatever is going on at that point in time that I'm not best suited to help her. And, because, if my sponsor, if my sponsee is not going to take direction about the program of Alcoholics Anonymous, and if my sponsee is not going to take suggestions that I make about the steps and all, what difference will it make if I say that at that point in time? You know, if I say the same thing when I'm ending the relationship that I have been saying. Will she hear it then when she didn't hear it the 20 times earlier that I said it? So, it's not, you know, it's not about me, you know, saying you, you, you, you, you are doing or not doing these things and so I'm leaving. But, for a good reason and why I have ended the relationship, is that my sponsee continually took actions that I felt were counterproductive to her sobriety and that, you know, that I couldn't help her if she was unwilling to take suggestions and that perhaps somebody else could, could step in. Thank you. My question is, like, if you have a, okay, I've got a sponsor but I'm not always able to get a hold of her and therefore I talk to another female co-sponsor or whatever, I mean, do you still go through the same steps with the co-sponsor or you just, I don't know, or how would you go about doing that? I mean, I think that you have to establish the relationship with the person that you're most comfortable doing the steps with and whether that is your sponsor or a co-sponsor, maybe it's just the terms are not being used correctly. If somebody's willing to take you through the steps, like I did recently, you know, about a year ago I had a, a gal who had been having trouble getting together with her sponsor. She asked if, if I would be available to do the fourth, fifth, and sixth, you know, do the steps with her. And I told her I would be because she was really, she was ready, she was eager, she wanted to do the steps and she was unable to make contact with her sponsor. And so I stepped in and I did the steps with her and, and served as her sponsor and still do. So, I hope I answered your question. Okay, just, I gotta, one more. Go ahead. I'm sorry, I got another question. Is that all right? Yep, one more. Um, I, I'm new, um, to the spiritual aspects of a spiritual experience in AA. And, um, I feel a lack of confidence and working with this sponsor who has a long, had long years of spiritual experience and everything that's, that's, that's been going on and, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, to, to, uh, send her on to someone else. If you don't mind, I'm going to put your question on the table for a little while because Cecilia is going to talk about spirituality with sponsorship. And so she can probably, yeah, that's okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Another great place to find out about sponsorship, go to the digital grapevine, type in sponsorship. This is the 1958 collection of the grapevines. But go through and you'll find a lot of articles on sponsorship in the grapevine and that's a good source to get experience, strength, and hope from a lot of different people because who writes the articles for the grapevine? We do. Where do we find the great vine? Digital grapevine, aagrapeline.org. I'm an alcoholic. My name is Cecilia. My sobriety date is November 28, 1990. Coming up, I've got my 21st anniversary in two weeks and I have my 21-year tiara all ready. So, I am ready to go. As we know, Ebby was Bill's friend and sponsor. Bill was Bob's sponsor. So, it takes one alcoholic to work with another alcoholic and that's how the chain of sponsorship starts. I am very fortunate. From the time I got sober to seven months, I did everything wrong. I didn't want to be here. I was not one of you. I went to one meeting a week. I swore like a sailor, chain spoke palm oils, rode a Harley, and was not a vision for you. And at seven months without a drink, the man I got sober for handed me a bottle of Dewars and said, go back to drinking. I like you a lot better drunk than I do sober. And I agreed with him because I liked me a lot better drunk than dry. And that's basically what I was. I had no program. I had no support group. I had nothing. I had no God. I just had me and I was not anything I wanted to be with. So why would I want to be any place where people who might want to be with me as well. And I looked at that bottle of Dewars and I romanced it. I stroked it. I thought about it. I could tell you what it tasted like. And I was sitting in a bar. It would have been very easy to pour a shot glass of it. And then I remembered that that one meeting a week because I thought you guys were a little lame for a while because you couldn't remember anything because you kept repeating the same thing over and over and over again. Every meeting you'd read how it works. Every meeting you read the steps, the promises. I used expletives when they said, are these extravagant promises? And I would say, blankety, blankety, blank. Because they were. They were. I couldn't even understand them. But I knew that I had been restored to some sort of sanity at seven months without a drink because I knew where I had slept, who I'd slept with, where I'd been, if I'd gone to work, where my money went. I knew those things. I could