Mental Obsession and Delusion – Herb K – Workshop – Part 7 of 25 – Herb

Good afternoon, good evening. My name is Herb. Welcome to our Big Book 12-step workshop. Please join me in prayer for an open mind. God, please set aside everything that I think I know about myself, my brokenness, the 12 steps in you For an open mind and a new experience of myself, my brokenness, the 12 steps, and especially you. Please join me in the serenity prayer. God, grant me the serentity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things can and wisdom to know the difference we're looking at the most subtle and subversive aspect of step one addiction the first half of the first step and I say it that way because the allergy the doctor's opinion is very straightforward It's concrete. It's about chemistry. It is about biology. In the big book, of course, it's about alcohol. I broaden it to any form of addiction process or substance. And it's pretty straightforward when I start, I cannot stop. But it's much more subtle and less straightforward. Once I stop, I cannot stay stopped. Really? No choice powerless. And we're looking at obsession and we're looking at delusion. We're looking at is this knowledge? Is this premeditation? Is this a decision? What is it So when I stop, and I stop for a while, I can't stay stopped. And sometimes I'm aware of picking up and my relapse. And sometimes I am absolutely unaware of it. And there are different patterns and different proportions of what I just said experienced by each person but the question that i challenge you to challenge yourself with and i really mean it don't overlook this challenge to yourself after a period of abstinence i don't care whether it's a day or a weekend or a week or a month or a year after a period of abstinence by your definition a commitment to not use the substance or engage in the process after one period did you relapse what were you thinking or feeling or aware of or conscious of two to three to five minutes that time period before the relapse before the ingestion of the substance before the engagement with the process what were you thinking feeling aware of conscious of in your history that's why it's important to take a look at the questions that are posed in the mind worksheet you're welcome to finish it now to complete that worksheet by next week I'm not setting a target date I'm just sort of setting a guideline a suggestion now you've been asking I hope the questions and holding the questions and not answering but reflecting on your own personal history in light of those questions and now it's time to put something in writing but be specific and you'll hear it today in our workshop and you will hear it tomorrow in the listeners workshop I'll engage people at a level of specificity that you might not have experienced so far because it's drilling down into the specifics almost tedious specifics in which the experience can be precipitated I know that that was my experience with this man who took me through the steps the second time the first time the man took me to III got and had an experience with the phenomenon of craving i don't recall any information or journey in looking at any problem with the mind any concept of the obsession any concept of the delusion any i had no experience that first time i'm saying it that way because it's my observation that it's a process and that gives lots of people a lot of room a lot reinforcement that they don't have to have an immediate experience with all of this all at once oh my god that's certainly not my experience it was over a 10-year period I got sober in 84 I had an experience the first time with the steps and in step one only the doctor's opinion three years later i had an experience with the mind but only the mind in step 1 and 3 years later 10 years sober already having two spiritual awakenings already being in step studies and book studies and sponsoring people and taking him through the steps i was completely clueless with regard to the final piece of step one the part after the dash on manageability we're not going there yet tonight we'll look at jim's story i don't believe we'll get further than that i've asked you to read jim story and read fred's story pages 35 to 43 and to compare them how are they the same and how are they different but i now have experience with unpacking it we did so on sunday to know that we'll only get through jim's story and then i'll allude to the jay walker and next week we'll take a look at fred's story and do the comparison and do the distinctions this man who took me through the steps the second time met with me three different times for two hours each time to go over the same history but each time he got more specific and that's why I'm taking as long as I am and each time being more specific with you I hope to replicate in in you an experience that I had that was foundational to this aspect of step one and gave me a desperate sense of no choice, no power. Page 35 so we shall describe some of the mental states that precede a relapse into drinking for obviously that's the crux of the problem why does he relapse what is he thinking you see this is about demonstrating that knowledge is of no avail it's important let me not dismiss knowledge if I didn't understand the nature of craving as the doctor's opinion described that I couldn't have had the experience with it if I didn t understand the Nature of obsession and delusion I couldn t have applied specifically my own personal history to identify how i had been hijacked by an obsession so it's really important to have the knowledge that's why we do the dictionary work he gives us this example though of jim a charming wife and family and inherited a lucrative automobile agency had a commendable war record a good salesman everybody likes him he's intelligent oh my gosh what a wonderful guy and now it says he did no drinking until he was 35. he inherited an automobile agency this is 1939 when bill is writing this and he inherited it from his father his father probably knew a ford and got some of the first uh franchises to sell cars this guy's set up for life but he drinks and when he drinks he goes to the nut house he goes through the asylum it says but here's the key to the story page 35 the last line in the second paragraph it's the absolute key for me that opened the door to understand and apply this experience on leaving the asylum he came into contact with us who's us I have to ask it's Bill Wilson writing this story maybe Maybe remembering his early time with Bob in Akron when they went to the hospitals looking for alcoholics, when they Went to the Jails looking for Alcoholics, When they Went To The Missions Looking For Alcoholics And When They Went To the Asylums Looking For Alcoholics. But hear the lesson here. How proactive they were. There were only two of them. There was no book. There was No Understanding. There was NO Instructions. They Didn't Know What They Were Doing. But what they did know is they had to reach out and help somebody. with the six steps of the Oxford Group. And then he begins, we told him what we knew of alcoholism. Well, what did they know? Bill had been armed with facts about his own drinking from Silkworth when he went to see Dr. Bob in Akron. He knew about the body problem, powerless. He knew About the mind problem, powerless. he had had them both explained to him and he had an experience of them from Dr. Silkworth that's what he was armed with when he went to see Bob and that's what Bob could identify with not any of the spiritual stuff transformation stuff spiritual awakening stuff Bob knew much more than Bill did but Bill was able to talk about his relationship with drinking and alcohol, and Bob related to that. So that's what they're relating to Jim. But they also gave him the answer they had found because Jim is in the nut house and he knows he's powerless over alcohol. He has that experience. Every time he drinks, he goes to the insane asylum. I mean, literally insane asylum, we're talking about psychiatric here. And so they not only tell him about the problem so that Jim can identify with that and go, yeah, that's me. But once Jim acknowledges that, they tell him about the solution, the answer. What's the answer? Find God. Find a power other than yourself. He made a beginning. It's the same words that Bill uses in step three on page 63. He says this is only a beginning in step 3. now in the day when bill is and bob