Self-Support and Non-Professionalism – 12 Traditions Workshop – Part 3 of 8 – Howard P.

With our seventh tradition, we decided we would be solely self-supporting, but we would indeed support ourselves. We have to support ourselves, or we will sink because we cannot and will not accept any outside contribution. and then the question comes up what happened to the $87,000 that very question came up at that central service committee meeting and that very person who I was convinced would not know what the proper response would be said to the representative of the court when the representative said well what are we going to do with the $87,000 the committee member responded well there's another tradition we have which says we have no interest in outside issues and what you do with $87 thousand dollars is none of our business we don't care what you do with it and we're not going to get involved in it then I don't know what happened to the $87,000 for any of you that may be interested but having decided having decided that we're going to support ourselves with money and that we are not going to take outside contributions to support ourselves, but we're going to have money. What are we going to spend the money for? What are you going to allow ourselves to buy? Tradition 8 answers that question in part. Alcoholics Anonymous shall remain forever non-professional. We define professionalism as the occupation of counseling alcoholics for fee or hire, but we may employ alcoholics where they are going to perform these services for which we might otherwise have to engage non-alcoholics. Such special services may be well recompensed, but our usual AA 12 step work is never to be paid for. And I think that is a pretty clear statement on what we mean by AA as such will never be professional. As anyone who is on a 12-step call of any kind, as a member of Alcoholics Anonymous cannot accept any money for that call. That is always for free. An issue that frequently comes up and has for a long, long, longtime is how about the AA member who works for this hospital program or works for their recovery home or works for this other program, and they are in essence doing recovery work. Are they violating AA tradition. I think the tradition is clear, it is for me, but of course you see I know I'm right because this is what I believe. I know the pitfalls of that too. But if I'm working for huge helicopters and I'm doing anything that management tells me to do that they're going to pay me for, then that has nothing whatsoever to do with Alcoholics Anonymous. I don't care if they're telling me you go out and 12-step, you go up to that employee and you get him sober. Okay? If I'm for hire to them and they're going to pay me to do that. They're not paying me as an AA member, they're paying me as a huge helicopter employee. And I am not violating any AA tradition because what I'm doing has nothing whatsoever to do with AA from my point of view. On the other hand, if I am an AA member within the practice of the AA principles and somebody asks for help or I try to help somebody as an AA members then I must not ever accept any kind of remuneration for that. It seems clear to me, although it's not that clear because there are still frequently questions about that. Another issue involved in the Eighth Tradition is such spatial services may be well-recompensed. That implies to me that traditionally AA will always look on paying its service workers essentially the same kind of money that they would make doing the same job elsewhere. that we will pay them some kind of competitive price well recompense that's what that means to me and I don't think we as individuals or our committee look hard enough at that because I I don't think that most of our employees, not just here in the Valley or here in Los Angeles or here Southern California where I think we're a little better, but the places I've been to throughout the country, we don't pay the people very much money. We pay them the least we can pay and get away with. I also point out that in the Tradition it says we may. It doesn't say we have to. But we should read the Traditions not to circumvent them, but to comply with them. So our eighth Tradition, Alcoholics Anonymous should remain forever non-professional, but our service centers may employ special workers. So now we have decided within our tradition that we're going to have spatial workers and they're somehow going to be working in offices and committees, the question comes up how much authority are they going to have in controlling Alcoholics Anonymous meetings and groups, etc. Tradition 9 says, long form, each AA group needs the least possible organization. Rotating leadership is the best. The small group may elect its secretary, the large group its rotating committee and the groups of a large metropolitan area their central or intergroup committee, which often employs a full-time secretary. The trustees of the General Service Board are, in effect, our AA General Service Committee. They are the custodians of our AA tradition and the receivers of voluntary AA contributions by which we maintain our AA general service office at New York. They are authorized by the groups to handle our overall public relations, and they guarantee the integrity of our principal newspaper, the AA Grapevine. All such representatives are to be guided in the spirit of service, for true leaders in AA are but trusted and experienced servants of the whole. They derive no real authority from their titles. They do not govern. Universal respect is the key to their usefulness. One of the characteristics that seems to be consistent through all these traditions so far is that somehow if I keep the traditions in mind, I will expect myself to subordinate my individual ego to the group purpose, to the common welfare. I will need to not have to drive everything so that it turns out my way. In preparing this talk, somebody had at one of the meetings said something about view graphs. There was something came up and they said well you could do that with a view graph. I never considered really using view graphs, but if I would have, one of the things that I would make a view graph of would be an organization chart on Alcoholics Anonymous. If, I think, we were to prepare an organization chart of Alcoholics Anonymous using conventional thinking and the conventional approach. Now, you guys will have to help me here. Here I have a view graph right here. You see this view graph right there? On this viewgraph at the top of it, there's a little block and in that block it says the Board of Trustees. Traditionally they would be in charge and the decisions they make would then flow down to the boxes organized beneath it of the World Service Office. They would do, what was passed down from the Board of Trustees. Then we would have the general service offices and the district, the general service district. Then we would probably have the central offices broke down from that. And then underneath that level of organization, you would have the groups. And there would be these decisions made with policy and direction and they would be passed down through these different organizations and given to the groups for the groups to do. If we follow the conventional logic of organization that is an organization. Now in Alcoholics Anonymous we have in essence done exactly that, but then we have taken the organization chart and turned it exactly upside down so that all authority exists within the groups and the groups ask for service for those organizations that are beneath it it gives them the information and the resources and the guidance to serve them the way they want served. And each group is autonomous. Each group represents itself, except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole. The least possible real organization will work in Alcoholics Anonymous that organization that structure that requires more organization will work less so AA as such ought never be organized but we may create service boards or committees directly responsible to those they serve. Ten, long form. No AA group or member should ever, in such a way as to implicate AA, express any opinion on outside controversial issues, particularly those of politics, alcohol reform, or sectarian religion. The Alcoholics Anonymous group opposes no one. Concerning such matters, they can express no views whatever. Some of us who were here then years ago, there was a detailed study made by some of the best minds one of the country's greatest think tanks and this study revealed that alcoholics can be taught to control and enjoy their drinking and they publish this report now this is not a funky outfit this is a credible institution and they had made their study and they released this information and of course the press releases with it and the reporters came to Alcoholics Anonymous and said what is your opinion? What do you think about this? A official public information response was Alcoholics Anonymous has not read that has no interest in it and has no opinion on that we did not express any point of view on this so that we stayed out of the controversy we let the thing just go on as it would And probably, you know, the only people that I'm sure of that got drunk from having this report published were the people who were in the experiment. The AA people, I didn't run into any newcomer or old timer who thought, well, I think I'll try it because they put out that report. Now, everybody knew that that might be true for somebody, but it wasn't true for them. But it, of course, was true for those that were in the test. Years later, when they republished that report and said that a follow-up on all of those people that were inside the test showed that they all went back to alcoholic drinking and destroyed their lives in the process, said that their primary source for the initial information was the guys that were drinking themselves. You know, the worst person to go to is an ass. I mean, go to the guy's wife, for Christ's sake, but don't go to him. Don't go there. Don't talk to this guy because he knows that this time it's going to be different, you know? Anyway, I was proud of AA then, and I'm proud of AAA now because that was the tradition and that's what AA adhered to, and it worked. We did not get involved in the controversy. If we get involved with controversy, then all it can do is hurt us. We cannot benefit in any way from participating in public controversy. And recently, another unnamed group was formed. and the guy that formed this new organization put out press releases and wrote a new book and was trying to get his program going and in doing that he was sharply critical