Steps 10 and 11 – And Joe H. – Prescott Big Book Study – Part 7 of 8 – Mark H.

My name is Mark. I'm an alcoholic. All suffering comes from resistance to what is. How many of you are suffering or have suffered at various times with depression don't resist it be as thankful for what God brings you is what God takes away stop resisting we've ceased fighting anything or anybody you and I live in the world of relativity if you never experienced depression how would you know what joy is stop resisting them those kind of things come up, begin to seek some solution. Doesn't always have to be medication. Over the years I've suffered tremendously from that. Diet, exercise, breathing, lack of resistance to what is, all of those things can help you with that. I want to talk a little bit more about some of the things with 11 step and then I'm going talk about working with others I have an altar in my home a sacred space in my home that developed over a period of time on that altar I have a lot of things that are just symbolic of the spiritual path that I'm on things that have come into my life over periods of time some of my my Christian practices some of My Buddhist practices some of them a Native American all that's on my altar about two months ago I got what's called a Zofu it's a sitting cushion I have found that when you set aside an area of your home for that when you go into that area and begin your practices it begins to take on a power and it begins the take on an energy so you might consider that it has helped me tremendously that's where I'll go and I'll sit in the morning when I begin to do my practices or I sit in the evening start seeking out some of these other things that are available to you as I told you there's fabulous things I'll never forget one time a group that Joe belonged to for years they're over seekers if they're such a thing the answer is deep down within so they'd ask me to come and spend a weekend doing Steps 10 and 11. And the place that we held this was a monastery called Mount Calvary, which is on the highest peak overlooking Santa Barbara at nighttime. You can literally see the whole coastline. It's just incredible. So I get there, and of course, if you've never been to visit a monastery, monasteries do everything at a set time. They get up, they do prayers, they'll do their meditation, they'll work, they'll eat, and depending on the monastery most I've been to everything is so incredibly well maintained it's a demonstration of the spiritual law of order for example so these people have been going to this monastery for seven years doing these retreats trying to get closer to God that's another paradox and it's impossible to get close to God God's closer than breathing all you do is wake up to that which is already there that which was separating you from that which is already there gets removed I guess is a way to say it so they asked me up there to do this thing on 10 and 11 so Friday night I basically started out and I said you all been coming up here for seven years and everything you need to know about 10 and11 you could have experienced your very first time out up here without some guru teacher it's all been right here right in front of your face and you don't even know it they said what are you talking about and i said well have you noticed here for example and at this place they observe grand silence 10 o'clock at night till seven in the morning drives drunks and addicts crazy grand silence and the brothers there i like them because if they catch you talking you you you wouldn't think they were holy men for a while so they really make you stick to it so the drunks of course they'll wander down the road a quarter of a mile so they can yap yap yap see before there was sound there was silence and after the sound is gone there's silence, silence is our natural state yet it's the last place that my mind wants me to ever be like Joe says because it's uncomfortable so back to that illustration of steps 10 and 11 I said well much like our big book I said at this monastery they all get up at the same time when I work with people I get up at the sametime Monday through through Friday. Every single morning, my alarm goes off at the same time. Currently, that's 4.40 a.m. in the morning. And I learned that at a monastery when they get up at the same time, and the reason they do that is simple. They know that the flesh is weak. They know that we are slothful. And so what happens when you get into a discipline of getting up the same time every day of the week, or a minimum of five days a week, you'll get up whether you want to or not. After a while, it just becomes a habit for you. And then they will do certain practices at the same time every day. Then they will eat at the same time. Then, they will work. Then ,they will meditate. Then they'll do prayer. Then,, they'll have their lunches and they'll come to the evening meal. They'll do evening prayer and evening meditation. And I said to them you all have been coming here for seven years and you've missed completely what they've been trying to teach you in this place which is disciplines. The tenth and Levenstech are strict disciplines. We don't like that word, today I love that word. Discipline is the horse I ride. So you might consider trying that. Picking a set time every day and getting up at that set time. I find people who have some things I want and I get close to them and I steal everything from them I can. I would encourage you to do the same. there was a man that came out to the first session Joe and I did out here many years ago he was 22 years sober then, he'd heard a tape good member of AA and he'd had heard a type of Joe and me and it moved him so much he hopped a plane from Dallas and came