are experimenting with this thing in 1935 they took people through the six steps within the same meeting are you powerless over alcohol yes i go to the nut farm do you believe in god absolutely get on your knees and give your life to god and and now go in the back room there and write your inventory and we'll wait two hours later the guy comes out he reads his inventory in a fifth step by our standards and they send him out to make amends now after the amends we know that the promises are manifest listen to this his family is reassembled he began to work as a salesman he got a job now it was with his firm that he used to own but at least he's grateful to have a job all went well for a time his life is the promises are manifesting wonderfully but here ominously without much explanation bill says he failed to enlarge his spiritual life And he got drunk a half a dozen times in rapid succession. Wow, I guess we should understand what does it mean he failed to enlarge his spiritual life? Well, we don't get that information here on page 35. But eventually, because of the work that I did and the understanding of the book from cover to cover, I discovered an answer to what Bill means by that by looking on page 14 in his own story. we haven't looked at that part yet because we only looked at the first half of his story in step one we'll look at this second half of your story when we look at step two we didn't I didn't want to take a look at a solution I want to stay in the problem but I'm going to have you look on them on page 14 at the very bottom the very last line the very last line on page 14 for if an alcoholic failed to perfect and enlarge his spiritual life bingo it's the same phrase almost perfect he failed to enlarge His spiritual life through work and self-sacrifice for others oh it's not about prayer and meditation it's about carrying the message to other people step 6 by the Oxford group standards step 12 by ours helping other alcoholics helping others in a broader sense for us so he had gotten the promises and got distracted with getting his life back getting his life and his finances straightened out and he forgot that part of the solution is to sustain your spiritual awakening by bringing help and spiritual awakening to others he agreed he was a real alcoholic that's why they told him about the solution He knew he faced another trip to the asylum. He would lose his family and everything else in his life, and on page 36 it says he drank again. Now, he gives us some hints as to the background. He's got a little resentment on Tuesday. He doesn't own the firm anymore, but not a big deal. He goes out like he has many times into the field to find a buyer for cars like he has many times he stops for lunch because he's hungry now it's been a long day and he stopped there many times. He knows that there's a bar there but it's never bothered him before. Suddenly the thought crossed my mind, it's in italics, that if I were to put an ounce of whiskey in my milk it couldn't hurt me on a full stomach you see there's the obsession the thought that is a lie i ordered a whiskey and poured it into my milk i vaguely sent so he had some consciousness he had some awareness he had something feeling that he wasn't being too smart he says but it was completely overridden you see hijacked by the thought that another whiskey I can pour it into the milk and it won't bother me and I'll try another thus he again now he's fired it up he's pulled the trigger the phenomenon of craving is in place and he drinks until he goes to the asylum again but notice on page 35 it says he found himself drunk a half a dozen times in rapid succession on each of these occasions we worked with him they didn't throw them away they didn' say come back when you're serious obviously you don't want to get sober because you keep relapsing they never said any of that every time he drank six times in a row they visit him in the asylum, and they ask him what happened. Because they know he's powerless. He knows he's powerless. He faced this intense mental and physical suffering. He had much knowledge about himself as an alcoholic. He's working with the co-founders of Alcoholics Anonymous, in my story, in my speculation. I've got no evidence for this, but it makes for a good story. Yet all reasons for not drinking were easily pushed aside in favor of the foolish idea that he could take whiskey if only he mixed it with milk. Hear the delusion. Hear the lie. Hear the obsession. Hear the thought over which he has very little control. whatever the precise definition of the word may be we call this plain insanity here it is on page 37 i promised you many weeks ago that bill would give us a definition of insanity which is important of course when we're dealing with addiction what's the mental problem but it's more important and when we're dealing with step two, because step two says we're restored to sanity. We better know what insanity means in the big book. Here it is, a lack of proportion. Page 37, first paragraph. Insanity is a lack-of-proportion. You see, it comes from insanus. Sanus, Latin for health, not healthy. A lack of-proportion. Again, another definition, a lack of the ability to think straight. You see, we're not normal. Normal people learn from negative consequences to their behavior. Normal people will do it once, twice, or three times at the max, and then they will change because nobody likes suffering. But addicts forget to remember. They don't connect the dots. They don't see the puzzle piece picture. They see a lot of pieces, but they don't see the picture. They're never able to put the puzzle pieces together. What kind of thinking is this? A curious mental phenomena, insanely trivial excuse, sound reasoning failed, the insane idea won out. These are just highlights of phrases in this material on page 37. We feel justified by nervousness, anger, worry, depression, jealousy. Many of us have said, well, it won't hurt me this time. Oh, well, I've earned it. Oh well, uh, it's been one year, two years, 15 years now. I'm okay now. I got this. Insanely insufficient in light of what always happened. There is, here it is, page 37 puts the one of the nails in the coffin there is little serious or effective thought during the period of premeditation of what the terrific consequences might be jim had some vague idea he wasn't being too smart one of the contrasts is fred's story is that he didn't have any thought at all He called it a strange mental blank spot. Pay attention to that phrase, strange mental bank spot. My God, that's my story. I would never have phrased it in that way, but that's a perfect phrase for my story, 20 years of drinking, many times quitting because of the suffering that I had endured, many times for 30 days or 60 days or 90 days and always starting again with actually no remembrance of why I quit or even the reflection that I'm starting despite the fact I quit. I just began again. And so Bill gives us the Jay Walker story. I'm not going to walk you through this story. It's pretty straightforward. Bill says, it's a crazy story. Nobody deals like that and yet when we take his suggestion of substituting our relationship with our addiction to the Jay Walker story, he says, we fail to understand ourselves but we can see ourselves in this story. page 39 absolutely unable to stop drinking on the basis of self-knowledge this is the point of this section that we're dealing with today and next week it's in italics absolutely unable to stop drink on the bases of self knowledge or knowledge of everything that we are talking about your ability to understand and repeat a good definition of obsession and uh delusion and the analysis of jim and fred's story is going to be wonderful for you to help other people but it will not protect you that knowledge that understanding will not protect you this is a point we wish to emphasize and re-emphasize to smash home upon our alcoholic readers as it has been revealed to us out of bitter experience i mean that's not gentle listen to it emphasize and reinforce to smash home based on experience and that's what we're doing when we spend so much time having our dialogue about your specific experience here and that is what I would like to focus on today. We've talked several times and I've come to the conclusion that my problem that I can't overcome because I've been in the program for five years, i lost all the weight and gained it all back the