of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous and he was particularly critical of the religious feature of the program and in his press releases was very candid about his group's opinion of AA the newspaper reporter that was preparing the article came to Alcoholics Anonymous and asked for our opinion and once more, we had no opinion. We knew nothing about this and we have no opinion on it. We wish everybody well. We don't criticize anyone. That was how we responded. the head of an outside recovery program who uses the AA who in essence emphasizes the principles of AA and our spiritual recovery in their program. This outside agency, this person happens to be an AA member and the press contacted this outside organization and this guy responded with his point of view which was sharply critical of this new group that was performed. Well let me tell you the way it read when it was written in the newspaper was AA response. It was not this other institution's response. It read clearly that, and it indicated we had some kind of a controversy when we had no controversy at all. I'm not criticizing anybody, I'm just pointing it out. And I will also point out that the tradition says no AA group or member, no AA group or AA member should ever in such a way as to implicate AA express any opinion on outside controversial issues. So that tradition doesn't just impose a requirement on the groups, but it imposes a responsibility on the individual who is a member of AA not to voice an opinion that would imply AA involvement in a controversy. A person is free to express their opinion any way they want to in the United States, but if you're an AA member you are expected not to express your opinion in such a way so that it could be implied that AA is somehow involved because AA is not don't need to grind any accents that okay tradition 10 alcoholics anonymous had no opinion on outside issues here's the AA name never be drawn in the public controversy 11 our relations with the general public should be characterized by personal anonymity we think a a ought to avoid sensational advertising our names and pictures as a eight members ought not be broadcast, filmed, or publicly printed. Our public relations should be guided by the principle of attraction rather than promotion. There is never need to praise ourselves. We feel it better to let our friends recommend us. I am a retired manager of the Systems Engineering Department with McDonnell Douglas Hughes Helicopter. And I had no experience in public relations or promotions, but in my retirement I work for an organization who does promotions and who stages shows, comedy shows. And the owner from time to time asked me if I would like to do the promotion on a particular show. So I make a buck or two, I have a hell of a good time, and I have great life. Now there There was a show that opened in New York, and the show was about dysfunctional families and dysfunctional relationships and how this guy survived it. It was a comedy show, pure and simple. therapists in New York stumbled onto the show, and they were amazed at how much help there was in this show, along with laughter. And they then told each other about the show and they told the patients about the show and the show without any promotion in New York went from one week to four months. From a thousand to fifty thousand people that came to see the show. Now that was a program of attraction. The product was there, nobody went out into the hinterlands to promote that show. When that show came to Orange County and I was asked to be the promoter, guess who got the list of every psychologist within miles of that club? Guess who sent them promotional material saying this is a a show you'll like. And guess what the difference is between having a program of attraction and one of promotion? When it's sitting there, and people find it, and then by just the goodness of the thing and by word of mouth, people are brought in, I think that's a program of attraction. But when I get the names of these people and I go out and send them flyers and say, you're going to love this. We loved it in New York. You're going to love it here. And I promote them coming in. I'll let you in for free. I'd let you in for three if you just come in. Compute two drinks. Just to come in because I want you to tell everybody else what a good show it is and then I'm going to charge them. That's promotion. AA is a program solely of attraction. We do absolutely no promotion. We tell people where we are. That is all. We are here and we help alcoholics. If you have a drinking problem will help you. That's it. Now, when I first decided I was coming to AA, I had come to a meeting and I had gotten drunk. And the worst drunk I was on. And my boss had demoted me months before and I was past the last. I was way the hell over the last chance and I violated the last of the last chances with that last gun. And I went in to get my paycheck and I said to him, Tom, don't worry about it. I know that you don't want to fire me. You know, he hadn't. But I said, it's going to be okay because I'm going to go to Alcoholics Anonymous and I'm not going to drink anymore. As soon as I said that, Tom said, well, I hope you do go to alcoholics anonymous and I hope you don't drink anymore and I hope you don t get polio. I hope you don't break your leg. I hope nothing happens to you that's going to make you so much as late for work Monday morning. But you better be in here and you better be on time. And I'll tell you if you're sick or not. You don't call in sick. You come in and I'll say if you are sick. But you be here now. He had determination paper cut on me. He has my paycheck. I was done. But AA to him, without him knowing it, had such an attraction that after all the lies and BS I had told him where he had no confidence in me at all, all I said was I'm going to AA and I'm not going to drink anymore. And just that much of the attraction of Alcoholics Anonymous, he changed his mind and decided that he was not going to fire me. And I talked to him about that many times afterwards because he didn't know anything about AA. He knew nothing about AA, but AA was a program of attraction. I think AA living within its tradition is what makes us, and not just the 11th tradition, but all the traditions which make us very, very attractive. Not just within ourselves, but within our place in the world. And to promote that, that would erode that away. Okay. So, our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion. We need always maintain personal anonymity at the level of press, radio, films and TV. At the time I have been in AA, my place in the scheme of things, I could not get my name and my picture in the paper or on television or in a movie if I had everybody that knows me working for it. You know? There's just no reason for me to be in the papers. But there are people who are members of Alcoholics Anonymous who want to protect their anonymity, who have a difficult time participating in our meetings because sometimes we are not careful about their anonymity and their status in the community is that some of the sensational or the news media in general will report their participation to no benefit of anybody in the program. I was at a meeting the other night when two celebrated people participated, and they participated as AA members, not celebrities, and I believe everybody that left there had their message in their heart and did not then say, I heard so-and-so talk, and he or she said this. Sometimes the individual themselves will break their anonymity. That's a violation in the tradition. The Grecian said they won't do that. I personally don't think that that is such a huge threat to Alcoholics Anonymous as I think it's a threat to the individual person's sobriety. I think their sobriery is much more in danger than AA's destruction, although we should each look at this tradition, and Dr. Bob felt on this tradition that we were violating this tradition as much if we didn't devote who we are within our group as we would be if we did identify ourselves as members of AA by name at the level of press, radio and television. Dr. Bob felt that he should say that he's Dr. Bob Smith an alcoholic. That I could say I'm Howard Poland an alcoholic within the group, but that I should protect my anonymity at the level of press, radio and television. And finally, we as Alcoholics Anonymous believe that the principle of anonymity has an immense spiritual significance. It reminds us that we are to place principles before personalities. we are actually to practice a genuine humility, this to the end that our great blessings may never spoil us. That we shall forever live in thankful contemplation of him who provides over us all. That I, if I want to stay sober and I do, I should take no personal credit for the fact that I'm sober but that I should know in my deepest self my sobriety comes from the principles of the program, and to whatever extent I do that, then I am practicing humility. In the first tradition, I had to eventually come to see that my individual freedom has to be subordinated to whatever extent my behavior must be limited so that the common welfare exists. Whatever I have to give up for that to happen, I have to give that up. Then traditionally through the traditions, I may see a great opportunity me to make a lot of money for myself, which I will share with AA if I can just have an AA hospital. You know? I don't know what would happen in this one case where this guy who I believe is disruptive of the meeting. If I was him and I got away with what I've gotten away with so far, I'd set up a goddamn box office at the door and I'd charge the newcomers when they come in. I'd say, hell, let's group let me do anything. I'm going to charge admission. We have to subordinate those things in favor of the common welfare. I have to subordinate myself to the expression of the group conscience. I have to want to live my life that way. I have to let anybody who says they want to stop drinking come in and be a full fledged member of Alcoholics Anonymous. Don't make any difference if I think we have an Allen on here as soon as they say they have a desire to stop drinking then I must subordinate what I think to help them do that and treat them like a full fledged member and so on through the rest of the traditions because and finally with the last one I have to subordinate myself again so that I can see clearly and know that it isn't me. It is not me that brings about my recovery or anybody else's recovery. It is the principles of the program of Alcoholics Anonymous within the framework of the tradition that brings to us. And for that, I know that we're all grateful. And I'm grateful that you let me come and share. And a thank you. We're now going to have the questions, the answers to the questions. If some more questions have come up and you write them down, we'll see if we can get an answer to them. First off, I'm going to call on Radcliffe to come and share primarily about questions about central service and about our seventh tradition. Radcliff? Hi. Good afternoon. My name is Radcliffe Leahy, and I'm an alcoholic. I want to thank Doug Bingham and the Back to Basics group for inviting me and the others here to share with you. and I think Howard's talk this afternoon about the traditions is probably the best I've ever heard. What do you think? My position at the Los Angeles Central Office in no way gives me the expertise to answer the questions that have been asked here on Tradition 7. But just by way of introduction, I never thought that almost 12 years later I'd be standing up here talking about the traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous because where I come from, I was shuffling around a mental health ward drunk and tranquilized or around police stations drunk and tranquilized. So I just don't understand how this is possible so this is my opinion. The author says my question is how can we as a group better convey the need to be self-supporting how can мы convey that to the individual I think the more that this is my opinion on this first question it appears to me that we really through educating ourselves about the traditions we come into a better idea of why self-support being self-suffering self-reporting is necessary and that when the basket goes around why it's so important at the Los Angeles Central Office for example I'm serving as to the public I'm serving as the executive director and within the fellowship I'm serving as the executive secretary and we confront these issues the traditions are tested every single day I receive phone calls or I pass out phone calls to deal with the issues of the traditions Tradition 7 is a major, major issue. We have people out there, as you may or may not know, that would love to leave thousands, in fact millions of dollars to Alcoholics Anonymous. We could be sitting in a high-rise downtown on the 24th floor. You could come in for your jacuzzi and a massage and dinner, all free, because you say you're an AA member, but we don't do that. It's impressive to me how often that we've had to say no to people that want to contribute to Alcoholics Anonymous. If you're knowledgeable of AlcoholicsAnonymous and the service structure, the general service is their area of expertise in a sense, if there is any expertise, is in protecting the traditions and guarding the traditions for the whole world about Alcoholics Anonymous nationally and internationally, and also making sure that literature that is published is conference approved. The local central, and they have several other functions, the local central offices and intergroups, their special area is in their 12-step work, keeping the phone line open 24 hours like we do in Los Angeles, so that the newcomer and the person that wants recovery that has a drinking problem has the same opportunity you've been given. That takes money to pay the phone bill, to have the people there, to keep the 300 to 400 volunteers we have in the Los Angeles office able to carry the message and do 12-step work, it costs a little bit of money. And to keep the literature there, it cost a little bit of time. It cost a lot of money, and it certainly, I think as you start to convey this information to yourself and to the group, exactly how Alcoholics Anonymous operates and how it survives, how it survived for these last 58 years, you begin to really appreciate like I have, the necessity of being self-supporting. There are a lot of people out there that would love to come into alcoholics and use Alcoholics Anonymous to feather their own nest and for their own causes. And by being self‑supportive, that's one of the main ways that we can survive for the newcomer, to keep the phone lines open, to provide 12‑step work, to carry the message to the alcoholic who is suffering, to provide literature to you and your groups. It says we believe that each group should quickly achieve self-supporting status. This implies that a new group can receive aid from outside itself. Can you explain this? That's not my reading of the seventh tradition, that it implies a group can received aid from an outside of itself. AA members can support a group the members of a group can contribute to the support of that group but once an Alcoholics Anonymous group is open to non-AA participation, non-aa support then it's going to give their decision making over to those people or entities that do that so an AA group should only be self- according to the Seventh Tradition, by receiving money from his own members. If someone had $10,000 and wanted to contribute to AA, could this person anonymously give the $10K to a group and then the group contribute this to Central Office and World Services? So forth. If it's an AA member, I understand that according to the General Service Conference action, an AA can give up to $1,000 per year in their will or their estate. Or if they're living, they can contribute that much per year to the service entities. if a person gave unanimously to the groups and so forth that whole thing gets into we're not here to skirt the traditions we're nicht hier zu skürten die siebente Tradition I would leave that up to the individuals involved and not get involved in that that would be my opinion we would make no recommendation on that other than we would not accept if it's an AA member we would accept $1,000, and the $9,000 is just a whole different issue. We wouldn't discuss it. But we'd be kind. We'd say thank you, and we're giving it on behalf of your Aunt Matilda who died last week. We're sympathetic, but we just cannot accept the money. How is a prudent reserve determined? And in my opinion, and from the literature, it appears to be determined by the group conscience. And one thing I've learned at the Los Angeles Central Office is the central offices cannot borrow money. It has to be totally self-supporting through the membership. So the group conscience of the Central Service Committee is to have a six-month prudent reserve. There has been a central office in the United States that was wiped out recently, well, within the past few years by a hurricane just like that. Could not borrow money and it was because of the prudent preserve and support of the membership that they had enough money in their reserve account to set up their office within a very short time. I think it was a week or two weeks. But a prudent reserve is determined by the group conscience. Some have it a year, some have it for a much shorter period of time, three months. What is a reasonable contribution? That's a good question. You know, down at Los Angeles Central Office, our expense is to keep those phone lines open. We have probably the largest central office in the world in terms of the number of groups we serve and in terms of the example and the existence of the office in the world. And when I look at the low support from the groups for the Los Angeles Central Office, some days I want to cry the same way that Bill Wilson must have wanted to cry when he was trying to run the General Service Foundation and that service entity. But a reasonable contribution is, I would push for at least $2 in the collection plate. A dollar might be worth, what, 27 cents now? I don't know, in 1960 dollars. So that's really up to the individual. But self-supporting is the objective. What does the New York office do with contributions in excess of their prudent reserve? I'm not sure. I have the highest regard for the New York General Service Office I meet with those people on a number of occasions during the year and they're just like us and they cannot borrow money. They are responsible for carrying the AA message to the entire world. As you know AA is in over 134 countries of the world and it's absolutely necessary that they have the funds necessary to do the job of carrying the message through literature and about a hundred other means they carry the message. I want to say something in this regard that I've learned recently, that when you put money in the collection plate, that money is going not only for your group, but it's also going for the service entities. The largest supporter and the largest contributor in an indirect way to the General Service Office to keep it functioning at the level it's functioning are the central offices and the intergroups in the United States and North America. How that's done is through the literature. When you purchase literature through your central office, you're also supporting that office and you're supporting the General Services Office, AA World Services, and the Grapevine. That money is more money than comes from the group contributions so when you put money in the collection plate and you're deciding where that money should go in your seventh tradition wherever it goes you can be assured it's supporting all service entities in Alcoholics Anonymous both general service and the central service office that's provided the people in your group are educated to know that the seventh tradition is vital for the existence of AlcoholicsAnonymous Well, my hand that was dealt to me in questions I had seven sevens And that is it for me We'll turn it over to Howard Thank you very much Radcliffe That was great I'll now call on Mary Ellen do you have the long form of the tradition right here I want to look at tradition 3 ok thanks hi everyone I'm Mary Ellen a grateful alcoholic standing on my tiptoes i don't uh i want to thank you for asking me doug and jim it's a real honor to be here okay um some of my questions are relating to Tradition Spray and here's my little thing I like to read it first I forget where I I forget where I oh here it is first I'll read there's a reason for because of one of the questions there's a reason for reading the short form of Tradition 3 and the long form, and you'll see it in a minute. The short form of Tradion 3, the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. Now, the long from. Our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. Hence we may refuse none who wish to recover, nor ought AA membership ever depend upon money or conformity. Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA group, provided that as a group they have no other affiliation. And here's the first question on Tradition 3. There seems to be a conflict between the long and the short form of the third tradition. How can we resolve the difference between all alcoholics and all who desire to stop drinking? There is no conflict between the short form and the long form of Tradition 3. It says our membership ought to include all who suffer from alcoholism. It doesn't say all alcoholists. But even if it did, at the last sentence of Tradition 3 in 12 and 12 says something like this. If you are an alcoholic, if you say you are, an alcoholic. In other words, we don't tell you in Alcoholics Anonymous if you are a alcoholic or not. If you aren't alcoholic, you are certainly welcome to AA, and we believe that AA will work for you. If you are not an alcoholic, AA probably won't work for you. It would be very, very difficult. In the pamphlet, Problems Other Than Alcohol, Bill W. stated very clearly that there is no way to turn a non-alcoholic into an alcoholic. And I'm bringing this up now because of the questions that are also related to Tradition 3. But in other words, if you have a desire to stop drinking, the implication is very clearly, to me at least, that you have an alcoholism. You have a desired to stop drink alcohol. It isn't you have desired to start drinking milk or Coca-Cola or water. So you must be an alcoholic if you had the desired to stopped drinking and you are interested in being part of the AA Fellowship. My husband is a very normal drinker. Almost every night he has a glass of wine or a glass of beer. He never has two. He has never said to me, Mary Ellen, I really should have a desire to stop drinking. But he has no need to because he's not an alcoholic. I hope that helps. That's the first question. I'm trying to be brief, but I get a little carried away and I'll try to be brief. Okay. Tradition three. My question is, is coaxing or pressuring a newcomer or even a longer term member into saying I'm so-and-so and an alcoholic a violation or a subtle infringement on Tradition 3. Our approach in Alcoholics Anonymous is to never coax anybody or to pressure anybody. If you read our traditions very carefully and our steps, these are suggestions only. Even when a letter is sent from the AA World Services office in New York, no matter what the letter says, Because part of the letter always says something like this. It has been the experience of AA members that, in other words, there is no pressure and there is no coaxing. The only thing we can do is to be good examples in Alcoholics Anonymous. If I'm an alcoholic and there's a newcomer there, I invite the newcomer to come to the meeting with me. And you know, that's what they did with me when I was brand new 24 years ago. My sponsor didn't pound it into my head that I was an alcoholic, that I wasn't falling down drunk. It took me a while to come to that, to admit that I Was an Alcoholic. And I think that the newcomer has every right to sit in a room and be very quiet and listen a lot. And the answers will come. This person had other questions. Is pressuring someone to conform to our way fair or just? I think I just answered that. We don't pressure. The third question, what if they can't or won't admit their alcoholism? Will this practice drive away newcomers? I say, let the newcomer decide for himself or herself if he or she is an alcoholic. And I believe that his higher power or her higher power will guide that person to the right answer. Okay. Believe it or not, that was all one page. Three. Oh, I just love this one. I'm an alcoholic, comma, addict. But being I'm also an addict, am I not welcome in an AA group? Absolutely. I am an alcoholic. I never got into drugs, I never got into the pills or anything like that. So I have no problem with that. But if somebody is an alcoholic and an addict, Bill W. said in that pamphlet, Problems Other Than Alcohol, that we can, AA can help you. However, if you are, let's say a heroin addict, and you never picked up alcohol, I personally believe that AA really won't help you, that you belong in another anonymous program that has adopted the 12 steps of AA to what they, in other words, what they need in Narcotics Anonymous is not the same thing as what we need to help us be delivered from the craving for alcohol. And I think it's very important. But Bill W. did say that if you are an alcoholic and an addict, you are always welcome in Alcoholics Anonymous, and that the 12 Steps of AA can help you because one of the requirements is a desire to stop drinking. The only requirement is a desire to start drinking. So you are welcome if you're an alcoholic and an addict. I do want to caution you though about something. When you are a member of Alcoholics Anonymous even if you have a, if you are duly addicted and you were asked to speak at an AA meeting, please keep in mind that there may be a newcomer who comes into that room, that meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous, who is looking for an AA meet-up. Who is suffering from the disease of alcoholism and wants to stop drinking. I believe it is imperative that we confine our pitch to an AA pitch. that we confine ourselves to our disease of alcoholism and our recovery from the disease of alcoholicism through the AA program. I think it's imperative that we stress that. If somebody says casually, I also took heroin, that's okay with me, but I don't want to hear a heroin addict story in Alcoholics Anonymous. well that's all on three I'll be up later do you want