out here and I'm not sure, I think he calls me his sponsor When I look back, I had done so much work with the disciplines of 10 and 11 and I suspect at times he will come to me for spiritual guidance. I go to him for common sense and discipline because many times I'm very wise spiritually and lack no common sense. Some of you can relate to that. He's an ex-Marine. He gets up at 4 a.m. seven days a week. He's 71 years old. he goes to a gym he runs between 3 and 5 miles 5 days a week and lifts iron the other times and he goes back home and from 5.30 to 6.30 he does prayer and meditation helps a lot of people has tremendous balance in his life those are the kind of people that I'm trying to find all the time he's got some things I want at 71 years old I want to be trucking 3 to 5 miles a day you know He's been married to the same woman for 30, 31 years now. I have no frame of reference for that one. Matter of fact, I don't read sex inventory to him because I've been married and divorced four times. He has no frame or reference for me. I need to read inventory to guys who've been married and reversed four times and don't do that anymore. See, I want to tell you something, and it's important for me, find people who've had an experience and that you want what they have and go find out what they do. but people who haven't had the experience cannot help you so those are some of the things that I still continue to do with steps 10 and 11 last couple years in terms of be quick to see where religious people are right, I've been doing a bunch of work and practices with the book called The Power Now by Eckhart Tolle and with the Four Agreements and when I get a book, by the way I'm not looking for knowledge I'm educated way past my intelligence I'm looking for practices that I can begin to work with that will show up in my life so I can give my books away. That it becomes a part of my life. And then you practice, practice, practice, over and over and ever. You know that thing we hate called repetition? So that's some of the stuff that I do with the 10th and the 11th step. My life is exciting because there's no end to it. There's always places to go and things to learn. But to do it along with and not instead of. So let's talk about the 12-step and sponsorship, for lack of a better word. That word's not used in the big book. It certainly alludes to a relationship between two people. This is what I currently do, which again, this has changed tremendously over the years. I've made every mistake in working with others you can make. You first start doing that, you think that their sobriety has something to do with you you get attached to it you develop these dependencies relationships I've gone through all that kind of stuff but here's how it looks today if a person comes to me today and says will you sponsor me I don't say yes I tell them that I will consider that and we normally do exactly what the big book says in working with others is I will meet with them for the first time and I will try and find out all I can about them and I have them talk to me about their life, about their drinking life and or drug life, about their wife. Their life in sobriety. What are they doing with 10, 11, and 12? This is assuming that they've done some work. Where are they with amends? Do they have unfinished amends?" I found out everything I can't about them. And then I sit down and I go through the chapter working with others and the reason I do that there's about somewhere between 20, 22 instructions that are given to that new person or that person who wants to go back through the steps about their responsibility and what they have to do. Things like this. Do you want to quit for good? Are you willing to go to any extreme to do that? Does the desire to find God dwell within you? Are You willing to place dependence ahead of God ahead of dependence on other people? Are YOU prepared to go through with the 12 steps of the program of recovery? And I make them completely responsible for this path that we're going to walk down. I'm going to work alongside, but I'm not going to take any responsibility for the life of their sobriety. And I'm beginning to teach them right away that this is going to be about them and a relationship with God and there won't be any dependency placed on me. When we get done with that, I make sure that they're very clear what willing to go to E-Link looks like. I believe we do a disservice to each other and to new people in this area because we ask them if they're willing to go to any length. They answer yes to a question, then they don't know what it looks like. So I take time and I outline these 12 steps and I talk about we're going to look, take a hard look at this first step is this really you? You're going to want to find out that because if you're a real alcoholic and don't have a vital spiritual experience you're probably going to die so I talk about the first step and I tell them You're going to write three inventories, and you're going to do a fifth step. And I talk about six and seven, and I talk about amends, that if you want to do this way of life, you're going to have to pay this money back and make these amends to these people. Quite often, you get this response. Mark, I just want to get sober. This is a bit much, don't you think? You see, I'm not here to soft sell this thing. See? Not here to soft sell it, but I'm not here to deceive somebody. I talk about the 10th and 11th step. And then I talk about the 12th step Then I normally would send them home and I'll say I want you to think about this for a few days And if this is what you want to do then call me back and then they'll come back to my house and now we're going to start on the title page of the big book And we're