Sponsorship and Rigorous Honesty – Workshop – Part 2 of 2 – Dustin B.

well hello again oh let's see here lunch was very good I as well I'm tired and I'm still thinking about lunch so what to expect what not to expect you know when I first came in, I knew very little about AA. I knew nothing about sponsorship. Um, I had lots of demands on a sponsor. I wanted them to love me. I needed them to give me money if I needed money. I want them to bum me cigarettes and buy me lunch. And I wanted my sponsor to invite me to sit, to live with her when I was out of the sober house. You know, I had all these expectations, you know, that all had to do with me and my poor pitiful life. Um, yeah. And obviously that's changed. Um, you know, I just, I really didn't know anything about sponsorship. I didn't, I didn'T know enough to expect anything, you know, as time goes, you know, I look back on it now and I know what I should have expected, you know, but it, back then I didnT, I DIDN'T expect that. Um, what I know today is what I, what I expected my sponsor is that she, she grows before me. Um, I need somebody who is still growing, uh, still spiritually seeking and she's doing it ahead of me. And she's teaching me as she goes. Um. I think that's important. Like I said, you know, the sponsor that I had Kathleen, she halted. She was no longer growing before me. And it was funny because she gave me a bookmark on my one year sobriety date. And this bookmark had like the 12 things of sponsorship and one of them was that the sponsor grows before you. So I found that ironic. But her life happened and she got a little bit busy and stuff like that happens. But that's one thing that I expect from a sponsor today is that they grow before me. Dustin alluded to it, he did such a good job, so I don't even know what to say. But, you know, the things I don' t expect anymore are money. I don''t expect a sponsor to worry about my feelings. I expect them to tell me the truth because that's what I need to hear. You know, I still suffer from delusion today. I still can't see, you know, some of the crazy things that are going on in my life. And when I explain them to them and, you Know, like Dustin said, in just the right way so I hear what I want to hear, I expect for them to see through that and tell me the truth instead of worry about my feelings and agree with me and share in that resentment. That's one thing I've seen in Alcoholics Anonymous is, you know, I was sitting at a picnic, an AA picnic, and I'm sitting next to a sponsor and her sponsee and they're literally sharing in a resentment together and I was just like this is the craziest thing I've ever seen I hope my sponsor never does this with me you know because it was just the weirdest thing to see that you know it wasn't like the sponsor was saying oh maybe you should write some inventory on that or let's take a look at that or what are your mistakes in this relationship they were sharing in this resentment together and it was an awakening for me at that point because I was like, I hope my sponsor never does that to me and I hope I never do that with anyone I sponsor. You know, so I think the most important thing to expect is obviously that they've been through the work and that they can take you through that work in the beginning but also that they're growing ahead of you. So, you know, I don't think that you should spiritually surpass your sponsor. I think that they should be leading the way, you know, but shoulder to shoulder. But they should know ahead of time, you know, to be able to teach you. Yeah, that's all I have. Thank you. Now we're getting into the second part of pamphlet which is kind of addressed to wanting to be a sponsor, which is a thankless job at times. But how does it help you? Having someone love me enough to tell me the truth and then learning that that was okay to do in Alcoholics Anonymous, that I didn't have to just endorse someone else's alcoholism completely delusional and just off the track it was okay for me to say like you know we may want to take a look at this because it doesn't really seem to match up with that wonderful stuff you shared in the meeting the other day to be able to be truthful with somebody else you know what are what do I get what does it help me you know it's So how does it help me? That was what I wanted to know in the beginning. Well, the accountability that my sponsor told me about when I started sponsoring other men really came to life because if I'm going to ask them to go down to the detox, guess what? Whether I want to go or not, I'm Going to the Detox tomorrow night. I can tell you right now this is a busy weekend. I don't particularly want to Go to Detox Tomorrow, But I'll be there anyway because the guys I sponsor said, show me how you do this. I said, well, we go to detox on the fourth Sunday of the month and the fifth Sunday ofthe month after our home group. I don't want to go. Guess what? Holds me accountable to the program of action. Holds my accountableto do what I said I would do because I'm asking them, because they've asked for help, to do what they say they're going to do. You know, the other deal is my life is really rich today because of sponsorship. Having a sponsor is one thing, but being a sponsor is a completely different deal. You know, it's that old adage, you've got to give it away to keep it. You can't keep it unless you give it way. Man, carrying this message straight out of the pages of the big book to another alcoholic, and I've read with lots of drunks. I've sat down and started getting into this process with lots o' guys. Not all of them have stuck. Some of them went to different sponsors. Some of em got drunk. Some of them went to prison, some of them left states. You know, I don't know. What it's done is it has enriched my own recovery. It has strengthened the ideas found in the basic text within me. You know I've talked to teachers and the people that teach things know it. They just know it because they're teaching it on a regular basis. Being a sponsor involves a principle that when I give it to you I get a lot more back in return. I love what was said about general service, and I love all that stuff. In our area, I see a lot of people who are really willing because they think it's prestigious to be involved in that stuff, but you don't see them at the detox. You don't see them reading with guys. You don'T see them doing that stuff. And, you know, to each their own, and we're all going to have different experiences and we all need different things, and I believe there's a loving God that will guide us in this process. But being a sponsor has done more to entrench the belief in me that this program works. When I had my own experience, I started to wane on it. I got about five, six months in and nobody I was working with was staying sober. just like what Bill talked about. That's about as close to relating as Bill and I as it'll get. But I could relate. No one was staying sober and no one was standing sober and I started to get discouraged and I thought maybe I better go get busy doing other things. I walked into a meeting one night and it was on the 10th tradition in a meeting that didn't even believe in the tradition so I'm not really sure why they had people present on them. And I presented on the10th tradition and I didn't make any friends. I'll tell you that. People stormed out of the meeting. Some of the people in treatment left. It was kind of an ugly bloodbath deal, really. Love and tolerance of others was not yet my code. Your code, not mine. And there was a guy that I met that night, and he was curled up in the fetal position crying. It was like his fourth day in this facility that brought the people over to the meeting, and long story short, he came to find me, and uh he asked me to sponsor him and i thought sure enough this guy is not going to make it this guy's a dead man his roommate in treatment i was also sponsoring him and he told me this guy's not going make it he's doing this this and this and i said yeah well that's probably right you know that's it's not online with rigorous