remember. And I couldn't do that when I was drinking. But I also knew that I didn't want to stay this way because it was just hell on earth. I went home. I didn't pick up that drink. And I picked up my 12 and 12. My $3,200 big book and 12 and 12. Because I went to treatment for three months and graduated. I did the third step and I graduated. Didn't mean anything to me. They just told me that's what I had to do to get out of there. And so I opened up the 12 and 12 and there was a lady's name and number in it. Didn't know her. That book had not left the box they gave it to me in. So I don't even know how the name got in there. Because I picked it up the first day and then it promptly went where everything else that had to do with AA went. I didn't throw it away. I just stuck it in the corner. And so I called that number and her name was Grace. And I asked her to be my temporary sponsor because you guys had used that word. And she said, um, maybe. She goes, I need you to do two things. I need to know if you will go to any length to stay sober. And I want you to pray about it. And that was a whole another subject there. And she said, and if you are willing to go to any length, to stay sober. And you have prayed about it. You meet me at the 730 step meeting at the Melbourne Beach Group. So I did to the best of my ability those two things. And I met her at that meeting. And she's been my sponsor since I've been seven months sober. The only time she has not heard one of my fifth steps, because I've done the steps almost, I probably have done them at least 10 times in the 20 years I've been sober. And because different things change and life changes and I change. And there are some things that I couldn't remember when I was three years sober. There were some things I blocked out until I was almost seven years sober. I didn't start getting happy, joyous and free until I was about eight years sober. But then I divorced 275 pounds and that helped. So there were some things I had to go through in this process. But what she did for me is that she told me if I went to a step meeting every day, every week for a year, whole book, including the traditions, I will have read the 12 and 12. And if I would do the same thing with the big book, including the stories, I will have read the entire big book. And that I needed to do that. And then when I got done with that, start over again. So for me, it's been a continuous process. 1994, I went to my first area assembly in Daytona. And I sat next to this little redhead from Rhode Island who was just, oh, you don't say no, you don't say maybe, you say yes. And I asked her to be my service sponsor because that's where I heard it. I heard it first was at an area assembly. And they said, you know, you find someone who's doing the service work you want to do and you ask them to sponsor them and that certain you in that service because they've had that job. Well, I didn't know much about being a GSR and she'd been a GSR. I didn't know anything about being a DCM and she'd been a DCM. So what I did is I asked Rita to be my service sponsor and she said yes. And so she has taken me through the service manual. She has taken me through our history and she took me through the traditions and she had me put them in the eye. Go home and write these babies in the eye and see what that does to your sobriety. That's what changed in my service sponsorship because when I had to start living these, as Mary was saying, when you live these and you live these, there are no excuses for behavior. Those two things will pretty much do it. Bill Wilson talked about his sponsorship telling him how he recovered. But up until Bill was five years sober, he did not have a happy and joyous free life. And we know that because in Tassadon it talks about for Bill these were tantalizing days. His hopes to be raised only to be dashed. They still had no home of their own, meaning he and Lois. He had no job. The big book wasn't selling. AA wasn't getting the wide publicity it desperately needed. The Rockefellers hadn't come through. Hank was not as drinking. Bill was frustrated, impatient, restless, dissatisfied, and depressed. What does that sound like? H-A-L-T. Some even described him as being a dry drunk. In other words, he had all the symptoms of being drunk except the alcohol. What happened next was unexpected and unforeseen. If Bill had been asked what would have made him feel better, he would have hardly thought the name of the gift to come to him apparently at random. On a cold and rainy night in 1940, deep in the winter of Bill's discontent, I was on, I was in our little club in New York, which is 182 Clinton Street, the first one to ever open its doors. I was lying there alone except for old Tom M., who you know in the eighth tradition is the guy who was hired to clean up the room. He was our first service worker who made the coffee downstairs. Lois was away someplace. I was suffering from an imaginary ulcer attack. I used to have a lot of those. I felt very sorry for myself. It was a rather bitter night sleeting outside, but I was still an old Tom, a very brisk Irishman, came up and said, Bill, I hate to bother you, but there's some bum from St. Louis here. Well, it was 10 o'clock at night, and I