The Third Column and Deep Resentments – Herb K. – Workshop – Part 1 of 25 – Herb

My name is Herb, and I'm an alcoholic. Welcome to our Big Book 12-step Zoom workshop. Please join me in prayer for an open mind and open heart. God, please set aside everything that I think I know about myself, my brokenness, the 12 steps, and you for an open mind and a new experience of myself my brokenness the 12 steps and especially Please join me in the serenity prayer. God grant me the serenity to accept the things that cannot change, courage to change the things I can and wisdom to know the difference. We've been looking at step four and we took a step forward in looking at a new piece of work the prayer for the removal of deep resentment. The big book suggests that we do that after we finish the third column and, of course, we haven't finished the third column but I made a decision which I've done regularly in my annual workshops to introduce the pages 66 and 67 as soon after you get some feel for the third column as is reasonable so that you can begin identifying the deep resentments that you have and getting a little help in having them diminished and removed and that's the whole point of that material on the prayer for removal of deep resentment i want to be very clear i want you to be very clear it is not a prayer for the other person it's a prayer for you about the other person each one of us if we have a resentment especially if we have a deep resentment have had a negative reaction to some circumstance or event or person and it's our reaction that needs to be healed you're welcome to pray for the other person that's a wonderful spiritual practice but it's not what's suggested here in the big book it's a prayer for ourselves for our own healing as i mentioned inviting the divine surgeon or whatever it is that you've decided is the power in the universe to come and radiate that cancer in you to burn it out or to have the surgery analogy to cut it out or to have the chemotherapy analogy as a chemical mechanism to disintegrate that cancer because the last thing we want is any seed of a cloud in us of darkness because that cloud metastasizes over time the darkness expands and it squeeze out the light it squeezes out the power it squeezES out a relationship that protects us from our obsession and that's the whole point identifying and removing the obstacles and bill said and we saw it on page 66. what he had said on page 62 on page 62 with regard to unmanageability said we can't even reduce it much by wishing or trying on our own power we're as powerless over our unmanaged ability and spiritual malady as we are over alcohol that's the whole point of step one unmanageability and the whole point here of step four in terms of resentment is illustrated there on page 66 these resentments must be mastered but how we could not wish them away any more than alcohol bottom of page 66 it couldn't be clearer it doesn't need interpretation the meaning is very eight inch headlines we're as powerless over our deep resentment as we are over alcohol therefore we pray and so today i would like to hear from you concerning your deep resentments and your prayer practice whether or not you're doing it and if you are doing it what your experience is but mostly I want to focus on the third column as I think I mentioned last time we will hold off on unpacking the fourth column until maybe next week i'm pretty confident next week although you've had the assignment to read that last paragraph it's pretty straightforward it has five questions in it on page 67 and i've indicated that if you want to experiment do a sort of a test beta test site with your column for you're welcome to do that and i'm welcome to attempt to help you confirm and or clarify unpacking the fourth column if you've done some work there but i want to stay really focused on column three as well as whatever comments you want to make on the removal of deep resentments or i resent jackie for calling me stupid for taking her keys and it says what is my deep belief about who i am and um i said that i'm extremely intelligent and i have great abilities yes what is my fear um that my family will see me as being stupid okay and then um my pride how do i want other people to see me is being treated and i said others should see me or others should see jackie treating me as a queen who can do no wrong yeah what is my fear um that my family won't see me as the queen yeah yeah um what do i want to happen on the ambition part and i wasn't sure how that i wasn t sure what happened well what would what would you have wanted I mean, I would have wanted not to have accidentally taken her keys. Okay, but given the fact that you did, what would you have wanted her reaction to be? Okay, so I put that down under personal relations, you know, but I wouldn't want her reaction would be, okay, don't worry about it, just bring them back. Yeah, i understand an accident so that's what i understand but the personal relations is more about the model of what your expectation is from other people when you make a mistake okay okay okay so so what i want to happen i would have wanted her to you know just say okay mistakes happen can you bring my keys home yeah okay and then for the security what do i need to be what do I need in order to be okay and why you know and I just said um you know I need love and understanding that's great why and why because I'm a sensitive soul I mean I'm very sorry get hurt easily okay my feelings get hurt easily all right and what's your fear the people will see that about being not like me Okay. Yep. Good. All right. So under the personal relations, how do I expect this relationship should be? And that's what I expect, this relationship to be perfect. Yeah. Which is not real, but we're supposed to be putting down what we really think. Well, but you're searching to see what you actually believe. I believe. I do. I believe it should be perfect, we should be like sisters. People could cut me a lot of slack. Mm hmm. Okay. Okay, okay. And your fear? Well, what you said about, you know, people cutting me slack that is how I feel. Um, and I guess my fear would be that, um, I don't know that, uh, struggling a little bit here because I just want people to treat me, you know, just be forgiven. Yeah. My fear is there's no margin for error. Okay. What do you think? I think that's right. Okay. And under this sex part, a real ideal model woman I think should always be loving, kind and tolerant. Motherly like or grandmotherly like. Okay, got it. And your fear is? That they won't be. You know, they'll rip me to shreds or say something that really hurts me or cuts deep. And I didn't know about this pocketbook business. Well, what about the value? Emotional value. Well, my effective value is the emotional security. Yeah. But I don't know. Nothing should interfere with effect. everybody should intuitively know how such a sensitive Susie I am okay okay does that does that resonate with you it does I just was struggling when I got down to that part because I wasn't sure sure how to do it yeah no you're you're you're doing fine you're quite clear I think you just need a little bit more confidence in yourself your instincts are quite good okay thank you yeah what fear would you have there what's your fear of not being recognized as a sensitive human being i mean that i'll just i don't know that people will just you know discard me yeah discard me and continue to hurt me yeah exactly that's right all right good and so i put uh when i resent darlene my biological mother for giving me away um it says the deep belief about who i am i said i am an adorable infant helpless and needy my complete dependence is on you for my safety and i completely need you right now as an infant and your fear my fear is i am not wanted i am helpless and i am alone i am a lone cold and hungry okay all right um pride pride um others should see darlene treating me as her last born baby girl the most beautiful of all the children my my name means light she should hold me up for all to see my infant body all my siblings should bow this is when we're supposed to go here right my siblings are supposed to bow and thank me for being born last my mother holds me close to her close to her and whispers i am her favorite then she feeds me sings a special song that is not sung to others she holds me tight until i fall asleep she says to everyone this is the this one is so special i love her so much nice and you really dug deep into the feelings about that and what's your fear i am replaceable i'm just another child they'll abuse me too all right and ambition i want darlene to hold me breastfeed me cuddle me talk to me show me her strength and the reason for being and that being born a woman is a good thing and my fear is i have no mothering i missed her so much and i my fear is i didn't want anyone to know how much i really missed her security um i need darlene to say she is sorry for being weak and giving me away for being abused and not standing up and to leave me alone my worth is zero just like they said it was I was just too much it's my fault that I was given away personal relations I expect mothers to be there for their daughters, to show female love and strength and guidance. I expect mothers to be strong, ambitious, fearless, and bold in your fear that women are only here to have pain and suffering and female worth will always be in my family of origin will always be struck down and worthless okay all right um sex relations i think a man should always be there to protect and love his wife and children to love his life and hold her in high esteem to nurture his daughters and teach his sons how to love women be respectful and be strong kind faithful honorable and handsome and my fear is my father was none of those things he's a child molester abusive and i can't read the last part mentally something um And I put, a woman should always love her husband, be honorable, integrous, multi-talented, magical strength, ladies and femininity. She shows her daughters the path to self-expression, communication and how to be loved and left back. She is beautiful, soft, rugged and durable. She is a goddess of force to be reckoned with. And my fear is my parents showed me none of those things. And security is, emotional security. Parents should always be, have cared for me and taught me the magic of being loved rich and happy. And I said, my fear's my parents are failures therefore so am I. And one of the areas that you could look at it and I think you did in many of the areas, was your ideal mother and your ideal daughter. I think kind of expressed that as part of some of the other responses that you had. So as you wrote this and as you read it out now, it clearly had even when you're reading it out had some impact on you. Do you wanna talk about the experience that you've had with this looking at this? My experiences, first of all, a set aside prayer is super powerful because I didn't even know that was in there. I had come to terms logically with being given away, but it was like I bypassed being given away to everything else and like I found a way to be in the world and be powerful and feminine. But I never took the time to really grieve that I didn't have my mom. I wasn't expecting that. Yeah, yeah. When did you find out or were made aware that you were adopted? About, I was given away at eight months, I would, to my grandparents. So I knew that I . I didn't live. I see right from the beginning you knew your grandparents were raising you I see I actually got it got it, got it yeah all right so did it tell you anything? Did it help you in determining some of your beliefs? Yes the beliefs I have to tell you I was shocked the whole time I was writing i didn't know what i really believed about my self i i didn t know it was like i didn t know what I didn t no it's like kind of the stuff you've been talking about i just didn t yeah yeah and that's the benefit of doing the work at a different time with a different guide your consciousness is different and at this point you're ready to thaw out at a deeper level to see some of the truth of stuff that's just in there and it's probably got negative vibrations coming out of it even though you're not aware of it like you're experiencing now yeah and yet it kind of feels like i'm under the wave like they always say that underneath resentment or anger is something else right so i feel like that was the wave and i'm like underneath in the water actually coexisting okay with this work if that makes any sense at all it does and there are other names that you could explore and i think you've even mentioned it and that would be the the grief and sadness that comes uh in sort of hand in hand with some of this realization yep yeah yeah and once again then getting to the fourth column sort of brings out the current truth of your reaction to all of this because what you talked about was quite frankly ancient history yeah and not that it doesn't make it relevant but it's just the history which we can't change we have feelings about it but we canít change the history and then the fourth column allows us to make a decision as to so bring it current now and how do I want to live what do I Want My Attitude To Be About It When I resent Alina for accusing me of dumping our father back on her, did it hurt, threaten or interfere with my self-esteem? So the first one is what's my deep belief about who I am and I wrote I'm a better caretaker him than she ever could be i'm a sober professional nurse and a kind and loving woman my fear is that i may have been a little relieved to have him go back to new york and that she's right that i'm not capable and that i don't have what it takes to caretake him 24 7. okay yep there's no right or wrong answer there's just your feelings about it not because you're not clear but to make it i'm reinforcing the clarity that you have to other people on the call because they're listening how you're doing it and measuring how they've done it to try to learn uh more effectively how to unpack it so that those are the comments i'm making go ahead with the okay okay perfect um so my pride how do i want us how do I want other people to see me being treated by my sister they should see Alina treating me as a respectful equal member of the family an experienced nurse in my scrubs my stethoscope and these days in my PPE and get a load of that that. And my fear is that she doesn't respect me, and she may never forgive me. My ambition I want, I want the prestige of having done all the footwork for our father for having shopped for the right independent living for him. After interviewing several of them, I bought all the furniture a piece at a time and secondhand stores fix them up and moved him into his apartment in the independent living so when he arrived it was perfect and then when he decided he didn't want to live there anymore i got him out of the contract moved him into my home took care of him and then when he said he was done with arizona and wanted to go back to new york i helped him pack everything up ship it to new York arranged somebody to meet him at the airport and for his neighbors to get his condo ready that's uh and my fear is that she didn't know any of the work that went into it and quite frankly she doesn't really care there you go yep security what do i need in order to be okay i need my sister to get along with me we're a small family and she's the only sister i have living in the united states and really the only reliable family member um Oh, I don't know what my fear is about that. Well, what comes up? I'm just afraid that we're never going to it's just never going to get fixed. All right. That's a decent answer. Write it down. Okay. My personal relations. How do I expect this relationship to be? i expect her to be cooperative easygoing calm loving a sweet sister fear is i'm not seeing who she really is yeah has she ever been that no it's been a bullying relationship which i never realized until this and my sex what do i expect a man to be reliable calm a good leader and a woman kind soft loving nurturing pocketbook what am i afraid fear in both those cases don't just come with it from your gut right here is that she's the worst of both sexes okay all right no right or wrong answer there's just your spontaneous actually you got very much quickly in touch with it so yeah no this was the captain of the varsity softball team she's tough she's like a you know she'll run you down she's she's a tough tough woman um pocketbook yeah what has how has it affected my value i know my fear but i didn't know what my um nothing should interfere with effect or lessen my well it doesn't affect my value yeah can I just tell my fear is that yeah go ahead with the fear it's that that as our parents get close to death illness caretaking even the wills that this is all going to be a struggle now instead of us just calmly splitting everything and lovingly you can count on it Yeah, yeah. So pocketbook is, and we could put it in a very appreciative way is like everyone should see intuitively my goodness and competency and never criticize me. I like that. that? I'm sure you do. Okay, yeah, no, but so you're very clear. I mean, yeah. So as you wrote it out, and now as you read it out? What was your what is your experience with it? Well, I was I was having that experience. That's why the prayer that I started with changed at the end. And that was where i said help me let go of the sister i wish i had and to accept the one that i do have so that's been my experience that this may never get resolved um and i am completely powerless over her yes and there'll be other comments i'll make when you do the fourth call okay yeah yeah yeah thank you herb because you're right you cannot change her right but you can be the person that you want to be despite her oh i'm going to take you up on that one no but that's the only choice that you have right you could be a hurt self-pitying sister and then it will just aggravate the situation or you could Be a patient and tolerant and loving inclined sister holding up your own standards not to shame her but to perhaps support her okay yeah okay i can't quite picture it with boundaries but i'm gonna trust well but it's not about setting up boundaries to her it's about becoming who you are holding your center of gravity deep inside yourself rather than attaching it to her feelings about you because you're allowing her to name you