honesty he probably won't stay sober the guy that told me that ended up going to prison for four years because he got drunk and got into a domestic situation. And this guy did what I told him I did. He did what I asked him to do. He actually wrote the inventory. At this point, my life's getting better and I got to do a little travel and I'm out of state and he's calling me up saying you need to get back here, we need to do my fifth step, we needs to do my fifth stuff. And I watched this absolutely destroyed human being turn into one of the most powerful examples of Alcoholics Anonymous I've ever seen. Of course, I'm biased, but he has an integrity and I just don't even know how to describe it. He changed. I seen someone change. It wasn't just I changed here. I witnessed God use me to help another human being, and I realized I had a purpose that I couldn't just pretend to have, that I really had a purpose i really had a way that i could i could be of service to god and the people about me the words on the pages of the book came to life and i knew that we could recover from alcoholism if we would just work the program not because of my experience because like i said you know i'm completely insane at times so i could have just fabricated it all but when i seen someone else do the steps and seeing someone else come to life i knew it was real i knew what was real I knew that this program worked. And I seem to be less inclined to become disillusioned with Alcoholics Anonymous if I'm working with others, if I'M sitting down and sponsoring men in this program. Because it's real easy if you just go to meetings or even from my limited experience in the service structure, if you're just involved with that, to get disillusioned. Because we fight and we're humans and what I thought was a beautiful spiritual fellowship can oftentimes be a bunch of sharks. who aren't exactly well. Those of you that don't believe that, get a divorce. Let me know how it goes. Separate from someone who you've been dating in AA and let me know what's going on. Let me tell you how it works. But when I see the hand of God move in another man's life, to quote the book, which I just... That's another thing that I've gotten from sponsoring a lot of people. I'll talk and things from the book will just come out. I'm not a page quoter. I can't tell you what page they come from, but ideas from the book, I just have them because I've read with a lot of guys. I've red the book a lot. Not sitting around trying to figure it out, but reading with a guy who's trying to not drink. Completely different deal. It has enriched my life. And more than that, we love to talk about gratitude in our meetings, right? Just, you know, open topic. I don't make it too much of those anymore for a reason because I'm too mean at times. And, well, let's talk about gratitude. I'm thankful for this. I'm grateful for this and thankful. I'm so grateful. I'm So grateful. I'm I've experienced gratitude by giving my hand to another person. I've experience gratitude by taking time out of my busy life that God gave me. God gave Me a real full life. and i can't forget that part of that richness in my life is because i've been just adamant about shaking the newcomer's hand and trying to sit down with them and give them away give to them what was given to me you know someone who's had the bona fide spiritual awakening or spiritual experience that the big book talks about you don't have to convince them to sponsor other people that's all you want to do is just give it to somebody else because it's the coolest thing I've ever done. And I have stuck things in my arm and I have drank things that will do weird stuff to your consciousness. Seeing someone else come to life is still the coolest thing I've ever seen. It is the coolest thing that any of us, I think, will ever get to experience. Because I'm not doing the help. I couldn't even help myself. But I'm putting myself in a position to be helpful. I'm putting myself in a position to be used by whatever this power in the universe is called. Man, that's a good deal. So with that... applause Which question are we on? How does it help you? Is that which one we're on? Okay. I don't have a thing on my table anymore, so... Okay, how does being a sponsor help you? Um, you know, when I first got through the steps and, you know, my sponsor said, okay, now you're supposed to start to raise your hand and start to help people and, you know. Start sponsoring. And I was terrified. Um, I had so much fear surrounding it. Like I'd, somebody would ask for my number and I'd give it to them and I pray they wouldn't call. It's like, oh God, please don't let this person call. I'm going to have to help them. I don't know what to say. I don'T know what to do? You know, what if I kill them? What if I say the wrong thing? What if they drink again? It's all my fault. I mean, I was just terrified. And then I realized that it wasn't my responsibility. My responsibility was just to be there. And that if you have a big book between you, it's between them and the words. And it has nothing to do with me. One thing that my sponsor told me recently was, Kelly, you're the only one that's responsible for your sobriety. If you lay it on my shoulders, I will fail. You're the Only One That's Responsible for Your Sobriety, and that really hit home for me. She made it very clear that it was my responsibility to do these things, that she can make suggestions, that I can read the book all I want, but if I don't take the responsibility to take the action, it was pointless. But so how does being a sponsor help me? I think, as we all know, it gets us out of us. When I'm out there working with another woman, I'm not thinking about how I'm going to fix my relationship or how I am going to get the promotion at work or how am I going to balance the checkbook or whatever. You know, I'm there with them and I'm present to them and therefore I'm not thinking about me and how I need to fix me and all the things that are wrong in my life. Another way that being a sponsor helps me is like Dustin said, it ingrains these principles in me. It makes me accountable to do the work. You know if I'm like I said I expect a sponsor to grow in front of me. If I'm growing in front my sponsees That's kind of ridiculous. But so it keeps me accountable to do those things. It keeps me accountabl e to my home group because I say, this is my home gr oop, this is where I'll be every week, you know, I would love to see you there. You know, so that means I better be there if I'm expecting them to be there. You know I never give my sponsees advice, I never make a suggestion that I don't do myself. you know, it's funny because, you know we're not all well here and I was getting advice from this lady at one point I was asking her questions I was asking her for advice and she'd give me some advice and I'd try it and I call her back and I would be like, it didn't work and she would be gosh, yeah, it never worked for me either and I'm just like, then why are you telling me to do this? like it was very frustrating but you know I but she was there to help and she did a wonderful job of that and some of the advice she did give me did work you know and it didn't work for her but it did work for me so you just never know what what's gonna come through you but like Dustin said it's not about what it doesn't rest on us it's from us it through us as sponsors and it wasn't from my sponsor, it was through my sponsor. And I think that's just such a cool deal. You know, and it does keep us busy. Like Dustin said, we live an extremely full life. We're extremely busy. It's not always convenient. It'S not always the thing that I want to do. You Know, I'm at home. I work from home, by the way. So, you know, there's days where I don't have to get out of my pajamas, and I don' t necessarily want to. And my sponsor will call me, and she'll be like, Kelly, you know, can you come by today? I have some free time from 3 to 5. You know, I could really use, you know, some help on this and this and this. And I'm just like, gosh, you know, I've got all