said, oh no, not another one. We'll bring him up. So I heard a painful progress up the stairs, and I said to myself, this one's really in bad shape. He finally stood at the door of my little bedroom, a terribly crippled figure, coat drawn up around him, leaning on a cane. And he sat down and turned back his collar, and then I saw he was a clergyman. He said, I'm fine, Father Dowling from St. Louis. I belong to the Jesuits out there, and we've been looking at this book, Alcoholics Anonymous. He was not a member of the fellowship, meaning he was not one of us. Thus began a conversation that lasted for 20 years. Father Dowling, crippled Jesuit priest from St. Louis and editor of The Queen's Work, a Catholic publication, said he was fascinated by the parallels he had discovered between the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and the exercises of St. Ignatius. St. Ignatius founded the Jesuits. He put together this book on the spiritual essays, and where those tabs are are the steps of AA. You can find them in here. And Father Dowling didn't necessarily come to see Bill because he was happy with him. He thought that he had plagiarized the steps from the spiritual essays of St. Ignatius, and he was actually coming to give him a piece of his mind. This is the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius. And you can still find it. And it's not an easy read because to get to all those tabs I had to sit down and read each one. And they offer prayers in them as well. So if you're not familiar with Catholic faith, it'll give you a sharp upbringing on it. When Bill confessed he knew nothing of these exercises, Father Dowling was delighted and Bill warmed up to him. We talked about a lot of things and my spirits kept on rising. And personally, I began to realize that this man radiated a grace that filled the room with a sense of peace. And I thought, this is a great place to be. This is a great place to be. This is a great place to be. This is a great place to be. Bill had used the term sense of presence to describe the atmosphere at Winchester Cathedral. That evening, Father Dowling shared with Bill an understanding of the spiritual life that was then and ever after seen to speak to Bill's condition. Bill, author of The Fifth Step, would later characterize that evening as the night he took his fifth step and also of his second conversion experience. He had burdened himself of his commissions and omissions, all of which had lain heavily on his mind and of which he found until then no way to speak. His extraordinary communication with his friends and communication, his openness to sharing, was to be vital for Bill. Father Dowling's spiritual sponsorship would endure, grow, and be nourished during the correspondence and a deep friendship that would last for the next two decades. The subjects of this interchange, although interspersed with business matters of the fellowship, Father Ed was one of its staunchest supporters and was responsible for founding AA in St. Louis, were almost always the questions Bill continued through his life, about faith and no faith, about the church and its role in human affairs. So basically, he did his fifth step at five years, you were asking earlier how much time did you take to do the steps? Well, one of our co-founders took five years to do his fifth. And at that point, the fifth step was written as it was in the big book. But what I liked about what he talked about was that sense of presence. And what I would ask you to, if you have a length of time where you've done your third step, because the third step I did in treatment was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I'm gone. Around three years sober, I had a third step and I had the opportunity to go through an AWOL, which is Alcoholics Anonymous Way of Life. It, again, is non-conference approved and it is basically a week on a step. And we went through it with, we had 12 of us that started out, we ended up with three. Because it took us eight months to go through the steps. And that's where I learned that you go through line by line by line. You don't read a whole chapter at a meeting. You go line by line by line. And I found a woman that had been significant to me in my early sobriety. And I asked her to do my third step with me. So I want you all to go back to the person you did your third step with. When, even though you practiced it for weeks so you would know it, when you closed your eyes, the words just came out of your mouth. Because you knew it. And we got on our knees and we did the third step prayer. And the tears that came down my face were tears of joy, tears of surrender, of knowing that my higher power had me in his hands or her hands or its hands. It didn't matter. And that those hands were not going to do what most of them had done my entire life which was this. Those hands were locked and they were never going to pull apart. And I was home. And I was safe. I've called her my spiritual sponsor. She's since passed away. We called her a couple of times. I call her my spiritual sponsor. I call her my Patti. But she is the woman that is my spiritual sponsor because I could go to her with any questions, any anger, any resentment towards my higher power. And she would