gonna use a prayer God set aside what I think I know for an open mind and new experience And we'll talk And we are gonna go through the book together word by word page by page And when it gives us an instruction we're going to do it. I have them do all the reading. I allow God to guide me in terms of what I bring up and what questions I ask. I do not allow any form of dependency to be built on me. I do now I do know how to have them call me every day. I'm a busy man. I'm not going to call me every day I work off a day planner I typically will meet with them once a week I also learned this lesson the hard way I very seldom will ever meet with a drunk for more than an hour and a half. Why? Because their energy is incredibly sick and toxic. That's why. I normally burn sage before they come, and I burn it after they go. I don't want that energy in my home. Listen, I spent years of sitting down six, seven, eight hours with drunks. They'd leave, and I'd be sick three days and didn't know why. I was really asleep to some stuff. Or you sit and you do these fifth steps and you listen to them for 48 hours and wonder why you're crazy for a month. I didn't know, I was really asleep for a lot of stuff. So we begin that journey through the steps. Constantly I have to remind them that you agreed at the beginning to go to any lengths for victory over alcohol. I don't take a lot of time with it. We keep meeting in those sessions and we go through the process. there's points behind each step that unless they're in agreement there's no sense going on for example at the end of the first step when you become aware of the fact of your need for power you're going to get open minded about God if there's still resistance to God there's not going to be there's just no sense going on because something got missed in the first steps when we get to inventory it depends on because I get a chance to work with people many different lengths of sobriety many different links i think we have a tendency to sponsor people who are like us so i sponsor two kinds of people i get to sponsor a lot of them have long-term sobriety dying of untreated alcoholism which is exactly what happened to me there's another group who i get the sponsor who've been around aa one two three four years done little or nothing in the way of work and they're real sick and I get to sponsor them. And there's a third group called chronic relapsers, which is interesting because I have no relapse history, but I attract them. I've told you what I think that's about. I was a bad person in my last lifetime. I talk to them about the experience of the experience is more important than the explanation. One of the greatest things that can happen to an alcoholic through the steps is the experience is beyond their understanding, because God is beyond understanding. I think that's a wonderful thing. So we continue to sit down and we go through the steps. Typically when I will get to inventory, depending on their experience, will determine how I have them write inventory. If they're brand new and completely sound asleep, I don't even begin to have them write the kind of inventory that Joe and I write today, because they're incapable of doing that so the inventory is much simpler I will have them get clear in the second column third column what does it affect sometimes I have to help them see their part in the fourth and I haven't write a simplified fear inventory and a sex inventory I put a time limit on inventories I will not allow people to drag those out why because I've had the experience Joe talked about the actual time writing an inventory as you all know from your own experience, it's probably like, I don't know how he phrased it, but you take six months to write it, the actual time is three days. And your experience is you're going to live that inventory as you take that six months. So I've learned to put a time frame on inventory. If they get stuck and I'm going to be working out of my house on a Saturday or something, I have them come over, sit in my house, we pray, and I have him right in my home. Because sometimes it's simple questions and they get stuck on. And I get them through that. Why? Because they need power. Then we do the fifth step. If I get asked to work with people that have time in the program, I always have them do multiple fifth steps. And if they've been sober a long time, they really balk at that. I remember one woman when she came to me, she had 32 years. She really bulked at multiple fifths steps. I said, I don't care about your balking. You asked me to take you through the work. I have some things that you don't have. You're going to do what I say. Book says person or persons, right? See, you can always use the book to get your way. She says yes. So I found one woman who had about two years of sobriety which really made her angry because she had this superiority. And then I had her do it with a man who had been sober for a long time and then I asked her to do one with me. If they're new, I don't always have them do multiple fifth steps. It depends. If they are completely ego-bound, bound to their mind, I have found multiple fifth steps is a very freeing exercise, so I will have them do that. Sometimes I've also had another friend come over and the two of us will listen to a fifth step. Then I give him different exercises for six or seven. Over the years, I've learned discernment with each individual that sits across from me. Then, of course, we get to amends, we make the list. I like to still have them use cards and we will sit down and talk about it and anyone I take through the process anymore when we get to the ninth step whenever they call me I don't even say hello I say how many approaches have you made how many amends all they ever hear out of me is how many they don't hear are you having a nice day nothing how many Amends have you Made the reason is I'm trying to keep in their consciousness what they're doing right now which is making Amends then I also have them read the pages in the book that describe the Amends process every morning as they begin to practice the disciplines of 10 and 11. My goal is to get anyone that I'm working with free of me as quick as possible. I have several people who would use the term sponsor with me. Over the years, we just develop a relationship. They know my stuff as much as I know their stuff. Thank God. We were talking the other day about accountability. I have a tremendous amount of accountability in my life. I do a thing I call steel on steel. Proverbs 27, 17, there was a quote, as iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. And off of those words, I got an idea, and the idea was to get two, three, four people to meet once a week or every other week to take every area of her life, including the disciplines of 10, 11, and 12, and to set a timer and to report to the members sitting there how am I doing in that area. In the last week, this is how many morning prayers and meditation, how many evening reviews that I did. This is how much how many meetings I went to. This is where I'm at with my sponsor. This is who the people I have sponsors at. Am I having any trouble in relationships? How's my job going? How's finances going? How's physical health going? If I owe any financial amends, am I making them and do I have a plan? Do I keep my word? And then they shut the timer off and then I pull out a notebook and the people sitting there get to give me considerations. Because why? Because I get into self-delusion, I fall off the track. My mind says I'm doing well, I show up at Steel & Steel and I report and they let me know how crazy I am. I've been participating in Steal and Steal since 1994. Of the many spiritual practices I've employed, it's one of the most beneficial that I've ever worked with. There's been times... Thank God for what they have said to me in Stele and Steel. There was a period of time where I was working a lot and speaking a lot, and they said tome, you're going to get drunk. Stop. You're sponsoring too many people. Stop. We were sitting down there, and we had to laugh about this when we first started doing Steel on Steel. They asked me the question, when was the last time you went in and had a physical? I could not remember. I had great medical insurance and a free VA. I could have had it. This is how asleep I was. They said, we'd like you to consider that your physical health is a part of your spiritual life and why don't you go start getting physicals? That sounds like a great idea. See, that kind of stuff. They've helped me grow so much. it's just beyond belief the other thing that steel and steel did for me I didn't realize was it allowed me to set aside the ego and allow people who love me to say to say things to me and not have me get offended by it keeps me on track I mean Joe can Joe can tell you that he's having I think his first real experience with incredibly how valid steel and steal can be I do steel and seal today two little groups I do one group is is a woman who's sober 39 years another woman sober 18 years and me so the three of us meet every other weekend I do steel and steel with two other people one man is the man I would use the term sponsor with another man's only been sober about two years so so two two times a month I have two different groups of steel and steel where I'm accountable I'm responsible to all my employees I'm accountable to everyone I work with I'm acceptable to my home group get up to the 12 step I get a lot of people will ask me to do some work with them. My life is imbalanced today. I've learned to say no, but I've done enough work with other people that I can say no and call so and so. They'll be able to take you through the process. So again, my role in going through these steps is not to build dependencies, to be truthful, to being honest, to let them be accountable. I do some other things, I suppose at times people have an impression of me that I can be hard I'm not as hard as the disease of alcoholism I'll tell you I take a lot of phone calls and in my business life I do that a lot so I don't have a great love for the telephone so I let anyone know that I sponsor, that if you call me this is going to be what is called a bulleted session, that If you're looking for someone to have long intimate dialogues with you better get someone else because I'm not your guy particularly these people that I get sometimes, you know, who like to talk all the time I have them get a timer and when they call me I have him set it on six minutes they get six minutes, that's it I'm trying to teach him something Steel and Steel did something else because initially when we started we had six of us, he could only talk for six minutes pretty soon I found out when I went to meetings of AA I very seldom ever share for more than five minutes in a meeting of AA. Prior to steel and steel, I'd talk for as much as 20 minutes. I begin to learn disciplines and accountability in that process. So those are some of the things that I do when it comes to... Right now, I'm currently... It's three more than I wish, but I'm taking seven people through the steps. So the way my schedule works out is about every other week. Sometimes if I have a choice of being in a meeting of AA or sitting across from somebody working on the big book, my preference is the big books. I still attend a minimum of three meetings a week. I still submit to the process. I'm very, very accountable with people in my life. There's no secrets in my wife. My life's an open book. I'm still seeking other disciplines along in the 11th step along with everything else that I'm doing I am blessed beyond my wildest dreams ladies and gentlemen you know I live in this world of impermanence a gentleman was talking to me my attachments have almost killed me I have none today he was talking about he'd been married a long time and one day his wife came home and said she wanted a divorce And I said to him, do you love her? He said, yes. I said, then if you love Her, the only appropriate response would have been, God bless you, go in peace. He said well that isn't what I was able to do and I said I understand that, I've been there because of these attachments you have. Everything is on loan. I avoid the word my as much as possible because that implies ownership. Every relationship I had, you're all on loan to me for a period of time, I don't know how long it is, I'm not going to take it for granted. I want you to know I love you and I thank you for being in my life the job I have I don't know how long I'll have it but I don' t attach to it it doesn' t define who I am my sense of who I Am arises from within not out of here I get to wear the world like a loose garment have fun in the one act play I tell people when I go into work CEO of a company when I drive through the gate I just grin and say okay God it's a one act play I get to play CEO for a few hours help me be the best one I can be and I play that role. Then I go down and maybe I'm going to speak or do a lecture. Well, this is the role I've got to play. God, in your one act play. I love God directing my life in all these one act plays. So I'm in the world to play the role that he assigns. What a fabulous deal we got. This fellowship and this program called Alcoholics Anonymous and these incredible sacred things called the 12 steps can change and transform your life beyond your wildest dreams. My life truly isn't my own business anymore. And I quit that. I'm grateful for every breath that I take. Very grateful for the weekend that you allowed me to share with you all. And I love you all very much, and I hope our paths cross again. God bless you. Thank you. There's another spiritual principle that our book alludes to and I'll ask it as have you ever tried to care about somebody who doesn't care? Now you can fool yourself into thinking that you care. You can try and care. But I believe this, if that person doesn't care, you can't. I'm talking about just caring about wanting to live or die. If you don't care, I can't. If you care, I can not care. And that's the kind of spirit that you're brought to. Our book says if a man is not ready to accept what you have to offer, it's not easy when the ego is involved. Let him go. You might even, if you don' t let him go, you might spoil a later chance for that person. I used to be the kind sponsor that thought every single person that asked me to work with them, I was supposed to say yes. That's like thinking you never say no to an AA request. That philosophy destroys families and marriages and relationships with children. It precludes inspiration, intuition, prayer. I bring that same thing to working with others. I'm not supposed to work with everyone that asks me. What am I supposed to believe? They're in their right mind. they've come to me because they're not in their right mind they're desperately searching for a new mind I have a new mine, I'm supposed to use that I ask God to show me I do basically the same as Mark said and I also know that he does this too when someone asks me and I think I also think there's a lot more to sponsorship than just taking someone through the work that's about all I know how to do but in that there is a lot there's a lot of responsibility it's as much of a commitment for me as it is for the person who's asking I don't take that lightly just to have numbers I have an assignment it's a simple assignment but it seems to weed out about half that ask and if they can't I can't help somebody who's not in the grace of God and as a matter of fact I've kind of quit trying to help other alcoholics because no human power can relieve what you suffer from when you come to me I have found that there's basically three types of sponsors those that point you to yourself just don't drink do this you can do this I think Paul and I talked about it the other day some of those sponsors make a dangerous assumption when you come to them that you're clear you're alcoholic just because you're here and to make that assumption can not only be deadly for them it can be deadly for me because see I need that connection one alcoholic with another and if I make that assumption it can kill you And if you make that assumption, it can kill you. I don't care if you're new, old, or in between. I am never going to make that assumption that you're clear or that I'm clear on anything. Three types of sponsors. One points you toward yourself. Just don't drink. Do this. Do that. Do this? Why don't you just surrender? And they speak to you like those people in your family that used to just baffle you. Why don'T you just outgrow it? What's wrong with you? Why don't you just quit drinking? Then there's the kind of sponsor that points you to them as the answer. Call me every day. I'm going to do this. I'm gonna do that for them. I'm doing this for them, right? I'm not gonna do this for them. I keep my babies sober, right. So they're either pointing you toward yourself or toward them. I've always had the kind, well I've only had one sponsor in sobriety except the first six months and that was just out of fear. I picked somebody totally different than the guy that I went to six months later. I believe in sponsorship and I believe if you're a sponsor and you don't have a sponsor you shouldn't be sponsoring people I believe if you haven't had a spiritual awakening as a result of the steps you shouldn' t be sharing the steps with people that's for me now I met too many sponsors that don't know they don't even have a sponsor what happened to the lineage I believe in a lineage I love what they do with their lineage gathering and they know their lineage if your life's on the line what if you ask some guy that everybody they've worked with has drank again. How do you know? You got to ask, who's your sponsor? Who's his sponsor? I'm very happy to be a part of a lineage that requires responsibility and commitment and respect. I've met a lot of people, don't even know their sponsors. Who's your sponsors' sponsor? I don't know. What's your sponsored's last name? I don'T know where we were the other night, but I asked somebody, he said, I just got a new sponsor. What's his name? You know, if your life's on the line, you better take it seriously. My sponsor has 36 years. He's gone from the Colorado State Penitentiary to working for the Department of Corrections for the state he was locked up in. Amazing man. He was made a pipe carrier for the Lakota Nation. That's unheard of for a white guy. amazing man he has what I want he still has what I want but you know what he instilled in me something that has taken me to the point where you know what I also want what I have for the first time in my life and I'm not a thief anymore well sometimes see I thought I was a thief even though I had stolen stuff physically but I saw even if I hadn't done that I was basically a thief I take a little from you I take a little from you little from this book. I take stuff from people I don't even like. I'm a thief by nature. For the first time in my life, I have some kind of healthy love for myself. I thought self-centeredness meant you weren't supposed to care about yourself anymore. If there was an unhealthy self-love, there couldn't be a healthy self-Love. So if there are sponsors that always point you to you being the solution or to them being the solution be careful i've always my sponsor has always pointed me to god and not outside of myself he didn't allow me to become dependent on him because he couldn't manage his own life he didn'T allow me TO BECOME DEPENDENT ON HIM FOR MY SOBRIETY BECAUSE HE COULDN'T KEEP HIMSELF SOBER I HAVEN'T LIVED IN THE SAME TOWN WITH MY SPONSOR FOR 15 YEARS HE LIVES IN DENVER I lived in L.A., then I lived in India, and we're close and I'm accountable and I talk to him and we are peers he said the sponsorship relationship has ended we are friends we can talk about whatever you want I then had a Native American teacher he didn't allow me to become dependent on him and he connected me to the earth and to that which is around me he showed me how I am connected to those things and I was terribly disconnected and I love that man he spent two years with me a lot of work proper use of the will bringing a vision of God's will into all my activities he shared Native American practice with me to the point where I think it would be very disrespectful because of what the race that I come from has done to his people it would not be very disrespectful for me to share any of those practices with other people I'm very leery of white people doing sweat lodges and teaching people how to do Native American practice. It's just not something I could do. I'm not against people practicing those things. We've already taken so much from them, you know, we should let them share what they have. We've stolen so much from so many other people. My next teacher was a Christian man who had lived with Thomas Merton for many years in a monastery at Gethsemane. Dr. Jim Finley, who's also a psychotherapist. He got me in touch with a part of myself that I hated. I hated feeling unless it was comfortable. That's the pattern of my disease. He taught me about contemplation. He taught мне the most important thing I've ever learned about therapy, and I've been a therapist, and that is that I'm not the one that has to heal this stuff. I'm не healer. I'm the healee. And he always brought it back to God and I saw that therapy or anything, you, a movie, a book, not to look at them as answers. To look at then as a four-step tool to continue to discover truth. You can find truth everywhere once you start to look for it. My God, I heard a song the other day and I finally heard the line, the words that they were saying and it said, you take a stranger by the hand, a man who doesn't even understand his wildest dreams. You walk across the dirt and mud and lead him to an ocean that he's never dreamed of. It came from a song, U2, Bono wrote it. I thought, wow, that's what we do. A complete stranger and the only way I know him is by knowing myself and armed with certain facts about myself and the more I find out about myself, the more i know about him because we have a common disease and hopefully we're going to share in a common solution. My job is to find out if they want to get involved in that course of action that has worked for me because I don't have any other course that will work for them. There's nothing I need to teach somebody that they don't already know. They just need to remember it once in a while. So I give them an assignment. Read the first 164 pages and answer these four questions. Is this that you've just read what you want to do? Don Coyus always taught me at the very beginning, if you can involve the ego and to think that it has something to do with it, they'll have a much easier time. So I ask them, is this work what you want to do? And are you willing to go to these lengths to do this work? And I ask him, why do you want me to do it? Why do you do this? And I asked him, why with me? Based on those answers, I make a decision. I'll give you an example. A woman comes to my house with 13 years. She says, I'm a mess. I want to do this work you were talking about the other day. I said, great. Gave her a little something to do. She gets up to go. She seems absolutely 100% willing. My intuition says, that's what you trust when you're working with others. My intuition say, ask her to sit back down and just tell you a little bit about what she does in her daily life besides like meetings and trying to help others. So I asked her. She said, well, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday I meet with my therapist one-on-one. On Tuesday and Thursday I meet with the group. On Friday I do ACA. I have my journal working and something, something, something. And I said, would you be willing to put that stuff aside until you finish amends and then decide what you want to come back to? She said no. And I remember the time the man asked me the two things I thought were so important. Working with others and speaking. And he asked me, was I willing to put that stuff aside so I could have a new experience with it and see what I had turned it into? I had turn those things into what I do to keep myself sober rather than what we get to do to seek a deeper relationship with that which keeps us sober. And she said she wasn't willing to put the stuff aside. And I said, I'm sorry, I can't help you. I can work with you. This has taken many years to come to but I cannot work with people on medication. I'm Sorry. I believe it's a block. It doesn't block God. It just hasn't worked for me. It hasn't been successful. I've yet to see anybody on medication, and I believe there are people that need medication. Absolutely. I'm not a doctor. But I have not yet seen anybody on meditation get through the 12 steps. They have another alternative. Whether they want to admit it or not, whether they have a chemical imbalance or not. God either is or he isn't. We've seen miraculous healings. Maybe they need to be willing to get off it in the right medically supervised way, but I just don't. I just do not want to involve myself in that because I'm not a doctor. I'm no a specialist. I'm even no a counselor anymore. And I really can't help another alcoholic, but I can point them to that which already is. I don't want them dependent on me. I certainly don't want them to be encouraged to be dependent on themselves. And I can point them to God and share my experience and be there. and try to have some compassion. I've developed a friendship and have been somewhat effective in at least pointing them in the right direction with drug addicts. But I certainly would encourage a drug addict to find another drug addict so they have that common bond because that's what I think where it really happens. So at the beginning you're exposed to these three legacies you're probably involved in the fellowship which is unity when done with step zero you're going to probably get involved in recovery and you're gonna start to become of service for a long time I thought those three parts of the program were separate you know if I'm doing this now at this moment I'm involved in recovery and if I met a meeting I'm involving the fellowship and if i'm helping another alcoholic I'm involve in service and I forgot the promise of that circle is that one day not only I could become whole but those things could become whole. And I no longer see those things as separate because I've begun to become whole by the promise of that cycle. You better believe if I'm involved in the fellowship it has to do with recovery and it has zu do with service. I believe recovery has zu du with unity and service and vice versa. They're all one. They're not separate. I also don't see anything spiritual in my life as separate from our program because I don't see our program as a place or an institution. I see it as a way of life, and living a spiritual life includes everything. What isn't included in the spiritual life? Well, you'd say, well, resentment's not included in a spiritual life. Sure it is. It brings me back to God over and over andover. Thank God for those things I used to hate. I used think selfishness could only be selfish. It can also be unselfish. There's negative and positive in both. I have used unselfishness to my own benefit in a very selfish way. Selfishness has proved very beneficial to bring me back to that which is there. You know, there's good and bad in both, and I don't really see them as separate anymore. People always say, well, there is evil. What about the devil? My God, who's brought more people to God? Look at the great trick they played on him, right? Virtue, resentment. Thank God for resentment. Now, I don't like it when it hurts somebody else, but it certainly keeps me humble and brings me back to God over and over and over. I guess if you've been around for a while and you're a 12-step practitioner, there's a couple questions you need to ask yourself. Have you really had an awakening as a result of the steps? Or have you just had a major awakening as the result of 1 through 8 and 3 quarters? Which would include some amends? Have you really finished eight? Did you really become willing to make amends to them all? And you can't really say you've become willing to make Amends to Them All when you haven't. You can say you had a major awakening as a result of one through nine and a half, but at least have the grace and dignity for other people to be honest with them about that. Tell them, hey I hadn't been through the steps but I'd love to share with you what's been shared with me and this is where I'm at. Don't leave some illusion about where you think they might think where you're at or that you've had a spiritual awakening as a result of the steps if you haven't another question if you've been around for a while and you work with others you have to ask yourself are you still accountable to someone like are you a sponsor without a sponsor the greatest teachers I've ever met still believe they're students who actually gets help more those of you that work with others in this room who gets helped more you or the person you're working with Who is really the student? I read a thing once where a great master was asked, who's awake and who's asleep? He said, I am. I'm awake to what I'm away from. I'm asleep to what? I'm sleep to what i'm asleep too. Compared to my students, I'm awakened. Compared to teachers, I sleep. I'm both. One of the great things they do in psychiatry from what I know is that psychiatrists have to have a psychiatrist. It's very healthy. Teachers who are no longer students become a teacher. Nothing left to learn. I've been studying with the Dalai Lama for the last five years and he takes teachings from many people. He's still a student, not just a teacher. So does accountability end at the 12th step or begin at the twelfth step? Having had... So the great promise of the circle is this. and there's three parts to the twelfth step. Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of the steps, recovery, we try to carry this message to alcoholics, unity, and practice these principles in all our affairs which is about being of service. I used to think the twelved step was only in the chapter working with others. That's just, I think everything up to the chapter working with other people is how to have a spiritual awakening as a result of those steps. I think the chapter working with others is how we carry the message to alcoholics and the rest of those chapters the wives, the employer, the family afterward and a vision for you is how We Practice These Principles in All Our Affairs it covers your affairs family husbands and wives work and a Vision for You in all your activities where you might be taken so I had this sponsor that I've always had and I love Don with all my heart. I had a Native American teacher. His life became very busy. We haven't seen each other for a few years. I love him very much. Then I had a Christian teacher who taught me about contemplation, connection to my emotional work, grief, trauma that I had never looked at. I still see him, Dr. Jim Finley on a regular basis we're friends too he ended the therapeutic relationship which good therapists do most therapists all you've done is buy a good friend and they'll never let you go and they will be one of those that point you to them and it will be a long, tedious, painful process because they are hooked up they are invested in you staying sick in some way I heard a great story about that there's a lot of people that are invested in us staying sick and in delusion and it's a story about a guy who arrives in a new neighborhood and he goes to the local bar and as he's walking in the bar there's this guy there's some guy walking out drunk who gets in an invisible car starts an imaginary engine and drives off this is about people that want to keep you in the lie in the delusion next day he arrives at the bar guy stumbles out gets in the imaginary car gets an invisible car starts an imaginary engine drives off. Finally and this could be a bower or an AA meeting in the neighborhood because you know they're both the same nowadays most places and he's told to shut up take the cotton out of his ears and put it in his mouth and don't ask anything you know why people tell you that because they don't have any answers they're just dumbfounded as to how they're sober they don'T know how it works they'll tell you I DON'T KNOW HOW IT WORKS YOU'RE OF NO USE TO ANYBODY if you don't know how it works. We're supposed to. It's our responsibility. This is how it looks. Next day, he arrives at the AA meeting. He can't say anything. He's told to shut up. The guy's stumbling out of the meeting just before it starts. Gets an invisible car, starts an imaginary engine, drives off. Finally, he gets up enough nerve to ask the bartender or the leader of the meet. It doesn't matter. They're the same nowadays. He asks the leader the meeting, who's that guy? He says, oh, he's here every day. He stays just before the meeting. He'll hang out in the club and he'll leave just before the meeting, he stumbles out, gets an invisible car, starts an engine, drives off. He'll drive around all night and come back tomorrow and do the same thing. Finally, the guy gets up enough nerve to say to the guy, why don't you tell him the truth? He said, tell him the truth. He pays us $500 a month to keep that car clean. And I got it. I got it. And I've been guilty of that too. let me read one more thing. The time had come for the student to leave his teacher and go out and share what he had been given. Although they stayed close as he was ready to leave this first time and seeing that their work together has just begun, he was about to depart. the teacher says there's one particular very special very profound thing that i haven't shared with you yet matter of fact i haven'T shared it with anyone he thought for a minute the teacher and he said but maybe it's too precious to give away just like that so you might as well go they embraced student walks off just as he got out of earshot the teacher yells out, come back, come back. Once more he greets his teacher whereupon the teacher turns his back on the student pulls down his pants reveals his buttocks covered with calluses from years and years of meditation on a rock and he says that's the message now just do it. Thanks so much for letting us be here. It's been great.