this crap to do. There's dirty dishes in the sink. There is laundry to be done. You know, I haven't seen my husband in like a week now, you know. Really? You know. But, and I don't say that to her. I say yeah sure you know three o'clock I'll be there okay sounds good uh you know and and we live a very very busy life um you know it was six months into our relationship before I think we ever actually had a date you know It's just it's very very Busy but it keeps us out of us it keeps me out of me and uh and i think that's the greatest gift that uh that it gives me thanks when is someone ready to be a sponsor the very simply the way i was taught is uh well you know what i'm gonna i'm going to go to it if you go to uh uh right after the uh the infamous promises on page 84 in the big book it said that they will always materialize if we work for them this thought brings us to step 10 which suggests we continue to take personal inventory and continue to set right any new mistakes as we go along we vigorously commence this way of living as we cleaned up the past you know the deal is once i once i uh i got up into the ninth step and i actually started knocking on doors and making phone calls and and doing my best to make a first approach that was when you know my sponsor sat me down and he said uh well it's uh it's time to go help people. I said, oh, buddy, you need to go to a meeting. You've got to have a year to sponsor anybody. I don't have a Year of Sobriety. And he pointed this chunk of the book out and we talked about it at length. And as I'm out making amends, I'm starting to live a life, this way of life, this way living, starting to do 10 as I go through my day. As I go Through My Day, i continue to watch for where i'm selfish i'm dishonest i'm self-seeking i'm frightened i start to apply the principles of of the first nine steps up into my daily life and then you know i'm prayer and meditation i'm seeking a deeper relationship with god i'm seek that conscious contact with god i used to think when it talks about that part that a man properly armed with facts about himself in this solution that the solution was the big book and what i found is that's not the solution the solution is god very plain simply god i don't i don'T CARE WHAT YOU CALL IT I DON'T DOESN'T I DONT EVEN CARE THE SOLUTION IS GOD SO I NEED TO SEEK THAT POWER UNFORTUNATELY I CAN'T JUST SIT AROUND AND UH YOU KNOW BASK IN THE GLORY OF MY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE I'M SELFISH SELFCENTERED BY NATURE AND WE TALKED ABOUT GOING OUT AND helping somebody else so i have to start doing this stuff as i get to that point so as i'm making amends i'm starting to live life in 10 11 and 12 and uh that's a plain and simple thing well how long does that take i can i can tell you honestly of the guys that i've sponsored that have stuck we got through the step process on an average of 60 days from the day we met they were out making amends they were working with prayer meditation they were doing that stuff and i come from a school of thought that that's as it should be i have friends that think that's way too long the steps were never intended to be a tedious long drawn out process we can always go back through the steps the line of sponsorship i'm in we work and rework the 12 steps why because selfishness self-centeredness still the root of my problem i'm still i'm still a victim to the delusion that i'm right so that's the short answer of this stuff is as i get through the first run through the through the amends i need to start being willing to be helpful now people say you can't sponsor for a year that guy i told you about who's a completely transformed human being i mean i seen him the other day kneeling down and hugging his his two little girls that he was absolutely terrified to be around prior to working the steps if that was the rule that guy would be a dead man by his own words not by my opinion by his own words he was going around looking for sponsors down in the twin cities i was still living up an hour north he came and tracked me down because of what he had heard me share on the 10th tradition he tracked me Down asked me to sponsor him i was like six months sober if i would have said i can't sponsor you until i'm a year i don't know if he'd be dead or not he thinks he would. Maybe God would have provided someone else, but God provided me and he asked me and I just said yes. And we sat down and started going through that process. It's got nothing to do with time. I don't need to shoulder the entire responsibilities of that human being. That is not my job. My job is literally to provide an adequate presentation of the 12 steps. I Don't Care If You Like The Meal, I Don'T Care If YOU Want To Eat It, but that is the deal. This is our 12 steps. This is our program. It's the only program of recovery we got and I know it sucks. Let's be honest here paying back all the money is not fun but the promises that come true as a result of making the approaches on my amends are worth it. So buddy you need to go help somebody else. Once we get to this process it's time. Now I've sponsored guys who nobody really started asking them to sponsor them until they were a year year and a half sober they were willing the whole time they they carried the message into the detoxes and the jails and all that stuff but if you're getting through the steps it says in the 12th step having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps we try to carry this message that's the deal once you get up to that point it's time to move. And once I get into the ninth step, it's time to start doing that. And it's varying opinions on that. There's varying opinions on when we start sponsoring. But I'm sure that Paul could get you in touch with the history, but our history is the guys that were barely sober at all were out going to the hospitals and the train stations and dragging drunks off the bar stools, and they were immediately into 12-step work. They were brought through the steps rapidly. And I think we lost that in the fellowship. I think we've lost that. It's like you're going to die if you work a four-step too soon. Never seen that happen. I've seen people go to prison and people drink and people who are going to die any day now because they would not write a four step or because they waited too long so the responsibility i believe as a member of alcoholics anonymous is to know our history you know i don't think when they said if you want what we have they meant joe blow talking about his trailer hitch across the table i think they meant it in the the way that a textbook would outline it if you Want What We Have As In The Writers Of This Book Who Are Describing To You this experience then you'll do what we did rapidly use phrases like next at once immediately now you know so the deal isn't get well and then go help somebody see because i thought i was going to get welland then i would be of service the deal out of my experience is if i go help others i start to get wealth if i sit around in these rooms and try to just get my share down I'm a dead man walking I need to be in action how can I help you so with that well i think dustin uh covered that very well i am going to share one quick thing um i have a sponsor right now who is uh she's through uh this step she's making amends like a mad woman, but she's under the restriction of being in a halfway house. And so she can only talk on the phone like three times a day for 10 minutes at a time, you know? She can only go to minimal meetings and it's very hard for her to, you don't raise their hand for sponsorship. She just cannot take on that responsibility right now. And it was funny because what I got to see happen was it's the same woman who's going through this custody battle and she got very, very sick. She went like two weeks of thinking all about her and she was just fighting and fighting and fighting like I had seen her just change rapidly and then I just saw her fall apart. And I brought her to a meeting the other night and the speaker very clearly was talking about how you know I stopped fighting and