just unfold it like a paper shredder. It would just come apart like confetti and there would be nothing left but me going, why was I so pissed? Or what was blocking me? And she had that way. She had that presence. She had that voice. Where you would just sit there and you would just, you know, you would know. So, you know, when you think about who your spiritual sponsor was, think about who that person is you took your third step with. Not necessarily a fifth, but your third step because that's where you first got your contact. And that's the person that your higher power used as a conduit to that spiritual sponsorship. I've had to find other women to kind of take her place and it's funny because, you know, we're all interchangeable as far as I'm concerned. You know, if, because I'm like Mary, if I have a sponsee that can't get to me, she knows three other people she can call today and they can talk to her right now because life gets a little hectic for me sometimes. I'm the same way. If I can't get a hold of Grace right now, I call Rita. You know. I also have found that I needed some sponsorship that was of a higher level as far as service was concerned because my service sponsor has never been area chair, area secretary, area director, area secretary, or area delegate. And so I had to find someone who had done some of those jobs before. So I have a male sponsor in my life that has had experience with certain parts of the service structure that I needed to have experience with. And so I did avail myself of that. He's a young people. Got sober when he was 18. And my grand sponsor got sober when he was 15. So, you know, I have, and he was the youngest delegate ever elected from Illinois. So I have people in my life that are, um, available to me on all levels of experience. And that's why, yes, I need one person that knows me, knows the closet, knows the garbage can, knows where I threw the trash bags away because that's the person that I got brutally honest with. You know. And even when I have to call someone else and dump, I still call Chris and say, I dumped about this a couple weeks ago. I hadn't been able to talk to you and this is what we talked about. And she does the same thing that Mary's sponsor does. What's the stuff that you're working? What's the stuff that you're living? Where are you? You know, so even though she may not necessarily be around all the time, the spiritual sponsor that I have today is that same person that had the qualities that Patty had, just in a different way. She's much more organized in religion and I'm much more disorganized in religion. You know, I'm not, I'm an ex-Catholic. I was named after the patron saint of music. My father plays dominoes better than your father. You know, I was brought up with all the traditions and I was brought up with all the ritual and I appreciate the fact that she has that but I don't necessarily have to have that. What she has is what I want and what she has is she has that pipeline to a higher power. I just know it. You can see it. She's got that aura about her that you just know that her and God have been having coffee. And every time I look at her and say, I wish I could just email God. So one day she sent me an email going, hello? And I went, you know, as a joke to me that, you know, she goes, you want to talk to God, talk to God. You don't need an email from God to tell you what to do. You know, and the one part of sponsorship we haven't talked about is online sponsorship and we're not going to because that's a topic we don't have any history on and that's a very new type of thing but we probably ought to in the near future start talking about what happens when you sponsor someone you never see. Someone that you never talk to but just someone you type to. You know, because there is sponsorship of that kind going around. What kind of sponsor was Dr. Bob? John S., an Akron member beginning in 1940 remembered, he pointed his finger at me, he had a finger like a yardstick, skin and bones all it was and said, you want to do something about your drinking, do you? He was kind of rough and tough, you know, there was no warm or gentle fuzzies about Dr. Bob. He said, you got any dough? This is for the book. I didn't know what he was doing. I thought maybe he was a book agent or something. Dr. Bob said, you read the book then you come talk to me. Then he'd come in a room after I'd read the book he'd ask me a lot of questions. It was like a second grade teacher coming in and asking me about the lesson and you better have the answers. He then asked me if I was going to take the steps. Right now it was as good as any. I said, this was as many to God and yourself and another person and that's what I did. Dr. Bob believed that you didn't wait around. You honestly admitted you confessed to what your you established your relationship with a higher power. You confessed your sins and admissions. You got on your knees and asked them to be removed. You made your amends and your apologies to those that you had harmed and you started working with others. This was not a four month process. This was a four hour process. Once you came in and read the book you went upstairs to Dr. Bob's house there was a 20 minute third step prayer. In 20 minutes on a hard pine floor if you're not believing in God you're not believing in anything because at that point you're not believing in God. You can't feel your legs. The archivists do it every year and then we we do the third step prayer the way Dr. Bob did. And then you go downstairs and you write down your fourth step you talk about your fifth and then you'd be done. Make your amends. Dr. Bob did a little bit out of order we know that because he made his amends on the way back from his last drink and that's why they couldn't find him. You know. But you know and they were in order for a reason because we did tend to do things a little out of whack. I also brought this is a great article if you go to aa.org and you type in box 459 you'll see the article on Father Dowling and this really goes to the heart of what a spiritual sponsor is and there's copies up here you can come up afterwards and pick some up but it really talks about you know what Bill felt was a spiritual sponsor and what kind of gives a better explanation of it and that's in box 459 which is also online it's free from aa.org AA comes of age there's a whole section in the back on religion looks at Alcoholics Anonymous and Dr. Sam Shoemaker who was also instrumental in the Oxford groups in New York who was instrumental in Ebby's recovery is also in here also Father Dowling is in here as well so there's lots of places you can go to get information not only on step service but spiritual sponsorship and if we have any questions and then we're going to give away things so any questions on spiritual? Yes ma'am. I have recently had a spiritual life yeah and, two years over and my instinct tells me not to work with a sponsor who goes along for a spiritual life who was raised in the church I feel like her maturity might be very unbound in that one area is it? My head my heart and my gut how will I have to be in the same place when I make a decision? My head my heart my head my heart and my gut because if my gut's not upset well if my gut's not happy the rest of me is going to know it if my heart's not happy I'm going to understand that too and if my brain's conflicting with the rest then that pretty much tells me that I'm not in a position to make a decision I don't see where there's a qualification about what somebody knows about religion what somebody doesn't know about religion and just if I have a strong faith that's the most but my ears and my chest I mean I was raised in the church but I can question it from any point of view these people don't believe in it I sponsor an agnostic we don't have a problem but does it go the other way does a recent agnostic sponsor come at a recent price I don't think that there's a qualification on what we believe and how we got there the qualification is do we follow the tenets of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous which means do we carry the message to the alcoholic who's still suffering whether by our example which is how we normally get it or by our service which is how we see it or by our words which is what we do when we write articles or we share our experience strength and hope thanks yes so where do you go to to find out how Dr. Bob did third step and how is it different well there's two different ways to do it I'm trying to remember we did it when I do the steps we do it the way they did it back in the 40s and basically it's a step by step line by line through the big book through the 12 and 12 process and we tie in the parts of the big book that relate to it there is a workshop called Back to the 40s that's put on by Ray Grimley who's also a past archivist in Dr. Bob's house they do it there as well I don't know that it's published anywhere I'm the past archivist in the North Florida area and I've been involved in archives for a long time and that's how I was exposed to it is I went up to Dr. Bob's house for an archivist workshop and we went up to and we went through everything they did for the first four years in AA in Dr. Bob's house same books same ritual same coffee pot you know it just and it was an awesome experience where was it? Dr. Bob's house where is it? but there's not actually an established place to do it but the closest thing I can think of as far as a workshop kind of like what the Back to the Basics is is the Back to the 40s and they do that around mostly from Okay, any other questions? How many people in this room have a sponsor? How many people sponsor people? For the ones that don't sponsor someone yet, you have all the tools now to be a sponsor. And another question was asked earlier, how sober do you have to be to sponsor someone? If the person sitting next to you has got 10 days and you've got 12, you've got two more days that you can give them. I need to be around women like Annette because at 21 years, I'm not seeing the 25 and 27-year-old women in sobriety. I need to see the women with 30 years because she has what I want. She's got that quality of what I want to be when I grow up. And so I need to find that. How do I do that? I go to meetings. I'm of service. I talk to other people. I do workshops. I drive a delegate's bus. We have a lot of fun. Okay, Katie. You got tickets? Yep. Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay!