Why Only a Recovered Alcoholic Can Help a Sick One – Judith R.

I'm ready. Are you ready, Judith? I am ready. Good morning. She's two weeks ready. She's revved up, I'm sure. We missed you last time. Well, first of all, I want to thank Megan for filling in for me. That was very nice of her to do, threw her in. Yeah, she did a great job, but we missed you nonetheless. Well, thank you. you. So yes, good morning Judith and welcome everyone to Conversations Over Coffee. My name is Tim Pollock. I'm an alcoholic from Cleveland, Ohio. My sobriety dates April 21st 1996 and my home group is the Men's Into Action Big Book Study which meets on Thursday nights at 7 30 on the east side of Cleveland in person and on Zoom. And my name is Judith Roberts. I am an alcoholic from bismarck north dakota my sobriety date is january the 19th 2009 my home group is the three legacies that also meets on thursday night and of course here in bismarc and we are on zoom we have not um gone live yet so you're welcome to join us we go through the steps where um this week we're on step 12 and so next week we'll be rolling into 12 weeks of the traditions and then we roll into 12-weeks of the concepts so if anyone is interested in doing that you're all welcome. Next week we start. Awesome. Judith and I are not experts, we are not professionals, not that there are any in AA but we certainly are not. We just love AA. AA. The history, the literature, the fellowship, and we agreed to meet once a week to discuss the book, The Language of the Heart. AA Preamble. Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength, and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. there are no dues or fees for aa members we are self-supporting through our own contributions aa is not allied with any sect denomination politics organization or institution does not wish to engage in any controversy neither endorses nor opposes any causes our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics achieve sobriety which we're going to be talking about today. We're here to discuss the language of the heart which is not just a common bond that allows us to relate to each other, it is a publication that brings together nearly every article written for the AA grapevine by our co-founder Bill W. Looks like this if you don't have it. The grapevine started in 1944 as a local newsletter out of concern there was a lack of understanding between groups in the U.S. and Canada. In these articles, the painstaking process of trial and error that resulted in AA's spiritual principles of recovery, unity, and service are documented. It's the hope of the Grapevine editors that Bill W.'s timeless insights written in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s will serve as as a mirror for AA members today, reminding us of what it used to be like, what happened and why it happened and illuminate the present with the wisdom of AA's experience in our first 30 years. Okay, the format of this particular meeting is that each week the two of us have a conversation and share our experience, thoughts and what we've learned regarding the articles in the language of the heart. these conversations will include spiritual principles the steps traditions concepts history personal examples etc it's not scripted rather conversation we never know what we're really going to talk about then for the last 10 minutes we will open it up for questions and comments please raise your virtual hand or if you don't know how to do that just wave furiously and our Zoom master, Mike, will unmute you. It will be very helpful to you if you have the book, Language of the Heart and read it each week. However, if you don't have it, it will still try and make our conversation relevant no matter where you are in your sobriety. It just may be a little confusing if you haven't read the article beforehand. our hand so are there any newcomers or anyone in their first 60 days of sobriety please raise your hand or wave and we'll have you unmute yourself so you can introduce yourself we'd like to just welcome you if you are new hi i'm christina i'm an alcoholic holic hi um it's the first time on the recommendation of my sponsor um so i'm i'm yeah i'm from the ua and um i've been sober 60 months and 10 days oh wonderful wonderful okay so you're past the 60 days but you're still new so welcome welcome welcome anyone else 60 days or less brand new we just want to welcome you make sure if you get your big book if you need it stuff like that all right doesn't look like there's anyone so if anyone is new and didn't identify themselves and you have any questions about aa or needing a big book or anything like that related to aa please stay afterwards there's a few of us that stay after and we would love to to talk to you and get you what you need. I know we celebrated one anniversary, which we'd like to do officially in the meeting. Was it Amy maybe? It's Arizona, I remember that. You out there? Amy, why don't you unmute? Okay, yeah. I unmuted. Yes. There you go. So give us your variety date again. 1-1-99. Beautiful. I got sober, 22 years sober on the first. Fantastic. Thanks for spending time with us. Is there anybody else with a name? I hope this singing didn't scare anyone off at the beginning of the meeting. No. It was nice, actually. Well, happy birthday. Happy AA birthday. Anyone else? Are you seeing anyone? I am not. And Happy New Year. The last time we met, it wasn't this year yet. We didn't even say that. Happy New York. Happy New year, everybody. That's right. Can you believe it? 2021. Crazy. Like the who said, 21 is going to be a good year. We have a seventh tradition, and it states that we ought to be fully self-supporting by our own contributions. There'll be a link in the chat where you can make a contribution to AA. We ask that you go online and make a contribution after the meeting, even if it's $1. Every bit helps honor that responsibility that we carry. All right. Online meeting statement. We'd like to point out that each and every one of us is now a pioneer in the digital age of AA. We ask that everyone act like you're sitting in a meeting at your local group. Meetings online need to carry the same respect that we show at a meeting, an AA meeting anywhere. If you find it necessary to pay attention to something other than the meeting on your screen or are doing something that may distract others, please turn your video off as to not disrupt the other attendees. However, we love to see your faces and we would invite you to fully participate in the meeting by having your camera on like my sponsor says. Would you go to a meeting with a paper bag over your head? so i had to also address my own zoom meeting etiquette when this whole thing started i was like oh i'll just go do this and listen to a meeting and my sponsor kind of like said absolutely not but anyway we invite you to um have your camera on and fully participate unless of course you cannot or something is distracting to the to the meeting uh always stay muted if you're not speaking, remember that we are setting the etiquette for an AA meeting for newcomers present. There are some people who have never been to a live AA meeting and it's important for us to set that example. I will add to that. I was going to give you a little plug there, Judith, because I often hear you say, you know, that you like to see people's faces and we do. And I'll add to that i've had some sponsees that didn't know that i knew they were in the meeting and they'll leave themselves blacked out because they're afraid you know they don't it's like i'm here but i'm not really here if you're here participate with us and also um i know there's people that kind of do something else and have this in the background and i get that but i think it's a lot better for you for anybody at a meeting to fully participate that said it is the middle of the day in the states and some people can't we'd rather you not distract the meeting if you are doing something else but if you're half tuned in we know what half measures get us come join us all the way for an hour right and that's enough on that judith and i have said our piece let's get us out of the way if you would help us uh let's let's tune into something collective here Here, get quiet for a second. God, help us to set aside everything we think we know about you and everything we know that we have. Everything we think about ourselves and others and everything that we think we know in recovery so that we can have a new experience in you. A new experience within ourselves and with each other and a much needed new experience in life and recovery. Amen. All right. So we're discussing Tradition 5 this week? Yeah, 82, page 82. If you have your books, if you don't, page 82 article is on Tradition 5. Very short article. Like one page. page yeah very short tradition you know that we will take all of the next 40 minutes to discuss it oh man there is it seems short and unfortunately people seem to just you know scratch the surface but there is so much and we may we may get uh into some controversy even today day i didn't bring down the can of worms from my desk upstairs so easy uh i actually have some questions for you too but let's start at the top with reading just the tradition itself the short version of the tradition each group has but one primary purpose to carry as much its message to the alcoholic who still suffers versus the long form. Each Alcoholics Anonymous group ought to be a spiritual entity having but one primary purpose, that of carrying its message to the alcoholic Who Still Suffers. And it's interesting to me that the long-form just adds That's that little twist that an AA group, first of all, ought to be an AA group and that it is a spiritual entity having one primary purpose. When I attend my home group, am I thinking of it as a spiritual entity? I hope so. But I think it's a great distinction that they make. I wish that in my director's chair, I wish that they would have kept the long tradition for the short it's not like it's that long i don't know why they had to change that but i think it is probably the most well you know i don'T know what is more important i know that the short tradition short version gets the point across but to leave out the part that were that the groups ought to be a spiritual entity uh leaves so much out i i my personal preference would have been that the short and long would have been the same but well and it is for that reason that if there was a director's chair judas i would welcome you sitting in it and i would i would follow you the world All right. So do you want to highlight anything in the, in the article before I jump into the tradition? You know, in this one, um, I don't as much, uh, you guys know, I try to stick to the article itself since that's what we're here to discuss and then expound into conversation. But for some reason today, day, as I was reading it, I just got the vibe to kind of let the conversation go. And so the only thing I will bring up is the way the article starts and just kind of see where you take it, Judith. And that is the shoemaker stick to thy last idea. Of course, a last being the model that a shoemaker uses to shape or repair a shoe. If you're a shoemaker, that's what you ought to stick to is making shoes. And that's why I'm here today. That's what they're reminding us is that it's better to do one thing extremely well than several things not as well. And if we come here with one purpose, using our expertise on the subject matter, we're all going to be better off. I kind of have a burning question for you, Judith, but i'm gonna i'll i'll find where it where it fits all right well i i of course have lots to say in the article and i'm going to use the article as a springboard into