I help others and that's how I stopped fighting and it's just the light went on and she's like oh my god that's exactly what I needed to hear you've been telling me that for a week and so I talked to her today and she was like you know, I've been trying to help out a lot lately and I wake up every morning and I see how I can help and I just do the chores around the house and I've bee helping the other girls and just listening and you know. I've stopped fighting. And she's like, and everything's okay. You know, and it was so cool. I was just like, that's so cool. It was so neat. And it, you know, she had an experience with that. And even though she wasn't able to sponsor anybody, she was able to be of service to the women in her house and get through that really, really tough time. But the next question we have here are what are the responsibilities? Is that the one? What are the possibilities of a sponsor. And I think the biggest responsibility we have is to be available. If I'm not available to sponsor you or if I'm saying, oh next week or tomorrow, sorry I can't do it today, tomorrow, next week, blah blah blah, this person's not going to get drunk before I ever get to them. I think that is one of our biggest responsibilities is to be there and to be responsible to that person and to be there when we say we're going to be there I think the other responsibility we have like I stated before is to do what we're asking them to do to continue to stay accountable to ourselves so that we're doing what we'RE asking them to do so that I've done a fourth step and I've done a fifth step and I'm continuing continuing to take personal inventory and i'm praying and meditating on a regular basis and i'm involved in my home group and i am being of service and you know all these things that that are on this spiritual path that we're on um if i'm not doing that they're sure as heck not going to do that you know they're like well you're not doing it why do i have to do it so I think that as well is a huge responsibility of us but you know it's up to them to take the action you know all we can do is show them the way you know I can't I can make anybody do anything and it's it's discouraging at times you know I went to my sponsor not too long ago and I was like why why aren't these women doing what what we do here like nobody's he's sticking, you know. They'll look like they're ready, you know, they're eager, they want to do it all, blah, blah. And then you ask them to do something and they won't do it. And they have every excuse in the book not to do It. And she said, Kelly, are you sober today? And I said, yeah. And she said that's all that matters. And you know that was huge because I, I do get discouraged at times. You know, when I came in, I was ready. I, I didn't care what you told me to do. You could have told me to eat who knows what. I'm not even going to say what just went through my head and I probably would have done it. You know, I,I didn't know what to do with it. I didn' t care. I wanted to get better. I was so sick of being me that I could have cared less what you told me to do as long as I didn''t have to be the way I was anymore. And, uh, you know and I just did it you know it didn't matter what they said I just did it I was like okay no questions asked sure great sounds good let's do this what's next what's new what's what's next and it was just very very recently that I got a girl into my life that is the same way she's always like what's next what next what we got to amends and she's making amends like a mad woman and I can't believe it I'm like you made amends to your PO for real like what did he say yeah I mean it's just the coolest thing to see and she's excited about it and that wouldn't have happened if I wouldn't have stayed responsible to this program and to this action and to our primary purpose I wouldn'T have been able to see that and she may not be here today so I think that's our greatest responsibility is to be here, so thanks if I'm going to ask a guy to not only work these 12 steps and to get informed about the traditions and why that's important and to take a look at service and to do this stuff, if I am going to ask a man to ask him to practice these principles in all of his affairs, I think it's important that I invite them into my life enough for them to see how I'm actually doing with that. In the beginning, it's pretty brass tacks. We're going to go through the big book. I'm not your buddy. I'm nicht your friend. You want to call? We're gonna talk about the book. You know, it is just the way it is because that's the way it was with me. I didn't need a friend. I needed a guide. I didn' t need someone to sit there and tell me what I needed to do. I needed someone to show me how to get better in Alcoholics Anonymous. But you become joined in a way that I don't know of any other way to do it. You become joined in just this relationship that I didn't even know I could have with another man by working that process together, by going through it. And the guys in my life that I sponsor today are invited into my home. The joke from Edward who's here today is my sponsor invited me into his life and showed me how to live because I'm a human being and I make mistakes and I get angry and he's seen that you know my responsibility in the beginning i believe is to be a rock is to Be a foundation is to, be a man with a real answer like the big book says But as we get through the step process my role starts to shift a little bit and it becomes about Responsibility but it also becomes about showing that person, my flaws About showing that, person the mistakes that i still make about being Being free enough in my life to show them the warts because if I don't, I'm going to set an unrealistic expectation about what Alcoholics Anonymous is. I'm gonna set an example that is out of some sort of pride or this false humility or I'm wanna set up a life that is different than what's actually going on and I think I gotta be willing to let that person come in and see me make mistakes and to share those mistakes with them. In the beginning, I ought not do that. I've talked to the guys I sponsor and asked them if it's okay to share these experiences anonymously. And they said yes. A guy I sponsor, like I said, was facing charges and all this stuff and he's year-in-change sober and he is living with his dad at the time and he gets kicked out of there and he goes through early sobriety fun stuff. And he is telling the guys that he is sponsoring this stuff. He is telling them within the first couple of weeks of working together how screwed up his life is he's not being a man with a real answer he's talking about getting kicked out he's facing charges he's doing all this and guess what that guy was like you know what i think i need to get a different sponsor see but he didn't need to Get a Different Sponsor because because this guy had had the spiritual awakening he no longer obsessed about drinking he was a changed person he just had drama in his life that wasn't that newcomer's fault for run into a different guy. I would have too if my sponsor was like, my life's completely screwed. Here, let me help you. I ran too. But see, we weren't here for all that external stuff. We've got one primary purpose. Our primary purpose is to deal with alcoholism and how to get free and clear of that. And if a man's got an experience with the 12 steps and he can transmit that to somebody else by way of experience, he's got all he needs to be a sponsor in Alcoholics anonymous he doesn't need to have his entire life in cute little boxes all in a row he just needs to have a way out and you know that my responsibilities are uh initially an adequate representation of the 12 steps plain and simple if we're not going through the steps it's not sponsorship that's my opinion and it's a pretty good one because that's all we do here that's the solution, that's the program of recovery. You can disagree all you want. But I got friends who didn't help me get sober when I was drinking. I had all sorts of friends. I didn't need a friend. I needed a guy. I needed someone to show me this. That's my responsibility. If I don't know the book, if I don' t know the traditions, if I do' n't know the concepts, it's my responsibility to know that stuff. Because this person is willing to put their life in my hands. It's not my hands, it's God's responsibility to carry that person through. But it's my responsibility to be as informed as I can be to have real experience with this stuff. It's my responsibility. I'm not perfect. I'm Not. And I'm not one to be to feign humility, to pretend with these guys. I just try to be as honest as I can. Some of them buy the whole package, some of them don't. Not my deal. There's guys that actually are paying back the money. Hard to believe. There's boys that are actually willing to show up at service commitments and be of help to new guys in detoxes and stuff on a regular basis. Hard to Believe. There's girls that are interested in knowing what our traditions are and our concepts and willing to be involved in general service. It's hard to believe And there's other guys that are like, I got mine. And then they're just going to have theirs. And you know what? I see them have theirs, and I get to see a reflection, like I said, of my good ideas playing out in other people. I getto see what happens when I take what I want and leave the rest. I gettoseewhathappenswhenitakefromaaanddontgivebacktothepeoplewalkinginthedoor. Works for me. My responsibility is to tell them the truth. They've had enough people try to soften it up for them. I don't want to write inventory. You don't have to. You'll die, probably, if you're a real alcoholic. Unless you want to find some other way, then go find some other way. Before we even sit down to read, I lay out what we're going to do, what sponsorship's going to look like. Yes, we're gonna go through the steps. Yes, you're gonna show up at my home group. Yes, I don' t care where you do your first step, but I want to hear it too. And some say, well, you can't say that. Well, I do it all the time. I say it just fine. It works. They're asking for what I have. If they want what I have, I'm going to tell them what I do. If they don't like it, they're free to go somewhere else. I'm not territorial. I don't own my pigeons or my babies or any of this absurd stuff. They're just guys that God brought in my life. He just brought them in and I'll just do what I can. If they Don't Like It, they are free to go elsewhere. And I'm Not Afraid To Tell Guys, You Know What? You're Not Working The Program. You're not involved in the Fellowship. You'Re Not Doing What You Said You Were Going To Do and we sat down and lined this deal out, when I explained to you from the best of my knowledge what any lengths was going to look like. You're not doing it. So I'm going to ask you to do one of two things. Either start doing it like you said you were going to or go find a different sponsor. It's not firing a sponsee. What it is is being realistic. You're Not Doing Alcoholics Anonymous and if you drink again, which I think you're going to, I want you to know deep in your heart that you didn't do AA. That you were doing something else. You were doing AA light or half strength or half measures or whatever. I want you to know that and I don't want you to know that to be cruel. I want you to know that because when you drink again there will still be an answer for you here. You won't be like me crying because AA doesn't work and you can't stop drinking on your own. That's how I was four and a half years out of the fellowship couldn't come back because AA doesn't work for me it's a bunch of guys sitting around whining about their problems that's not AA so it's my responsibility to tell them what Alcoholics Anonymous is and if they're not doing it to tell him hey you're not doing it so if they drink they can they can come back and do it they still have an answer here he's at hardline yes yes I had to take at least one hard line stance today I couldn't just be mr. diplomatic all day long so the next Next question here, Kelly. Is there one best way to sponsor? Is there one best way to sponsor? Very simply no I don't think so. That is my opinion. I think that the 12 steps in the big book should be involved in every sponsorship. I think that we should all stick to otherwise we're speaking opinion but I mean even for me like when I first started sponsoring women I was talking about this earlier on a lunch break but when I first started sponsored women I thought it all had to be the same you know so I was trying to find that same pattern and you know the same thing to do with every woman and so that I could just kind of breeze through it you know I thought it all had to be the same like the structure and I found that's not true because every situation is different and every person is different you know and I'm led to sponsor in different ways with different women you know some women are master manipulators I was one of them you know and so those women need you know a lot a lot more you know brutality so to speak you know I don't know how else to put it but you know it's what I needed um you know but they they need the truth very quickly very right now and very clear you know and some women don't need that you know they're very aware of their delusions and you know in there very apt to uh you know have an open mind and do the things that we do you know so all women are different or some women have children and they can't go to you know seven meetings a week you know they just can't you know and some women don't have jobs and don't children and don' have husbands and please go to as many meetings as you can you know get involved get in the fellowship do what you can you know let's do this deal you know so I think it's all different you know I don't one particular way to sponsor even in my life and you know I sponsor different than Dustin sponsors and you know what I don't think there's one perfect way to sponsor but I think as long as the big book is there I think that's what's important just kind of touch on what Kelly was saying on that a sponsor guys who who have a couple of kids and a wife and a career and all that stuff, and they can make it to about two meetings a week. They can make it to a service commitment about every other week, and they can work with about two guys. Cool. Not my deal. I have to be open enough for intuitive thoughts. Hopefully by the time I'm being a sponsor, I'm connected enough to God to receive some intuition in this deal i have other guys who go to less meetings and do less than that guy who's got a couple of kids and all that stuff pretty dangerous territory i think god meets us where we're at some of us are so blessed to give much of our time to the work and some of Us have a lot more obligations than others I think that's cool. But the thing I always try to bring up is how grateful are you really? Really, honestly. Where's the action? Because if I'm being so grateful, I should be strapping on tennis shoes and hitting the pavement, not just sitting around talking about how grateful I am for everything you've done for me. I should go out and try to help others. And so the only right way to sponsor is whatever way God's leading you to sponsor with each individual. There's no right way except for the fact that I do it in a big book. It just blows my mind to try to sponsor in any other way. I've been sponsored in previous sobriety, which will tell you how well that worked, with no big book in the mix. It just doesn't... The 12 steps, the directions for the 12 steps are outlined in the book. What possibly could you do other than take someone through the course of action, which will bring them to a spiritual awakening, which can expel the obsession to drink? What could be possibly more important than that? Some of my best friends are guys that I sponsor. Some of me best friends in the whole world, not just AA, are guys I sponsor, but that started out on a foundation found in our basic text. I believe there's lots of great things we do in AA, but the big book ought to be one of them kind of a novel idea in our current