problem is is um step three and we're not there yet but i just haven't been actually actually the real problem is that you don't have perhaps a commitment to a way of life 10 11 and 12. it's not about step three although it's wonderful for you to think about a more effective relationship with step three but build very clear in the big book on in step three on page 63 that that's only a beginning four through nine are the action steps that bring you to a spiritual awakening so So there's a lot of moving parts here. Let's go back here to your relationship with addiction right now, we're talking about obsession and delusion. Do you have any thoughts about or anything you'd like to share with regard to an experience after a period of abstinence or relapsing? i don't because i can't figure it out all right all right wait now now you're now you really inviting me in so so when do you have a memory of a period of abstinence that you that's recent yeah that lived well that's not budget let's let's wait let's not editorialize and tell me a story that I'm not asking for okay let's respond to my questions specifically so yes you have in your mind a period of abstinence how long was it probably two weeks wonderful That's a long period of abstinence, and how recent was that? A month or so ago. I'm abstinent now three days. All right. Let's not go there because that's wonderful. That's good. But I want to go back a month orso ago when you had two weeks of abstinnence. All right, and you were pleased with yourself for having a couple weeks of abstinence what did you do to break your abstinent what did you eat oh my gosh it's always either no no no i'm not asking you to speculate i'm asking you to remember specifically you had two weeks of abstinance and you relapsed because you ate something what did it was ice cream all right so you had two weeks of abstinence and part of your plan is not to eat ice cream and that was your commitment and so two to five minutes before you ate the ice cream tell me what you were thinking conscious of or feeling i can't remember yes you can no no i don't accept you can remember you had two weeks of abstinence and you relapse you're damn right you can remember come on work with me here I'm not trying to I'm not asking you to fake it I'm asking you to go back to were you at home or were you out I was at home all right you were at home and tell me what you were thinking about in terms of eating ice cream what was the what was them thinking going into that after two weeks of abstinence the thinking was because i wasn't emotional i wasn t mad but the thinking was i want it so bad and i m gonna have it just like a selfish kid okay i want um what flavor was it it was a um vanilla Cone that comes wrapped with nuts on top. I forget what they're called drumsticks Do you think oh, then you had it in your freezer? Yes Okay. All right I buy them by the bunch for my husband and guess who eats the majority of them All right So when did you become conscious that you buy them for your husband and that you eat them bad? I don't remember. It's always there. I always use that as an excuse All right. So you have a cycle of buying a box of drumsticks for your husband and of eating them and breaking your abstinence? Yes. This is perfect. Well, wait a minute. Well yeah. What's wrong with you that you don't remember to remember to buy not by the box because you always eat it he never does oh no he does oh you know what i mean don't don't get picky now you stay with the drift of what we're trying to do here this is not about being right this is about having an experience with this you have been cyclically buying a box and eating it he has some sure but but you eat it and thinking that when you buy it, it's for him and never remembering that you're gonna eat most of it. What's wrong with you? I'm an addict. Okay, now I see you're actually preventing yourself from having an experience because you wanna be glib and I'm not asking you to be right or glib. I'm asking you hear what I'm saying and take it in. All right, what is wrong with me? I don't know. I mean, what is the question? I mean is that a question you ask yourself? Yeah, I argue with myself. What business are you doing? I mean I remember holding the package, the box, and saying you know that this is trouble. You know that the temptation is too great. You don't need to take it home. My husband doesn't care. He doesn't have a weight problem. Did you ever think that thought before when you were buying a box of drumsticks? Yes. How many times have you thought that thought and bought the box anyway? Probably three boxes of them. Yeah, so a regular repetitive cycle that you keep repeating. Yes. Yeah, yeah, all right. so are you making a decision you mean like in step three no no I'm talking about buying a box of drumsticks yeah I was making a really can you to eat really wrong things are making a decision really huh and and so you you you make a decision to relapse every time you buy a box of drumsticks well i don't think i am but yes that's right i don t think i am and therefore i'm not making a decision i'm being hijacked by a thought that is a lie i mean you're so wrapped up in the story and the lie that you can't even see it here as we're talking about it you're right i am being hijack by the insane thinking yeah well insane in the sense of it's not healthy no it's not it's not healthy to continue to do things that you don't want to do all of my sponsors always says you cannot have that stuff in the house at least not now you cannot all right well this takes me down a different road of interrogation then so you hear you no no this is wonderful that you've revealed this so you have us why do you have a sponsor because she does help me and guide me all right but but you select as to what you'll accept and and respond to yes okay how's that working for you well it's not got any very far you've had several sponsors who have given you direction and you select what you want to do and what you don't want to do. And, and you don t get what you want to which is abstinence. Yes. Yeah. All right. How healthy thinking is that? Not very. No, it's not. So if you want to have what they're suggesting that you might have then you take all of their suggestions and if you don't like their suggestions you get a new sponsor whose suggestions that you will do so there's even an obsession and a delusion here I have a sponsor no I really don't oh I I have some kind of a parent that I can con and I'll do what I want and I'll attend that I'm in the fellowship well that isn't fair to say because she does give me good advice but just like you said before with Fred or Jim you said they didn't give up on him they went back what how many times did he drink and she's stuck with me no I understand I'm an admiration of your sponsor but i am but i'm but i m here talking to you who is being selective about taking the actions in response to sponsored direction what do you expect is going to happen if you're selective in the directions i'll continue relapsing okay crawling back and starting over again okay i mean that's been your history so that's probably the truth isn't it it is yeah and so until as chapter five says until you're rigorously honest you're not gonna get this thing chapter five yeah you know what chapter five is in the big book no i mean i've got it right here in front of me yeah how it works how it work do you hear that what is that what does that mean how it works well if you want to become sober or abstinent this is what it takes there you go and it says rigorous honesty is the foundation with yourself and with your sponsor rigorous honesty yeah hmm there you go now you're hearing me yes I feel it I see it you're hearing me finally thank you I like what you said herb about it's a puzzle that you saw the pieces there but you could never really put it quite together and And it really is just the way it was for me all those years, Herb. I always thought I was weak, that I didn't have enough willpower, that I should be listening to my wife and I don't care about her. But I never know why. I mean, any thought of any consequence or anything just didn't exist. I mean I would go through the weekend. I mean always look forward to Friday night after work because I felt like I could drink the way I wanted to. But naturally, you know, I drink too much and I pass out on the couch. Saturday, I'd drink all day with drinks