and an adult names themselves and holds that i'm a nurse i'm competent i'm kind and loving person i'm diligent and i'm effective and if you don't see it that way i'm sorry but it's your problem not mine yeah yeah yeah this is a spiritual awakening that that turnaround is a spiritual awakening and and you see it in the world today especially in the headlines nobody thinks that way everybody blames everybody else instead of taking full responsibility for holding their own integrity right and that goes along with i had that feeling that if she thought i was capable of dumping my dad back on her what could i possibly even answer to that like if that's who somebody thinks that i am that's her problem yeah don't make it your problem right you know the truth now the only thing that i do i listen to other people's feedback to determine if there's something in it that I can learn that I'm not seeing. Because I have, and Crystal mentioned it, I have this awful deficiency in me that I don't see reality as it is. I see reality as I want it to be. And that's delusion. Now, I have invited my two adult daughters to give me feedback, which they're very willing to do. but fortunately they're both 30 years in a program so they are kind about it and circumspect so most of the time yeah yeah yeah i hear you but you're in charge of how you feel about yourself that's huge it's huge yeah yeah somebody said that she said you've got you're a tree with roots you don't get blown you're not a bush that gets blown away by the strong wind that just comes along and yeah thanks herb yeah yeah well and and i often say that life is filled with speed bumps but this work gives me adequate shock absorbers i'm able to go with the flow and more or less make it smooth Because I can adjust to reality as it emerges. Thank you so much. I resent my brother for being withholding, cold, unaffectionate, dishonest, and judgmental. All right. And what's your self-esteem? That I'm a generous and kind and warm person. And your fear is? And my fear is that I'm seen as weak, unworthy, stupid, not enough, and not worth bothering about answering questions or being acknowledged. All right. And your pride? How do you want other people to see him treating you? to see me as caring and loving and um giving to this family that's hurting and my fear is that they will always treat me as insignificant ignoring me and unlovable being unseen all right ambition my ambition is that i want acknowledgement and respect and praise and gratitude and kindness from them for my brother um and my fear is that I am mocked and name called and made fun of and what do you need and why my security i need to be acknowledged that i'm seen and heard and some verbal appreciation did you answer the question why because it validates me okay i get my sense of value from what other people think about me or just know that i'm seeing that you're aware i'm a person okay um and your fear is that i've not wanted i'm invisible and ignored say it again the last one ignored ignored all right and um personal relations i expect family to support each other and be affectionate forgiving and kind and your fear is and my fear is um that i'll be yelled at or criticized sneered at made fun of okay yeah um gender roles i believe that men should be chivalrous that um everybody should be acknowledged men and women not just men and your fear my fin my fear is that men are unreliable and they'll use me in difficulties and then just reject me all right and what about women what's your model i didn't write anything for women say it again i didn t write anything for women well you're on the other half of this equation you're talking about your brother i think as your resentment and you're the sister why didn't you write something about women and or sisters as a model what make it up right now what's your vision of a model sister um she should be first no she should have self-esteem and not reliable not relying on others okay and when you say that what fear comes up that i have no value yeah yeah to others or to yourself probably both yeah that's why i that's my answer the question because that's what i saw yeah you you're very clear all right and what about um pocketbook um nothing should affect my reputation self-esteem and well-being but my fear is that I'll be seen as frail and a problem yeah not wanted and put aside yeah or not seen at all we're not seeing it all well I'm not now so yeah you made both of those points which were interesting right i'll be ignored or i'll just not be seen right yeah and uh when i resent cindy for not being faithful to me yes how long were you married four years all right um what's your self-esteem i am the most kind loving generous husband best lover caring listener good provider of being capable of being intimate great kisser and dancer also handsome well there you go wonderful and your fear is that narc narcissistic oh that's probably a very healthy description of who you are okay my fear is i'm unattractive different unwanted and rejection okay yep that's just a feeling so pride uh others should see cindy treating me as as being fortunate and lucky to have me her arm around me smiling with joy expressing her gratitude about me being the love of her life best friend forever wonderful wonderful and your fear others see the real story that I'm embarrassed lie but they say the lie but I don't people see my unhappiness gossip about me and people won't like me all right all right yeah ambition mm-hmm what do I want to happen I want be loved and have intimacy with my spouse and keep commitment made before God in our vows. Yep, your fear? Rejection, deceit, jealousy is what I wrote. Yeah yeah exactly yep security what do you need and why? I wrote, I need to be loved. Why? Because everybody wants that. Not a good reason. Why do you want it? Not because other people want it. Nope. Okay. What just comes, what bubbles up? What thought comes up? What feeling comes up. Why do You Want To Be Loved? what came up was because i wasn't loved by my parents uh all right to to kind of give some evidence that i'm lovable okay that works good all right um what about personal relations i expect wives should be faithful loving and have open communication Cindy should have seen the love I had for her and valued that some people never or only get it once in a lifetime yeah, yeah, and your fear rejection unfaithful there you go, yeah gender I wrote for men they should be faithful strong, caring, providing defending supporting unconditional loving and confident and your fear not capable of having a relationship and that something is wrong with me all right yep and woman the same really thing okay all right same fear yeah i just um i guess i was focusing on um how a man should be and how a woman should be in if a woman's not that away i would fear yeah that something's wrong with me maybe that works now it works yeah you can be consistent it's fine yeah a pocketbook i wrote down uh emotional security i wrotedown heartbroken yeah yeah and my fear is i get so disturbed out of control i'm oversensitive all right all right yeah yeah it's just a fear it's not a fact there's nothing right or wrong about it it's just what is all right good so as you wrote it out and now as you read it out have you got an experience with any of your beliefs well as i wrote it i just sat with the sadness yeah feeling yeah uh yes grieving it really doesn't make sense but love as blind is what i wrote down and uh um my beliefs is uh i wrote town it was a bad experience for both of us and i believe that a relationship with me during the peak of my addiction is impossible and in my 20s that was the peak for my drug and alcohol addiction okay you'll you'll look at some of that in you in your fourth column you'll look at your own behavior you look at your perception of her behavior and your your underlying motives and that kind of thing okay uh so do you see anything about um a unhealthy belief here in in the work that you've done so far i don't i don' yet see it myself i have some suspicion but go ahead an unhealthy belief i guess what i picture just to answer your question i can put down on paper all these things that i'm a good husband good father good provider child of god a good person but i don't believe that stuff some of it that's probably true especially the lovable part that was part that you did reveal and that i i i'm too hard on myself and uh yeah i'm just feeling sad and kind of going yeah blank or i want to escape i understand and how long ago was the separation we divorced when i was probably 40 years okay so it's it's still a major wound in you i've been married for it'll be 30 years in june yeah and great woman love her dearly and this doesn't make sense but it's me you know no it just it's your history and now you're dealing with it yeah you're thawing out to deal with this that's never really been dealt with effectively no correct but you did reveal something so during that marriage you were drinking oh yeah drinking uh the peak of my 11 year cocaine addiction there you go yeah drug of choice was more yeah yeah yeah yep yeah so so you were a particularly wonderful spouse to be with with all that right well with her for a supplier of her addiction yeah uh okay all right all right yeah and that's not what i had in mind is it i think you were being sarcastic right i think i was so did so you said you had something in mind when you were asking me yeah do you mind sharing that no i don't in fact i i have thought whether to share it or not and i did conclude i would share it and that is you gave me some information that really helped understand the situation when you talked about that you were drinking and now you've just amplified that but I'm also wondering how naive were you at that time yeah my friends knew I had a very good friend that told me not to marry her yeah yeah before there you go it was just yeah uh tunnel vision uh yeah sure i mean at 20 years old or 25 years old absolutely we can't make a mistake and we're gonna go with our feelings and oh yeah absolutely i'm not i'm not judging it i i just it it sort of seeped out of the way you were talking that uh it probably was part on your part was part of a naivete of not seeing who she really was correct yeah yeah all right but more of that will come out in the fourth column sounds good thank you no no wonderful work good i um i resent i'm talking about a priest who was a boss of mine for how he chose to handle my resignation from a parish staff position all right um my self-esteem i'm competent and i'm good at what i do i'm generous and caring and ministered well to the people of that parish i'm a community builder and work proactively to build good rapport and relationships and i am a hard worker excellent nice and a nice bio all right and what yeah no no i mean it um and what's your fear um that i am too much and not enough too much intensity too much expectation of others too demanding um that I have to somehow play small or I overwhelm people and the not enough part is that no amount of hard work collaborative spirit humor, expertise, success was going to please him or get him to like me. The parish and my fellow staff should have seen him praising my exceptional work. We are so lucky of all the parishes she could have chosen to work, she chose us. We have the best music and liturgy in the archdiocese and the best-formed ministers, and our children's choir is beyond compare. I've really gone for it. That's good. This new sanctuary we've built could not have come together without her. She has saved my ass again and again, and we have her to thank for keeping this parish going. Yes. Oh, really? I went for it, exactly. Yeah, exactly, and your fear is? That ultimately I fooled them all, that I work hard to make up for and cover up my deficiencies. And no amount of hard work excellence will ever will make me pleasing and that I ultimately I'm dismissible. Okay. All right. And ambition? um what i want is closure a conversation about what happened i was totally blindsided by him um after what i i didn't know there was a problem he was happy to get rid of me i want an apology and i put in parentheses maybe even reconciliation i have this kind of strange thing of i'd like for us to make up right no that's fine it's just what is it's don't judge it so and don't apologize for it don't filter it it's just what is I would not only like to have him apologize but I would like the in my wildest fantasy is a reconciliation yeah all right what's your fear um that he has absolutely no need or interest um to do that um he was relieved to have me go yeah all right and um security what do you need and why um i need peace and reassurance that i did the best i could in that situation given all the surrounding factors and players and because i want to know that i mattered there and my fear is that I didn't matter and that I was not enough ultimately. Yep, yep, yep. Personal relations? This relationship should have been professional, honest, mutually supportive, transparent, trusting, and pleasant. And my fear is that he had no interest in who I was. I was ultimately a thorn in his side and expendable. Okay, all right. And the gender. I did like the model pastor should be a strong leader, a person of integrity humble caring able to have difficult conversations and still continue the relationship supportive supportive and empowering of his staff. Yeah, you're furious. Can I do the model woman. Oh no do the fear please. The fear, even being all or most of the things that I've said about a model woman, I will never be respected, liked, or appreciated. I see why you wanted to read the other one first now, but go ahead. Like the model woman or the minister in the church should be joyful, well-educated, competent, collegial, empathetic, energetic, funny, flexible, creative, trustworthy, and nice to be around. Yeah, and that's your bio, by the way, right? Yeah. Well, what's your fear? Well, that it's exhausting to try and be all of those things. And I fear that if I'm not that, that I won't be respected. I won'T be appreciated. Oh, so you're not enough unless you are too much. I guess. Yeah. You really hit home, didn't it? Yes. Well, because I can relate to it. My low self-esteem was countered by my arrogance over compensation. Yeah. That really resonated with you. That's great good um so uh where are we here pocketbook pocketbook um nothing should interfere with or lessen my genuine love for the work i do and the people i do it with and your fear no amount of credentials or personality traits will win someone over and if i can't win them over then what yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um okay i'm i'm gonna make a note here or something uh um so how long ago uh was this departure this was actually in the fall of 2017. so it's been a while well three years a long time it's been three years so yeah i understand it okay but i mean it's been a long time if you need work but it's not a long time in terms of history okay yeah so i could see where the thought of apology and reconciliation is still a potential if it had been 20 years ago of course then we're talking about fantasy that's all i was asking about um so as you wrote it out and you're very clear in your approach um and you expanded it uh what's your experience with your belief system here well um i think i i think I believe I have to work really hard to be accepted liked yeah um taken seriously yeah um yeah um and i i realized why i'm i'm often am so exhausted because i'm i feel like i have to work so hard yeah well and i think that's where my comment had really relevance i am not enough therefore I have to be too much. And that's exhausting. Yeah, because you because there's no upper limit to that, because there is no lower limit to the other side of it. But you also made a comment about and you made it several times about him liking you rather than appreciating actually what your competence is and what you do yeah and you made a you made a connection which may or may not be realistic in the situation and that's i'm just raising that up but then you just said something right now and i'm see if it teases out something in you you said i need to be taken seriously why is that because I'm good at what I do I understand that but okay I would have I would said appreciated my confidence mm-hmm maybe that's what you meant by that yeah all right so I'll go back to the question though about your beliefs is there any belief in this reading or this experience that is from your standpoint noteworthy yeah the the place where i started crying and had to take a break was when i was talking the security piece the why and my response was because i want to know that i mattered and so i think there is some belief i don't know exactly how to articulate it but that i will only matter if i do enough yeah i will only matter if i'm seen as competent yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and that makes me tear up right now there you go yeah yeah i have to work really hard to get them to see what i see yeah yeah but underneath what i think i see is i really feel like i'm a fraud so i have to work really hard yeah yeah i don't know i don t want to do therapy here but yeah yeah okay but again hang on and do the fourth column and see what is revealed in that once we get through the instructions on that okay okay thank you thanks what do you what do you do when the people are dead? Does it matter whether they're dead or not? Do you have a resentment? Yes. Oh, so they're being alive or dead is irrelevant. The resentment is alive in you. Right. So did you do a third column? I did a third comment on both of them. But I did, I was able to share one of them with my homework group. That's what I unpacked it with them and i there is one that i haven't unpacked yet so what would you like to do what would like to right now i think i'd like to do the one that I haven't I haven t unpacked all right and my set aside prayers spirit help me to come to this work with beginner's mind and let me be open to the insight and knowledge you send me. Nice. When I resent my mom for not protecting me from my dad's abuse, did it hurt, threatened or interfered with my knowing that I'm a precious and vulnerable child who deserves protection? And your fear is? my fear is that i am a bad seed a wicked and mouthy child who is bad and rude and deserving of punishment yeah yeah and um your uh pride right um i'd like to see my family i'd love to see my dad actually especially my dad seeing my mom treating me as someone worthy of protection from abuse someone who loves me unconditionally yes all right and your fear my fear is she'll be too afraid of my dad to protect me okay ambition i want my mom to stand up to my dad when he's raging and abusing me Yeah. And your fear? My fear is that she won't because I'm not worth her standing up to him. She'll choose herself. Yeah. Security? I need to know I am in need, I need her to know I am a need of love and protection because I am her precious child. and your fear is oh um do you want why sure so i can be safe and know i'm worthy of love and protection yeah and my fear is i'm not worth worth protection and love because i'm bad um personal relations i i expect mothers to accept love and protect their children unconditionally right and my fear is that mothers won't protect a child that fights back because she gets what she deserves got it um a real model man should should always be gentle and kind strong in convictions and always growing spiritually and my fear is i'm afraid of men's ability to explode in anger and violence at any time A real model woman should always be loving, fights for what's right and protective of those less fortunate and vulnerable. And my fear is that I'm on my own. No one is on my side and no one can protect me. And pocketbook, emotional security, material security and my feelings of self worth. And my fear is, I feel I'll always end up alone. Because I'm not worthy of kindness and love. I feel that I am an unlovable person. Yeah. And so as you wrote it out, and now as you read it out again, I'm confirming you're very clear in the way you approached it. What's your experience with your beliefs? I just feel like the whole time I was reading it, and when I was writing it too, like I'm on the verge of tears. But that the tears aren't coming. Stephen Winick Yeah. Anne McLean But I also, my belief, I think is that I am somehow so flawed. I think what this is giving me is that there's a really deep belief in me that I am so flawed, that I'm unlovable and that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You talked about the bad seed. And. There was a movie when I was little. Yes. Called The Bad Seed. She was a little girl. Yeah. But it was a recurring theme throughout that in fact you deserved the punishment because you weren't worthwhile and and so i i just have to ask the question because i'm curious what is your what are you conscious of as to when this took place all of this physical emotional abuse in terms of time frame how old were you i remember from the time i was little having these explosions and then yeah the last one was when i was already grown up yeah so it was your lifetime experience yes yeah yeah yeah that's that's that was my intuition on it that it was yeah the way you've been formed and deformed in your family of origin and and so the belief that you have that you just articulated is it is it appropriate is it healthy i think it's appropriate but i don't think it said no no it's not no wait wait wait i i don t i don' t think you're under 21. no i think the last time it happened was when i was in my 20s well you're not hearing me okay you are sitting here looking at me and i know you're not 21 years old right you're you're somewhat beyond 21 years yeah a lot i'm being 15 years delicate right right right so uh so your parents are no longer relevant any longer but your feelings about and reaction to that time period is very relevant but it's not them doing it to you now it's you do no yeah i know that so it's appropriate oh feeling i see what you're saying yeah i can explain it we can analyze it and understand where it came from but for you to hold it at this point is not appropriate it's not healthy that's what i meant by that yeah yeah yeah and and i believe the fourth column my experience brings a around the corner so that we're then willing to release it i'm doing this with my hands because when i looked up the definition of forgiveness in the dictionary it said a decision to release them a decision to release and when i release them i am released and my experience with the fourth column was the beginning of the forgiveness process but it didn't finish until i finished the ninth step so you're you're in play right now that's why and i'm doing i'm using this moment as a teaching moment not just for you but for everybody on the line that can relate to you because there's many people that had very almost parallel experiences they could they could you know take your story and own it themselves all right yep any other comments well it's weird because the other person that i i did the third column on is is somewhat later in my in my 30s i got involved with an abusive man of course you did and and I yes exactly but it's so weird because and I after I got out of that situation I was I went right to therapy yeah and she pointed out that they had the same name my father and this man well born in the same year oh yeah it's pretty crazy yeah well yeah pretty crazy in the sense that uh pretty unhealthy but totally totally predictable right because she said i i think i would she thought that maybe i was trying to go back and change it you know maybe yep yep we try to repair the damage of childhood with the fantasy that we can have a better childhood it's a fantasy right we will never have a Better Childhood yeah yeah but but we don't know that until we know that my resentment is towards my dad and the resentment is for hitting me with a board when I was four years old yeah uh and there were many other abuse cases too around that same time Your self-esteem. My self-esteem is I'm a beautiful, valuable, cherished, precious human being that had a right to be, that has a right to be here. And your fear. And this is really hard. Yeah. I don't, I don' believe that I'm enough. Yeah. Yep. Yep. some of this work is really hard yeah yeah it's been kind of coming up since we started this session today so i mean it yeah yep and you're right um i want others to see my dad as treating me as a as as a princess um that is smart beautiful cherished and a loving daughter yeah and fear and my fear is that i'm not valuable yep my ambition is that I want him to apologize and my fears that it would never have happened uh he died when I was a teenager right yeah uh security is I I what I need is to forgive him and why is because uh he didn't know any better that's what i believe i doesn't matter and i want to be free okay good and um what i believe is um with god's help i have no fear about this i don't have any fear that i'll be able to forgive them all right especially with that wonderful prayer you wrote um and the personal relations how do what do i expect i expect fathers to treat their little girls with love and respect and to be a good role model um and what do I fear that I'm that I m not lovable that I am unlovable and the gender relations um a real man should control his temper with regards to dealing with disciplining their children and be a good role model and provide unconditional love and my fear is it wouldn't have happened and i'm afraid of men that raise their voice or rage yep um and real um a model woman uh should control their temper it's the same thing basically and um and i fear that it wouldn't happen as well but i don't have any fear of of of women raging or raising their voice it just i've not experienced that yeah uh and pocketbook is um No one. Let's see, I'm trying to read my writing no one should affect my emotional well being. And I wrote, I felt abandoned. I don't trust people, and I don' feel safe in the world. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. all right now as you wrote it out and as you've read it out it began to open you up some what's your experience with the beliefs that were revealed um a lot more painful than i realized did you see any beliefs there that need to be examined um i i didn't so i'm just asking you what did you see um yeah i think i need to probably be a little bit more open-minded when it comes to my beliefs about man uh okay all right so it could yeah thank you that's a good insight that some of your beliefs about men were corrupted by your relationship your poor relationship with your father and that's too too broad a brush right yeah exactly yeah so just be open to it as you are and especially as you do that fourth column i think a lot of things begin to come together as a full clean picture yeah all right thank you you bet my resentment to my brother dan for not doing his share to help out our parents when they were sick yeah and that was over a period of four years like whenever something came up he was not couldn't be relied on did not feel obliged sure nothing sure so all of mine were around that all right and who are you self-esteem um self-esteem so how it affected my self- esteem so i'm valuable as is my time my brother's actions show that he thinks only his own time and resources are important okay so wait wait wait it's not about your brother all of those comments in the self-esteem are irrelevant try to avoid that yeah because i was thinking so one of the things is different about your format that throws me off a little bit is um because there's that underneath where i'm saying when i resent my brother dan for not doing his share did it hurt threaten or interfere with my self-esteem yeah because so that sort of says it's not just me talking about my self esteem but he affected my self Esteem yes and And that's how I'm used to doing the four-step as well. Okay, so I hope you're adopting the set-aside attitude in prayer, and I never want to hear you say, I used to do this. Oh, no, this is how I understand the four step process, is I'm looking at how his behavior. But wait, wait, we're done with his behavior, we're down with his behaviour. Now we're talking about your reaction, and we're trying to figure out your belief about who you are so without referencing your brother at all in this answer to the question self-esteem can you just answer the question from your writing what you wrote answer the questions fill in the blanks i am okay so i'm valuable as is my time uh i'm a good daughter i am a good sister um All right. And what's your fear? Fear is that my time and resources are not valued, that I'm not valued nor my considerations. All right, all right, yep. My family or others. Yeah, very clear. All right and in pride would you write? um you're on the stage brother how do you want your family to see your brother treating you so others should see um we get it all of us getting along as siblings and my brother treating me and our parents with respect sharing our parents elder year concerns yeah okay so that didn't tell me much about you there you you feel that you're worthy of respect that's one thing i got out of that so could you amplify a little bit sure so i feel i also as far as I believe that so in terms of how other people are seeing me treated it's not how they're seeing you, it's how do you want them in the ideal world, you're on a stage with your brother you're discussing his responsibilities to take care of and share the burden how would you like the audience to see him treating you in the ideal world your brother should be looking at you as and the audience should see this respect and fill in the blank what else i'm just courtesy and consideration i think consideration for okay so i'm worthy of his obligations of his courtesy okay you're being pretty timid and pretty tame with regard to this i mean it's okay it's just um i've asked people to stretch it in other words i think you probably have a fairly good and solid and high opinion of yourself but it's not evident in the words that you're using it's evident in your tone and your facial expressions okay but we're not evident yeah i just don't want to do too much dialoguing and get sort of my hand slapped sorry Oh, so you were afraid of me. Yes. Sometimes I'm uncomfortable by the dialogue you have with people. I'm just going to be honest. No, of course. I cannot share. I wrote a bunch of stuff, but a lot of it is sort of how I feel he affected me. Yeah, no, you're very good at taking his inventory. Well, I think for me when I was looking at it from, a lot my writing was how he affected like, So when I look at how he affected his behavior, this is just to kind of give you a sense of where I was coming from when I did my writing. How it affected my self-esteem and pride is that I felt that I had to take a disproportionate amount of sort of suffering based on his not stepping up. Because. You're swimming in a pool of self-pity. Well no, I'm just saying so what I'm telling you is I have certain values, right? No, I haven't heard any of those yet. who are you tell me about your self-esteem and your values that's good so my self-esteem and values come from acting in a certain way with others so i that's how i was taught i was taught you take care of your family you take care of your parents you honor your mother and father you show respect you treat people a certain way and that's that's core to how i operate in the world i am a sister and a daughter of high virtue high standards high principles i am the absolute mega daughter everybody would want a daughter like me well said now we're connecting it's nice to see you smile thank you oh yes yeah yeah there we go now we are getting down to this right yes and this twerp of a brother of mine is not appreciating the standards that he needs to live up to because they're my standards yes perfect that's very true that's exactly what i think let's go on with ambition then thanks i'm glad we cracked that one open so what do i want i want him to step up and offer the help when our parent needs help yeah yeah and his and and your fear is well so i also was saying as far as my wants um i want um so i i also don't want to have to i didn't want have to take all of the you know the time from work um the expenses because i'm i'm out of state you know these things are flights away which could hurt my career in my pocketbook so that's kind of how i looked at like my ambition having to meet this standard or these values affects my career in my life and Mike personal concerns yeah the genuine observations absolutely yep certainly my fear was around that you know my parents or family would be let down if they don't get this care or put in a bad situation therefore i have to step up right so so i have to step is my value because if somebody has to do this thing and to these standards if he doesn't i have two and the fear is just that if i did not then they would be hurt or maimed or they wouldn't get what they needed they would be sort of right yeah yeah and also about security what do you need and why i need to be loved i need others to believe i am loyal faithful you know a good daughter um i need other people to share my suffering with me to care about me um and it's also important to me that they feel that i'm like it's always been important i've definitely was what the good girl type and i wanted my parents to love me and and acknowledge and feel that i was a good daughter and i was fulfilling my role as a good daughter yeah um and then i do have a problem with getting my value from validation from others yeah it's a human thing don't don't to anybody take that overly personal it's a very human dynamic and we just need to manage it that's all yeah yeah and your fear So a lot of my fear just had to do with being judged for not making sure my mom was okay or my dad was okay. Also, a lot my fear was around having to go through this painful process of helping my dad when he died and have to do it without help. And I wrapped it all up and I was in...my dad was sick over the course of years and I went into just an ugly relapse and the whole time i was caregiving while he was dying and trying to i don't have any health care experience and home hostage hospice was rather traumatic for me yeah it was just an ugly relapse and every time i got a break from the house i would go binge and um sure and it just was a lot of just fear that i was not going to be okay at the end of this yeah um my marriage lose my life um your career your time yeah wow overwhelming actually yeah yep what about uh gender the way that translated for me at first i thought well that doesn't really apply here but in a sense then i realized gender in the sense of sons and daughters sons daughters brothers and sisters or brothers and sisters are equally responsible for the care of their parents and that sons and daughters should both try to help their aging parents yeah yeah um and that suns aren't more important than daughters and one of my you know things that gets wrapped up without getting into the dialogue in your story too much was that when my older brother was killed and i was the one who was there to witness it one of the things my dad said in his drunkenness was you know dan is the only son i have left and he made much of that and so i think my brother and to me we all internalize that differently so my belief is that's not true that his he's not more valuable in the family just because he shares the last name or what have you yeah part of that culture yeah yeah i reject that definitely a cultural potentially a cultural thing and your fear around that fear well sort of this there's that fear one of the things one of the fears is about my generally my relationship with my brother is that's the connection with my niece and nephew and i feel also as a good aunt right that's also one of my roles i feel obligated to be a good on and to have a relationship with them and to treat them equally to my other nieces and nephews yeah he is that connection to them and my fear is that if we're i'm estranged from him that my niece and nephew won't get what they need and i won't be able to live up to that standard that how i treat the other kids and fairness is really important to me of how they're treated yes yes another just side note is my dad part of this unhealthy codependent thing he asked me on his deathbed if i could make sure my niece is okay my brother's daughter she took a pulse of overeater so yeah he kind of dumped that on me at the 11th hour yeah so that was also in my mind yeah yeah i don't expect to be able to make her okay but i can certainly try to have a relationship with her which could be blocked by this relationship oh let's just reframe the vocabulary he expressed the dying wish he didn't dump anything on you you could you could receive it as a recipient from a dumpster that's your choice but he just expressed the dying wish now my sense is that you would be a responsible aunt anyway and you would want to help out where you can especially given that you have some tools for a solution in a particular area of difficulty yeah he did say it as a command but um just so wait wait wait there's where your belief is you you need to really look at that oh he's just a man yes he's your father yes you loved him yes you respect him yes you honor him absolutely but he's not your god and you're an adult woman now he's not your parent even in that sense so you hear him and then you process and accept what it is you want from that information there's nothing gospel about that yeah Well, at least from my standpoint I'm just challenging your sort of automatic need to obey. Yes sir. My other fears that I came up. They just kind of came up later was that, and it kind of goes into gender is it. I have two sons I don't have any daughters. One of my fears with my sons would be like my brother. well uh did we do pocketbook i'm not sure pocketbook not yet um so what is my affected values for money nothing should interfere with effect or lesson so with regard to the financials i kind of wrote this as i had to consistently pay a lot of money to travel back and forth from massachusetts maryland south carolina to help my dad when he had his stroke cancer treatments hospice so that was how it affected my family's finances is that they spent a lot of money and took a lot of time off from work yeah so that certainly affected my family's potential finances yeah very tough times yep and your fear fear that um what a fear that it would be rejected by my husband he was very supportive but just fear that you know either i could lose my job for being away so long would lose money wouldn't have enough money to pay for like my son's college my son was going to college yeah it's a lot of financial fear of not having enough um so as you wrote it out and as we now have dialogued about it quite frankly i hope you enjoyed it i did but you so what was your what is your experience now with you this situation and your beliefs well i certainly know we're not getting to that column yet but i can certainly see that what i bring to it is i have expectations on him not just on myself so i have high expectations of myself yeah and i expect others to follow the certain standard that's the worm in the wood right there yep yeah yeah and um it you know you can believe and think anything you want but is it practical and is it realistic not it is absolutely not and so i'm i'm very practical i try to see reality as it is and i i adjust me to reality i don't mean compromise i don t mean that i meant i just adjust to reality if the wall is eight feet high i know i'm not going to be able to jump over it so i stop running at it and i need to find another way maybe build a ladder or maybe go around the side or maybe get a pole vault whatever but i m not going to run directly into and through the wall so if my brother is like that and he probably had a consistent pattern in his adult behavior this way he's not going to change based on circumstances now you you you're correct in hoping but again you each of us needs to be realistic people don't change unless they personally have enough pain and they're motivated to do the work that we're doing and then and you can see the pain people you know have expressed it and and and then over time as we apply these instructions and these assignments in this methodology we change we are changed you're you're smiling because of something what happened No, I'm just thinking about the conversation we've had so far. Yeah? Yeah. You want to share anything about that? No, just that I was very straightforward in my fear about being the person in the spotlight. Oh yeah, no, I love straightforward. I love confrontation. I love dialogue that's strong like that. That's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I embarrass myself later. That's what the laughing is. Oh well. no i don't think you embarrass yourself at all from my standpoint and i hope it was uh helpful oh he was yeah all right wonderful when i resent the catholic church for making me feel dirty and separate from my body what is my deep belief about who i am i am created in the image and likeness of god i am a goddess and my innate goodness and beauty are beyond compare what is my fear i am dirty i am nothing i am a sinner how do i want other people to see uh the church treating me the catholic church should um preach from the pulpit uh talk about the beauty of my humanity all of my beauty mind body and soul it should bow down and apologize to me for its many years of squelching me um and its distorted thinking and voyeurism into my bedroom um what is my fear yeah i will uh never be accepted and i will always be an outcast okay let's do some work here this is a really important one it's a sacred one for you and many people and um i would like to do a little bit of work with self-esteem and pride so but What would be your dream relationship in terms of the church treating you? How would you like the world, your parents, your family, your parish, your people in the congregation seeing the church on the stage treating you because of what they see in you? and you made the point already that you're just one of the human race and so your hope would be that they would treat all people this way so I'm not singling you out to make you quote that special unique person but I'm trying to get a sense of who do you believe you are as a human being in the presence of the church can you make words up or look at what you wrote and and try to weave a tapestry hero based on i am um i am beautiful my soul and body and mind are beautiful all right so now read what you wrote in both self-esteem and pride again okay all right, so in self-esteem I wrote I am created in the image and likeness of God i am a goddess and my innate goodness and beauty are beyond compare okay that's actually quite good yeah all right and so do the pride thing so the pride wa that i wrote was the catholic church or the church should preach or speak don't do the preach part that just got in the way of my uh of my sense of you having a sense of belief you don't talk about what they should be doing but talk about um i what they're seeing when they're seeing you um when the church okay looks at me they should see all of me my mind my body my soul um my humanity um the beauty of my sexuality the beauty of my being and that that none of that is separate that it is all sacred and holy knowing and respecting my full humanity yes yeah that that that's what i felt was kind of missing as you repeated the self-esteem though i hadn't heard it as deeply as when you read it out the second time so that really that let's move on to ambition um What do I want? I want an apology from the church for its backwards thinking and the deep pain that its teachings have created within me, and a change in the dogma and the way it approaches human sexuality. Yeah, yeah. And your fear is? I'll always be stuck and boxed in and shackled by its teachings, and I'll never be free. Yeah, yep, yep. Security. What do I need and why? I need to feel loved and accepted by my church. Because that love and acceptance makes me feel safe. Yeah, yeah. I need to feel safe in my church. It's a sanctuary. I want a sanctuary of safety. Yeah, that's very cool. All right. And your fear is I will never be accepted by my church the way that i am i will never feel accepted and loved by my church yeah yeah uh personal relations i expect the church to see me the whole of me in my sacred beauty yeah and i will ever be totally accepted and i always feel less than yeah gender um a healthy church should always embrace its well it's is it about me or can this be general i wrote a healthy Church should always embrace the members of its congregation as they are and not as the church wants to mold them yeah yeah yeah and a member of the congregation should always be true to who they are and be an active participant and conger could contribute to the well-being of its church yeah and your fear is um i'll always be stuck in a dead church and my voice will never be heard yeah yeah um was there any uh gender exploration there in terms of males in the church or females in the church um i think i did have that early on because there's a little side note in on one of my sheets about patriarchy yeah yeah yeah i suspected so i mean that would just go hand in love with it wouldn't it yeah right pocketbook um pocket book was um nothing should interfere um with effect or lessen my beautiful spirit and your fear is i'll always be less than and i'll always be dirty as long as i'm connected to the church yes yeah yeah okay so um what was your experience in writing it out because clearly you've written more than even you've read there you told me about some notes and now in verbalizing it what's your experience about your beliefs so it's been a long time coming and i think probably they were on my sheet two years ago when i went through your program but what is happening to me is a law of freedom already. There's still a little fear there of all these teachings, but I'm pushing out against that, the smallness of it. I'm not there yet, but I I'm starting to, I guess have find my voice and feeling and claiming that. I don't know whether that makes any sense. Makes total sense and I want to ask a couple more questions though. When you reference, when you refer to smallness what is it that you're seeing or attempting to explain? So for so many years this idea right it floating around in my mind about this power and control and this fear that i was created for so much more than that right this this it's like almost as constricting that now as i'm growing this religion is constricting me and it's not allowing me to be who i believe the divine has created me to be to it doesn't fit so whose smallness were you referring to i played small yes i played small and the church is playing small yes yeah yeah no i i i love the way you but i didn't know what you meant by it but now you're unpacking it so that's great um not here to solve problems in the sense that you've made them clear here, but are you familiar with Richard Rohr, R-O-H-R, as a Franciscan priest? All right. He has the most healthy approach, understanding and manifestation of the Catholic Church that I've ever encountered. Now, some people don't like his liberal orientation uh i'm i'm not a liberal in the sense of the current jargon but i'm a liberal in a sense of a richard rohr this broad not small at all but universal all right embracing of human our humanity and so i don't normally bring in a solution like that but for you my i think that to become more familiar with his teaching would be very helpful to you as your honoring your image and likeness thank you herb yeah i'm very familiar with richard roar but and um cynthia bourgeot and all of them so i don't you know and i'm trying to be gentle with myself and not i'm here you know saying why did i wait so long it's this is just the way it has unfolded and um that's where i'm gonna be yeah yeah and that's just part of the process also of our looking back over our shoulder judging ourselves with a little bit of regret and then moving on because it's not healthy it's not productive yeah yeah all right thanks very much when i resent my fiance david for his cigar smoking so uh what's your self-esteem a woman wants i am a woman who wants to lead a healthy lifestyle without having to deal with the smell of a cigars of a cigar the smoke okay that sounds a little bit more like ambition to me so get underneath that and tell me who you are as a person what did you write in pride others should see david treating me with respect about the smell all right so um it's a bit timid and mild um what you have a belief is that you're a respectable healthy woman right yes but put yourself on the stage with david and kind of look inside of yourself what what is the actual ingredients that you see that you are holding you believe this is who i am and you know and you really wish that he would intuitively see this with his x-ray vision he says he does see it well don't don't tell me what he says because that's the question answer my question and um that people need to change to suit me is that what you said yeah to be with me yes yeah okay yeah and so i'm not saying it's right or wrong but i'm saying that is the key belief that you surfaced in this conversation as i see it my resentment is a is my reaction to something that was done to my children not to me directly but you have a resentment but i have the resentment so it's your resentment okay the resentment is i resent ray my father-in-law for not treating all his grandchildren equally in his will they were too yes it's fine i get it no we don't need the details so what's your self-esteem self-esteem i am a loving open-hearted giving supportive uh person intelligent educated fun loving deserving respect and love i am the best most caring thoughtful inclusive daughter-in-law ray will ever have and i've embraced my stepson and daughter wholeheartedly making a serene and secure and loving place for them in our blended family and your fear is that deep down ray thought of me and my children as the second string as not as important all right okay so these are your grandchildren by birth and his by acquisition uh yes that's right no i just wanted to be clear all right though pride okay my pride others should see ray embracing me and my children uh with a loving heart and openness valuing me and them for the fabulous people we are and the vitality and richness we add to his family for loving his son making a secure loving home for the david's children we are the frosting on the cake in their family all right and your fear is that ray never valued um never valued us we were only tolerated all right yep ambition okay my ambition i want ray to love and value me and my children as he does all others in his family i want rey to treat my children equally in all ways as he does his blood grandchildren whatever you call there's no good words no no that that's descriptive that's good communication what's your uh fear my fear is that his acceptance was not total was not real was not genuine all right absolutely and security what do you need and why okay i need ray to treat my children equally yeah and why um because when he didn't he created the vision that none of us thought was there he hurt one of them very very deeply and nobody well well okay all right so why is so that people don't get hurt okay yes mm-hmm all right in your fear my fear is that neither me or my children will ever be seen as good enough all right yep um personal relations okay and then i did father-in-laws and daughter-in laws wait wait personal relations um oh person shoot i skipped five i don't know how i forget it let's do gender then that's fine okay so um gender an ideal father-and-law should be welcoming fair considerate open-minded respectful and genuinely loving of his new related new relatives that come into the family by marriage um and then i had in parentheses if they can't they shouldn't pretend to be part and be polite and only let their true feelings show in their will yeah and your fear uh my fear is that we didn't make the grade we're never going to be good enough fear yep good all right and what other gender did you have in there daughter-in-law myself by second marriage should be um should should daughter-on-law should be open-minded welcoming respectful and loving to members of the family in which they're marrying and they should be realistic about the second daughter-and-laws my second marriage would be realistic about their place in the family into which they are marrying and your fear is yeah that i thought we had made the grade but i missed the message all right and um pocketbook okay a pocketbook nothing and nobody should interfere with any of my children's or my emotional well-being yeah here and your sphere again that um we're just never going to measure up we never did and we won't all right all right now um the same question i ask everybody but i try to give it a little bit of a different flavor each time to make it innovative and so you wrote it out you've got a lot of energy about it because you used a lot words about it you said you talked to a lot of people about it and now you wrote it out and you've read it out to me and we've had some dialogue can you give me a sense of your experience with what it is you believe the thing that came up to me came up up to me when i was finished writing this yesterday um i just started crying and i and i i came down with nobody should hurt my children yes nobody i don't care how old they are yes and life should be fair yeah life yeah underneath everything that you said and in most of it you used in in the pride in the gender in many of the other you use the word should yeah okay and that reveals your belief okay that believes your script yeah that reveals story about reality yep now i'm just pointing that out at this point for you and to just hold it and look at is this belief realistic is this believe healthy It's not about right or wrong. It's just like, does it work in life? You know, and we're not at the fourth column yet. And the fourth volume will pull the curtain back on the motives. But right now I'm trying to pull the curtains back on the beliefs. Yeah. Yep. What's your response to my comments right now? Your shoulds. your beliefs, your relationship with reality. That I'm out of touch with reality? Thank you. Exactly. It's not that you're wrong. Wouldn't it be wonderful if life were fair? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. All right. Thanks so much. Thank you, Herman. appreciate it yeah yeah well and the fourth column brings it home and so we'll do that work when you've done that work okay yeah um thank you everybody uh for being here and being so generous with your time and your uh lives very courageous very vulnerable and that's the kind of work that we do here And the group allows and fosters because, as you can see, we trust one another. Thanks so much. Join me in the serenity prayer, please. God, grant me the serENITY to accept the things I cannot change. Courage to change the things that I can. And wisdom to know the difference.