me to do them? do you wanna do the other two? okay there was one on seven tradition seven okay Mary Ellen I don't know where it is now well here's two oh I love this one we have an old timer who seems to think that the weight of the group's success rests on his shoulders how can other members with less time who are willing to learn politely ask him using information provided by AA World Services to step aside and participate less so that we can take care of what we know we're able to. The key is politely ask. I don't think you should ask anybody to step aside in Alcoholics Anonymous. I believe that if there is an old-timer who seems to act like he's kind of, he's a trusted servant who's trying to govern, telling you his way is the best way. I don't think you should say that to him. I think you should say, let's say three of you go to see this person or before the meeting have two others go with you. We want to participate more in our group. We wanted to help our group be successful as an AA Group. We want commitment in this group. In other words, if he's doing just about everything or he's just running the show ask for one of the commitments in other words it's up to the group to not let this happen if it's starting to happen help him to be relieved of some of his commitments by willing by being willing to take one of them on if three of you go to this person you will have taken three of his commitments if you say it politely in other worlds you are part the group and you want to share in the work of the group so you want one of the commitments. And you can do it very nicely. Oh, here's one. I've attended a few meetings that talked about everything but drinking. Oh boy. As a visitor I was patient and tolerant listening quietly yet had an urge to walk out, how would you handle a similar situation? First of all, I would not walk out. Because if that group is allowing, let's say it's a discussion group, and it's allowing discussion about everything else but alcoholism and the recovery they're from, they need you, don't they? They need you. Don't walk away. If it's a discussion group, you can raise your hand and simply remind the group that this is an AA group and we are to talk about alcoholism and our recovery from. If you're a visitor and you feel uncomfortable about doing this, what I would do is I would wait until the meeting was over. or I would go up to the secretary of the group and share your feelings about that. You have a right to do that. And I want to share one little thing. I was invited to speak about a year ago to, I won't even say where it was, and it was a friend of mine in my home group, and she was the secretary, and she said, Mary Ellen, I wantto tell you something. I have a real problem with this group. They want to talk about everything but alcoholism, And I was fortunate enough to be the leader for 15 minutes, and then I was able to choose a topic. And I reminded them that this was an AA group, and that if someone did talk about other matters not related to alcoholism and recovery in AA, that I would raise my hand and remind that person. And the first person who volunteered talked about his sex problems and that he was a gay man, etc., etc. And it just went on and on. And if a newcomer walked in that door, he would not think he was in AA. I let him go on for a minute and I said, I have to stop you. And he was really hurt. And he wasn't going to stop me. He was a newcomor with about 30 days. I will never forget his face. I said I'm really sorry. I will talk to you after the meeting. But remember what I said. This is an AA meeting. And do you know what? That was the only time I had to do that. Everybody heard that, and a few of the men came up to me after that meeting and thanked me. They said it was going on too long at that meeting. Thanks. Thank you, Mary Ellen. I want to pat my part a little bit here to tell you a story. When I came into Alcoholics Anonymous, the only person that I can remember that held up her hand when I held up my hand was a gal that stayed sober from July of 1972, and she's still sober today. She's one of our favorite speakers, a delightful person, a hugely successful AATOC. But in July of 72, she was 13 years old. And she was a practicing alcoholic who had just been nipped by the ringer. I know her mother. Her mother had gone through the dredges of hell as an alcoholic. Now, how deep do they have to get bitten if they want, if they have a desire to stop drinking? How bad does her life, how bad does the daughter's life have to give? How closely does it have to become like the mother's life was before we will let her in as a full-fledged member? I don't want my daughter, who doesn't drink at all, who I believe is an alcoholic as a day as long if she would ever drink, to have to go through the hell that I went through. if when she starts to drink, she wants to come to Alcoholics Anonymous. And I don't care what the hell else she takes. But if she starts to drink and she wants to stop drinking, I don' t want her to have to go this long or this long. I want her go ever how long until she wants to stop drinkin'. I hope our traditions let her in. I hope she never comes. but this other girl came and we let her in and she was a full-fledged member and she's the shining light and we all cry when we hear her share Don, would you please share?