Saturday night with my wife. And on Sunday, my wife was always saying to me, do you have any idea how much you drink? Why don't you just quit drinking for a couple of days? Yeah. And I'd say, OK, that sounds like a really good idea. Let's quit drinking für a couple days. I'm not that I won't drink again till next Friday, I promise. and on monday after work i'm coming home and i'm this clever clever guy you know so i put myself in a spot and the thing is is that i would start and i wouldn't even have any idea where it came from it was like it would come from nowhere i wouldn'T really think about it till the next day and then the next date oh my god i did it again i passed out on the couch last night after i told or I wasn't going to drink till Friday. Well, I'm starting fresh today by golly. And that night didn't matter what I said on Monday because it all happened again the same thing on Tuesday. Yeah, our cycle similar to all of your words but it was literally a conscious agreement with my wife that Monday night we weren't going to drink. On Monday morning before I left for work she was a stay-at-home mom. We would agree, we're not going to drink tonight until Friday. We'll wait till Friday because it's interfering with our life. And on Monday night, she would be drinking because she changed her mind. And of course, if she did, then I would, or I would be drinking when I came home, so then she would be drinking. Or I would come home and she and I were not drinking, but we danced around the kitchen in the liquor cabinet until one of us broke for it we drank and then tuesday morning we got up and said okay this was a conscious conversation that we had yes would say we're not going to drink tonight until friday tuesday night a complete repetition wednesday morning a complete repetition wednesday night a compete repetition and when this man teased that out of me in a tedious conversation like i've been having here where i keep asking for the details the details the details that was what broke it open for me i was just going to say that you know i've had many years of good sobriety but i had a limited experience and so now it's beginning to open up and some things are being revealed to me and i'm seeing that what i thought i understood about powerlessness and a phenomenon of craving and obsession i was so limited herb and this is just the most fantastic thing because i'm saying oh now i see why i did what i did even when i had good intentions i mean there were you know herb you know we were periodic hard drinkers there were many times that i exhibited horrible behavior while drunk and said the next day wow the next time it's definitely going to be different i'm going to figure this thing out oh yeah no i i quit drinking tequila because that was certainly not the right thing for me because i i got mean when i drank tequila yeah not realizing that i had the same reaction to vodka and whiskey so this is like a great awakening for me to be able to learn these things unknown because it just gets me fired up because i know more is to come i uh it's nice to know that um i really wasn't weak that i really was not consciously making a decision to go against things it's just that i had no choice i was hijacked into it i believed the lie and i went along with it and you know what the thing is is that i kept doing the same thing over and over and over again and and despite the fact you have 29 years number one this is going to deepen your own relationship with step one which will give you a bigger experience with step two but it will also allow you to be more effective with the people that you try to help thank you my experience with mental obsession so far i was reading the story about fred yesterday and i can remember that i read the story a year ago when i did the workshop for the first time and at that time i thought that i didn't like him i didn'd like fred because he seemed so arrogant and um having so little consciousness of himself and his own behavior and looking down to other people and now that i'm doing the workshop for the second year i realized that i was behaving like him for a whole year thinking that i'm not as bad as other food edits and that i'm gonna figure it out myself with maybe a little bit of help of the group but um because i haven't you know come to the extent of other food edits um it's not gonna be that hard and actually it was um it didn't lead nowhere like the whole year was running in circles and um so which 12-step program are you in oa and um how long have you been in OA approximately? So I've been in, I started with FA so I've been in food fellowships for almost three years. Three years okay and during that time have you had a recently in the last year or two Have you had a period of abstinence? No, no. Not even today? Yeah, I think the longest period that I had was 27 days. All right, how long ago was that? No, you had 27- It was in the beginning. In the beginning? In the begining, you have 27 days, that sounds like a nice long stretch. You must've been pretty happy with yourself. yeah all right did you have a sponsor yeah were you talking to the sponsor yeah yeah she was yeah she lost the best ones I had at that time yeah all right and so during that time you were talking to your sponsor during this 27 days what did you relapse on what was the food what was the occasion where were you I think a friend of mine brought some cookies that she baked herself yeah to your house yeah yeah I was sick yeah I was sick and mm-hmm she brought me the cookies yeah great and so she brings you the cookies and what are you thinking and feeling and aware of at that point I kept the cookies I thought I'm not gonna eat them I wanted just to be nice you know to appreciate her gift but I thought right yeah so I said look I'm sick I don't feel like eating the cookies but I'm going to eat them when I feel better and I had no intention of eating them yes no you were being thank you for your generation and I'm I'm gonna really enjoy these cookies then and you didn't have to tell her the truth okay so the cookies are there and in your sick and what happens and then she left and I wanted just just I thought I'm going to eat just like half of one I'm gonna eat half of 1 yeah you have 27 days of abstinence you're talking to a sponsor you're in a 12-step program because you want to manage your food properly and in a healthy way and your thought is I'm going to eat half of one was there any resistance to that thought was there any thought around that thought no I don't think so yeah and so then you had the half of cookie I heard all of them yeah of course you did all right so how much resistance how much thought did you put into that and into when before this thing the half a cookie man I don't know I don t know all I was thinking about is to to have a strategy to to eat half of the cookie like what would be what would justify eating it yeah yeah so you seem reasonably intelligent and committed to your program what's wrong with you after 27 days of abstinence that you didn't offer up more resistance yeah I think that delusion applies very well to me and you have a good sense of humor about it right that's right but see that's making the point though and that's why I get really specific is there's no resistance and even if there is some thought about it i'm going to have half a cookie it doesn't even sound like that was much of a real thought for you now of course once you take the half a cooky or the first cookie then the rest is history you've pulled the trigger and you're going to eat all of the cookies right yeah yeah yeah yep all right what's really going on is the codependency and so my story real quick boyfriend breaks up with me July 15th it's over I leave I go home I put it on this shelf my grandchild child's born I go take care of my grand child life is good boyfriend calls me a month later saying sent me an email to forgive him and I lost it I lost it I went into the obsession the delusion oh my gosh we can get back together if he does this this and this I got so obsessed with the whole idea that we could get back together now this is the third time then he broke up with me you think I would learn well yeah yeah you would if you were normal but clearly you're not though but are you in a CODA or Al-Anon or one of the codependent 12 step fellowships no I've been so active in AA and then FA and now OA that I and I really didn't think I had a problem