uh getting more in depth into the tradition in a very i hope practical and meaningful way for everybody buddy. But the article states on page 28, sorry, 82, I was about to switch that around 82. That it is, it is now become plain enough that only a recovered alcoholic can do much for a sick alcoholic. And right away, I can talk about, you know, well meaning people, whether it is licensed addiction counselors, rabbis, priests, ministers, therapists, and all this that learn from a book. If that was successful or doctors, medical profession, whatnot, if that worked, there would never have been Alcoholics Anonymous. AlcoholicsAnonymous would never have happened. If those well-meaning, wonderful, highly educated, spiritual, medical educated, all these people, if they would be able to have helped us, they would have. And AA would never have developed. There would be no need. But what this article is saying is, is that only a recovered alcoholic, and there's so much packed into that, recovered. We cannot transmit something that we ourselves do not have. How do we get that? Well, we get to be recovered from a seemingly hopeless state of mind and body by the direct result of doing the 12 steps as outlined, line, specifically outlined in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous. The interesting thing is, is that we always like to put ourselves in the mix. And the other thing is that we're not going to be able to do much for a sick alcoholic. These other places, we can lock someone up. We can continue to try and help these other entities, but it's not going to be much that we can do. But Alcoholics Anonymous has been the most successful thing for 85 years. This year in June will be our 86th birthday of the founding, and it has been The Most Successful Form, and yet it gets a pretty bad rap. Why is that? I don't know. Speculation could be it's because there's no money in it and we're not professional. irrational and so we get dismissed but who knows i don't know why we we don't get you know well some people give the recognition like the library of congress and time magazine and things like that they do say that this is one of the greatest spiritual movements ever to come out of america but um along with that because we uh only a recovered alcoholic can do much then the next part of the sentence says that places upon us a tremendous responsibility a tremendous responsibility has descended upon us all an obligation obligation listen to this powerful powerful language. It's not if we feel like it, or if we want to, or if we have time, or it fits in, or it's convenient. We have an obligation so great it amounts to a sacred trust. Man, I get goosebumps. That language is so powerful, and what that means is I no longer, I have been taught, I no long say I need a meeting, and i just go to a meeting when i need a meeting if my sobriety is dependent or my recovery is dependent upon me needing a meeting and me being a drive-by member of aa and popping in when i need something then how recovered am i if i transformed at all from being a selfish self-centered alcoholic that just takes and takes and take and it's all there for me do i understand my my obligation, the tremendous responsibility that is descended upon me, the sacred trust. I go to meetings today. Sure, does it help me? Yeah, it does. I get benefits. But I go To meetings for the next new alcoholic, the next Judith that's going to walk in that door. Thank goodness there was someone there when I walked in that doorway. Thank goodness. there was someone there who was very busy in their life, very busy, who agreed to sponsor me and give me the time necessary. You know, we get so busy in our great new sober life. And it's like, thanks for my nice shiny new life. Peace out. I got what I need. And I forget that I have a sacred trust to carry this message. So go ahead. I just want to jump in on that. Well, first, I appreciate you bringing up when I read it, I kind of only read the second point that you made being counselors, legal people, doctors. It isn't that they don't mean well. It That if you really have this thing, it is going to take connecting with someone else who really has this thing. That is a great point. What I read when I read that was a little more along the lines of what you ended with, is that I have to be recovered to be able to help. I have a responsibility to do that. that we tell new I we you know people in my circle tell newer people all the time you are able to be of service you know if you have a week sober in a car you have the ability to help someone who has one day sober in no car and that kind of thing but make no mistake that if all you do is pick people up and take them to meetings you are not recovered we have a responsibility once we get it in this thing to do the deal, to follow the musts that you've talked about, to take these steps and then to pass that on to make sure that other people get it delivered that way. Because we have a lot of people who are meeting makers, staying sober, not drinking, but not really getting this um this spiritual awakening and whose fault is it their fault or is it our fault who have had it not stepping up and maybe making the uncomfortable introduction and saying think there's something you're missing here let me show you what i found that's right and we say the word responsibility but bill even goes further and says obligation sacred trust you know really that's really powerful language so um and he goes on in that paragraph to say recovery is a matter of life and death and when we understand step one what alcoholism is that it is fatal it is progressive whether we're drinking or not it progresses and it is fatal. And most, I've read a statistic that says most alcoholics commit suicide when they are sober without recovery, just being sober and sobriety without recovery is so unbearable for me at 11 and a half months of just being sobre. I refuse to do the steps, refuse to get a sponsor refuse to do I just attended a meeting every single day didn't miss I would have said I was in AA I wasn't I was watching other people in AA but it was so unbearable that 11 and a half months I had a loaded pistol and was going to take my life sobriety is different from recovery and um it's a life and death matter and we will it's become becomes so unbearable that we take our lives, even if we're not drinking, but we don't have any recovery. So step one, if we understand what we are, we understand what alcoholism is, do our actions truly reflect it? If I had a fatal illness that was progressive, for instance, cancer, my actions would show what I believe. If we say we believe something, but it's not tied with actions, then it's just a fantasy. It's just it's Just a theory. Our actions will show what we truly believe. And if I truly believe step one, my actions on a daily basis are going to look entirely different than if I just intellectually understand step one rather than admit to my my innermost being that I'm an alcoholic and when I truly understand what alcoholism is. So that he comes out of the chute, just swinging powerful language really, really hitting home what we're dealing with before he gets into basically the Tradition 5 and what our primary purpose is. So Tradition 5, like you said, is very short. And I like to say that Tradition five is beauty cloaked in simplicity. Okay, it's just it's so beautiful. And yet it's so simple. We're all bound together by this sacred obligation, the sacred trust, this obligation, this this responsibility to carry the message. And it's the message, not my message or whatever message or treatment message. What is the message that is found in the book? Not even in meetings because you will hear a lot of crazy things in meetings. So we need to have, we need to be in this book. Not what we think is a good idea. So with Tradition 5, you know, a lot of people will take out a tradition to use and Tim, you've talked about this a lot as a weapon or isolated. And we can't just take a tradition isolated from the others. They all build on on the one before, just like the steps build, the traditions build on each other. So if we take a look at tradition three and our membership, which our membership include all, but only, right? Include all alcoholics or those who suffer from alcoholism is in the long form, but it also includes only those who suffering from alcohol, alcoholism, which means that these people, members of AA are alcoholics suffer from alcoholism. You have to have the allergy of the body. It's not it. That is part of being alcohol. There's two things, the obsession of the mind, the allergy Of the body, and we start seeing a lot of problems when people come in and want to be members of AA who have never drank or who say they've never experienced the allergy of the body. And we're going to get into a little bit of controversy because we're gonna talk about our first cousins, the addict, which I can identify and I have attended other 12 steps. I found my home in AA because I'm just a raging chronic, hopeless and helpless alcoholic. And I have found my home in AA, but I also had drugs in my past and I have attended NA and also CA, Cocaine Anonymous, because that was what I really had an issue with. But I am an alcoholic and addicts are, we call, or Bill calls them them our cousins, our first cousins. So we are talking about people who have the physical component, the allergy of the body. I've also heard people coming into AA and say, well, I have the isms, you know, alcoholism, I have these isms. But that doesn't qualify me to be a member. I have to have that physical component, that phenomenon of craving that is triggered when I take a drink. All human beings, all human beings have isms. All human beings are subject to emotional issues and defects of character, including those who've never had a drink, my father passed away a year ago yesterday. So yesterday was kind of I thought back over the year, because it it was the one year anniversary, my father had a lot of isms. And I, I secretly think that my father may be one of us. But the thing is, is he had never into the point of his death never had a drop of alcohol. But man alive, did he have the isms, but he's not an alcoholic alcoholic, that I mean, how do we ever know he never had a drink, right? So all human beings are, you know, I've heard it in meetings, well, I have the ism. So you know I'm an alcoholic, not necessarily if you don't have that physical allergy. We must be well armed with the facts of what alcoholism is and that it is a requirement for aa membership and then we can go into all sorts of things like open and closed meetings who can participate and yada yada i read the preamble um today and and uh boy we can get into a lot of things but um i'm gonna i got a few other things Well, that point that you're making is we kind of two weeks ago on Tradition 3 is the point that not that we skipped over it, but we got kind of caught up talking about the no other affiliation portion of Tradition 4. And the beginning of that tradition, the long form says our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. so you make a very good point that's a clear statement all who suffer from alcoholism not all who have problems that look a lot like what alcoholics suffer from that's right don't have if i'm at a meeting even if i can relate to other things judith mentioned drug addiction cocaine addiction even if I relate to those other things if I'm at an AA meeting I need to be be talking about alcoholism. And the unique characteristic of alcoholism is the mental obsession and the physical craving. How their body tell them you need to go or their body tell their brain, you need To go get more. If you don't relate to that. How even if the rest of this looks good, even if a fourth step would help you even if you have some amends to make even if you're looking for some kind of spiritual awakening if you can't relate to that medical mental and physical part that our book starts off with in the doctor's opinion why why would you be here and that's not to kick you out or say that we don't want you here you know it's just i don't go to overeaters anonymous although i'm kind of wondering after the cookie crusade that is not to make light of people who have an eating disorder I'm saying you know if there's what 600 some 12 step programs these steps obviously work for a lot of things but ours starts with what happens when I take a drink of alcohol right and that's what what are meant only what we can only include and then so if you think we're far from five five tradition five we're not we're right on we're ready on track we have one primary purpose carrying the message to the alcoholic not people who have isms not the addict we want we love everyone right we love everybody the message that message starts with that definition definition where i suffered from that i explained someone and they go holy shit that's exactly what's going on that's the start of we need a bleeper no everybody hears it don't well anyway so if we're carrying its message what message the message of alcoholics anonymous to the alcoholic who still suffers you know where what do we do what we're talking about freedom um through the spiritual experience and awakening right through this spiritual program of action that is the sole purpose of an aa group and also the group is a spiritual entity so there's so much layered on that how do we do that through the daily practice of the 12 steps and and then bill goes into um the the article and here's the we're going to transition into the second part of the article where groups have repeatedly tried other activities and have always failed right in long long-term, have always failed. We must, and we're interweaving all the traditions together here, they're not standalone, but we must confine our membership to alcoholics. When you read Shoemaker's Stick to Thy Last, that's what we're talking about. We deal with alcoholism, period, Period. End of story. And our membership, according to Tradition 3, is only for alcoholics. And we stick to our primary purpose. We don't talk. We're not doctors. We'RE not therapists. We'RE NOT lawyers. We'Re not counselors. WeRE not marriage, you know, whatever. WeRE not not financial advisors. We're not anything we stick to one message. And here's, here's a good inventory question is if I was sitting out in the parking lot of your home group and I walked out, I mean, I was hitting out there, you walked out and a newcomer, sorry, I'm getting my illustration wrong. A newcomer would walk out. And I asked that newcomer what did you hear in there? there? Did you hear about how someone's washing machine broke down and they feel like, you know, their day or their boss is driving them nuts or Fluffy the cat ran away? What are you hearing in there? What message we have? It's a new person. We have one hour with that person. We may never see him again or not just a newcomer, the old timer or the person who has years that is at the end of their ropes who may not have personally worked the steps and or something's going and they're like i'll give one more meeting i'll go to one more meet and then i'm going to drink or the long timer that has been attending meetings with the message and it's got gotten so diluted and they feel so small against the group that they go whatever i've been sober for 40 years i'm staying home and watching gun smoke right so if we would ask the person what did you hear in there what message is being carried in your home group and if you belong to a home if you don't get one otherwise you're homeless in aa but you're responsible for the message that um is being buried in your own group now i have a sponsee i got a call back today day. And they have some sponsors, and they're attending this meeting. It's a live meeting. And the vast majority of this AA group is addicts. And the whole thing is turning into addicts are sharing, they don't identify as alcoholics. And so they're wanting to know So how do they help their home group get back to Tradition 5? And so we're going to have a conversation later. This is happening all over the place. So how Do We Do This? Our primary purpose is to carry the message of the 12 steps, like this article says. How do we do that? Well, first of all, we establish identification through sharing our history, right? It's got to be our history with alcoholism. I don't care necessarily if you were divorced, fired, in jail, a felon. I came into AA and so much of that, well, okay, fine. I had destroyed two marriages, so I qualified there. I could identify with that, but I've never been arrested. I should have been. never been arrested, never been homeless, never all these things. That doesn't matter. I need to have identification. How did I feel when I was drinking? And how did I be like when I wasn't drinking? What is the mental obsession and the allergy of the body and, and I need to have this identified? Oh, I felt like that. Oh, oh, I remember that. Not the external details, but with alcohol, what's my relationship with alcohol? And then how we, the next thing, how we do this is we're sharing the AA solution that we found as a result of working the steps. What is the solution? And number, the third thing that I think we should be doing in our groups is guiding others in this practical program of action to, you know, if they're applying it, this isn't a program to analyze, but to utilize, to apply. And so how did I do that on a daily basis? I remember screaming in my head ahead after the identification. And so many, when I first got sober, I was in a different place from where I got my sponsor, but the meeting was all just identification, drinking stories, drinking stories. Drinking stories, jail, you know, dah, dah. And I needed that identification right? A little bit, but no one then followed up in the solution. And other Rather than they say, I'm happy today to be here and I'm grateful I'm sober and I'll pass. That's all I got at the end. And it was driving me nuts. Okay, fine. You have the solution. I hear you say you have the resolution because you're sober and you're grateful to be here that apparently there's a solution, but I never heard. And I don't know if it was just me, but I did not hear the how did they stay sober and and be happy, not want to blow their brains out. Because that's where I was at. No one was guiding me. Of course, I refused to get a sponsor. But in the meetings, I wasn't hearing the practical program of action that people were applying to stay sober and be happy and to grow in their recovery, to obtain this elusive thing of recovery and grow in recovery. So those Those are three important points, I think, is with this tradition, it's talking about our primary purpose. Well, how do we carry our primary? How do we fulfill our primary focus in our groups? Well, those are three ways. Identification, which means you got to be an alcoholic. If you're not, you shouldn't be participating in Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. You can observe in open meetings, but not participate because the only reason we're there is to carry the message nothing else so if you're not alcoholic you shouldn't be sharing and i believe that the i'm saying that's a pretty bold statement and i may offend people but i believe the traditions absolutely 100 back that up open meetings you're allowed to observe and attend but not participate because we have one primary purpose in our meetings in our group and And that is to carry the message of Alcoholics Anonymous as found in this book. Number two, we share the solution that we found. And number three, we, in the practical application of this program and how we obtained this solution. I need to go get my can. Your what? I need you to go give me a hand. I need my worm can. Did I just open a can of worms? oh what's the time are we here i've got i've got um eight minutes well okay so the second part of this short article kind of talks about whenever i hear this tradition like judith and i are kind of i think appropriately going off on what our primary purpose is a lot of times when i hear this tradition read and what i see the second part of this article going towards is more like well-intentioned aa groups muddying the primary purpose with something else and i don't know why i can't even think of a good example but like i don' t know uh well i can come up with one yeah go ahead what bill says and this is going on that can of worms our first cousin the addicts absolutely or i was going to bring up something something more innocent. Like, we're all dads here. We're going to have a group to talk about parenting and apply our AA principles to it or like that, like something well-intentioned, but it's like, so I've always read this as stick to one thing. What I found interesting in this article that makes me wonder about the history of what was going on in 1948 when this was written is Bill's talking about like the acclaim of lending what we do here to other things which is a whole other can of worms to discuss right because we're so successful AA has been so successful right I love you know in another place not in this article but Bill writes about success being a heady wine yeah he does say it here too well he says he says uh as he calls it here a subtle vintage may we never drink too deeply of success may we ever forget that we live by the grace of god and that that is just so beautiful but um he in that where the other article where he writes about success being a heady wine he says um humility i believe i'm going to get this wrong humility before success unity before oh my gosh someone i i don't know i'm gonna get that quote wrong quoted i know exactly what you're saying though yeah i just no question for you this is question for conversation certainly not criticism it's a a question for my understanding and maybe some other people. So I want to read the long form to get it right. So in Tradition 5, it says each alcoholic's group ought to be a spiritual entity. And we know that there is a difference between a group of AA's needing for something thing and an a group a group being a functioning member of the whole service cycle okay just so we're on the same page so each alcoholics group ought to be a spiritual entity having one primary purpose in the second part of the long form of tradition three it says any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an a a group provided that as as a group they have no other affiliation really marries itself into the primary purpose talked about in tradition five the question is if a group well i don't want to use your group specifically because you talk steps traditions concepts let's say there was a an a meeting that That was a group that had a home group and a GSR and the whole deal. And the format of their meeting was consistently to talk about the traditions. Is that not going against tradition, but is that honoring the primary purpose or furthermore, let's say your home group is on tradition for, you know, a couple months from now and you have a brand new person there. Right. How do you guys go about addressing the primary purpose of what we're, because it's absolutely necessary as we're doing right now to study the traditions, to study the concepts and to know those things. But if an AA group meets to discuss those things, is that honoring the primary purpose. Dang, you put me on the spot here. This is a really fantastic question. I'm going to have to think about this one. Let me just start with the difference between there is a pamphlet out there that clearly identifies this. What we're doing today is a meeting, an AA group, according according to the literature, one of the things, according to the literature is that it operates outside the hour where they meet. It participates in active 12 step work. Okay, we don't. We are here for this hour. None of us interact. We don't do any 12 step workout side of this. We don't go on 12 step calls, we don't communicate, we don't do anything. This is an AA meeting. And how an AA AA meeting is defined in our literature is that it's by AA, for AA, about AA. And so anyone can do an AA meeting. A group is, according to our literature, people who do things beyond. They're going into institutions. They are carrying the message outside of that one hour. They They're doing 12-step work. They're getting literature out there. They're giving people sponsors. They're going to be a part of it. They're not just doing 12 step work outside. So that's the difference between a meeting and a group, according to our literature. But your question is, is my home group wrong? Oh my God. No, no, no. No, I'm not. That is not my question. No, because... Hold on. That is Not My Question. But now you've got me thinking. but when i i can't believe this hasn't happened or that you haven't had this thought when you're on tradition whatever or concept whatever and you have a brand new person there you know i would imagine you stick to your format is it a matter of you guys um like afterwards approaching that person and making sure that they know why you're talking about these things but here's a big book and here's what what is the protocol well here you know this has been been thought about not in a formal way you've really got me now I'm like in I'm having a traumatic moment I may be in the wrong hand up she's got an answer oh my gosh well here's the deal yes my group is very active yes we give them welcome packets they they yes we do not let them out of that meeting without a big book without checking that they have a sponsor yada yada yada that sounds like formally thinking about this to me well no that's just how we operate that's the primary purpose we have to carry so great that's formal judith you just what's right is right and you don't think about it but that is a formal but what i also what i also like about the people who facilitate the traditions and the concepts we don't sit there and just lecture. We incorporate recovery and the steps, and we do explain in the format of the meeting that this is what we're doing right now, but we want to talk to them. But the facilitators for the traditions and the Steps are people who, like me, go off on tangents. They identify. They talk about alcoholism. They talked about the steps. They incorporate that into the traditions but um that is you know I'm starting to think I need to review the format and make sure we make it clear you know that we're here to help and and whatever I I'm I'm traumatized now I asked because I have a night where a group of AAs are meeting to discuss the traditions and concepts and one of the guys is like you know we're going to start a meeting and we're gonna going to have panels on each tradition that rotate this and this and someone else brought up well let's remember our primary purpose is to carry the message and we don't want to confine ourselves just to traditions as a group and it got me thinking about this yes subject you know and here here's something i'm thinking about perhaps it should be a closed meeting number one for only those who are identifying that may be a start um second of all um perhaps um well i think that in a way it is necessary for us to know the traditions and concepts to truly truly adequately carry the message long term. So it is important. And maybe it's just called, you know, boy, I am a big, big, big believer that we need to be three legacy AA members. We need to know all three sides of our triangle for us to be able to long long-term for the next 85 years, be able to stick to our primary purpose. Because if we don't know the traditions, we don'T know the concepts, we won'T see the danger, like Bill says in this article. Oh, how very attractive these other projects and ideas can be. How flattering to to imagine that we may be chosen to demonstrate you know that uh you know arcs he's going about our success and uh it says um may we reflect with ever deepening conviction that we shall never be at our best except when we hew only to the primary spiritual aim of aa that of carrying its message to the alcoholic who still suffers alcoholism that's how the article ends today um and and to not get distracted by the shiny new thing uh by these projects and and attractive projects and ideas we must have our members grounded in all three sides of the the triangle which is why my My home group is the way it is. But Tim, you bring up a great point. I ask because as I'm, you know, the last year and being able to Zoom to different parts of the country and the world has made me see some holes in my local area's involvement in some of the other two legs. really strong in recovery. I'm seeing some holes in unity and service. And so I feel called to do something about that, not on a crusade, but just to lead. And I want to start with my home group rather than start something new. How can I get the guys on board in my meeting? Because we don't know what we don' t know. And rather than starting something new, start with what I have. And And where does that primary purpose fall into having a three legacies group? So, well, we have gone super over. All right. Let's end with the we version of the serenity prayer. God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change the courage to change the things we can and the wisdom to know the difference amen sorry for going over everybody thank you great job