circumstances i'm sitting there listening to people in meetings talking about how they don't have to work the steps which is true it's a suggested program of recovery you're free to do it or don't but why are you in aa if you're not going to work for 12 steps it is a 12-step fellowship i don't know anybody ever told you that it is at 12 step fellowship based on having an experience with the 12 steps we go to meetings and share about that experience it's like there used to be a support fellowship for the program of alcoholics anonymous and now we've drifted the other way and it's become uh a support program if you're one of those big book thumpers for a fellowship i don't understand if the 12 Steps aren't involved i i personally out of experience of drinking and drinking with just this weird, ambiguous sponsorship. I think you're an accessory to suicide. Now, that's a pretty hard-line stance. But we've only got one program. We've only Got One set of directions. Even the 12 and 12, you say, I sponsor out of the 12and12. Really? It says it's not a replacement for the big book in the 12an12. I don't understand. But you know what? I don' t have to because I'm only responsible for taking the action that I was brought into. That's it. but I sponsor out of the big book. Can a sponsor work with a sponsee's family, employer, et cetera? I got called in by the CEO of a company because they wanted to meet me because of what had happened with a guy. Pretty weird deal. This guy had such a profound change that she wanted to meeting me, and I'm sitting there going, in her office, going, why did you want to see me? Because I wanted to talk to you about what you did with Tim. And I didn't, I just read out of this book and did what it said. Trust me, it wasn't me. I've also had the wives of alcoholics call me and say, this is what's going on. He's on his way out in the cop car. He's going to prison. What should I do? You know what? I think at a time that that was real necessary, that I work with a family. That's what the literature, the history talks about. Now I think there's people that can handle that better than alcoholics can. That's the family groups. So I'll get them in touch with a woman in the family groups who can help them with their problem. Because I don't know. I'm a maniac drunk. I'm not a candidate for the family group unless you count my childhood and all that stuff. Maybe I would have been at one time, and maybe I will end up back there again someday. But I'm an alcoholic. And if your husband is not willing to do the work, I'm just not going to chase him. I'm really not going. so you may want to go see these people over here I have however gotten to know the spouse of one guy in particular and we've talked about this stuff and hashed it out a little bit and and kind of talked about the program and some of this stuff it's been a blessing in my life you know it really has been but I don't think it's as necessary as it once was I think there's people better qualified to handle it nowadays I think I have a hard enough time trying to carry the message to others and who are alcoholics than to worry about trying to practice it with others besides the alcoholics I think that there's enough work to be done with drunks so that's kind of some of my experiences I didn't hear what you said would you say okay as Dustin was talking I was reminded of an experience that I had with sponsee recently and she when she when we very first met she said all I want to do the only thing I want in whole wide world is to not want to drink. And it was funny because I read her the 10-step promises and she said there's no way that won't happen for me. She didn't believe me. There's no way that will happen for me, I can't even imagine living a life like that. And I sat down with her last week and she had gone through something rather traumatic and she said you know what was weird Kelly she said in all of that I didn't want to drink she said never wants it to come to my mind and I said isn't that cool I said the only thing you ever wanted just came true I said what a great blessing and she just instantly started to cry you know she's like you're right the only thing I ever wanted came true and it was just cool and I was struck by that as Dustin was talking so I wanted to share that but uh can a sponsor work with sponsees family employer etc I honestly have no experience with that I've never had to work with a sponsee his family or employer most of my sponsors have been unemployed and their families won't talk to them anymore so you know I've never had that experience I know that my parents when I first got sober with my mom said they live all the way out in Baltimore and they said we will fly in for your one year if you make it that long and I said oh wow you know one year that's forever away whatever you know and sure enough one year came and they flew in to see me get my one-year medallion and they met my sponsor you know and my mom was so ridiculously grateful for this woman in my life she's like you have the most wonderful sponsor you she thanked Kathleen up and down and all around for for helping me and that you know that was that was important I think I think it was good for you know Kathleen to see where I came from, and it was good for my parents to see the woman who carried the message to me. But the next question we have is too firm, too casual, question mark, question mark. I'm not sure what that means, but I know that, you know, Dustin, whenever he talks about me sponsoring women, he says Kelly's more rigid than I am. And I don't know if that's true, but I don't think that there's anything more important than telling somebody the truth. And whether that be too firm or too rigid or whatever, I don' t think there's anything more I can do than tell somebody the truth like Dustin said, you know, if somebody is not doing the work, I'm not going to help them to believe that they're doing AA and doesn't work when they drink again you know I'm never gonna add to their delusion if they're not doing the work I'm gonna very politely say you know I'm disappointed you know you're not you know doing what's laid out in front of you to get better you say you want to get but you're taking any of the action and everything else is seeming a little bit too important other than your recovery you know so when you want to do, you know, make your recovery a priority, you know, I'm here to help. And, uh, you know, I just had to tell a woman that the other day because, you know, everything else was more important. She had just gotten out of treatment and, you know, her life was more important than her recovery. And I, she hadn't showed up three times, four times in a row to the time that we were supposed to meet. And um, I just finally said, you know, I'm very disappointed. You know, I really wish that you would make your recovery a priority. And you haven't, and I haven't seen that yet. And when you're ready to make your recovery a majority, I'm here to help and I'd love to be of service. And she sent me a lovely text message back that said, yeah, I'll call you next week. And I still have not heard from her yet so you know we'll see how that works out but uh you know too firm too casual i think there are sponsors out there that are too casual I think the very first sponsor I picked was way too casual because I didn't hear anything from her um but I think we have we have a responsibility and that's to give them the message that has been given to us and and to tell them the truth and And if that's too firm, I guess that's too firm. But that's the way I do it. Applause Too firm, too casual. One of the things that has kind of struck me recently is that our literature itself, our program itself, has ingrained in it things that are not comfortable this idea that everything i do to get well is going to be comfortable has just about killed me because i don't want to do something that makes me uncomfortable it must be bad and if it feels good it must be good sitting on my couch doing whatever i want to do feels good however it is not effective as far as affecting a change in my life. It's just not. If I want to be different, then I have to go through some of this process of being different by taking different actions. One of our responsibilities, one of the things that's in the literature that a lot of us in Alcoholics Anonymous don't want to take a look at, and it's in our traditions is that Alcoholics Anonymous is for alcoholics. You know, we don't want to, it's a crazy thought. It's for alcoholcs. The open meetings are for anybody. That's great. But one of the things in sponsorship that I do that some people find to be too firm is that we get down to qualification. I'm not going to qualify the drunk. They're going to qualify themselves. But it says right in our book, if you're qualified that they're a real alcoholic, move on from here. If you're not qualified, offer them friendship and cool. Alcoholics aren't for real alcoholics. I don't know. So we go to page 44, and if when you honestly want to, you find you can't drink or you find you cannot stop, or if once you start, you have a little control over the amount you take, Is this you? I share some of my experiences. I share some of his. Usually is. Usually is if he's asking me. And we can move on down the road. But I don't think it's too firm to say, you know, you've been smoking crack for a long time and you say you're not even a little bit alcoholic. I think you may you know you're welcome here at the open meetings but I think you may want to go find some people you can identify with Because we only do one thing extremely well. And if we continue to louse up our fellowship, it may not be here. I don't care how many GSRs we have. I don'T care how much stuff we do in the service structure, and that's going to save us. If we don't stick to the one thing that we can do, which is help alcoholics, when the alcoholic walks in the room and is not identifying, because so-and-so is talking about smoking crack and so-so's talking about shooting meth and so on so I was talking about this then the one person Alcoholics Anonymous was supposed to be for he can't relate so that's one of the things I've gotten accused of being too firm about I believe in our singleness of purpose I don't know I think it's important because something seems to happen when an alcoholic and an alcoholic sit together and something seems to happen when a crack addict and a crack addict sit together. And I think it's irresponsible of us as sponsors to just say, you know, it's perfectly okay that you've never taken a drink in your life. Just say you're an alcoholic. You've just been smoking crack rockets. I think that we have to at some point, even though it's uncomfortable, stick to what our traditions say works and what doesn't work. And some of that stuff. I don't think as of yet I've been accused of being too casual. I don't think I have What's happened is I speak a lot And I get to do a lot in Alcoholics Anonymous And I gets to be of service And I and I get around the Twin Cities quite a bit I've been blessed a lot on that area And you know it's gotten to the point Where the guys that are willing to sit down To look at having me as a sponsor Are usually in pretty bad shape And usually pretty desperate And will usually you know at least sit down And start going through this stuff I've gotten the people that want to be my friend. I don't get that much anymore, you know? Which ought to tell you something about how I carry myself, you know? I'm not a prime candidate for friendship apparently. When I'm in Alcoholics Anonymous, I'm doing AlcoholicsAnonymous. After the meeting, before the meeting we're going to have a good time and we're gonna laugh and smoke cigarettes and drink coffee. That's what we're doing. We're gonna do. Have a blast doing that. But when we're in the meeting or when you sit down in front me or when you call me about a specific problem we're going to talk about a solution to that problem coming out of the pages of our text or how about this did you take it to god yet if that's too firm i'm too firm see we're loving alcoholics to death in our fellowship on a regular basis we have so watered down our program as far as the presentation of it in my humble opinion to a point where even if it's taken in this sort of weird, ambiguous, just kind of do whatever you want, that it's not real effective. It was meant to be delivered in full strength by way of our history and they were okay with getting in people's faces. Not like you better do this, but if you're going to be here, this is what we do. What's so wrong with that? What's så firm about that? This is how Alcoholics Anonymous has been operating long before I ever got here. this is the program this is a fellowship here's the traditions here's the deal you know I used to play t-ball when I was a little kid I don't ever remember showing up with a football saying no no we're going to play like this I just did what I was told to do when I went to t- ball practice and went and played the game that I was told to play because I said I wanted to participate you know if you want what we have come and join us But prior to when I got here and prior to when most people in this room got here, by reading the history, we started letting people dictate to us what we were going to do in our meetings. And in our home group, the firing line, we don't do that. We just stick to the basic text. And we just stick with the basic text. Stick to our primary purpose. And if you don't like that, that's fantastic. There's a bunch of meetings you can go to. i can't be so afraid of having someone dislike me that people pleasing selfishness that looks like a good thing i just have to be willing to stand on the principles that were laid out for me by my sponsor and just stand there and just be just be a rock based upon our primary purpose and having God right in the middle of the deal. And let the chips fall where they may. The whole saying, I hear it a lot, you know, we'll love you until you can love yourself. I want you to know that the reason why I got Dog All It's Anonymous is because I was loving myself too much. I was a selfish, self-centered, egotistical, driven human being. And the problem wasn't that I didn't love myself. The problem was that I was the only person that I cared about. I wasthe only person than I seen. I haven't had people that loved me until I could love myself. What I've had is people that were willing to hold me accountable until I can start to be accountable myself. Not to some weird idea that they had, but if I said I was going to be at home group, by God, I was gonna be at a home group where I was always gonna hear about it. Not that I said that I was just gonna be there and that I wasn't gonna be able to get my four-step done and then just decided it wasn't something I wanted or that they determined it was time for me to get mine four-stepped on. But they said, you know, you told me you were going to be done with this by now where is it holding me accountable to what i said i would do is that too firm i don't know probably i needed it i was strapped down to a gurney you know i i'm a last gasper i've tried taking my life so many times it's ridiculous the fact that i'm standing here today is unbelievable and i'm one of those young people in aa you hear about who you've probably drank more than you know or you probably spilt more than i've drank Really? You know, alcoholism is alcoholism. If I'm dying, I'm dying and I need a solution. I need someone who loves me enough to tell me the truth, tells me how to get well. Not tells me like in the you better do this, growling in people's faces. That sort of sponsorship is so ugly I couldn't even imagine it. I wouldn't last with a guy like that because I'd tell him to go F himself because that's the type of alcoholic I am. You're going to do this. No, I'll not. You know, I'll go drink just to spite you. But someone who says, you know what? I've been where you've been. I've ben as arrogant as you are. I've bent whatever, and I can show you how not to be. That's what I needed. And it wasn't always comfortable, much like this last session. Okay, how to deal with slips is the next question. Well, you know, I've never had one, so I don't know how I'd personally deal with it, but I've had many sponsees who possibly have. They usually stop calling me before they slip, so I don' t even know if they have or not, but actually, I had one girl, she asked me to sponsor her and And, you know, she went out and relapsed. And she called me, and she was crying. And she was, oh, so sorry that she didn't do the work and, you know, all this stuff. And I'm ready now, whatever. And so I said, why don't you come over and detox on my couch? You know, and just, she was home alone. So I said to her, you know, I work from home. Why don't you come on over and hang out at my house for the day? And so she did. And, uh, you know, I let her detox and throw up and eat my food and throw it up and et cetera, et cetera. And at the end of the day I laid out to her what she would need to do to stay sober, what I had to do to stay silver, what was in the big book and you know, and all that stuff. And I never heard from her again. And uh, I heard later on through the grapevine that I was much too rigid and I was asking way too much of her and she just was not possibly going to be able to do that and and I just laughed I thought it was so funny that uh you know a day after you know throwing up everything you ate that you were still weren't willing to do what we do here you know and it like it's just it's ironic to me you know, and I'm saying this all from opinion because I've never relapsed but it's iconic to me that somebody who doesn't want to do the work would stay i think if i didn't want to do the work there's no reason why i would hang out with you people like i just would not be here i would be somewhere else you know um i just don't think i'd be here but uh very much my opinion i i uh i don't know thank you real quick last two last two questions here how to deal with slips very simply uh god gives second chances and so do i you know if it's good enough for god it's goodness for me i've gotten to get sober several times and i'm okay with that there used to be a time if a guy kept relapsing kept relapse and i would finally just say buddy something's not working here and i encourage you to talk to old so-and-so here he could probably maybe you guys would identify more and i try to lead him in the direction of somebody else i don't uh you know it's so absurd guys call up i'm very sorry i I drank. It's like, dude, you're an alcoholic. That's what alcoholics do. You know, it's weird to apologize to another alcoholic for drinking. That is a weird practice in Alcoholics Anonymous. I'm so ashamed. But look around, man. Like, what are you ashamed of? We've done more damage in the state of Minnesota in this room than you could have possibly done in the month that you were out drinking. Don't worry about it, you know. The other deal is we get down to brass taxes. are you ready to do this yet? Alcohol is the best thing we have in this entire universe for Alcoholics Anonymous. You listen to people talk about how much they hate drinking and hey, it's the weirdest thing ever. Alcohol is a great persuader. I don't want to pay back the money. Guess what? Four and a half years of absolute hell on earth and I became real willing to make the amends. I became really willing to do this rather just not a very fun program of recovery I became willing to do it because alcohol beat me into state of submission so you know is reading this article by Dr. Silkworth and he said UAAs are the only ones that make a big deal out of an alcoholic drinking that's a paraphrase Paul don't talk to me after the meeting we're the ones that make it a big alcoholics drink by nature that's what we do the miracle of Alcoholics Anonymous is a way of living that can enable us to not have to drink today. Pretty cool. Can a person sponsor more than one person? How many is too many? I'm currently sponsoring five guys. I'm not sponsoring five guys as in five brand new guys. I'm working with five guys that over the course of the oldest sobriety with him at two years, down to a guy with 60 days and sprinkled throughout that deal. So these are not guys that are very high maintenance. They're out kicking butt, taking names, living life, doing the deal. And what I've found for me is I can work most effectively with like one brand newcomer at a time, possibly two. There's been times that I've taken on five, six, seven new guys within the stretch of a couple weeks because I was speaking a lot and people were asking, and people were asking. And I just don't feel that's responsible. I have enough friends who can adequately sponsor someone that I believe it's my responsibility to take them by the hand and get it put into the hand of another person that can help them. Because I can, in my arrogance, think that I can sponsor a whole mess of guys. If I'm sponsoring guys that are already doing the deal, fantastic. But to take on a bunch of newcomers, my life is just too full. So I work with one brand new guy at a time. and the guys that I sponsor that still stick around and don't go find deeper spiritual giants, which some of them probably ought to. Because I've only got one message, do what's in the book. I don't have all the latest self-help spiritual stuff anymore. I tried it, it doesn't work for me, so I just stick to our history and I stick to Alcoholics Anonymous and I seek God in other ways. But the deal is, I tried grouping guys up like get like seven newcomers in a room and try to take them through the book at the same time. Just me. Ooh, there's some ego, you know, there's Samaritans I'm not saying it won't work for the people I'm saying for me, it just didn't work by way of my experience that they didn't, I didn't have enough time to devote to their every waking. Why me moment? You know, I, I can only work with one fresh guy at a time. Uh, so, so that's just kind of the deal. You know? We're, uh, i'm gonna let kelly come on up here and kind of close up any thoughts she has but other than that um i want you to understand everything that we that i've shared today is filtered through my experience and it may not be your experience but understand like i don't know most of you personally and it wasn't any personal shot at you i wasn't trying to be adversarial i just love alcoholics anonymous and sponsorship has been one of the richest relationships i've ever known is being a sponsor and being sponsored. And, and I just, I'm just so grateful for the opportunity and not only to be here, but to be a sponsor, and to have experiences. And hopefully some of you got something out of this. If you didn't, that's cool too. I just was up here doing my dance and Kelly was doing hers. And I will speak for both of us when I say that we had a pretty good time today. So I think we're going to, Kelly's going to come on up. We're going to do a little break and then uh do some questions and answers open mic stuff um if you guys are still uh willing and able I think Dustin covered that how many is too many uh sponsees or whatever I know that for me I always say yes to a woman because most of them don't stay So I just always say yes. But, you know, today has been just absolutely wonderful. You know, my fear left right away in the morning, so I was very grateful for that. But like Dustin said, you Know, he took the words out of my mouth. We are not experts on this. It is trial and error. You know? We've tried many different things. You know we've made mistakes. You know, I'm shocked that Dustin didn't share his wonderful story about kidnapping somebody, sponsoring them on the beach, and one day steps one through nine. You know? It was rather nuts, but, you know, kind of disappointed I didn't get to hear that today. But we've made mistakes in this, and it's all trial and error, and we all make mistakes, and, you Know, but it's fun to do. and you get a lot of good stories out of it. But we are so grateful to be here and so grateful that you guys invited us in. It's great to see this many people at a district function. That's just cool. So thanks for letting us. Thank you.