in you know code I've been in this relationship for 17 months everything was fine so so I need wait wait wait you know i'm a little confused because you said you've broken up with them three times and now you just said you're in a relationship with him for 17 months and everything is fine help me sorry i'm sorry um we were in there for 17 months together everything was fine didn't think i need coda i really needed to stay with my food addiction and work on that it was only when he broke up with me and i realized that i was codependent and the and there's something wrong with me to think that if he did x y and z we could get back together there's some thing wrong with me i need help well but um see i'm again i'm gonna pursue this a little bit because i you said that you broke up with him three times i'm i'm not hearing it you had a relationship with him for 17 months during that period did you break up we broke up right and this yes we broke up in july of this year was the third time we broke up oh in the 17 months correct so you didn't have a relationship for 17 months well we broke up for three weeks or two weeks or so you didn't have a relationship for seventeen months correct all right no no see the lie that you're telling yourself is that you had a relationship for 17 months you didn thank you for clarifying that You had a relationship for five months and then you broke up. You had relationship for 5 months and you broke up. You had a relationship for 5 months and then you broke up. You didn't have a relationship for 17 months. You had a cyclical relationship for 17 months, but you broke up three times now. All right. So are the reasons that you broke up that he broke up with you or you broke up with him? He broke up with me. so he threw you away three times and each time he put the bait on the hook you came back correct what's wrong with you that's right that's right how much and what you you really did describe very well from my standpoint the compulsion and the obsessive thinking that went into it once he threw out the bait it was awful and thank God you taught me about obsession and insanity and delusion because I just realized well that's what I'm going through don't worry about it you know I kept praying and praying and praying and finally came to the decision it's over but herb in the back of my mind there's a little teeny-weeny bit saying maybe if he I want to get rid of that well good at least you're conscious of it and you're not acting on it meanwhile you do you have a sponsor in aa i have a sponsor an oa all right so you don't have a sponsoring aaa and yet that's your primary program well i've been sober for 17 years so food is really what so what i did is i ate over this situation now food is what i'm working on now i i understand i'm going to come back is aa your primary program i don't know what that means because i have so many addictions well um your introduction to 12-step recovery was in aaa correct and you're sober 17 years correct did you are you still connected to aaa i go to zoom meetings and i have friends in our in aa so you're not really much connected to aaa okay so then you you i can see why you don't have a sponsor in aa then so now you're connected to oa did you say correct and you have a sponsor in oa correct have you talked about this codependency cycle with your sponsor in oe yes i have oh okay all right good yeah um okay well so um i suggest that you really just focus on your current active relationship program oa and do this work and see if it probably uh indirectly deals effectively with this codependency which i suspect it will okay great yeah all right thanks okay um you know i feel like i might be getting the will and the mind confused here but something that's been coming up in the past few weeks is um immaturity and i feel right before i'm gonna fall off the wagon or whatever we want to call it my motives are always very immature it's very me driven or you know somebody told me um all right so rather than try to describe uh in a conceptual way do you have a period recent of abstinence where you had a relapse that you want to talk about sure there's plenty and and what is your 12-step fellowship again oh wait all right and so um what is the length of time of the abstinence that you have in mind uh it was about 30 days i would say all right and how recent is that it was last year in october okay so just a year ago you had 30 days and you had tried really hard before that and you finally had 30 Days and you're really happy with yourself did you have a sponsor yes were you talking to the sponsor yes probably not as well as i should have but yes what does that mean um well i wasn't doing everything i needed to be doing which is why i eventually well but you're saying you were you weren't you were talking to your sponsor but you weren't telling her the truth and you weren t following her direction right toward the end right toward the end of what the 30 days so it started off me doing it all correctly and then I progressively started to omit information yeah yeah you you progressively became dishonest and so what did you relapse on what was the what did your name do you remember I don't remember but I know it was probably around a birthday party cake birthday so yeah are we cake if you can reconstruct somewhat the situation what were you thinking or feeling after 30 days of hard-earned abstinence you're thinking about eating some cake well I earned this I've earned it yeah all right what else yeah I mean it's basically that I think my ego just takes over I've done so well I can definitely handle it now I can handle this now have you ever had that thought before when you had some abstinence at all every time how many times would that have been repeated perhaps in your efforts at I mean I feel like that is my entire even with like process addiction please I've got it this time this time it's the obsession of I have got control this time yeah all right and and that are you saying that's never worked never well what's gonna be different now no clue yeah okay i mean my practice and you know having to do this i see why you started with us doing the the morning practice because it's kind of centering us in the morning getting us connected to our higher power and not a day run on self-will because when i run the day on self will then i inevitably think i have control and i'm driving the bus again and here we go down the merry-go-round again yeah and and i can't control whether i have that thought or not that's really the issue right connection to power that's the real point i'm glad we're bringing it to conclusion on this conversation because that's the real poin that is i think i have power even if i'm not conscious that i think that I must think that because I relapse. I'm not connected effectively to a power other than myself. Otherwise, I would be in a position of neutrality. Sometimes I think about it in a way that I have it, and sometimes I don't think about It at all. I just am doing It before I even think about I. Right. Yeah. this is why it's in step one no choice powerless these are words we hear so many times we become brain dead to it that's why it so important to use the worksheet on the mind not as a test to be completed or a task to be accomplished but as a prompter to challenge myself in the same way that i'm doing with this verbal challenge is to really get really specific as to how clear is my thinking how clear is my decision how much power did i have how much power don't i have at that particular moment to resist the action right yeah the thought the knowledge the power the decision before we ingest or engage what happens after we do is of no doubt and no relevance because that's all about the doctor's opinion what we're looking at That is, that five minutes of awareness, of consciousness, of feeling, of premeditation, how much is in that or how much is missing? Are we aware? Are we conscious? Do we have feelings about it? are we making a decision what does it mean powerless and no choice and when you read Fred's story and even the jaywalkers story again be thinking about those kinds of questions I constantly promised myself I'm not going to and then I get right back into it all over again and I never realized I've made excuses out around why they I need this I it's a so round and round I'm gone but what you're describing is your experience with being for the first time this cycle of rationalization yes Because that's really what it is. And, you know, there's nothing essentially wrong with eating whenever you want to, unless in fact you're committed to a program where you don't do that and where you have any desire to lose weight or have a different body size. I mean, you can do anything that you want as long as you're willing to live with the consequences, right? yes yes the point is what are you thinking yeah that's all and how effective has your thinking been the only questions yeah yeah and on your own power so far it seems like you've cyclically not been very effective Definitely not. Yeah, yeah. And the promise of this process is not about the food or the addiction primarily. It's about a relationship with power. And as a byproduct of that, you will be empowered to live in neutrality with regard to your addiction. Well, and I've even beat myself up about the fact that I must not have a very good relationship with my higher power. Not that I'm not trying to get it and grow it. But rather than beat yourself up with the negative thought, see it as a potential fact. i'm not saying whether it is or isn't true but say well this may be the problem all right and and that's a diagnosis it's not a judgment it's just a diagnosis so what can i do about it how can i mean this is rhetorical for you now to think about this what could you do today what could you do tomorrow that would incrementally move you in the direction of potentially having a better relationship with a higher power that really is rhetorical I'm not looking for an answer I mean I'm not trying to stop you from answering it but I want you to really ask yourself that question okay and maybe on a daily basis as part of your quiet time or morning meditation I am I will I will do that and be gentle it's not about negativity and beating yourself up and the moaning your failure and oh my self pity quicksand no that's that's not healthy it's human it's just not healthy it doesn't help us yeah i realized that one of the reasons why i kept breaking was because i really wasn't willing that's hard for me to say herb but i i'm gonna do my best to call call it what it is and especially with reading jim's story and and everybody's story i was not willing i wanted the food more than i wanted my sanity more than i wanted a right-sized body yeah what brought you to that awareness i'd be very interested the readings i've been doing listening to everybody's shares listening to you i think that it's a combination of everything yeah good i can say that i'm getting a connection with my higher power that i that i do have one but in the back of my mind is my fear that i'm going to have a break because that's what i do that is my otis operandi yeah that's a that's just it's a mild trauma it's kind of a mild condition response that you have but as you practice and are uh meeting your own expectations that be that'll diminish over time but it might take several months for that awareness and that feeling to go away but it will eventually go away okay and then i hear you talk about neutrality that once we start doing step i think it's eight nine ten or nine ten ten eleven and twelve ten eleven and twelve we will then have neutrality right okay it can't happen before then oh it could absolutely um my own case on february 20th they uh 1984 they asked me to quit eating quit drinking and i quit my last drink was februari 20th my sobriety day is februar 21st i didn't go to aa for another two months i didn t pray i didn d make a decision to quit it was just removed oh yeah I know it can happen at any time absolutely so chance but chances are because I've relapsed there's no predicting except that I can say with certitude what the book says there may be an indication in step three there may be page 63 the promises at the top of page 63 there may be in the end of the fifth step read those promises at end of page 75 it's it's indicative but it's not cut it doesn't confirm but after step 9 in step 10 it confirms that black and white if you when you finish your ninth step you will be placed in a position of neutrality so that's all i can say is when it when it will happen is not uh nothing that we can predict or or precipitate i just wish i could fast track to nine well yeah i mean you watch too many disney movies i know i i don't want to live in this fear verb i don t i'm afraid that if i break i don' t have another start in me this time well you see that's your ego talking that's what i wanted to know that's just your ego talking to you that's not true all right but it also is not a necessary thought so when the thought comes just pray for the removal of the thought and the fear that goes with it okay that's what I wanted and then talk to somebody about it you engage that 10th step it says when we're disturbed fear is one of the things that disturb us engage that tenth step pray talk to your sponsor perhaps or anybody and then try to help somebody that's when you give back that's what you do sir okay got it thank you the biggest pattern for me is um believing after a certain amount of time um that i have that i had neutrality yeah you know that i feel like i've i've got it like somebody said i mean that's a wonderful feeling but what does it mean to you what do you change when you have that feeling when i feel like i have it like i got it yeah that then i will be able to to eat whatever and then it will not yeah it will I will be normal normal you know and um maybe page 30 made an impression on you and it said that we uh will never be normal yeah let me just quote it it's such a powerful phrase because Bill knows who we are as human beings we're not different no matter what our addiction is it says the delusion that we are like other people or presently maybe has to be smashed I don't care whether you have five months five years or five decades not one person who's an addict on this call will ever be normal and a non addict it will it's just never going to happen once a pickle always a a pickle yeah yeah yeah i mean yeah once we can lean into and accept and embrace that then that that thought i've got it now i can eat whatever it is like i would if i were normal that's that'sthat lurking notion that someday i'll be okay yeah and that's why we're spending so much time on it so that we actually do smash that delusion I decided that it was time for me to look up the word obsession again in the dictionary and you know this is something that I hadn't seen before when you scroll down to the very bottom where it talks about root words. It comes from a 16th century root word that means siege. And I thought, wow, there was never a more perfect picture of what the mental obsession does to my mind. It is an all out siege and I literally have no effective mental defense against that first bite. And, and I am, you know, gotten even more fully convinced that I'm beyond human aid. But, you know, just going back and having that step one experience where we're all talking about how we got into our last relapse. Yeah, I mean, have got to have God because I literally don't have a defense. so I'm just grateful thanks so much it's sunk into a new level yeah thank you for that I'm actually marking my big book in the margin with that term because it's so powerful it really askers the underbelly of the word doesn't it yeah and and that's really the purpose of this going over it going over it, going over and going over. And oh my God, will we never be done? You know, and yeah, we will be but not before we embrace and potentially have a deep experience because we've allowed it to saturate us. Yeah. dishonesty about myself what I do to myself playing these little games with the caffeine with a little creamer not supposed to have creamer I have some protein powder to go along with my exercises as a senior citizen and I don't tell my sponsor about that that's not on my food plan I rationalize it as nobody will know I can get away with it hey I'm doing everything else i'm not giving this up i'm not in the bars chasing women or selling or doing drugs anymore you know nobody's perfect and that's a good one let's see where was going but it it hasn't been effective it's been masking uh medicating throughout the day but it's still with the mind blocking me from having the best um consciousness with god that i could have yeah i feel like it's a it sends my uh hamster on a wheel you know where i can't um listen to what god really would like to tell me and comprehend or have that connection and uh but then there's the willingness i mean it's like i'm not flipping willing right now i i know i need this program my um i've got that revolver with four or five bullets in at playing russian roulette you know like you said my mom od'd at 50. my dad drank to the graveyard it's a blessing i haven't run back to the alcohol or drugs in 32 years but with food you know it's just a lot of people commit suicide with our uh and that's what the disease wants yeah intentionally or unintentionally and um yeah and you want to be 500 pounds and it's probably not it's probably not very consoling but i really do recommend the food addicts here be very patient with themselves and they hear me talk about freedom and neutrality and all of the wonderful words that you actually want to experience and of course it's down the road some and it's really going to be patience and trust this process that there will at some point be the gift of freedom if you stay diligent and show up and as you said not perfect i mean we're never going to transcend our humanity at the same time though i hear that a bit yeah i can get away with it you see that's the delusion that's the thought that's the obsession it's a lie because even if quote you don't get caught or your sponsor doesn't know and there are no obvious consequences number one you know and number two there's always going to be consequences to unhealthy behavior, whether you're aware of it or not. So you never get away with it. At the very most, your body is corrupted. Excuse me, at the very least, your body has corrupted. At the verymost, your soul is corrupted, so you never get away with it, but we don't know that and we do believe it, alright? It's kind of like playing games as children with your parents and you didn't get cotton and you feel you got away with something and yet you really never do exactly yeah so where I was going with that is another mantra and I love these quick little hits to help us remind ourselves of the value proposition and so I challenge people how free do you want to be now you may not even be able to translate that into something that's tangible because i know what it means to be as free as i could never have imagined 30 years ago so even asking the question is unfair because you have no way of creating the reality that's in front of you with fidelity to this program. I could not, I could Not. I mean, that I have a joy every day that I'm a published author with three books, that i'm, you know, etc, etc. That I have A family that's together and recovered And it's kind of like, you know, how do you get here from there? It's not possible. And yet here I am. And I could never have written the script. Yeah. I've got a life that I'm so blessed, but what I just sabotaged myself. Got eight beautiful grandkids, a beautiful wife. Everybody's healthy. nice home uh job that's been a bountiful through the covid god's blessed me for years but i keep myself in tension because of my behavior i call i create that tension see that that awareness and ability to articulate it is a spiritual awakening 90 percent of the human race could never have articulated that because they're not aware of it so that's a real gift too and and hanging out with us and doing this work a month six months nine months down the road probably you're going to connect and get some traction with whatever this itch is in you that's creating this awareness of suffering yeah sounds great thank you it is great yeah it is great and it's good to have that perspective of gratitude for the wonder of your life at the same time if there's any area of dissonance in your life that's the area that will take you out if not dealt with it's a small small small issue perhaps but it's like a small cancer if not treated it metastasizes and it chokes the physical life out of you and the spiritual life certainly and you called it dissonance this sentence yes the lack of harmony yeah yeah if there's any lack of Harmony in your life dissonants um nails nails on a blackboard bad sound it comes from the latins of sound sona meaning sound sonar meaning sound dissonance meanings like a really scratchy sound okay all right well thank you i was a periodic i had never heard that term before yeah it wasn't my story that every time i ate sugar i ate the whole bag i had so many examples of well that christmas i only had a bite of your cake you ate more cake than i did you know and that was really keeping me out of the rooms because I even when I would get sponsored by women and they would say you know well it's just like you know you take one bite and you're off and running and I was like well no I'm not all the time that's it but when I am I really really am so you can never predict never predict I never knew I never new so it was really that term the periodic I could really opt in and identify in for the very first time with both feet i'm so glad that you say it because i say it fairly regularly but only every once in a while does somebody acknowledge that it was helpful but it's enough that i know that it is because it's so it's kind of unusual and it's not talked about very much yeah yeah thank you so much what happened five minutes before i ate to two minutes and my first frequent conversation is oh this won't matter oh this one matter yes and what i've learned is that it's really a metaphor for i don't matter oh nice or or my abstinence doesn't matter yeah well i don't matter because my absence doesn't and what i have i've jumped over that chisholm where you know to go to the winning side before it was just like so about the food uh the the relapse and i just could not want to put the food down no matter what i did and a lot of people tried to help me and um a lot of people gave me extra margin um i like to think because i'm so charming and smart and whatever but you know the more manipulative well okay that too and and narcissistic narcissistic i'll come in the room and take over the room and um i totally identify with that well recovery my experience is it's progressive too and as you make one day at a time progress i use the term thawing out physically for four years and then thawing out emotionally for a few years and then flying out spiritually for a few years i mean literally it was falling out as i look back over my shoulder i'm not talking literal i'm just metaphorical to explain this very glacially slow process of change now um it is going to be just what it is going to be and we can't precipitate it by our own knowledge or our own actions actually that's the thing that gives us a slight amount of contentment and a slight amount of irritation at the same time yeah that's really hard for me ultra controller and ultra achiever and uh real hard fighter and i want to get this right i want to get it right fast and and that's a real been a real asset in your life i would imagine that it's been very rewarding at some points it's also probably been a source of irritation for you and the other people around you yeah i would my husband sometimes agree with that yeah i seem to be the target for their arrows and slings a lot you you paint a bullseye on your back yes i do and i have had to leave the dinner table because of their ridicule and they're making fun of me they don't do it to my husband they do it too me and i seem to be a magnet for it and i don't understand it i do that is true but you will at the end of the fourth step okay yeah well it feels like I just will need to go totally mute you know well um I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that although quite frankly that could be a spiritual invitation to silence and to attempt to practice that more than uh control and or voicing your opinion and see if in fact that doesn't balance out you and your environment i i'm not suggesting it i'm just saying do not throw that away that was not an accident that you said that ah hmm i resonated very very much for you with what you said yeah that's painful because i feel like i have to give up my whole personality to be a non-addict you know like i just have to well first of all you're not going to be anon addict ever and you're not giving up your personality you're giving up your delusion of the mask that you're wearing that you think is your personality and you don't know that you don t know because the mask fits so comfortably but my tap dance has been so successful in so many places and then then continue it don't change it no no yeah exactly that's right that's right and i so i'm hearing a little resistance so again re-examine your commitment to spiritual intervention of set aside the spirit's coming at you with a crowbar yeah and you're battening down the hatches yes fine you're gonna do fine because first you got a lot of great commitment courage and energy and but I hear the willingness yeah the smashing of the delusion piece i'm really struggling with um i have first of all you you can't do it all right you you can't smash it that would be the ego attempting to solve the problems of the eagle by the ego all right so einstein said the consciousness that created the problem cannot be the consciousness that solves the problem we need need a new consciousness that's what this is about a spiritual awakening is a new consciousness and it's a gift of the spirit so go ahead with what you're talking about so my thing is is that I've always felt that I could that I can fix it and do better so that's my delusion that I'll do it tomorrow oh it's always tomorrow so yeah I joke that if there was such a thing as procrastinators anonymous that would be perfect for me i'm a i'm uh i'm a professional procrastinator and i truly believe that i i could do it tomorrow i i understand the illusion what's underneath what does procrastination mean what's underneath it do you have a sense of that i just i i don't but what i want to say is that i'm I'm so pulled and enamored with the instant gratification that I'm not capable of doing the restriction for the long-term gain. Yeah, that's not really procrastination. That's really addiction and immaturity. I mean, that is the inability for delayed gratification, which is the definition of immatuity. All right? A three-year-old does not know how to have delayed gratication. And as we become more adults, we learn if in fact we want to have a better life that short-term pain gives us long-term gain. But that's the process here. But the word procrastination is just a fancy word for fear. So does it still fit? well i don't know maybe not what what does mean i'll do it tomorrow then what would be a because or i'll Do it later, I'll do it later. I'll start certainly is procrastination. But why are you putting it off? What are you what are you afraid of? Because I don't want to give up what I want and I don't have to do what I don t want to do. Okay, so so you really don't want to do it you want to have it as an experience with a magic wand you don't really want to do it, you want it without any work again that's immaturity and the fantasies of a three-year-old. So how do I roll that into accepting it not just in my head but in my heart and and leading to the steps of it being smashed what what do i do to make that happen you're coming at this it's wonderful um the presenting problem as you see it right now it may not be what actually it turns out to be and i don't know anything here i'm just saying that so go into step one with this awareness that you're addicted to immediate gratification and uh you're adverse to delayed gratification, and deal with the parts of step one and the questions of the body and the mind and the will when we get to it around that. And be very, very, very patient until we get into the fourth step. Because so much is going to be revealed in the fourth steps. A good friend of mine says the fourth step itself is the first step in writing because we really see our powerlessness over our resentments. We really see our powerlessness as displayed in our fear. We really see our powerlessness as manifest in our dishonesty and our inappropriate sexual behavior. And so, as we do the fourth step, we have a whole new experience with the underlying powerlessness. So, just be patient. You've at least name something that you're aware of is the dynamic that interferes with you getting what you want or at least what you think you want okay thank you yeah well I may be very unsatisfactory as a response to your question um if you can in fact just embrace it lean into it and do this work and by the time you're finished the fourth step report back to us um the this very conversation and what your experience is with finishing the fourth Step I'd be very surprised if this doesn't bring it home for you by the Time you finish the four step now we're now we are talking about six months from now so you know that's kind of the catch-22 for you you wanted an answer today and i'm already telling you it's going to be in six months you'll have your answer i think just as long as i know that there's i think hearing the fact that i can't smash it is i think what i needed to hear right now because yeah i feel like i'm just failing at accomplishing yet another thing well that's see but that's a recognition of your powerlessness i am failing in smashing that's exactly right we learned that we had to fully concede to our innermost self that we were addicts the delusion that we are like other people or presently has to be smashed it doesn't say we have to smash it it says it has to be smashed it's going to be done and I mentioned when we looked at the very second meeting that we had we looked appendix to the spiritual awakening and I said it's an awakening alright but it's done to us not by us and that's my experience in each of the steps on the journey Oh, I do a lot of work to show up and do the writing and the reading and the reflection, et cetera. But the impact on me of that work is disproportionately larger than the work that I contributed. By virtue of that, I evaluate that there is a power other than myself that's in the mix here, that X plus factor. It's mystery. I can't explain it. I just observe it and try to name it Okay, thank you no, thank wonderful discussion Do you have a sponsor? Yeah, well that was actually my addendum to this So I have a wonderful sponsor in Al-Anon that I've been working with for a while she's very gentle and that works for me I think with what I'm learning in my codependency work and I'm actually on step nine there well I'm but it doesn't matter because my point was that you talked to your sponsor about that very issue and in terms of the tool that you would use to deal with this agitation that you have. It does involve some inventory, but I call it the tenth step. Prayer, talking, inventory, making an amends if you've done something that you need to clean up right now and then trying to help somebody else. That's why I introduce it right at the beginning of the workshop so that it could take these sort of disturbances as the speed bumps as they occur that you can deal with them with this tool while we're getting down to the fourth step to do the mother load of all inventory yeah because I think sometimes so I've actually been utilizing that and it's been really helping me like in the moment I'm praying finding a fellow or even in text whatever in that process do you feel that there needs to be a specific kind of like inventory that happens of like figuring out exactly what character defects are coming up to create the emotion do what is necessary step 10 is a recap of steps one through nine so there have been times when i have in fact sat down and wrote out some step 10 stuff i don't normally write it out i mostly just talk it out with somebody but there are times when i need to take a look at a character defect and unpack it a little bit by journaling and then talking about it with somebody so that i get it the relief of talking about it type thing so shape it to your needs yeah yeah so it might be that right now it requires like talking about doing some writing whatever's going on and just make it work until we get to the fourth step and it kind of there's a more holistic oh yeah okay that makes sense so we started do some i do what i can to keep it together right now and we'll get to the more holistic thing in a couple months at this yes yes yes yes at the same time um you might revisit what you do in meditation and and how make sure that you're spending some quality time quiet and listening for guidance that's good yeah all right thank you that's really helpful thank you well once again the time is whizzed by i really appreciate your showing up your courage your diligence your vulnerability thank you so much please join me in the serenity prayer god grant me the serendipity to accept the things i cannot change courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference.